Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland · July 2001

with a 6.6L DuraMax diesel.

Bob

subearu · July 2001

paisan · July 2001

Now Bob and Juice are on my wavelength! NEED MORE TORQUEY POWER!

-mike

qbrozen · July 2001

Yes, its on every car, I got that. But, that was my point. If every car went up $11 MSRP (and, therefore, $11 invoice), we as the buyers aren't really going to care too much (I probably wouldn't even notice). That $11 on every vehicle adds up to the fine they have to pay. Problem solved.

kens · July 2001

juice,

It can also be possible that Subaru secures a more upscale image by the time the B4 rolls into the US. Remember, not too long ago, VW was viewed also as an economy car manufacturer, but today, their flagship Passat GLX 4-Motion model is priced in the low 30K range. Later this year, they're even going even further upscale by offering a W8 engine.

Now, I'm personally hoping that doesn't happen to Subarus for my own wallet's sake, but it certainly isn't an impossibility.

Ken

francophile · July 2001

Subaru does not have to be postitioned "upscale" to introduce the B4 here. They simply have to learn from the H6 VDC. The combination of H6, VDC, and B4 *is* an "upscale" move for Subaru, but they need to keep it appearing as though it is "up" but not TOO "up".

1) (with and exclamation point): It's gotta be a hotrod. This will no doubt translate, in the minds of the excellent Subaru engineers, to upgraded brakes and suspension as well as the hot motor. I think this is as it should be, and I believe I am in a position to have an informed opinion. I wish my GT suspension and brakes were a notch better and I'm only flogging 165 HP.

2) Bang for the buck. Price is not as important as perceived value; that is the lesson of the WRX as welll as the VDC. Do not try to make it look like a direct competitor for S4, and at the same time ignore the fact that it will probably cost more than an A4 - fall between them; offer an S4-beater at a $10K lower price and reap the rewards.

3) Don't overload it with doodads; let the buyer decide if they want the leather-wrapped, automatic, heated-mirror coffee stirrer as an option, but give the enthusiast the good value they expect from Subaru.

4) Offer it in dark blue with a beige interior :-)

Cheers,
-wdb

paisan · July 2001

Everyone keeps comparing subaru to VW. But you can't do that. The perception is that the VW is a cheaper way to get an Audi. There is no luxury version of the subaru line. I belive that that is why the VWs are selling at such high prices along with an excellent ad campaign.

-mike

kens · July 2001

Mike,

I don't necessarily think that people by VWs to get cheaper Audi. The only model that really overlaps is the Passat. All the other models target different buyers.

The ads are great, but I think it's the styling, features and perceived quality that sells them. VW has built up a very consistent brand image, look and feel across all their models.

Sorry, didn't mean to go too far OT.

Ken

paisan · July 2001

Every single VW owner I know (and I know quite a few) all said "I wanted an audi, but couldn't afford it, so I bought this Jetta or Passat instead". About the only people I know with VWs that didn't buy them cause they were Audi knockoffs were my 2 buddies with '67, '70, '74 bugs, and a chick who bought a new beetle cause it was "cute" The models don't have to overlap at all for people to percieve them to be of a higher quality than they actually are. Why would people flock to a car manufacturer that only offers a 2/20K or something other crazy low warranty? Unless they percieved it to be a good quality car, like an Audi. (not that I agree with that statement, but you get the picture)

-mike

drew_ · July 2001

Beginning from MY2002, VW now offers a 4 year, 50K mile bumper-to-bumper warranty.

Drew
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paisan · July 2001

tis about time they offered a decent BtoB!

-mike

kens · July 2001

Mike,

I get your drift, but you can add me to the list of people who bought a VW not because they wanted an Audi. We bought our 00 Jetta GLS VR6 because we felt it had the best features for a vehicle in it's class. We did think the 2/24 B2B warranty was short, but we liked the 10/100 powertrain warranty.

I can understand people who would cross shop a Passat with an A4 or even an A6, but I think there's quite a gap between those models and the Jetta.

Ken

paisan · July 2001

I agree with you on the 10/100K. I think though most average car buyers are *not* the people on here. They buy any little tid bit someone at a watercooler says like "oh yeah VWs are the same as Audis" I find this particularly in the "I hate SUVs, why do you like them" topic. The pool of people who are active on Edmunds know/research autos more than others and actually use them as intended whereas we aren't a good representation of the general buying public.

