As Saturn's SUV arrives to do battle, I got a brochure to check out the competition. Saturn gave us a $25 certificate to Blockbuster Video just for visiting a dealer. ;-)
Any how, I found it interesting that the tow capacity for the 4 banger is 1500 lbs, and 2500 lbs for the V6, but both mention that is with trailer brakes. Furthermore, they include a footnote stating they are assuming you have only the driver in a base vehicle with no options, and that adding people, cargo, and even other options reduces that capacity. Wow.
The V6 has a decent 195 lb-ft of torque, but rear drum brakes only. Also, it gets a space saver spare, and ABS is optional. Also, FWD models get traction control with ABS, but not AWD models. I don't see why not. Don't AWD buyers want all the traction they can get? Isn't that the whole point?
16" wheels standard is good. The VTi tranny sounds interesting, and according to their graph keeps the 4 banger at 5500 rpm at WOT, right at the HP peak for th 4 banger. But it'll get a late intro while they work out the bugs, and it will not appear with the V6.
It's funny how GM can get the basic package right, but so many little details wrong. Customers love Saturn, but the Vue is a late comer and there is simply no excuse for all the miscues, IMO.
Is it still getting the electric power steering pump? I have one on my XT6 and it seems to work well, but at low speeds draws a lot of power when parking. I find the vue to be just another min-van and that towing capacity is pathetic.
Sorry, thought that your link was to another spot. Regardless, there seems to be a lot of rumors and if any of them come true, I know I'll be a happy guy. I have to assume that the 6 speed they are talking about is the same or very similar to the unit in the Sti, the same one C&D raved about when the tested the [non-permissible content removed]-spec Sti a few months back. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Has anybody heard any rumors that Subaru will announce a zero percent financing plan like the Big 2 and a half (sorry Chrysler fans)? I know that Subaru is offering interest as low as 2.9 on their lineup except the Imprezas, and the OBS. Even though Subaru is kind of a niche company, I find it hard to believe that they have been selling cars anywhere near the rate that GM has since the September 18, when GM started the deal. Thanks for the help.
I agree, especially about the 6-speed. I can't believe that Subaru would develop such a costly unit just for one model, the STi. I'm sure we'll see it in other Subaru models too.
In fact, I strongly believe the future in manual transmissions, is in high-performance 6-speed units like that found on the STi. I think the future for 5-speed manuals looks grim at best, especially as automatics get better and better each day.
I totally agree. It seems that a 6 speed unit is much better suited with some of these high output fours and sixes, than a 5 speed is. With a big GM V8, and all the torque down low, the motor doesn't need to rev to 5000 to get all the power. So in top gear, you can have a comfortable freeway cruising RPM as well as the torque on tap for passing. But with engines with higher torque peaks, it's nice to have to that extra gear to closen the ratios for acceleration, yet have a more relaxed engine at speed in top gear. I know my Civic would be MUCH more livable on the highway with another ratio. Only time will tell.
Well, I for one would love a 6-speed. The word from this board has be passed on.
Zero financing? I doubt it very much. We have some very low rates available. It apprears that there are very few people that are qualifying for the 0% and it seems to agg. people that are applying and not getting it. If you read the fine print on the ads they are saying for "very qualified" buyers and the time limits for he financing are pretty short. I don't think we are going to follow that trend.
Not only that, but 0% is in leiu of rebates. In some cases, you're giving up thousands of dollars in rebates. Also, it's only on some models. The Chyrsler EX minivans and other desirable models are excluded. But you can get it on full-priced cars that noone wants if you qualify! :-)
Vue does get electric power rack-and-pinion steering. Sure enough, paisan.
Pat: Mazda 6 hatch for the wife? Dunno. Not sure if she'd like the hatch as much as the handsome sedan. Also, we spent the weekend with friends that have a minivan, and again she got a peek at how nice it is to have that kind of space.
So when the time comes, we'll look at a bunch of stuff. I'm hoping the Mazda 6 will be out, plus some kind of Legacy turbo, and the Altima. Those would be the front-running sedans. Maybe a Camry, or the new Accord (she was bored by the last one she test drove, though).
Among bigger vehicles, I doubt the production Subaru will be ready. The 626 won't last until 2005, not reliably. So it would most likely be MPV 3.0l vs. Odyssey.
Her 626 had the CEL come on, again. I'm going to swap the O2 sensor and maybe have a dealer read the codes to see what the deal is. This is getting tiresome, though.
Interesting that the articles mentioned a new 4 cylinder series based on the 3.0l H6. Scaled down, that would mean a 2.0l H4 with 142hp, so I imagine that would be for other markets. They do mention the new Forester would get the engine first.
