Subaru Crew - Future Models II

bluesubie · July 2001

I went to an i-club mini-meet there once, but haven't raced. I would probably have to go up against a mid-80's Blazer with my OBS. :-)
Atco is SO far, it felt like I was driving to VA (Friday night after work).
I want to head back down there because it was a pretty good time. My wife actually enjoyed it too (except when the wind brought over the burn-out pit smoke). I'll keep an eye on the i-club (Tri-State Forum) when they go down there again. I'm getting the itch for another Pine Barrens excursion too.

Dennis

ateixeira · July 2001

Drag racing can be fun. Just bring ear plugs and stay up wind!

-juice

subaru_team · July 2001

STX = Brat

Patti

rsholland · July 2001

from the folks at Nissan: The '02, 260HP Maxima.

Bob

http://www.AutoWeek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=coverstory&loc_code=index&content_code=05296733

rsholland · July 2001

Thanks for the BRAT name conformation. As I'm sure you're aware, it had been rumored that the BRAT name might be resurrected. Now we can "officially" refer to it as the BRAT!

Bob

rsholland · July 2001

I just picked up the '02 Legacy and Outback brochures. As expected few surprises.

 There is also an Outback H-6 non-VDC sedan, with the Weatherband radio, in addition to the announced H-6 VDC sedan.

 All Legacy-based Outbacks are wearing Bridgestone Protenzas.

 The Legacy brochure showed a picture of an illuminated ignition key ring. I'm not sure if this is new to the Legacy for '02 or not? Nor am I certain the Outback models get this same feature? I know some of us have been complaining about Subarus not having this feature in the past. All Subarus should have it.

 Regatta Red replaces Winestone. It appears to be a cross between the old Rio Red and the Sedonia Red.

At a quick glance, that's all I could find that is new.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

Cooooolll...

Very clever. Ride the current nostalgia wave. There are too many "X" cars out there now anyway.

Now I'd love to hear from former BRAT owners, and ask what they'd like to see brought back. I know at least one that went off-road a lot.

Autoweek was funny in its review of the Maxima. They felt that Nissan didn't want them to like it much, instead putting the attention on the new Altima.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

Rumors have it being the Detroit Auto Show. Any conformation of this?

Bob

drew_ · July 2001

Edmunds' review of the new Maxima here:

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/46808/article.html

Note that HID lights are standard equipment across the board! I really hope that Subaru strongly considers adding them soon, since despite the NHTSA considering investigating them, manufacturers are adding them nonetheless. Even the new Altima will have them as an option.

Drew
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bluesubie · July 2001

Not Out-Brat, New Brat or BRAT II? ;-)

Do they do cars the way the do movies? During the making of they have a working title and sometimes change it (Fast & Furious FKA Redline, Men of Honor FKA Navy Diver).
The co-owner of Flemington Subaru has 2 BRAT's and won't give them up for anything.

"All Legacy-based Outbacks are wearing Bridgestone Protenzas"
They can't be RE92's, can they? Shh, we won't tell anyone they're made by ****stone.

Dennis

rsholland · July 2001

I agree, absolutely!

Bob

qbrozen · July 2001

hmmmm.... interesting. I'd be really surprised if, in the end, it came out with the brat nameplate. Primary reason being that the marketing "gurus" are going to surmise that "STX" is "catchy" and "appealing", especially alongside the WRX and (maybe) STi. Second, I think that putting brat on there will actually hurt sales. I believe its going to dredge up too many bad memories and images in most peoples' minds (personally, I don't know of a single person that thought the BRAT was a good car). Of course, I'm not saying Patti is wrong - I'm just making an observation.

Juice - yeah, I thought that article was rather strange. Seems like Nissan wants to push its Maxima buyers to the Infinity and move everyone else into an Altima. If they WANT to reduce Maxima sales, why not just eliminate it altogether and FORCE buyers into the Infinity?

rsholland · July 2001

Actually, I think the BRAT name is very catchyand certainly more memorable than ST-X. I think it's an excellent choice. I was hoping they would do this.

I'm a very strong believer in using "history" as a marketing tool, unless of course, it's memory you want to forget. I think most people have fond memorys of the old and somewhat strange BRAT. I know I do.

Bob

kens · July 2001

I read the Autoweek review of the new Maxima last night. I recall them saying that the 6-speed tranny was nice but probably not a necessity given the broad torque band of the V6.

I'm happy to hear that SOA decided to get rid of the Wilderness tires on the OBs even if they're Bridgestones. I would imagine they would choose something other than the RE92's since that's what SOA puts on the "performance" models (ie. Impreza, GT).

Ken

rsholland · July 2001

The name suggests "git-'n-down-'n-dirty," and being just a bit "ornery," all of which is good. I just hope it lives up to the name.

Bob

armac13 · July 2001

I doubt that most non-Subaru people even remember the original BRAT. I never drove one, but I always liked the concept.

Ross

paisan · July 2001

Patti can bring a Brat to NC?

