That engine article was very interesting, but difficult for anyone not interested in engines. I, on the other hand, am only interested in the results, which can be put simply: MORE GO, LESS STOP!
I have just visited fhi.co.jp (Subaru-Japan) and saw a Lancaster model. Seems like a nice car. Do you suppose it may become available in N America and could it be the next Forester 2003?
Excellent direct injection article. I really enjoy technical articles like this.
I didn't follow the description of a "common-rail injection system". What's the difference between the fuel rail on, e.g., Subaru's MPFI and that used on Audi's direct injection? The DI fuel rail is higher pressure than MPFI, any other differences?
FSI: is this just an Audi engine model designation?
FWIW, the 02 Legacy brochure states "sequential multiport fuel injection with dual spray injectors" are used.
Sorry, I am not a gear head, so some of the details in the article were above me. You are asking questions here that are above my basic technical understanding. The reason why I thought it was apt to post the reference was because some statements were made that Audi/VW spends a lot of money on R&D and secondly, that I like the concept of making gasoline engines more efficient and I wanted to share that. I grew up with a more European approach to gasoline (petrol) usage and, hey, at the moment I live in California after all. I believe the engine described will probably be used by VW. Quite a few of their engines are being shared. Gasoline engines by themselves are not very efficient. Too much of the energy is converted into heat. Anything that will be able to convert the energy in fossil fuel more efficiently into the power required to drive the wheels carries my support. Here, turbo chargers mated to smaller engines to produce the same power as a larger engine, but with potentially less fuel usage, really appeals to me. Why can N2O systems not be main stream to get the most out of the energy in the fuel? Other technologies such as direct injection could indeed help a lot towards more efficient fuel usage. We will then be able to use smaller engines to achieve the same results as large (V8) engines.
Lastly, I have always been quite impressed by what Audi has done with their "Vorsprung durch Technik" (advantage through technology) approach.
I was most interested in the www.fhi.co.jp/english/news/2001/01_05_22.htm article at post #3510:
"The B4 RS25, fitted with a responsive and powerful 2.5 liters DOHC engine, is designed to provide driving pleasure for activity-oriented drivers. It is equipped with Bilstein-made dumpers and 17-inch tires."
I was wondering if I could retrofit my '96 Legacy GT with those Bilstein "dumpers".
DOHC, too. Remember, the current US spec 2.5l engine is SOHC. I'd like to see them make it DOHC and throw in variable valve timing, for 180hp or so. That would make a great base engine.
Interesting that we were talking about VW/Audi, and C&D comes out with a tid bit about their engines. They actually mentioned that a V4, or half of the W8, would soon appear in several models as their base engine, replacing the current ones.
I'm not sure exactly which engine it would replace, because there is the 1.8 125hp in Europe, a 1.8T with 150-225hp, and the Golf/Jetta/Beetle 2.0l 4 banger.
If the W8 makes 271hp, half of that should produce 136hp. More really, since they can usually get better efficiencies with fewer cylinders.
The article on the Vue and Vibe was interesting, too. I was dissapointed to hear the Vibe and Matrix will come only with 120hp in their AWD models. Lame.
The 2.0l VW engine is known to be a dog. It is also quite old. I would imagine that is the engine that will be replaced. The European market gets a larger variety of engines that what we get here in the USA.
Yeah, true. We have to remember the VW group includes Seat and Skoda, for example. I've seen a Seat Passat clone. The Seat Ibiza and Cordoba are sold in Brazil, along with VW clones like the VW Apollo.
In Brazil, VW sells engines in displacements like 1.0, 1.6, 1.8. 2.0, and variations of each with 16 valves.
Instead of the Lupo, they get a Gol, which is entirely different. They're all older designs and eventually globalization will catch up and replace them all.
That's the original 2.0l turbo DOHC I don't think it's changed, we just brought it over to the US. A phase III DOHC built off the Phase I would be nice. VVT or whatever FHI calls it would be nice too.
It's good to hear occasional praise on the old DOHC 2.5 for a change. Yeah, it's got it's share of flaws but I like how it's performance climbs as you pass 3K. My friend who drives a 00 Forester (Phase II SOHC) also likes how my engine pulls hard between 4-5K RPM.