Subaru is right at the CAFE limit, so a 6 speed could do wonders for them. Make 1-5 lower than the current gears, and add a tall 6th for cruising. I'd even stop asking for a low range if that were the case.
I read you on your present 626, when it is one thing after another it is time to say goodbye and let somebody else have the hassle.
As far as vans go I think the Odyssey beats the Mazda hands down, the gas milage in the Odyssey is exceptional,have some friends in Buffaloe, he always bought domestic, and would have again only a dealer screwed him over on a windstar, so he bought an Odyssey he absolutely loves it.
He is getting well over 30MPG. highway, it is also larger than the mazda.
It's been a good car. 6 years plus now, 70k miles. Never stranded us. We had the hesitation last year (fuel injection service cleared that up) and the CEL just recently, but that's it. I'm just frustrated.
Yeah, Odyssey is bigger, 240hp, 5 speed auto now, even. But the windows don't go down, the track for the sliding door isn't incorporated as nicely, and the price is higher. I detest the idea of paying near sticker for anything, too.
The MPV has neat little things I like. The rear windows open. The seat slides side-to-side, even with a kid in it! You have to lift the Ody's to move it. Styling is a draw, but CR actually had Mazda well ahead in reliability, a surprise to me. It'll get 200+hp pretty soon, and I actually prefer the compact size.
If they were the same price, I'd probably pick the Honda. Any how, we'll drive them both and let the wife pick. That is if we even go with a van.
in Odyssey also slides side-to-side. To me, it's no contest—it's the Odyssey all the way. Apparently the public feels the same. Odysseys are all over the place—and for a good reason, it's the best mini-van out there. MPVs are much harder to find; I'm glad they gave it a bigger engine, still can't match the Odyssey's though.
Are you sure? I looked at one at one of the car shows and you had to tilt it forward, then slide it to the side, then drop it back down. Thing is, I can't imagine doing that with a child inside.
I'd pick the Honda powertrain, too, but it matters less to me in a minivan. MPV LX sells near the $21,608 invoice cost, and we would qualify for the MAC renewal rebate for another $750, plus they usually offer a $500 rebate early in the model year. So that's $20.4k or so.
The Honda would be $24.7k at retail, maybe less if the Ontario plant gets up to speed and they can meet demand.
$4 grand is a big difference. Pat mentioned the Honda's good gas mileage, but that difference would buy our gas for about 3-4 years.
One more thing - Honda's warranty is pitiful. I think it's the worst in the industry, just 3 years and no roadside assistance. Most Hondas are reliable but the Odyssey, at least per CR, seems to be the unfortunate exception.
My former next door neigbor has one and he's had multiple problems with the sliding doors. A bit ironic, because the power slider was one reason he bought it. It's been fine otherwise.
That's news to me. If we get serious about it, I'd do the usual homework on these boards.
I think our problem is we need to narrow down our choices. The wife likes sedans with manual trannies (Altima, Legacy, Maxima). I like wagons with AWD (Legacy). Our needs may dictate a minivan down the road (MPV, Odyssey). Or I could give Sandy to the wife and buy whatever for me, which opens up a whole new can of worms (WRX, IS300, 325).
As usual, I'll take about 3 years to decide, and drive about 25 or 30 cars along the way. At least it gives me several points of reference, and I know what to hope for from my next car.
Last time I was shopping, I was looking for a wagon with 20+mpg city and decent power, and kept getting disappointed by underpowered rivals. The Forester was a nice surprise. I'm sort of looking for that same feeling.
had sliding door problems. I'm sure by now Honda has addressed that, and any other issues. I would not be at all concerned about getting a lemon.
I'm almost certain about the sliding seat. In fact, Honda has a funny TV commercial pointing that out—sleazy kid (boy) & date (girl) in middle row (next to one another), and the boy makes a comment to the girl's dad (who is driving) about how he treats all his woman. Dad stops the car, makes the boy get out, and then moves the seat away from his daughter. The boy gets back in, and they drive on. Very funny indeed...
As to whether you "have to get out" or not before sliding it, that I don't know. The commercial indicates that you may have to.
I'd still get the Honda over the Mazda, even if that's the case. Most buyers opt for "maxi-mini-vans," not small ones. The Honda simply has much more room than the Mazda.
Finally, I believe all Odysseys come with traction control standard. Certainly not as good as AWD, but better than plain FWD. I'm not sure if that's available on the MPV?