-mike

rsholland · July 2001

that Subaru will link the new BRAT with the first-generation BRAT in its marketing. To me, that's a "no-brainer."

Bob

bluesubie · July 2001

Probably won't be ready by then.
Although when it is ready, definately to the Pine Barrens. Ok Patti, I'll send an email suggesting you get the first pre-pro model.
Aren't there 3 concept ST-X's? Are they still driveable? I know at one auto show they had to push it back onto the truck.
Dennis

subaru_team · July 2001

Just so you know - it wasn't a guess - I confirmed it here at SOA today. I'm glad. The Brat was a great car that really carried a "fun" message. The Brat will be at the Detroit Auto Show in January, 2K2 and it should be in dealers by 10/02.

Hey - it's getting exciting here at Subaru again! Almost like the intro. to the WRX.

Dennis - no pre-pro Brats (I have to get used to typing that) here at headquarters. But - maybe they could find me one???

Patti

qbrozen · July 2001

well, if its confirmed, then its confirmed, right? I was interested in it, and, i know this will get me some flak, but the name will most likely keep me away from it. Probably not for any reason other than the fact that my friends and family would criticize me to no end for owning a "Brat".

rsholland · July 2001

the BRAT name will be thought of much in the same way as the new BEETLE and the new MINIall very positive, in a "warm-'n-fuzzy" kind of way.

Way to go Subaru!

Bob

barresa62 · July 2001

Most folks I talk to in the NW have fond memories of the Brat! Way to go Subaru!

Stephen

qbrozen · July 2001

The beetle and the MINI have WAY more history than the Brat. They have more history than all of Subaru, for that matter. Its a different story with those.

Just for knowledge, can somebody state the production years of the Brat. I'd also like to know about how many were sold.

Oh. never mind. I found it. in case anyone else wants to read a little about the history.
http://vintagecars.about.com/library/weekly/aa030301a.htm

I can't believe it was here for 10 years. I would never have guessed it - especially considering that I haven't seen one on the road since I was a teenager (that would be almost a decade ago). Doesn't say much to me in terms of reliability and/or longevity. Just my .02

ateixeira · July 2001

Drew: I like the Maxima's new headlight design, but the taillights were just beaten with the ugly stick. Why can't Nissan get styling right? The current Altima is ugly, and the Sentra looks droopy.

OK, the new Altima is a huge improvement.

Subaru should offer HIDs only if they cost $500 or less, unless they are a stand-alone option.

Nostalgia works. The New Beetle was a huge hit. The T-bird in the Needless Markup catalog sold out in record time, despite delivery coming AFTER some dealers get them. The Mini is already a cult car and won awards (Most Fun - Best of the Best from Autoweek) before they even drove one!

So BRAT will work. Folks I know remember it fondly. We'll still be your friends, Rob. ;-)

Do RE92s even come in 225/60R16 sizes? Just checked - and no, they don't. Going to GT sized tires will kill ground clearance, so they won't do that. In that same size, the choices are:

RE730: Z rated summer tire. Not on an Outback.
RE940: Z rated all-season. Nice, but doubtful.
RE950: H rated all-season.

Bingo, we have a winner. I bet 2002 Outbacks will come with RE950 tires in the same size as now.

-juice

ateixeira · July 2001

I saw two of them last week. And one was a first generation model, probably 20 years old and still going.

Hmm, 8.9" of ground clearance, adjustable suspension height, 2200+ lbs payload, and pricing well below its rivals? Sounds like a winning formula.

You gotta remember, these are different times. AWD/4WD is in, trendy even. Plus, this BRAT will seat 5.

-juice

bluesubie · July 2001

Rob,
If you have a questions about the new BRAT's reliability, just check the Legacy. I see them semi-regularly here in NJ.

Dennis

bluesubie · July 2001

The ST-X only seats 4. Patti???

Dennis

ateixeira · July 2001

Show cars tend to have fancy center consoles in the back. Seating for 5 would be more practical.

-juice

bluesubie · July 2001

I guess that's so it won't step on the new Forester's toes. I need one for August though. :-)
Dennis

kens · July 2001

juice,

Sometimes OE tires are not the same as those sold by tire manufacturers on the aftermarket. They may have the same model name, but the tread patterns can be slighlty different. Take the Yokohama Geolandar H/T for the Forester S, for example. They are quite different from the mainstream Geolandar H/Ts -- different tread pattern and speed rating.

Ken

ateixeira · July 2001

True, true. But ya think they'd design an RE92 sized specifically for the Outback when a tire is available off the shelf?

-juice

paisan · July 2001

The BRAT was never AWD. They only were FWD with 4WD part time. I believe they stopped production before the XT6/XT came out with AWD. Side note, I ran faster than a WRX with Kuhmo 712s on it and a stick at the auto-x in Rome last weekend

The XT6 was a blast in the mountains. Even lost a Transam that I passed on the backroads

Of course the 10mph right turn I took at 25-30mph helped me to put him way behind me

I think I need to get some sway bars and a strut brace for the XT6 now.

