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More appropriate, perhaps, would be the return of the dual-range manual to the United States. From talking to folks in Australia and the Netherlands, it is obvious that a) it's still available almost everywhere EXCEPT the United States, and b) it's available on both right-hand-drive and left-hand-drive Subarus (Australians drive on the opposite side of the road from the Dutch). It is especially astounding that their pseudo-SUV, the Forester, doesn't have the dual-range manual gearbox. If it'd had one, I would have probably bought the manual transmission Forester rather than the automatic.
And I want my real aluminum skidplate instead of that plastic junk! (Oh well... sigh).
Oh -- anybody who says a Forester is good off-road is smoking something. A Forester can barely handle poorly-maintained forest service roads. Taking it into real off-road areas means you'll be missing large chunks off your front bumper and your front tow hooks will be ground to a nub -- its approach angles suck. Not to mention possible damage to your oil pan because of having no real skid plate. The Forester does what I want it to do (go over those forest service roads to get to the trailheads), but I wouldn't expect anything more from it -- I'm already missing some chunks from my front bumper cover and have a gouge in one of my front tow hooks just from hitting a few washouts in the road.
-E
*BULL*. I have *NEVER* seen one of those behemoths being driven by a man here in the Phoenix area -- they're invariably driven by bleach blonds wearing designer dresses, or by housewives with a dozen kids strapped into the back. Maybe the man's name is on the title. But he sure isn't driving this thing. Same thing with the Chevy Suburbans. It is very rare that I see a man driving a Suburban, and if I do, it's generally some kind of contractor who uses it as sort of a fancy pickup truck (there's usually ladders strapped atop the roof).
I'll point out two dangers with statistics (that I learned in a class on educational statistics as part of a M.Ed. program). The first danger is that what you're measuring doesn't measure what you think you're measuring. For example, a multiple-choice "writing test" is an oxymoron, lots of kids get good scores on such tests and can't write a coherent paragraph if Regis was offering them a million dollars to do it. The second danger is that you've chosen an inappropriate target population to measure -- e.g., measuring middle class suburban kids, then making sweeping generalizations to all kids based upon that limited sample. I think that Auto Pacific is committing fallacy #1 (the "statistics that don't measure what they say they're measuring" one, which might be true if the husband's name is on the title rather than the housewive's), and I suspect that Subaru's marketing department (all 3 people?) is committing fallacy #2 -- planning Subaru's future based upon what current Subaru owners think, rather than trying to grow the brand beyond a hardy bunch of tech-heads and Saab-withdrawal fanatics. In particular, too many of their decisions seem to be being made based on input from the tech-heads. Which is good, in itself -- Subaru needs those innovations in order to stand out from the competition. But tech-heads aren't going to tell Subaru how to reach larger markets, because larger markets don't interest the tech-heads.
-E
low-end torque of a Subaru.
You should qualify that statement a bit-- it's a waste for a turbocharged Subaru. The naturally aspirated ones have a decently fat torque curve but could still use the closer gear ratios the 6spd offers.
I especially lust for one, since I've gone down the road of naturally aspirated modifications. (mild head porting, cams, intake, exhaust-- soon headers.) Mainly the 40.5% drop between 1st and 2nd is something I would like to improve, but the WRX STi six speed also offers a true decending ratio change, unlike the current US 5spd that has a low 5th gear-- no doubt for highway fuel economy.
I've compiled a brief list of modern Impreza transmissions, comparing the new Japanese domestic models to the 99-01 2.5RS 5spd gearbox.
-Colin
With the 3.90:1 axle ratio, the RPM in 6th gear is approximately the same as a 2.5RS in 5th. HMM!
Darlene, definitely forward this one on to your product planners. Bring the six speed here, attached to turbocharged four cylinders and the new 3.0L H6.
-Colin
Kate, I agree w/juice, in DC I see more female Forester drivers than male. Interesting.
WDB, thanks for the reminder to stay on topic.