Oh, bingo. Now I recall specifically. Notice the dad parks the car, gets out, waits for the boy to get out, lifts the seat and moves it over, then the boy gets back in, the dad walks around the car, and 5 minutes later they are off.
In the MPV, you pull a knob and slide the seat over. 2 seconds, if that. I have sat in the seat and moved it from side to side effortlessly, and it's one of those "wow" features you tend to appreciate.
Now imagine you have a sleeping baby in that seat (if we get a van we'll have a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd). Plus, the windows go down for when you go sight seeing.
I like clever details like that. The Ody's space is great, but I think Mazda out-Honda'd Honda in the interior overall. I'd have to look at specifics like payload, towing, crash tests, too, though. I'm not actively shopping so I haven't.
The Odyssey is bigger on the inside and bigger on the outside. MPV is smaller on the inside and smaller on the outside, and I presume easier to park (haven't driven one). I sat in an MPV with juice and I thought it was plenty big inside. I like that the MPV isn't the behemoth of the Odyssey or Grand Caravan. Agreed, if you want the biggest thing on the market, go for the Ody or GC.
I'd have to drive an MPV before weighing in on the power issue.
Like juice, I'd have problems paying retail for a vehicle. I'm just against it on principle.
Before we bought the GT, I wanted a van, my wife a wagon. Boy am I glad we ended up with the GT. Even with two small kids, we don't miss the space of a van. If we had to haul around more than two kids, I might think differently.
They actually were on a waiting list for an EX Odyssey. On a whim they test drove a MPV w/leather and moonroof. Both of my parents preferred the handling and manueverability of the MPV over the Odyssey. They also preferred the look and feel of the MPV's interior. I agree w/Juice that Mazda out Honda'd Honda on the sliding middle seat feature and also the roll down windows in the sliding doors. Actually even the disappearing rear seat can flip all the way around for impromptu tailgate parties! My parents thought the power of the MPV was fine but we disagree on this point. It really needs the 3.0 engine! I've driven both the Mazda and Honda and I prefer the Mazda overall even though the power is lacking. Mazda will be putting the 3.0 engine in soon though. My parents MPV is actually quite nice looking. Dad bought the rear spoiler a while later and had it installed. Their van is black w/tan leather. The moonroof approaches Forester/Trooper territory in size. Unless you absolutely need the size of the Odyssey and enjoy spending top dollar, I say go for the MPV.
That's right, the 3rd seat folds to face outward for tailgating. It's ingenious.
In fact, I think Honda copied Mazda in that regard, and now theirs does the same. Anyone confirm?
Weight it thy enemy. The Ody tips the scales at 4299 lbs, with 240 horses that's a burden of 17.9 lbs per horse. That's good, my Forester is about 19.
The MPV weighs 3662 now. With 200hp that would be 18.3 lbs per horse. It may gain a little weight, but the power/weight ratio is a lot closer than you would think.
Now has traction control, personally I would not be caught dead in a minivan, I guess its the mom and pop mobile thing.
It,s not an age thing either they just never turned my crank.
A lot of people would say that about wagons also but IMHO. the legacy is a good looking wagon, looks like it was designed as a wagon and not asedan with a wagon rear end grafted on.
I had this specific problem with the 94- 97 Accord the present small Saturn is another good example of a car with a wagon rear end.
The Odyssey can fit 4'x8' paneling flat on the floor with the seats removed and the rear hatch shut, the MPV can't. As any homeowner can attest, this is a nice ability to have. The '02 model can also be had with a DVD entertainment system for middle and rear passengers (EX w/leather only).
It all depends on what you need. As I said before, most mini-van owners opt for the long-wheelbase versions—for a reason, they need or want that extra space. My sister-in-law has three large kids, and they have an older long-wheelbase Chrysler Town & Country. They have said to me a number of times that they couldn't make do with a smaller mini-van. Smaller mini-vans may be okay for families with one or two kids, but if you have three or more, or carry a lot of stuff, you'll want as much space as you can get. You can just do so much more with the larger mini-vans than you can with the small ones.
Remember, most people who buy these things could care less about blitzing back roads. All they care about is carrying their family and all their stuff in reasonable comfort. Everybody here on this Subaru board are car enthusiasts—not exactly the typical mini-van customer. So I understand your position; it's tough to get passionate about a mini-van—any mini-van. You gotta think of a mini-van as a transportation "tool," not a transportation "toy." To think otherwise, I think you're setting yourself up for a disappointment.
