Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland · December 2001

Yeah, that's a big part of it. Besides, I've had experience with Honda products dating back to 1965, so I have absolutely no problem buy a Honda.

A glimmer of hope...
This vehicle, which replaces the Passport, has to appeal to car-oriented SUV buyers (Highlanders) as well as the more traditional SUV buyer, who is more interested in the *traditional* role that SUVs have played (4-Runner, Passport, Explorer, etc.). So, I would expect it to be more capable than a Highlander, but less so than a 4-Runner; finding a niche that falls in between the two.

In all the early rumors about this vehicle, names such as Tahoe and Explorer have been bandied about as competitors. If it turns out to be nothing more than a larger and de-contented MDX; it will disappoint many, including myself.

Bob

rsholland · December 2001

the Phaeton.

Delete the space after the =, then copy and paste into URL window.

Bob

http://industryclick.com/microsites/Newsarticle.asp?newsarticleid=265418&srid= 10250&instanceid=5217&pageid=1120&magazineid=1004&siteid=26

lark6 · December 2001

Phaeton has been used historically to describe an open car, usually with four doors. The name is derived from a similar body style of open carriage. In essence VW is calling a sedan a convertible.

Ed

bblacha · December 2001

Maybe it's a sign of things to come? Kind of like Solara which took a couple of years to deliver on the promise of its name? VW has a history of building convertibles. Who knows.

--Bart

bblacha · December 2001

Someone here wished to see a retractable glass cargo roof like that of a Studebaker past. Well the idea might be coming back if this Acura gets produced:

http://hondanews.com/forms/images/*PV_1739

--Bart

lark6 · December 2001

...one of two Studebaker owners who frequent this board. The concept looks far more Ford Focus than Studebaker, however.

Ed

rsholland · December 2001

I guess it had to happen sooner or later. Time to say goodbye to one of the greatest automotive marketing ploys ever...

Bob

http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b121401.htm

rsholland · December 2001

All-new '05 Legacy
 I'm betting that the 3.0 H-6 will be the *main* engine used on this vehicle, and that the H-4 will be restricted more or less to bottom-feeder Legacy applications.

 We all know that there will be a Legacy Turbo for '05. We're also all assuming it will be an H-4 turbo of some sort, since SOJ has indicated that the H-6 doesn't give the handling they would like with the "current" Legacy platform. So, I'm betting it will be an H-6 turbo, not an H-4, since it will be on an all-new platform for '05...

Automatic Transmissions
Audi has made tremendous headway with the CVT transmission. Finally we have a CVT that can handle a decent amount of power. I'm predicting we will see more and better still high-output CVTs. Subaru has had quite a bit of experience with CVTs, so I would expect them to offer (at some point) a CVT that can handle even their powerful turbos.

And...
If high-output CVTs do come to light, what about a CVT-controlled Hi/Low-range transmission? I'm talking about where the final drive is controlled by sliding belts (or chains) instead of gears! Think about it: the final drive could go from High Range to a *granny-geared* Low Range, using a lever, but acting like a *rheostat* instead of a gear shift. You could get any sort of gearing you would like between High and Low, depending on the needs at hand.

Obviously there would have to be built-in safeguards so that you don't down shift from 70 mph into deep Low.

Patti, what do you think??

Bob

pattim3 · December 2001

It wouldn't suprise me much - but that being said, I think the demand for a 6 speed tranny will become a priority before we try a CVT again. Also, engines are the name of the game. I think we'll see more turbo's before we see more 6 cylinders. NOTE: This is my opinion - I haven't been told any of the above officially.
(must have a disclaimer for credibility)!!

Patti

pattim3 · December 2001

I'll try to get a list of what vehicles will be where and I'll post it here.

Thanks!

Patti

subearu · December 2001

Patti: don't forget about the Chicago Auto Show. Please let us know if there will be anything 'new' there.

-Brian

p0926 · December 2001

Bob- Why would DC axe the Prowler? According to Edmund's TMV, they're still selling for $4k over MSRP! It just doesn't make sense to kill such a successful and highly visible model.

-Frank P.

tincup47 · December 2001

The manufacturer sees invoice only, it doesn't matter to them if a vehicle sells for $100 over invoice or $10000 over MSRP. That is all revenue for the retailer. It becomes a monetary liability to produce vehicles with limited sales when the manufacturer is losing money on volume sellers. DC is in such a situation.

bluesubie · December 2001

Here's another post saying the ST-X will be called the "Baja". I'm sure Patti is really biting her tongue on the new name.
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=125810&referrerid=767
-Dennis

ateixeira · December 2001

DCX probably loses tons of money on the low volume Prowler, even if dealers make huge profits. It's now too old to have the halo effect on its line of cars, which was Plymouth anyway, not Chrysler.

The TMV is off in this case. The Chrysler dealer on Rockville Pike has a whole row of 4-5 Prowlers sitting unsold.

I agree it's time to stop production, and let it become a collectible.

I agree the Phaeton name is not a good match.

Pilot looks good. Does resemble the Axiom, but to me boxy is good. It looks beefier and roomier than the MDX, and I like that it'll be family oriented instead of luxury oriented.

The big, big question remains: price. Odyseey sells for list, and you spend almost $29k to get leather. Pilot has to cost more, maybe $31k or so. That's pushing it, but I'd still look at one.

I'm hoping the Pilot reduces demand for the Odyssey a little bit. Or at least Honda starts to offer a real warranty - 3/36 is ridiculous in this day and age.