Eric, re: <259</A>> could the plastic shroud reduce NVH (due to underbody aerodynamics)? It's definitely got a funky shape (or maybe I'm thinking of the tabs under the rear floor pan (in a wagon), forward of the bumper). I don't think it was intended to protect the engine from anything except perhaps dirt. As you said, it's no skidplate. Also, I don't think the shroud extends sufficiently rearward to protect the CV boots (now that would be useful!).
Colin, I think you mean Patti of SoA, not Darlene of QSubaru.
..Mike
..Mike
Thanks in advance.
- Ed
Also, as a marketing tool, a 6-speed makes more sense than a 5-speed. All manufacturers are having a tough time selling 5-speeds these days, at least here in the States. Go to any dealer, and try to find a 5-speed in the vehicle you want. It can be done, but it may be difficult to find. 6-speeds have a special "aura" about them, and are much more desirable and easier to sell to a performance-oriented customer.
For the average customer, most are going to opt for automatics. It's the performance-oriented customer who wants a manual. A 6-speed for that kind of customer would be, IMHO, a much easier sell.
I do agree that a 6-speed on some vehicles seem superfluous, such as a Viper with an huge 8.0L engine.
Bob
..Mike
..Mike
Did any of you look at the gearbox link I provided? ;-)
-Colin
I've read several overseas reports on the new WRX, and I remember two reports (one from Japan, the other from the UK) specificly wished that the WRX had a 6th gear for relaxed highway use. I think this will be a bigger issue here in the USA, with our huge network of interstate highways -- much more so than overseas, where high-speed limited access highways are not as prevalent.
I do agree, that for the 2.5 engine - as it is currently tuned, a 6-speed may be overkill. It would still be fun though.
A 6-speed on the new H-6 would allow for sportier tuning of this engine. Also, I've driven two H-6 Outbacks, and they both seemed to have significantly more power up top, as opposed to down low. So, a 6-speed, even as it is currently tuned, would be, IMHO, not overkill.
Bob
My impression is that the Celica, and certainly the Honda S-2000, "need" 6-speed trannys, because of their narrow powerbands. On Subarus, a 6-speed would make an already great vehicle, even greater.
Colin - yes I did look at your link. Thanks for providing it. As you say, to provide a 6-speed overdrive, some gear ratios (or final drive ratio) would need to be revised.
Bob
Anyway... I think 6-speeds are considered somewhat "special," and more marketable. whereas 5-speeds are, for many folks, considered rather "ordinary," and less desirable.
Bob
The STi six speed is only 15.8% overdriven though, versus the RS 5spd's 22%.
-Colin
Anyway, for those wondering... the reason less than 1:1 is considered overdrive is because normally a gearbox serves to increase the numerical gear ratio, which decreases work done but increases the torque avaialable to do the work. Overdrive has fewer teeth on the input shaft than output, which of course decreases the numerical gear ratio and increases work.
Oversimplified-- gear ratio * axle ratio (ring & pinion) * tire radius = work done.
-Colin
If a 6-speed, or a dual-range tranny is "packaged" and "marketed" correctly... it will sell.
I agree, the Forester needs better approach and departure angles, as well as a dual range tranny, as well as a few other goodies to make it a good off-roader. That's where the "packaging" (and engineering) comes into play. That, combined with savvy marketing will do the trick.
Bob
Bob
In the gear dept, cars and bikes have much in common. Remember when your typical bike was a 10-speed? Now they routinely have 21-speeds while the top of the line have 24 speeds (I haven't checked lately...has anybody come out with a 27-speed yet?).
I think that in both cars and bikes, after a point, the additional gears are purely a marketing gimmick (I doubt there are very many bikers who use even half of their available gears). I suspect that if I had a 6-speed Forester, I'd skip 5th most of the time and use 6th to cruise down the hwy.
-Frank P.
I'd be surprised if you would ever see a 6-speed Forester, unless it were a ultra-high-performance model. I don't think you'll ever see a mass-market 6-speed. There just isn't an audience (market) for it.