Absolutely. I am fortunate to have a '97 Outback and an '00 Outback both AT, both Base models in my family, and both are usually up at my cabin upstate NY in the summer. So I was able to drive them back to back on the same road, both unloaded, both with the same fuel, etc. The '00 was a more refined ride, more comfy as a cruiser. But for spirited driving, I'll take the DOHC 2.5 in the legacy/ob over the 2.5 SOHC any day of the week!
a few days ago about this. They are used a lot overseas on African and other high adventure camping. They do work on most any vehicle although you may have to add an extra crossbar or two to distribute the weight of two people more evenly. Maybe someone who isn't as computer illiterate could post a link to their website for me?
for the Brat everyone. I'll share it. However, I would expect that things like towing,etc. will be pretty much the same as the OB in the first go around. Slow and safe approach for changes is how Subaru usually operates.
I think it looks rather promising *if true*. The six speed will be liked. I wonder what the AT option(s) will be like (5 speed?, manumatic?). A new boxer "based on the six"? Chains rather than belts? What displacement? Seems a bit odd to me. I am assuming it will still be Impreza based. I like the fact that the styling is an evolution rather than a revolution. I hope the length and especially weight do now grow radically. Thanks Tom, should lead to a lively thread.
Hmmm... is that for the US market though? The statement "Good news is the turbo engine will survive in the line up" makes me wonder since the US version doesn't have a turbo but other markets do.
I like it. It's just a tad more aggressive looking, still squared, still with fender blisters, just a little taller from that sketch.
The 6 speed probably refers to the turbo Japan will get. They have a 240hp model now, with the same hood scoop, so it doesn't mean the US will get the same thing.
H4 based on the H6? Hmmm, scaling it down would mean a 2.0l engine, so my guess is that is for Japan only as well. Maybe that is the 2.0l 156hp engine available there now?
I like the styling. What's under the hood will mean a lot, though.
Is it just me, or do the rest of you think the front end looks decidedly Outbackish? Now that's fine I guess, I love the way the OB looks upon approach, but it further blurs the distinction between the two vehicles. As for the rear end, it seems stylish alright, but they've eliminated one of my favorite elements in the current design: the big chrome letters which proudly proclaim SUBARU. I'd be a bit concerned if I was driving the new version that someone behind me might think I had an Escape; except of course that an Escape is usually seen being dragged behind towtruck.
I think Toyota copied the Forester when they designed the Highlander. That was the punch. Now Subaru made the Forester look more like the Highlander, in a counter-punch.
Keep in mind it's a sketch from a distant view - the details are all missing, including almost all badges.
The headlights look like the Highlander's, but that's fair because the Highlander copied everything else from the Forester.
The WRX was a real shocker. The Outback was evolutionary. But underneath both changed rather substantially, so maybe Ken is right. The new Forester will change more than the sketch implies.
Because of copyright issues, I had to remove the post with the picture and photo from the mag-x.com site, but for your convenience I have included a direct link to that info in the Additional Resources box.
c'mon, your not seeing the Outback because your not trying. Now punch up that full-screen image and hold your hand up so that only the hood, grill, and front quarter-panels are visible and, voila, its an Outback!
I agree that the Highlander is riding the razor's edge between "inspired by" and "ripped-off": just a bit bigger and more rakish. For some reason, the Subaru design team tends toward keeping the body contours a bit more "perpendicular" than the competition. But I don't mind a bit, as I still think the most convincing-looking SUV on the road is the good ol' Jeep Cherokee (NOT the bloated Grand Parody, mind you).
I disagree. Even the front has rather distinctive fender blisters. The Outback's fenders are rounded and far more generic.
The OB's headlights have a detail that splits them up, and you notice black lines dividing the different lights. They are also more rounded, less flared, especially the upper inside edge.
In the Mayflower e3 engine, a pivot lever arm is introduced between the crankshaft and the con-rod (connecting rod). This gives a more elliptical path to the con-rod big end, which changes the piston motion. Mayflower claims the design cuts fuel consumption by 40% and emissions by 50%.
The pivot point can be moved to vary the lever arm geometry while the engine is running, changing the compression ratio. Contrast with this variable compression ratio design: Saab SVC
Neat.
..Mike
PS - Apologies for the formatting, I'm fighting the forum software.
