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Comments
And as Bob said, you drop AWD and suddenly it loses the Subaru DNA.
There is just as much two wheel drive in Subaru DNA as there is AWD.
I would be happy to see Subaru offer RWD and FWD in addition to it's AWD offerings.
Yes, Subaru offers a few—very few!—bottom-feeder FWD models in a few select markets.
Subaru started offering 4WD cars back in the early '70s. Since around 1996 or so, every Subaru sold in North America, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Africa, etc., have been AWD. Yes, I know in Japan and southeast Asia, they offer a FWD Impreza; and that the Justy is sold in Europe as FWD-only; and that their micro cars/trucks sold in Japan offer both FWD and AWD versions. Even so, 99% of Subarus sold in the world today are AWD. That's what the brand is known for. AWD. Period.
Bob
(nor did my 1967 BMW 1600)
Bob
Failure to expand beyond AWD may lead to the demise of Subaru.
Until recently Subaru was known only for it's gasoline engines. Now they offer diesel. Very nice to see that Subaru went beyond it's gasoline "DNA" to evolve a diesel engine.
I'm not saying Subaru should abandon their signature AWD, just that Subaru can sell more vehicles by offering non-AWD versions that are less expensive and more energy efficient.
In 1996 AWD was niche, now that niche has a heck of a lot of competition. AWD is not the exclusive club it once was.
In soda, Coke is the go-to brand; in jeans it Levis; and in AWD cars, it's Subaru. It's an image and marketing thing. If Subaru were to offer different types of drivetrains, they will lose that edge. What they now have is very special—and hard-earned. Start offering FWD or RWD, and that "specialness" disappears. They will become just another carmaker that offers AWD. Their marketing edge will be lost.
Bob
You could also say that the boxer design is what makes a Subaru special - yet how many owners or buyers (other than enthusiasts) even know what it is?
We have 3 subarus in the family. I love my 09 Outback, my wife loves her 07 Forester, and my son in college can't kill his 94 Legacy 2WD. I understand the benefits of AWD, but I would have appreciated the option of a choice when I was buying it. Then I would have weighed the additional cost and mpg penalty over the 26-28K annual miles. I know many people who won't even consider subaru because they tell me "they get crappy mileage", a poor assumption,IMO, that limits their choices.
http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=65422&IsPgd=0
You go Nick!
Bob
The Tercel was for a co-worker, who did end up buying it.
Another friend of mine owned a stripped 4 speed manual Civic with vinyl seats and no passenger side mirror, so it was only slightly less bad. He did hit 96mh in 3rd gear once, though. It was like riding with paisan or hutch, I nearly wet my pants.
I disagree 100%.
Subaru is not known for its gas engines. It's known for the boxer layout of those engines.
The diesel is a boxer, hence it continues the Subaru DNA.
Sorry but that's a terrible example, you basically proved our point! :P
PS I think Subie is more Dr. Pepper than Coke. ;-)
Without FWD and in-line engines sales have more than doubled.
You can't apply conventional thinking to an unconventional niche make.
And while there are more AWD offerings, there are many people moving out of 4WD and an AWD makes an easy transition.
Look how many Explorers were traded under C4C, and look how well Subaru did that month.
The Hondas and Toyotas and Nissans and Mazdas, in addition to several other manufacturers would simply swamp the marketplace with WAY more fuel efficient and slicker designs.
I am currently on my 4th Subaru and I consider the brand for its focus on AWD. Since their bread-and-butter comes from the design/manufacture/sales of AWD vehicles, they cannot afford to flub an AWD design, unlike other manufacturers where AWD is just a niche.
I bought my Tribeca, despite the fact that it has less space than a Highlander or Pilot or Mazda CX-9 and I was okay with what space it came with. The reason was due to the excellent AWD system of the Tribeca, that apportions a majority of the power to the rear wheels and drives with a rear-wheel-biased power split. The rest of the manufacturers plod on with front-wheel-biased part-time AWD systems that were essentially modifed out of full-time Front-wheel-drive designs, that I was least interested in.
In case of Honda, they did have a high-end AWD system that is similar to the VTD of the Tribeca but that was only available in the pricier Acura MDX and not in the pedestrian Honda Pilot.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Subaru has to start differentiating itself on more than just AWD. Soon, it won't be anything special.
Lots of conceptual stuff. I wonder what a production model would end up looking like? Send me the first one.
The AWD Fusion, Taurus, Venza, X-Type, Saab, SX4, Matrix, GTI, etc. never put any dents in Subaru's sales.