In a nutshell, these are "reality-check" vehicles. You may not want one, but because of whatever reasons, you "may" need one. Given the design parameters of this "class" of vehicle, I don't see Mazda out-doing Honda at all. I admit it may have some neat features, but for most folks, size, and not roll-down rear windows is what counts. If you scale the MPV up to the Honda in size, then maybe I could agree with you.
I still like these mid-vans. They have gobs of power, AWD, and handle quite well. I rented one a few years back for 8 of us to go camping with. I drove it 8 hours straight and it handled extremely well even @ 80+ mph. I think it got around 25mpg on the highway too, which isn't bad considering. I've heard bad things about crash test in them, but my seat of the pants test it passed quite well. Excellent all around visibilty, AWD, Power, capacity. What more could you want in a mini-mid van? Oh and towing capacity in excess of 5K lbs. IIRC.
Pat: actually, the wagon was designed as a wagon from the start. I got a newsletter from FHI that Marco sent me, and it had an entire article about how the US and Japanese design studios each had design proposals for the Legacy.
Turns out they went with the Japanese wagon and the US sedan, tweaking it just so that they could share the front sheet metal. It was a really interesting article with sketches to back up their claim.
I fully agree with your statement about the Saturn SW2 and that Accord. They have rear doors from the sedan to cut costs, and you really notice.
Bob: I'm not going to be hauling 4'x8's, and if I did, I'd go with that trailer I've been wanting. I'd be looking at the LX, though it would be nice to at least add a roof rack to it. I'll continue to use my Notebook DVD, which has a 14.1" screen that literally dwarfs the tiny, tiny 6" screens offered built in.
I wouldn't want a small van to tackle twisties. I'd just want one that's easy to park! ;-)
Ash: wait til you have kids. You'll be running to the minivan store. It's like temporary insanity. I fully agree with Bob that it's something you feel you have to buy, not necessarily want to buy.
If Subaru would have built something based on the Exiga, IMO it would have been a hit. I agree with Mike S., with two kids a minivan isn't really a necessity. Unless of course both kids want to bring their friends with them.
If all of the current rumors pan out, Subaru will have a vehicle that can compete in almost every category. Small SUW, mid-size 7 passenger SUW, small performance car, mid-size performance car, small pick-up, roadster, etc. The future looks bright.
I don't have any panelling in my house and if I need to buy drywall, I'll borrow a friends pick-up or rent one from U-Haul.
2 kids planned, dog, nanny too, don't forget. We're about at the limit now in the Forester when we take road trips.
Exiga was a long time ago. It was before the 2000 Outback, even, so any concepts from that would have already gone into production. The WX-01 is now their peek into the future.
Dennis reminded me of something, though. I actually have had to haul some fencing for a neighbor friend. He needed two 6'x8' sections of fence, to replace his, which was eaten by termites. We strapped the old ones on the roof rack, dumped them, and hauled two new fence sections home on Sandy's roof. No way those would have fit in the van, and the LX without a roof rack would have been equally helpless.
Granted, it's nice if you have a trailer, or access to a friend pick up for those kinds of chores. However, not everybody has that luxury. I just know, that, if at moment's notice, I should decide to get some plywood, it would be great to have a vehicle that can handle it, without either hooking up a trailer, or bugging my neighbor (who may or may not be home).
As to the DVD size, in the '02 Odyssey brochure it looks larger than 6," although I could be wrong.
BTW, I just posted some of these questions and issues that juice and others have raised over on the Odyssey forum. Hopefully we'll get some responses from owners shortly. I'm sure the Odyssey vs. MPV has been discussed over there.
Well, I heard one manufacturer bragging about how their 7.3" screen was the biggest, and that's still about 25% of the screen area that my notebook offers.
Here's some feedback from owners of both Odysseys and MPV. It sounds like the new upcoming 3.0 MPV is worth a look. However, in that all-important category of size, it's still on the small side, IMO.
* built-in Karaoke machine! Scooby-dooby-do, where are you?
* a shower head, just what I've always wanted in a car!
* 1 video screen per passenger (all tiny)
* anti-bacterial interior (should be standard!)
* venetian blind moonroof (OK, I actually like this one)
* Scooters built-in to each door (ya think frameless doors can take their weight?)
* spare on the roof! (Willys 2)
* mid gates galore
* hybrids galore
* suicide style doors
* tapered rear end styling for aerodynamics
* vertical headlamps
We've come full circle. First we had horizontal headlamps. Then they became square, and taller, taller, and now they are vertical!