PPS - Frank P., sorry for not staying completely on topic.
Just got back from the Outer Banks of NC, only to find it's taken me the better part of last night just to get through all the posts. Yikes!
Certainly the Mag X link with the new Forester was the most interesting. If this sketch is anywhere near accurate, which it probably is, it's pretty much what I expected based upon what Subaru has done in the past in terms of model overhauls.
It appears to be an improvement. The design seems to be a bit better integrated than the current model; much like the new Legacy/Outback, which is also a much better integrated design than the previous generation. And... it certainly seems to be more successful than the new Impreza in that regard. However, a lot can happen between this sketch and the finished product. I remember seeing some pretty exciting sketches of the the new Impreza early on, only to be let down by the actual product (I'm talking styling folks, not performance).
Like the new CRV, I am most impressed by the way the rear end looks, more so than the front. I like the license plate being moved up on to the rear hatch. I'm hoping, although the sketch didn't indicate it, that maybe there will be an optional integrated tow-hitch receiver in the rear bumper, like those found on the Grand Cherokee, and many other new SUVs. I also think the tail lights look interesting. I'm glad to see the tail lights no longer continue over to the hatch. I much prefer the hatch to be "light-free."
Most interesting was the mentioning of the a 6-speed manual tranny. The question is: is it a performance-oriented 6-speed like that found on the WRX-STi, or is it a unit like that found on the old Honda Civic (mid-'80s era) with RT 4WD. On the old Civic, 1st gear was a granny gear used only for difficult situations. Normally you would start off in 2nd gear for ordinary driving. I wonder if that's what Subaru is planning on, rather than offering the dual-range tranny they have?
Gee Mike- Since when did I get appointed as the content [non-permissible content removed]? Okay so maybe some of the off-topic threads DO go on a little too long (IMHO).
In any case, your post certainly doesn't fit the OT category since this is the Future Models topic and you're educating us on possible future engine designs.
Speaking of OT, I really enjoyed the hash brown recipe discussion and I don't even like them!
Yeah, I guess moving the license plate up makes it look taller. It would take a miracle for a tow hitch, since "we who tow" are a small minority.
I say give us a 6 speed in all models. On the Sport package, gear it for performance. On the Mountain package, offer a lower final drive so that 1st is a granny gear for towing and crawling up steep inclines.
• Mag X mentions that it will be introduced in April. Since this is a Japanese web site, I'm assuming they mean it will be introduced in Japan in April. The Japanese usually introduce new vehicles to the home market before they introduce them to export markets. What happened to the rumor that the North America was going to get this new model in March?
• If the April introduction is correct, then we may not see it until August or so... which corresponds to the recent rumor of a new "Legacy-based" SUV to be introduced about that time.
• The Mag X posting made no mention as to whether the new Forester will continue to be based off the Impreza, or will come from the Legacy platform. And... there's no way of making any reasonably accurate predictions based upon sketches. So, we'll have to wait and see.
Comments
Have a look at the new direct injection petrol engine from Audi:
http://www.vwvortex.com/news/08_01/08_21/index.shtml
More power with less fuel! I like it.
Daniel
Bob
Seems like a nice car. Do you suppose it may become available in N America and could it be the next Forester 2003?
Thanks
JC
Bob
www.fhi.co.jp/english/news/2001/01_05_22.htm
JC
Ross
As to the Legacy/Outback:
I'm sure we'll see a lot of the upgrades that the home-market model just received, especially those found on the chassis.
Bob
Daniel,
Excellent direct injection article. I really enjoy technical articles like this.
I didn't follow the description of a "common-rail injection system". What's the difference between the fuel rail on, e.g., Subaru's MPFI and that used on Audi's direct injection? The DI fuel rail is higher pressure than MPFI, any other differences?
FSI: is this just an Audi engine model designation?
FWIW, the 02 Legacy brochure states "sequential multiport fuel injection with dual spray injectors" are used.
Here's a short, less technical Edmunds article on direct injection:
http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/43848/article.html
..Mike
..Mike
Sorry, I am not a gear head, so some of the details in the article were above me. You are asking questions here that are above my basic technical understanding. The reason why I thought it was apt to post the reference was because some statements were made that Audi/VW spends a lot of money on R&D and secondly, that I like the concept of making gasoline engines more efficient and I wanted to share that. I grew up with a more European approach to gasoline (petrol) usage and, hey, at the moment I live in California after all.