In reality it's most high-end luxury makes that are offering AWD, and by doing so it only draws more attention to Subaru's value.
Right now Ford offers AWD on everything but the Mustang and Focus. Cadillac offers it on everything but the XLR and DTS.
If Honda were to offer it, you'd see Subaru afraid. Was it you or Bob that said Subaru looks at the Crosstour as direct competition? If it were a bit prettier, Subaru would've been more concerned.
SH-AWD is expensive to produce, so I doubt they'll put it on the Accord.
Toyota owns part of Subaru, so they won't either.
I dunno, not sure the big volume makes will go after the AWD segment if they see it as a shrinking pie. Especially in price-sensitive mainstream segments.
They wouldn't have to put SH-AWD on the Accord. Real Time 4WD would be enough because you and I both know that the vast majority of the market really doesn't know the difference - nor do they care.
Honda is streamlining the lineupe, e.g. the manual is gone from the CR-V. I don't see them adding an AWD Accord.
Look at the price of a TL-S.
For example, my wife and I may have considered a Sienna van when replacing our Caravan had we been able to get the AWD option on a sub-$30K van. As it was, I didn't even mention it to her as a possibility.
We lost a ton of space going to the Forester, but we got a great car.
Bob
I don't know if the Crosstour is SH-AWD or Real Time 4WD. I would presume it is the latter as SH-AWD (or that marketing term) is supposed to be Acura only.
As for pricing - the TL-S is that expensive not only due to the SH-AWD but it's also Acura's halo model.
I'd be shocked as well because most manufacturers don't have to offer AWD across the board. Their vehicles sell without it. Subaru couldn't and I think we all agree on that.
Plus the Subie AWD systems are better than most offered out there.
And I think we beaten this horse to death too many times. I'm of the opinion that very few buyers even care that Subie's is better or different. All they care about is AWD - no matter who offers it or how it works.
Marketing. I'm pretty certain that Honda will be making Acuras AWD, across the board at some point. Doing that with the Accord would cut into Acura's pie.
Yeah, they certainly could do it, but I doubt they will.
Bob
A neo-SVX based off the the Hybrid Tourer Concept? Maybe, according to UK site AutoExpress.
BTW, I see a bit of Chevy (but in a good way) in the grille shown here.
Bob
Good point.
SH-AWD is expensive. Originally it had a carbon fiber driveshaft in the RL model, but to get it to the RD-X' price level they had to replace that with a steel unit.
So they're cutting costs even at the $30 grand price level.
Didn't they just announce a FWD RD-X?
Clearly Honda is struggling with the cost of that system.
Actually, we have no idea what the cost really is. For all we know, Honda might be making a huge profit on the SH-AWD.
You can a pretty good idea as the adder is $2000 on the RDX and that's the only item added.
At Acura prices, the customer is not as price-sensitive. The Accord buyer, especially 4 cylinder model, is looking at TCO and may back out. If they keep it V6-only there's two things to increase the TCO.
There are many ways to skin a cat and there are many engineering routes to get to the end result. In this particular application, Honda/Acura felt that they could get the same functionality, by employing steel, while not compromising anything else.....maybe add a bit of extra weight to the unit.
If I was a buyer of the vehicle, I personally would not care whether it contained carbon fiber or steel, as long as the unit functions as SH-AWD (with all its handling benefits) and not as the pedestrian front-wheel-drive based system that Honda employs in their Pilot/Ridgeline etc. Mitsubishi is supposed to have used some of the engineering principles in the Honda SH-AWD system, in their EVO X's active AWD system.
For Acura, it was a small problem.
For Honda, it would be a bigger problem.
Maybe they could switch to plastic driveshafts. Just kidding.
As for active differentials, they're becoming common. Mercedes, BMW, and Audi have them, as does the EVO, as you mentioned. Wonder if Subaru is working on one?
I hope they don't let it get to their heads and continue improving the cars.
Let's here it for Oz's Nick Senior. At least he knows what the Subaru brand is all about.
Bob
They should get off their butts and develop an AWD version for Subaru dealers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
We also learned that his (new design head) favorite Subaru design of the last decade is the same as ours: the 2005-'09 Legacy. He regards that as a clean design in need of bolder cues.
This sounds about perfect -- I find the last gen. Legacy clean and subtle, but too understated for a small brand like Subaru to get attention. The Tourer looks great so I hope this guy gets to follow thru w/his designs. It's bold in the right way.