Look at the whole group, and I think it's fair to say that the Subaru HM-01 is one of the few decent looking and production-feasible concepts shown. Check out Edmunds' coverage again:
I dunno, but if I need to get ply-wood @ a moment's notice something is seriously wrong. I mean what could you possible have to need to get a sheet of plywood spur of the moment? Damn I hate when a meteor comes crashing through the side of my house and I have to go to homie depot @ 3am to fix it! Seriously though, I agree with Juice, a utility trailer + hitch = more capacity than any SUV/van can provide for items that can be hauled outside a vehicle.
I liked MPV's handling the best of all minivans, at the EdmundsLive last year. I also hate to pay retail for a car. Our Accord EX'97 was a big disappointment in terms of quality and driving dynamics, so much for Honda's nameplate...
my parents have had 4 of those Chevy astros since they came out in MY1985. The first one was terrible since it had the standard 2.8L V6 that Chevy finally tossed out later on. (I am still driving my 85 S10 Blazer w/ the same engine, not ready to take the plunge yet on a WRX) The other 3 came with the 4.3L that you were talking about. Yeah, it'll pull like an ox and will easily seat 8, but that good ole GM reliability is in full force with those things. The 85 was a cargo van knock-off and had no interior past the front seats, which sucks down here in TX. The 94 we had was flying apart by the time my parents traded it in for another back in April/May. They got a 2000 model still under warranty, which they have already used several times. The only one of the four that we didn't have any difficulty with was the 90 which we kept until we traded it in on the 94 during summer of 93. Took it up to Colorado, Pikes Peak and everthin'. Now my Mom is ready to ditch the current one since it seems like it's the worst of the bunch. I've been trying to talk her into a 2.5TS so she can have a wagon and all-wheel drive, but my Dad is wanting to get a truck (Dodge) at the same time. Boy, my parents sure can pick 'em...
Like I said, not everybody has access of a utility trailer, or a neighbor's pickup. Therefore, the ability to carry 4'x8' paneling inside the vehicle is a plus in my opinion.
Besides, what I've been saying along, people buy mini-vans for all space they offer. I'd be willing to bet the long-wheelbase mini-vans (pick a brand, any brand) outsell the short-wheelbase versions probably 10-to-1. Most buyers want that extra space, plain and simple. And... if it can also haul plywood, that's just frosting on the cake.
I have to agree, I won't likely own another american car anytime soon for that very reason. Bob, I still disagree that the plywood 4x8 is a requirement of a mini-van. Strider, have your dad check out a trooper. It's bigger than th durango (space wise)it's boxy like their Astros, it has AWD, and a 4wd S model w/AT goes for around $23K and a loaded LS goes for $26K for '01s with 10/120 warranty.
Remember, these vehicles are bought mostly by homeowners with growing families. Speaking from experience, there were many times I found a need to get some plywood or sheetrock, and having a vehicle that can accommodate that need is a nice thing to have. But, no, you're right, it's not a requirement.
My parents are dead set against buying another American car ever. Their oldsmobile had only 50k miles and it was totally falling apart (tranny, brakes, bushings, door panels, just name it) and the Aerostar they still have had its tranny die after only a couple thousand miles! (right after a 2 week cross country trip, would have stranded us if it happened any sooner!) Funny thing though is that they still have the Aerostar, despite the scary handling and bad quality, cause nothing built today can hall cargo AND people like that XLT can especially since it has the AWD to boot. Ive banned myself from driving it though, scares the heck out of me :P
I guess if you lived in Hurricane Alley then you might need plywood to protect windows. My alma mater, the University of Maryland, was damaged recently in a bizarre incident. Home Depot rents those little pickups, though.
Paneling may fit inside some Subies, I'm not sure. You can try to lay them diagonally inside. However, I agree it's nice to know the capacity is there. So...bigger is better?
Thing is, where do you stop? In terms of size and price, that is. I don't like the Dodge van they use for the World Bank shuttle. It's a rattle trap. The GM van is better, but what's with that goofy grey cladding up and around on the rear end? And the interior is cheesy as Cheddar, full of grey plastic. I prefer the Ford's interior, but don't trust its reliability.
I think we'll rent a van to try one out, maybe more than one. Wifey wants a conversion van, oh boy! We rented a Montana in Florida, but I hated the coarse engine and the air bag light kept coming on. Yikes!
Comments
-juice
Any how, I found it interesting that the tow capacity for the 4 banger is 1500 lbs, and 2500 lbs for the V6, but both mention that is with trailer brakes. Furthermore, they include a footnote stating they are assuming you have only the driver in a base vehicle with no options, and that adding people, cargo, and even other options reduces that capacity. Wow.