I believe the engine described will probably be used by VW. Quite a few of their engines are being shared.
Gasoline engines by themselves are not very efficient. Too much of the energy is converted into heat. Anything that will be able to convert the energy in fossil fuel more efficiently into the power required to drive the wheels carries my support. Here, turbo chargers mated to smaller engines to produce the same power as a larger engine, but with potentially less fuel usage, really appeals to me. Why can N2O systems not be main stream to get the most out of the energy in the fuel? Other technologies such as direct injection could indeed help a lot towards more efficient fuel usage. We will then be able to use smaller engines to achieve the same results as large (V8) engines.
Lastly, I have always been quite impressed by what Audi has done with their "Vorsprung durch Technik" (advantage through technology) approach.
Daniel
article at post #3510:
"The B4 RS25, fitted with a responsive and powerful 2.5 liters DOHC engine, is designed to provide driving pleasure for activity-oriented drivers. It is equipped with Bilstein-made dumpers and 17-inch tires."
I was wondering if I could retrofit my '96 Legacy GT with those Bilstein "dumpers".
Interesting that we were talking about VW/Audi, and C&D comes out with a tid bit about their engines. They actually mentioned that a V4, or half of the W8, would soon appear in several models as their base engine, replacing the current ones.
I'm not sure exactly which engine it would replace, because there is the 1.8 125hp in Europe, a 1.8T with 150-225hp, and the Golf/Jetta/Beetle 2.0l 4 banger.
If the W8 makes 271hp, half of that should produce 136hp. More really, since they can usually get better efficiencies with fewer cylinders.
The article on the Vue and Vibe was interesting, too. I was dissapointed to hear the Vibe and Matrix will come only with 120hp in their AWD models. Lame.
-juice
The 2.0l VW engine is known to be a dog. It is also quite old. I would imagine that is the engine that will be replaced.
The European market gets a larger variety of engines that what we get here in the USA.
Daniel
In Brazil, VW sells engines in displacements like 1.0, 1.6, 1.8. 2.0, and variations of each with 16 valves.
Instead of the Lupo, they get a Gol, which is entirely different. They're all older designs and eventually globalization will catch up and replace them all.
-juice
-mike
But I'm talking about a Phase III, with more precise valve control and higher output.
The WRX and H6 are both DOHC designs, so it seems like they are moving back in that direction.
-juice
-mike
It's good to hear occasional praise on the old DOHC 2.5 for a change. Yeah, it's got it's share of flaws but I like how it's performance climbs as you pass 3K. My friend who drives a 00 Forester (Phase II SOHC) also likes how my engine pulls hard between 4-5K RPM.
Ken
-mike
www.loftyshelters.com
Thanks again,
Patti
I got a schedule of local shows:
DC Auto Show: 12/26 to 1/1
Philly: Jan 5-13
Baltimore: Feb 6-10
OC: March 1-3
And the big ones:
Tokyo: Jan 11-14
Detroit: Jan 12/20
Chicago: Feb 8-17
NY: March 29 - April 7
I think I can score free passes to Baltimore again. Philly would be worth it if any new Subies show up.
-juice
1/23 - 1/27 PA state Farm Show Complex
Frank
Ross
-mike
-Frank P.
The source for that new Forester link in post #3528 isn't Australian, it's Japanese as follows:
http://www.mag-x.com/index_nn.html
The 6 speed probably refers to the turbo Japan will get. They have a 240hp model now, with the same hood scoop, so it doesn't mean the US will get the same thing.
H4 based on the H6? Hmmm, scaling it down would mean a 2.0l engine, so my guess is that is for Japan only as well. Maybe that is the 2.0l 156hp engine available there now?
I like the styling. What's under the hood will mean a lot, though.
-juice
PS Definitely looks Impreza based, nice and light
Dave
I think Toyota copied the Forester when they designed the Highlander. That was the punch. Now Subaru made the Forester look more like the Highlander, in a counter-punch.
Keep in mind it's a sketch from a distant view - the details are all missing, including almost all badges.