-mike

pattim3 · July 2001

FYI - We (SOA) ONLY work with Edmunds at this time. Some folks at the i-club did go to the Arizona test, but they were part of a focus group not related to i-club.

SOA does not "leak" information. They are very concerned about leaking information and very close mouthed about things. Occasionally, ideas and long term plans are discussed and shared with employees but they are goals, not confirmed action steps. These goals are really subject to a lot of change, so they don't want incorrect advance information out there. While STI is in the conversational stages, nothing is signed yet so it can't be looked at as a given.

If someone post information and says it is from a reliable source, it is often someone who spoke to "someone" who "heard" something and they are sharing it as fact. If it is factual, I can promise you that you will get the information here.

I do not post ideas and goals that are bandied about because it would be unfair when it is not confirmed and it can lead to dissappointment.

Because SOA is in a serious growth mode, a lot of things are being discussed, but what can be produced with other corporate directives can be majorly different than what is currently being discussed. I have seen this happen often in my 19 years with the company.

I hope this helps.

Patti

ateixeira · July 2001

I mentioned a Vee because in a pinch, Subaru would have to go to GM for those blocks. But I'll take an H8 any day!

Rob: thing is, you wouldn't mind paying $11 to get an STi, but that means all the other owners that do not get any more power have to pay more for nothing. Given Subaru hasn't really increased prices lately (except for redesigns), they would just and up having to eat into their own profits.

I think VW has had more success moving upscale than Subaru. Perhaps because the Passat used an Audi platform, and because it's German, like BMW and Mercedes-Benz (for now let's ignore where they are made). They also have infinitely more resources. Probably all three reasons.

But Subaru shouldn't try to move upscale. It'll be 1994 all over again, when they tried to attack Honda and Toyota, except this time it would be against an even better funded Lexus and Acura. You think they should? Not me.

Stay niche-oriented. Continue the tie-ins with the mountain biking and ski/snow board folks, and toss in performance at a value price. Be a poor man's Audi (with better reliability), and you'll have proud, loyal owners.

Remember, even though they're selling 170k units per year, that's not nearly what they were doing in their hay day. You really think a former Loyale owners wants to spend $35 grand on their next Subie?

-juice

locke2c · July 2001

quote: Some folks at the i-club did go to the Arizona test, but they were part of a focus group not related to i-club.

The SIPP members all are owners/co-owners of large Subaru (Impreza, honestly) enthusiast sites. Most of them are active on the iClub.

See them here: http://www.imprezawrx.com/SIPP/

Search the iClub General Forum archive for SIPP and you'll find some pictures and descriptions of what they've done.

-Colin

paisan · July 2001

Don't get me started on SIPP! Am I sore? Yep.

-mike

locke2c · July 2001

I wasn't aware you had a large enthusiast website and were overlooked by the marketing folks at SOA responsible for creating SIPP. :-P

Otherwise, stow the envy and be glad they are listening to people that might have SOME of the same ideas you do. (No one is like you paisan, don't worry.) Would it be nice to be in SIPP? Maybe, but I'd rather it existed without me than it not exist at all.

-Colin

ateixeira · July 2001

I still prefer the FWFJ (*) program, yet to be launched.

-juice

* Free WRX for juice

bluesubie · July 2001

Patti - Excellent post! You should post it on the i-club.

SIPP - paisan, I guess you should've started a Subaru site and maybe you would've been in. Kevin Thomas should've been a part of that as well. Back in late '96 early '97, his was one of only a couple of Subaru Performance fan sites. I guess "back in the day" doesn't count.
Maybe one day we'll have an Edmunds focus group.

Dennis

ateixeira · July 2001

Nope, sorry, Patti's ours. They can't have her.

;-)

We get 3 years roadside assistance, 5/60 powertrain warranty, 3/36 bumper to bumper, and unlimited Patti assistance.

-juice

paisan · July 2001

Just get annoyed at manufacturers for their sometimes non-logical ways they collect data about customers/reward customers. At least SOA isn't sueing website owners like Honda. And heck I could run a better ad campaign than Isuzu has done in the past 5 years.