The V6 has a decent 195 lb-ft of torque, but rear drum brakes only. Also, it gets a space saver spare, and ABS is optional. Also, FWD models get traction control with ABS, but not AWD models. I don't see why not. Don't AWD buyers want all the traction they can get? Isn't that the whole point?
16" wheels standard is good. The VTi tranny sounds interesting, and according to their graph keeps the 4 banger at 5500 rpm at WOT, right at the HP peak for th 4 banger. But it'll get a late intro while they work out the bugs, and it will not appear with the V6.
It's funny how GM can get the basic package right, but so many little details wrong. Customers love Saturn, but the Vue is a late comer and there is simply no excuse for all the miscues, IMO.
-juice
Yet another rumor of a new 6-speed Subie...
Bob
Bob
-mike
Yep, hopefully there's some substance to these rumors...
Bob
-mike
Cheers Pat.
In fact, I strongly believe the future in manual transmissions, is in high-performance 6-speed units like that found on the STi. I think the future for 5-speed manuals looks grim at best, especially as automatics get better and better each day.
Bob
Zero financing? I doubt it very much. We have some very low rates available. It apprears that there are very few people that are qualifying for the 0% and it seems to agg. people that are applying and not getting it. If you read the fine print on the ads they are saying for "very qualified" buyers and the time limits for he financing are pretty short. I don't think we are going to follow that trend.
Thanks for the post!
Patti
-mike
Vue does get electric power rack-and-pinion steering. Sure enough, paisan.
Pat: Mazda 6 hatch for the wife? Dunno. Not sure if she'd like the hatch as much as the handsome sedan. Also, we spent the weekend with friends that have a minivan, and again she got a peek at how nice it is to have that kind of space.
So when the time comes, we'll look at a bunch of stuff. I'm hoping the Mazda 6 will be out, plus some kind of Legacy turbo, and the Altima. Those would be the front-running sedans. Maybe a Camry, or the new Accord (she was bored by the last one she test drove, though).
Among bigger vehicles, I doubt the production Subaru will be ready. The 626 won't last until 2005, not reliably. So it would most likely be MPV 3.0l vs. Odyssey.
Her 626 had the CEL come on, again. I'm going to swap the O2 sensor and maybe have a dealer read the codes to see what the deal is. This is getting tiresome, though.
Interesting that the articles mentioned a new 4 cylinder series based on the 3.0l H6. Scaled down, that would mean a 2.0l H4 with 142hp, so I imagine that would be for other markets. They do mention the new Forester would get the engine first.
Subaru is right at the CAFE limit, so a 6 speed could do wonders for them. Make 1-5 lower than the current gears, and add a tall 6th for cruising. I'd even stop asking for a low range if that were the case.
-juice
As far as vans go I think the Odyssey beats the Mazda hands down, the gas milage in the Odyssey is exceptional,have some friends in Buffaloe, he always bought domestic, and would have again only a dealer screwed him over on a windstar, so he bought an Odyssey he absolutely loves it.
He is getting well over 30MPG. highway, it is also larger than the mazda.
Cheers Pat.
Yeah, Odyssey is bigger, 240hp, 5 speed auto now, even. But the windows don't go down, the track for the sliding door isn't incorporated as nicely, and the price is higher. I detest the idea of paying near sticker for anything, too.
The MPV has neat little things I like. The rear windows open. The seat slides side-to-side, even with a kid in it! You have to lift the Ody's to move it. Styling is a draw, but CR actually had Mazda well ahead in reliability, a surprise to me. It'll get 200+hp pretty soon, and I actually prefer the compact size.
If they were the same price, I'd probably pick the Honda. Any how, we'll drive them both and let the wife pick. That is if we even go with a van.
-juice
Bob
I'd pick the Honda powertrain, too, but it matters less to me in a minivan. MPV LX sells near the $21,608 invoice cost, and we would qualify for the MAC renewal rebate for another $750, plus they usually offer a $500 rebate early in the model year. So that's $20.4k or so.
The Honda would be $24.7k at retail, maybe less if the Ontario plant gets up to speed and they can meet demand.
$4 grand is a big difference. Pat mentioned the Honda's good gas mileage, but that difference would buy our gas for about 3-4 years.
One more thing - Honda's warranty is pitiful. I think it's the worst in the industry, just 3 years and no roadside assistance. Most Hondas are reliable but the Odyssey, at least per CR, seems to be the unfortunate exception.
-juice
-mike
The 5 speed tranny is new this year.