-juice
Just a conservative teaser. I'm gonna bet it's going to look a lot different.
Ken
The headlights look like the Highlander's, but that's fair because the Highlander copied everything else from the Forester.
The WRX was a real shocker. The Outback was evolutionary. But underneath both changed rather substantially, so maybe Ken is right. The new Forester will change more than the sketch implies.
-juice
KarenS
Host
Owner's Clubs
I agree that the Highlander is riding the razor's edge between "inspired by" and "ripped-off": just a bit bigger and more rakish. For some reason, the Subaru design team tends toward keeping the body contours a bit more "perpendicular" than the competition. But I don't mind a bit, as I still think the most convincing-looking SUV on the road is the good ol' Jeep Cherokee (NOT the bloated Grand Parody, mind you).
Dave
-mike
The OB's headlights have a detail that splits them up, and you notice black lines dividing the different lights. They are also more rounded, less flared, especially the upper inside edge.
-juice
Flash animation
http://www.mayflower-e3.com/
http://www.mayf.co.uk/
BBC: Mayflower has designs on your car
The pivot point can be moved to vary the lever arm geometry while the engine is running, changing the compression ratio. Contrast with this variable compression ratio design: Saab SVC
Neat.
..Mike
PS - Apologies for the formatting, I'm fighting the forum software.
PPS - Frank P., sorry for not staying completely on topic.
..Mike
-Brian
Anyone else notice that a 156hp engine got to 100kph in just 7.7 seconds? That's 62mph, and it's also significantly quicker than the VDC, even.
What gives? If that's the 2.0l engine from Japan, bring it over!
-juice
Certainly the Mag X link with the new Forester was the most interesting. If this sketch is anywhere near accurate, which it probably is, it's pretty much what I expected based upon what Subaru has done in the past in terms of model overhauls.
It appears to be an improvement. The design seems to be a bit better integrated than the current model; much like the new Legacy/Outback, which is also a much better integrated design than the previous generation. And... it certainly seems to be more successful than the new Impreza in that regard. However, a lot can happen between this sketch and the finished product. I remember seeing some pretty exciting sketches of the the new Impreza early on, only to be let down by the actual product (I'm talking styling folks, not performance).
Like the new CRV, I am most impressed by the way the rear end looks, more so than the front. I like the license plate being moved up on to the rear hatch. I'm hoping, although the sketch didn't indicate it, that maybe there will be an optional integrated tow-hitch receiver in the rear bumper, like those found on the Grand Cherokee, and many other new SUVs. I also think the tail lights look interesting. I'm glad to see the tail lights no longer continue over to the hatch. I much prefer the hatch to be "light-free."
Most interesting was the mentioning of the a 6-speed manual tranny. The question is: is it a performance-oriented 6-speed like that found on the WRX-STi, or is it a unit like that found on the old Honda Civic (mid-'80s era) with RT 4WD. On the old Civic, 1st gear was a granny gear used only for difficult situations. Normally you would start off in 2nd gear for ordinary driving. I wonder if that's what Subaru is planning on, rather than offering the dual-range tranny they have?
Bob
..Mike
In any case, your post certainly doesn't fit the OT category since this is the Future Models topic and you're educating us on possible future engine designs.
Speaking of OT, I really enjoyed the hash brown recipe discussion and I don't even like them!
-Frank P.
Yeah, I guess moving the license plate up makes it look taller. It would take a miracle for a tow hitch, since "we who tow" are a small minority.
I say give us a 6 speed in all models. On the Sport package, gear it for performance. On the Mountain package, offer a lower final drive so that 1st is a granny gear for towing and crawling up steep inclines.
-juice
• Mag X mentions that it will be introduced in April. Since this is a Japanese web site, I'm assuming they mean it will be introduced in Japan in April. The Japanese usually introduce new vehicles to the home market before they introduce them to export markets. What happened to the rumor that the North America was going to get this new model in March?
• If the April introduction is correct, then we may not see it until August or so... which corresponds to the recent rumor of a new "Legacy-based" SUV to be introduced about that time.
• The Mag X posting made no mention as to whether the new Forester will continue to be based off the Impreza, or will come from the Legacy platform. And... there's no way of making any reasonably accurate predictions based upon sketches. So, we'll have to wait and see.
Bob