-mike

qbrozen · July 2001

Patti - yes, nice post. Its good to have that cleared up.

Juice - I really don't think it would bother me, even if I was buying a base Impreza, to see a sticker of $11 more. I think I can dig that up from under my couch cushions.

What's wrong with adding an upscale model or 2 to the lineup? Its not like the whole company has to change. They don't need to start servicing my car with white gloves or providing me with gourmet coffee and a leather chair while I wait. But, a $35K car that provided great power, comfort, and convenience would be a nice addition to the lineup. I, for one, would LOVE to see a cushy, leather-clad, turbo-charged, AWD, reliable, Lincoln LS alternative. And, if they ONLY wanted to bring back old customers, they would never get bigger than they are now. Of course, as always, the trick is to keep the current customers and keep bringing in new ones. You can't do that unless you hit the right buttons that will get them into the showrooms.

paisan · July 2001

For at least 3 or 5 years I've been saying I want a subaru A8/S8. Like a 4.0l H6 turbo or something. That is wider, longer etc. than the current legacy. But it seems that SOA can't/won't take the plunge!

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

It's not an $11 increase in each sticker price - Subaru wouldn't do that. They usually go in $100 increments. So either the price would be enough to bother most buyers, or Subaru would lose 2 million in profits.

That's why specialty cars cost so much. The STi will cost $30 grand or more.

But for sure, have no doubt, the WRX brought in many, MANY more new buyers to Subaru than the VDC did. Performance beat luxury 10 to 1 in that regard.

-juice

paisan · July 2001

Juice, don't let the WRX go to your head. I personally feel it was the price/performance that got the buyers in. The VDC price/performance compared to others in the same class was about par to a slight advantage. The WRX hands down beat anything else on the market within $10K range. There were/are no alternatives to the WRX that is why it's sales soared, and they've levelled off from what I hear.

-mike

subearu · July 2001

something in a full-size model? Maybe Subaru will tap into GM for a full-size frame. Subaru would (of course) supply the engine & drivetrain. Of course, something that size would need a H6, no less.

I think since we haven't seen/heard of it so far, that they probably aren't worried about that type of vehicle.

Maybe Subaru should just ride on the 'performance' niche. AWD and 'hot' or torquey H4 & H6's. Forget all of the high luxury stuff and go for 'bang for the buck'.

Anyone else laugh at Saturn's L-series commercials? They bill it as a 'performance' vehicle. Anything to sell 'em I guess.

-Brian

rsholland · July 2001

I'm glad to hear about their new warranty for 2002. That's excellent. It's the first time for a non-luxury brand to offer anything over 36/36 that I'm aware of. I would love to see Subaru do the same.

Juice-
I think VW has had better success moving upscale than Subaru because they "look" upscale. I think VW now makes some of the best looking vehicles regardless of price. They just look "rich," even the entry-level models.

Bob

paisan · July 2001

Isuzu has had 3/50K for a long time BtoB (at least '96->present) and 10/120K on the powertrain since '00.

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

C'mon, paisan, you said it yourself - you feel that WRX owners are somewhat different and new, and maybe Subaru owners aren't as quirky as before.

The VDC may get Outback owners to move up, but I'm sure most owners are repeat buyers that likely would have bought an Outback Limited anyway.

WRX is making conquest sales, a gem in the auto industry. I think that the WRX was a far bigger marketing success.

Bob: I think Hyundai has a longer B2B, 5/60 IIRC?

It's not only the look. Passat use an Audi platform. Look at the door jambs. Nice, solid hinges. The guy at the DC Auto Show stood on the door and it held up his weight (he was paisan-sized, too).

Though I could have done without the kid-with-braces look all that new chrome has given it.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

Also, one of the Korean brands (Hundyai?) has an excellent warranty too.

ateixeira · July 2001

Kia now too.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

Subaru offer a "GT Package" on the WRX. This would be marketed much as Subaru markets the "Premium Package" on the Forester S.

The "GT Package" would consist of a moonroof, heated seats, heated outside mirrors, and the windshield deicer. That's it, nothing else. It would be an option, so for those not interested, they don't have to buy it.

How 'bout it Subaru?

Bob

paisan · July 2001

Both have good BTB warranties (50K IIRC).