-juice
-mike
I think our problem is we need to narrow down our choices. The wife likes sedans with manual trannies (Altima, Legacy, Maxima). I like wagons with AWD (Legacy). Our needs may dictate a minivan down the road (MPV, Odyssey). Or I could give Sandy to the wife and buy whatever for me, which opens up a whole new can of worms (WRX, IS300, 325).
As usual, I'll take about 3 years to decide, and drive about 25 or 30 cars along the way. At least it gives me several points of reference, and I know what to hope for from my next car.
Last time I was shopping, I was looking for a wagon with 20+mpg city and decent power, and kept getting disappointed by underpowered rivals. The Forester was a nice surprise. I'm sort of looking for that same feeling.
-juice
I'm almost certain about the sliding seat. In fact, Honda has a funny TV commercial pointing that out—sleazy kid (boy) & date (girl) in middle row (next to one another), and the boy makes a comment to the girl's dad (who is driving) about how he treats all his woman. Dad stops the car, makes the boy get out, and then moves the seat away from his daughter. The boy gets back in, and they drive on. Very funny indeed...
As to whether you "have to get out" or not before sliding it, that I don't know. The commercial indicates that you may have to.
I'd still get the Honda over the Mazda, even if that's the case. Most buyers opt for "maxi-mini-vans," not small ones. The Honda simply has much more room than the Mazda.
Finally, I believe all Odysseys come with traction control standard. Certainly not as good as AWD, but better than plain FWD. I'm not sure if that's available on the MPV?
Bob
In the MPV, you pull a knob and slide the seat over. 2 seconds, if that. I have sat in the seat and moved it from side to side effortlessly, and it's one of those "wow" features you tend to appreciate.
Now imagine you have a sleeping baby in that seat (if we get a van we'll have a 2nd and maybe even a 3rd). Plus, the windows go down for when you go sight seeing.
I like clever details like that. The Ody's space is great, but I think Mazda out-Honda'd Honda in the interior overall. I'd have to look at specifics like payload, towing, crash tests, too, though. I'm not actively shopping so I haven't.
-juice
No T/C on the 2001 models, we'll see about the 2002s, when the 3.0l V6 also arrives.
Any how, I'm still hoping for the Blitzen. If we have 3 kids we'll just take two cars! ;-)
-juice
I'd have to drive an MPV before weighing in on the power issue.
Like juice, I'd have problems paying retail for a vehicle. I'm just against it on principle.
Before we bought the GT, I wanted a van, my wife a wagon. Boy am I glad we ended up with the GT. Even with two small kids, we don't miss the space of a van. If we had to haul around more than two kids, I might think differently.
..Mike
..Mike
Stephen
In fact, I think Honda copied Mazda in that regard, and now theirs does the same. Anyone confirm?
Weight it thy enemy. The Ody tips the scales at 4299 lbs, with 240 horses that's a burden of 17.9 lbs per horse. That's good, my Forester is about 19.
The MPV weighs 3662 now. With 200hp that would be 18.3 lbs per horse. It may gain a little weight, but the power/weight ratio is a lot closer than you would think.
-juice
It,s not an age thing either they just never turned my crank.
A lot of people would say that about wagons also but IMHO. the legacy is a good looking wagon, looks like it was designed as a wagon and not asedan with a wagon rear end grafted on.
I had this specific problem with the 94- 97 Accord the present small Saturn is another good example of a car with a wagon rear end.
Cheers Pat.
It all depends on what you need. As I said before, most mini-van owners opt for the long-wheelbase versions—for a reason, they need or want that extra space. My sister-in-law has three large kids, and they have an older long-wheelbase Chrysler Town & Country. They have said to me a number of times that they couldn't make do with a smaller mini-van. Smaller mini-vans may be okay for families with one or two kids, but if you have three or more, or carry a lot of stuff, you'll want as much space as you can get. You can just do so much more with the larger mini-vans than you can with the small ones.
Remember, most people who buy these things could care less about blitzing back roads. All they care about is carrying their family and all their stuff in reasonable comfort. Everybody here on this Subaru board are car enthusiasts—not exactly the typical mini-van customer. So I understand your position; it's tough to get passionate about a mini-van—any mini-van. You gotta think of a mini-van as a transportation "tool," not a transportation "toy." To think otherwise, I think you're setting yourself up for a disappointment.
In a nutshell, these are "reality-check" vehicles. You may not want one, but because of whatever reasons, you "may" need one. Given the design parameters of this "class" of vehicle, I don't see Mazda out-doing Honda at all. I admit it may have some neat features, but for most folks, size, and not roll-down rear windows is what counts. If you scale the MPV up to the Honda in size, then maybe I could agree with you.