If you look at all the vehicles with 6-speed transmissions, one thing is absolutely clear, there all ultra-high-performance-oriented and/or image vehicles: motorcycles (from crotch-rockets to tourers), S-2000, Miata, Celica, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc.
Bob
The 6 speed manual was designed after criticism of the 5 speed manual. MB trannies have never been known for their preciseness and smoothness. The 6 speed greatly improves on this. It is still not quite up to the level of a BMW manual tranny though.
But forget the 6 speed manual. MB is coming out with a sequential 6 speed tranny for their new C230 Kompressor coupe next year. I've been trying to find the picture that I saw all morning but haven't been able to. In any case, it's great! Looks exactly like the stick shift and the nice thing is that it works exactly like the WRC cars. Pull towards you to go to the next gear, and push away from you to go to the previous (lower) gear. I've been wanting this arrangement for a long time but Acura's Sportshift and VW's Tiptronic have been the opposite, because the engineers feel that people may be confused with the other arrangement.
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
Today's bicycles can be equipped with 10 cog cassettes. With a "triple crank" this equates to 30 "speeds"! I'm still somewhat old fashioned as my road bike has only 27!
Don
And yes, there is a much stronger argument to be made for 6-speeds, in both in manual and automatic format in Europe due to the much higher normal cruising speeds over there.
Bob
I look forward to that 6 speed sequential gearshift too. Let's just hope that it makes it to North America! We will most likely see it in the regular non-coupe C-class as well.
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
Don- So how many of those 27 gears do you actually use? The highest and lowest obviously but what how many of the other 25 ever see action?
-Frank P.
I still doubt we will see a dual range in the forester anytime soon in the US. Let's take a poll, of all the forester owners on here, who would honestly use their low range transfer case and who wouldn't?
(In my 4 years of owning a Rodeo and Trooper, I've put it in 4-low 2x out of 100s of times I've used 4wd Hi)
-mike
Bob
Bob
Regarding the dual range, if it doesn't lock the centre differential (like Mike's Trooper or Rodeo does), one will be able to use it anytime that more torque is desired. Good idea, IMHO, especially for towing. I do wonder about the added cost though. How about Subaru at least making it optional, like the Audi Allroad?
Since my ML has three open differentials, low range can be used at any time up to about 50mph/80kph. At that speed, revs are at 5000 rpms, even with the 5 speed auto tranny. Check this out:
http://4x4abc.com/ML320/tow.html
http://4x4abc.com/ML320/Tow_lowrange.html
http://4x4abc.com/ML320/tow_temp.html
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
-mike
The low range on Subarus are not a "true" low range, in that the gear reduction is very small. It's not at all like a traditional deep low range that you would get from most other 4x4s. The fact that it is a "marginal low" allows for other less off-road activities, such as towing, etc.
Graham & Gus, am I correct here? You guys have dual-range setups, I believe. How and where do you find the low range most useful?
It has never been offered on automatics, to the best of my knowledge.
As to costs? Subaru has been offering this feature for years on even their least expensive models.
Bob
Bob
Drew/aling
Edmunds.com Townhall host
Canada gets more cool stuff than the US, the XT6 there had a manually adjustable height control for the ride control when we just got an automatically adjusting model here.
-mike
On a totally different topic, in that picture of the otherwise nifty Mercedes shifter, did anyone else have a little trouble telling the difference between the "A" and the "R" lettering on the shifter knob? At first glance, I thought it had two "R"s on it (momentarily thought, 'well I know lower right has to be reverse, what the heck is the other R for; does the German word for "low-gear" start with an "R" ... ?'). A bit of less-than-great typography to my eyes.
That's the main reason I bought an automatic -- I did not want to burn my clutch if I wanted to tow a small pop-top trailer. Crawling along going up a steep uphill or pulling a trailer up a hill isn't very good for torque converters either (it generates a lot of heat), but at least short bursts of heat can be easily dissipated by the AT oil cooler, whereas smoked clutch lining stays smoked :-(. But if a dual range was available here in the U.S., I would probably have bought that instead.