The WRX is bringing in more mainstream people but not for it's performance, but because of it's price. Think of it this way. If subaru decided it wanted to make an S4 clone and say price it $2K cheaper, don't you think people would be buying the Audi? (not us die hards, but the general public) There is no other vehicles with the performance of the WRX in it's price range, that is why it's selling like hotcakes. Closest cars are the RSX (no awd), Celica (no awd, much less power), focus?, neon? all no awd, no turbo, no power. Subaru did a good job of finding another niche market. But it's only a matter of time before the others catch on (EVO, Focus SVT?, etc.) I just hope that the B4 can come in cheap enough to bring in people to buy it and they don't price themselves out of the market *AGAIN*

-mike

paisan · July 2001

Is not an option on the WRX. The roof is integral to it's rigitidy of the chassis.
That's directly from FHI engineers.

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

I like the GT package idea, so long as it's optional. There are a few Audi intenders that shy away from the boy-racer feel of the WRX. Maybe a few luxury goodies would win them over.

If the price is close, yes, people would buy the S4. But the S4 is produced in relatively tiny numbers. It's closer to what an STi would be, or an M3, Viggen, AMG, etc.

-juice

kate5000 · July 2001

I'd love to see Subaru to offer 3/50 or even better 4/50 warranty and 10/100 powertrain, that would conquest a lot of sales

rsholland · July 2001

One of the reasons I've stayed away from VW, was their lousy 24/24 warranty. That tells me, as a customer, that VW doesn't have much confidence in their own product. If they don't, neither do I.

Long warranties are an excellent selling tool.

Bob

jimmyp1 · July 2001

go to events and see my message.

jim

FrankMc · July 2001

It looks like in an energy conservation move, the politicans are talking about changing the CAFE. I heard the Washington Bureau chief of the Wall Street Journal this morning say that the car companies have the technology to do it if they wanted to, it is merely a matter of making them "want to". The way it looks, at the moment, is to leave the car standard alone and raise the light truck standard from 20.7 to a number much closer to the 27.5 auto standard...

Frank

ateixeira · July 2001

Then again, neither of you bought Hyundais.

It's a step in the right direction, but to me it has to be accompanied by real long-term results. I don't want to have to go to the dealer to fix something every 6 weeks, even if it is free.

-juice

PS Honda now had the industry's worst warranty - still only 3/36

rsholland · July 2001

I didn't buy a Hyundai for a number reasons, none of which an excellent warranty could reverse.

A 48/48 warranty vs. a 36/36 warranty could be a deal maker/breaker with some people who are having a tough time deciding between brands.

Bob

drew_ · July 2001

Here in Canada, our Hyundais don't get the 10 year warranty. It's clearly just to attract sales in a big market like in the US.

Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards

ateixeira · July 2001

We both liked the Sante Fe we saw at Philly, remember? For the price, anyway.

I agree it would be nice, but keep in mind Subaru's warranty is about average. Better than Honda's by far.

-juice

qbrozen · July 2001

That's pretty funny, I sat in that one, too. I liked the looks and all, but I found that I didn't fit comfortably in it. Its a shame.

paisan · July 2001

for me. ALthough my dad just bought my uncle's sonata and it's a decent car. My best friend's dad bought 2 '92 excels for $10K total, they lasted 100K miles each and then died. I think the Hyundai are great cars for the $ and worth it as a commuter beater car. Beyond that, they aren't very good, but use and throw away works for me.

-mike

ateixeira · July 2001

Think of the Santa Fe as a Sonata wagon (more value than performance), and you'll find it OK.

-juice

barresa62 · July 2001

There is a pic on the SOJ website showing a moonroof on a WRX. It is a small opening and may just flip up not slide back. Additionally, Subaru sells the WRX in Canada w/heated seats and mirrors std. Why in the h_ll SOA did not at least include this as an option in the stateside models is a great mystery, and frankly, a big oops! Stupid is being kind! (I know, how do I really feel??). I guarantee that our Seattle weather is just as miserable as Vancouver B.C.'s in the winter.

Stephen

ateixeira · July 2001

Hope that means they will offer those features here soon. I would want seat heaters, and a moonroof is a must-have option for me.

-juice

paisan · July 2001

On a wrx you can put one in, but according to FHI it would be a tiny slit only a few inches big because it would need to reside in front of the beam.

-mike

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