Bob
-mike
that's my youthful opinion
Turns out they went with the Japanese wagon and the US sedan, tweaking it just so that they could share the front sheet metal. It was a really interesting article with sketches to back up their claim.
I fully agree with your statement about the Saturn SW2 and that Accord. They have rear doors from the sedan to cut costs, and you really notice.
Bob: I'm not going to be hauling 4'x8's, and if I did, I'd go with that trailer I've been wanting. I'd be looking at the LX, though it would be nice to at least add a roof rack to it. I'll continue to use my Notebook DVD, which has a 14.1" screen that literally dwarfs the tiny, tiny 6" screens offered built in.
I wouldn't want a small van to tackle twisties. I'd just want one that's easy to park! ;-)
Ash: wait til you have kids. You'll be running to the minivan store. It's like temporary insanity. I fully agree with Bob that it's something you feel you have to buy, not necessarily want to buy.
-juice
If all of the current rumors pan out, Subaru will have a vehicle that can compete in almost every category. Small SUW, mid-size 7 passenger SUW, small performance car, mid-size performance car, small pick-up, roadster, etc. The future looks bright.
I don't have any panelling in my house and if I need to buy drywall, I'll borrow a friends pick-up or rent one from U-Haul.
Dennis
Exiga was a long time ago. It was before the 2000 Outback, even, so any concepts from that would have already gone into production. The WX-01 is now their peek into the future.
Dennis reminded me of something, though. I actually have had to haul some fencing for a neighbor friend. He needed two 6'x8' sections of fence, to replace his, which was eaten by termites. We strapped the old ones on the roof rack, dumped them, and hauled two new fence sections home on Sandy's roof. No way those would have fit in the van, and the LX without a roof rack would have been equally helpless.
-juice
As to the DVD size, in the '02 Odyssey brochure it looks larger than 6," although I could be wrong.
BTW, I just posted some of these questions and issues that juice and others have raised over on the Odyssey forum. Hopefully we'll get some responses from owners shortly. I'm sure the Odyssey vs. MPV has been discussed over there.
Bob
-juice
rsholland "Honda Odyssey (Vans Board)" Oct 30, 2001 5:59am
Bob
Nice to have resources like Edmunds around even when you're just curious.
-juice
* built-in Karaoke machine! Scooby-dooby-do, where are you?
* a shower head, just what I've always wanted in a car!
* 1 video screen per passenger (all tiny)
* anti-bacterial interior (should be standard!)
* venetian blind moonroof (OK, I actually like this one)
* Scooters built-in to each door (ya think frameless doors can take their weight?)
* spare on the roof! (Willys 2)
* mid gates galore
* hybrids galore
* suicide style doors
* tapered rear end styling for aerodynamics
* vertical headlamps
We've come full circle. First we had horizontal headlamps. Then they became square, and taller, taller, and now they are vertical!
Look at the whole group, and I think it's fair to say that the Subaru HM-01 is one of the few decent looking and production-feasible concepts shown. Check out Edmunds' coverage again:
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/47802/page019.html
-juice
-mike
Besides, what I've been saying along, people buy mini-vans for all space they offer. I'd be willing to bet the long-wheelbase mini-vans (pick a brand, any brand) outsell the short-wheelbase versions probably 10-to-1. Most buyers want that extra space, plain and simple. And... if it can also haul plywood, that's just frosting on the cake.
Bob
-mike
Remember, these vehicles are bought mostly by homeowners with growing families. Speaking from experience, there were many times I found a need to get some plywood or sheetrock, and having a vehicle that can accommodate that need is a nice thing to have. But, no, you're right, it's not a requirement.
Bob
Funny thing though is that they still have the Aerostar, despite the scary handling and bad quality, cause nothing built today can hall cargo AND people like that XLT can especially since it has the AWD to boot. Ive banned myself from driving it though, scares the heck out of me :P
Paneling may fit inside some Subies, I'm not sure. You can try to lay them diagonally inside. However, I agree it's nice to know the capacity is there. So...bigger is better?
Thing is, where do you stop? In terms of size and price, that is. I don't like the Dodge van they use for the World Bank shuttle. It's a rattle trap. The GM van is better, but what's with that goofy grey cladding up and around on the rear end? And the interior is cheesy as Cheddar, full of grey plastic. I prefer the Ford's interior, but don't trust its reliability.
I think we'll rent a van to try one out, maybe more than one. Wifey wants a conversion van, oh boy! We rented a Montana in Florida, but I hated the coarse engine and the air bag light kept coming on. Yikes!
-juice