-mike

rsholland · July 2001

The '02 Outback brochure states the following:

Outback Sport: 6.3" (down from 6.5" last year)

Outback: 7.3"

Outback H-6: 7.9"

I didn't realize the H-6 had more ground clearance than the H-4. Must be the engine design. Everything else appears to be the same.

Bob

tincup47 · July 2001

Are nice, but expensive to replace. For Example on a 98 Lexus GS model, non-HID lamp assy is 357.04 but HID is 1061.90. Regardless of what the option costs, replacements will be very expensive.

paisan · July 2001

They should rarely need replacement and even if they do, insurance will pick up the tab!

-mike

tincup47 · July 2001

So Subaru insurance rates will go up, either way you pay.

rsholland · July 2001

What about HID bulbs? How expensive, and how long do they last?

Bob

drew_ · July 2001

When MB started offering HID lights for the M-class in 1999, my annual insurance rate did not go up. I'd be willing to pay a bit more for the extra 250% increase in illumination. I doubt that they'd cost only $500 though. That's far too little. As long as its below $700, I think people would be willing to pay. The Xenon headlamp option on all MB vehicles is $850. That includes auto leveling as well as heated headlamp washers.

HID bulbs will last for practically the lifetime of the vehicle. Remember that there is no filament to break at all, so it's also much more suitable for rough road use. If for some reason the bulb does malfunction, replacements are typically around $100+. However, because of the fact that they're supposed to last for practically the lifetme of the vehicle, most manufactuers will replace them under warranty. There are only two types of HID bulbs. DSR and DS2. One is for reflector based HID lights, and the other is for projector based HID lights. The bulbs for the projector based systems are slightly brighter (150-200 lumens) and slightly white. Nonethesless, even the reflector based systems, such as in the Acura TL and the Infinit I30, are more than twice as bright as halogen lamps. Plus, they consume only 35 watts each. The Euro and Japanese Impreza uses projector HID lamps.

Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

tincup47 · July 2001

For Lexus SC430 an HID bulb costs 304.58 On the GS model it is 303.23. Checking Acura and Infiniti, prices are comparable

rsholland · July 2001

I can see why Subaru has been slow to offer HID bulbs to the American public. I had no idea they were that expensive.

Bob

paisan · July 2001

But as they become more main-stream the price will go down. I used to like them a lot, but now, I feel if you want to spend $ on lights, just get aftermarket ones. No need to raise the price on all the cars for the few of us who crave the light!

-mike

tincup47 · July 2001

I agree, but people are already complaining tha Subarus are getting too expensive. The more luxury options will move them closer to MB territory. Also a replacement HID lamp is a smaller percentage of total value on an MB than it is on a Subaru. HID lamps would raise the number of total losses on a sub 30,000 vehicle than it would on 40,000 vehicle. Hence higher insurance rates.

barresa62 · July 2001

The 02'OB Sport is only 2/10ths of an inch higher than my WRX wagon (6.1"). Who knew?

Stephen

ateixeira · July 2001

Bob: those are stated ground clearance numbers. My Forester is supposed to have 7.5", but it was closer to 6.8" at the front cross member (with stock tires). And it's structural, so you could high-center there.

I'd have to measure to believe that the H6 has more clearance than the Forester.

Bingo, paisan, I could not have said it better myself. For enthusiasts like us, it's OK to look to the aftermarket to fill a void like the HIDs.

Stephen: remember that the OBS has the same wheels and tires as the WRX wagon. So it's purely the spring height. In the Outback, it's slightly taller springs and bigger tires.

In fact, I wonder what size Potenzas they'll use - it would definitely affect ground clearance.

-juice

kens · July 2001

juice -- Yeah, I get your drift. Maybe, maybe not. Remember though, the Geolandar H/Ts were specifically designed for the Forester even though there were plenty of other choices. ;-)

Ken

kens · July 2001

The only problem with aftermarket HIDs is that none are street-legal. What if Subaru made them a DIY option?

Ken

rsholland · July 2001

I'm sure Subaru measures their ground clearance in a consistent manner, from model to model. Yeah, I was surprised to see those numbers too.

Bob

rsholland · July 2001

I just got in the mail today a brochure on the new RSX from a local Acura dealer. It has some interesting features for a vehicle in the $20 - $25K range:

 Automatic climate control on all models standard.

 Driver's auto down & up window.

 The 6-speed's 1st gear ratio is the same as the 5-speed manual model.

 The 6-speed's 5th and 6th gear ratios are the same as the 5-speed model's 4th and 5th gear ratios.

 Both the 6-speed and the 5-speed manuals share the same final drive ratio.

 the 6-speed has closer 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear ratios.

 Available 5-speed man-u-matic on base model.

The wheelbase is 101.2", which is a bit longer than the new Impreza.

 Engine has a timing chain, and not a timing belt.

Bob

kens · July 2001

I must say, the new RSX looks quite nice. I just read up on it in my recent issue of C&D.

Ken

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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