-E
I am the proud owner of a Holden Commodore VL Sedan, fitted with a Nissan-Holden 3.0 litre in-line 6 cyl engine.
The vehicle is 14 years old and has turned over 306,500 odd kilometres (or 190,450 miles for my U.S.A. friends), the only major repairs have been 1 x waterpump - due to a leaking gland, 1 x crank angle sensor (water got in through a cracked boot) and an exchange head which cracked at 273,585 kms (169,997 miles), the vehicle will still reach 190+ kph (120mph) and lively at it too.
The motor is absolutely silent except for the injectors clicking away and the fan when it is engaged. I can stand a 50cent coin vertical on the rocker cover at idle speed and rev it out too 5,000rpm and the coin will remain vertical on the rocker cover, and it has done this from brand new in October 1986.
I have just completed a round trip of 10,500 kms (6,525 miles) cruising at 130kph (80mph)on the open/suburban roads for an average return of 10l/100km (28mpg), not too shabby for a car of it's age and mileage. Mind you, the boot was full of suitcases and golf clubs, the back seat was loaded with 50 litres of Port Wine and 20 bottles of mixed wines + odds and ends and my toolbox of 60kgs (130lbs)on the floor behind the drivers seat.
NOW, I have recently retired and I am in the market for a new car, my choice is the Subaru Outback 2.5, I have found a replacement vehicle here in Australia to compete with my "Old Lady", with the exception of the OutBack.
I know it doesn't have the zip-zip of the Commodore, but it has driveability - comfort - safety & RELIABILITY, which at my age is now more important to me than zip-zip, (but let me at a WRX please, just once.).
The Subaru range of vehicles are far superior in finish - handling - ride etc than our local products (I have owned Fords x 2 and GMH x 3 over the years), and I must say that I have now been swayed over to the Subaru's. From what I have researched here on the web, I will be in good company with the "Members of the Outback Club" (Lee Kernigan Aust.country & western singer).
Thankyou for your time,
Peter
Bob
Bob
I agree 100%. If your trailer is within the rated towing capacity of the vehicle, or at least reasonably near it, then you'll be fine with the auto. I would like to say you'd be fine with the 5spd too but in my 2 years of active Subaru-dom all over the web I'm afraid I have seen far too many clutch complaints (mostly chattering after a long shutdown, like overnight). I don't know why Subaru can't or won't install a properly stiff pressure plate...
Anyway, I've been in automatics that were overtaxed and even after the ATF is changed they won't shift right. With the 5spd if the clutch smokes, put in a real clutch (like ACT or Exedy) and the problem with go away for good, at a reasonable cost.
-Colin
Anyway, being the owner of an '00 OB I wanted to chime in my opinion.
I did look at a GT, and while I liked it, I didn't think the handling characteristics were much better than the Outback's.
While some of you may dislike the two-tone styling, the plastic sides actually function very well. It functions very well for reducing scratches and dents on my OB (knock on wood) for over 1 year I've owned it now, and I take my OB on gravel and dirt roads to the tune of 2-3 times a week. I wouldn't dare with a GT.
The GT may actually represent a better value to some of you, but there are certainly more than just appearance to the OB. For example, I really like the larger side mirrors, the AWP, the skidplates (even if they are plastic, they still keep out dirt).
Lastly, I like the appearance of the OB over the GT. You don't all have to agree, that's why Subaru makes different versions of the Legacy.
What it comes down to is that people have different tastes. Some are no doubt drawn in by marketting, but you shouldn't automatically conclude that someone chose an OB over a GT because of ignorance.
-- ash
They both represent good value.
-- ash
Anyone else getting really excited about the new Impreza? I am just realized that Subaru is going to be offering 165 hp in a base model car, which as far as I can tell is more than any car in its class!
AWD + 165 hp for the price of a Civic? While the WRX will no doubt be the attention stealer, the base Impreza might just represent the deal of the year. I'm certainly going to look at them once they're out.
-- ash
-mike
-- ash
As for OB, GT & IQ: I don't think that has the tiniest bit to do with it. Cars in America are purchased at least in part for image reasons. Subaru buyers in general are in an image class outside the norm, and from the sales figures it is pretty obvious that the OB is the most popular by far of the Subaru line. That means, in my humble opinion, that we're all smarter than the average car buyer, however the GT folk are in the minority - and as underdogs get sniping rights over the OB owners .
It also means, for this Subaru owner at least, that not only do I doubt that Subaru will ever become as successful as, say, Honda at selling to a broader US market, but also that I am quite happy that they are not! Subarus are designed by people who do stuff like insisting on horizontally opposed motors. They are different because of that; they have character because of that. I am virtually certain that I would have no interest in any car they made that had the broad appeal of a Honda Accord here in the US. They don't make cars like that; this Subaru owner hopes they never do.
Cheers,
-wdb
So, not only do we have Peugeot 505s and turbo ownership in common, we also have a common interest in bicycling. You can add these similarities to the profile of Subaru owners!
Don
a .--------------.
b / --- (logo) --- \ Legacy Brigton and L
c `----------------'
a .--------------.
b / --- (logo) --- \ Legacy GT
c `----------------'
a .--------------.
b /---- (logo) ----\ Outback
c `----------------'
Legacy L: Oval ring circumscribing the grill is black; horizontal line (b) is "chrome".
Legacy GT: Oval ring is chrome.
Outback: Same as GT but horizontal line is contiguous with oval ring (no break).
From above, here's the horizontal line; see the "arrows" v and ^
v v
/ --- (logo) --- \ Legacy GT
/---- (logo) ----\ Outback
^ ^
(3G Brighton was for a single year, MY00; it was dropped in MY01.)
Bit, you may have me on OCD regarding height of your GT and moonroof NVH, but my "observables" OCD is greater than thou.
Aeronautical trivia: "Low observables" relates to an aircraft's radar reflection, a.k.a. stealth technology on the F-117A, B-2, and F-22 Raptor (the most recent stealth aircraft acknowledged by the military). Technically the SR-71 has low observables (wing fillet and nose chine) though not to the extent of those above. I recall reading that even the B-1 is stealthy; the fillet between fuselage and wing reduces reflections and its four engines reflect 1/100 that of the B-52's (ugh) eight engines (not surprising given those bombers are separated by 30 years). See photos at Federation of American Scientitists. Interesting or frightening statement from FAS, depending on your perspective:
The limiting factor of the B-52’s service life is the economic limit of the aircraft's upper wing surface, calculated to be approximately 32,500 to 37,500 flight hours. Based on the projected economic service life and forecast mishap rates, the Air Force will be unable to maintain the requirement of 62 aircraft by 2044, after 84 years in service.
Ok, back to Subes. Got any more Subaru "observables" trivia questions for me?
..Mike
..Mike
Ok, now on to the fun stuff!
"Anyone else getting really excited about the new
Impreza? I am just realized that Subaru is going
to be offering 165 hp in a base model car, which as
far as I can tell is more than any car in its
class!
AWD + 165 hp for the price of a Civic? While the
WRX will no doubt be the attention stealer, the
base Impreza might just represent the deal of the
year. I'm certainly going to look at them once
they're out.
-- ash"
I am SOOOOOOOO freakin exited that I cant even look at other cars seriously til the 2002's come out! And I dont mean the WRX!!!
Im just hoping that its not too much for the base models ($18k is too much!) and somewhere around $16-17k for a base at most so I can get one! I really dont want to get a Focus ZX3, but thats my only alternative that I will even remotely consider (I can get one cheap with everything I want, and those cars handle oh so well)...
Now, WHEN WILL WE FIND OUT THE PRICES!!! ARG
Tom