-juice

rsholland · December 2001

as neat as it is, has served its purpose, that being an image vehicle to draw in showroom traffic. Chrysler now has a new showroom draw that mere mortals can afford to buythe PT Cruiser.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2001

Yep, so the Prowler has served its purpose. Or didn't, because Plymouth folded.

By the way, a buddy of mine asked me about several minivans and then set out to drive them all. Took a full day and drove the Chrysler, Mazda, Honda, and Toyota. The others were ruled out by him for one reason or another (safety + reliability scores, mostly).

Any how, I saw him yesterday and he was very impressed with the Odyssey, saying that none of the others even came close. The Grand Caravan was his 2nd pick of the bunch, but a distant 2nd.

Interesting, I'll drive them all too, but I'll wait for the 3.0 MPV, which is also getting traction control and a 5 speed auto.

Take note, Subaru, now Kia, Honda, and Mazda all market 5 speed autos in Subaru's price range, if not vehicle class.

-juice

rsholland · December 2001

got people in the showroom, and some of those bought Chryslers, not Plymouths. Plymouth, as a brand, just didn't have enough substance to survive in the marketplace.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2001

True, but there were a handful of Plymouth-only dealers. I'm sure they are Chrysler dealers now.

GM is having a head ache with Olds dealers, who are pretty peeved.

-juice

rsholland · December 2001

I pretty much agree. And to elaborate a bit further on my and your post:

 6-speed: I agree, and hope, that we see more wide-spread application of this unit. In fact, I'm certain it will occur. My understanding is that this 6-speed unit (in the STi) is the first new *in-house-designed* tranny in a long time. That suggests a huge financial and energy commitment on Subaru's part, and I can't see that kind of commitment reserved for such a low-volume car such as the STi. Once it proves reliable, and they can guarantee production capability, we will see it spread to other models. I think it's just a matter of time.

 My comment regarding the H-6 becoming the main engine for the all-new "05 Legacy is based on the fact that Subaru (I believe) is building a new engine factory to produce more H-6 engines. I think that's why to date, that engine has been restricted to the LL Bean and VDC. Currently they can't produce enough H-6s to adequately supply other models.

 I also agree that we will probably see more turbos. And... I hope a 3.0 H-6 turbo is one of them...

 Automobile magazine, in their current issue, named the Audi CVT as the top engineering item of the year. With that kind of positive publicity, the popularity of CVTs is bound to increase. It certainly impressed me. I've been pushing for a 5-speed automatic for some time. Now I'm not so sure. maybe a CVT is a better (long-term) direction to go.

 I also think that a CVT-type final drive, that is a driver-controlled, has great potential. With such a system, the driver can choose any sort of final gearing that goes from a super-low to high, or anything in between. I really think this something Subaru engineers should explore.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2001

Early reviews on the CVTs in the Saturn and Audi are mixed. I think it'll take a leap of faith for US buyers to get used to the way they feel, though I would prefer a CVT over a conventional automatic it the price were the same.

I do like the idea of a low range mode, which would just use lower gears already on the CVT. Audi brags about the range from lowest to highest gear. Great, then.

6 speeds, yes, please. H6 turbo? paisan would be happy. If the price can be kept under $30k, sure, if not, stick to something affordable that fits the Subaru image.

Is H6 supply really restricted? It almost seems more like demand was restricted. H4+H6 sales are no higher than H4 sales were alone.

-juice

tincup47 · December 2001

Does a CVT provide for engine braking? The primary reason Low Range is useful for off-roading is for the additional engine braking for descents. I have had no experience with CVT's, but if it does not provide engine braking, it would have limited usefullness off-road.

rsholland · December 2001

I don't think the H-6 is restricted, per say. I've been under the impression that Subaru current building capacity of the H-6 pretty much has limited it to just the LL Bean and VDC. I know they're building a new engine plant which I'm sure will allow them to increase production for other models. That's probably one of the reasons it's taking the new pickup so long to get into production. They can't offer that vehicle with the H-6 until the new engine factory is up and running, and they're not going to offer a pickup without the H-6.

The beauty of an CVT-type *transfer case* is that the driver can select any final drive ratio he or she chooses. You're not restricted to a specific high or low range.

Bob

rsholland · December 2001

I would think so, if you're able to restrict the gearing. As you know, this is done via two pulleys and a belt or chain. Audi offers a *tip-tronic* override on their CVT, so that the driver can *simulate* shifting gears. If you were to offer that feature on a transfer case, I would think engine braking would be controlled by whatever gear (or position of the pulleys) the driver selects.

That's a good question though.

Bob

rsholland · December 2001

What I'm suggesting is both a CVT transmission and a tip-tronic driver-controlled CVT transfer case ( or final drive, if you prefer), not just a the tranny.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2001

I had a Honda Aero 125 scooter with a CVT, and it didn't have engine braking, but that was because of the 2 stroke engine (no compression stroke).

But I think you are right - most CVT belts are designed to either push or pull, not both. In fact most belts are designed to pull, though I read that Honda's pushes. I remember thinking how unique that characteristic was.

-juice

1subydown1togo · December 2001

Is final dive a jump into an empty pool?

rsholland · December 2001

You're right, 2-strokes don't have any engine braking. Anybody remember the old 750 and 850 Saab's with *Free-Wheeling* from the 1950s? They we're 2-strokes, with no engine braking.

Bob

tincup47 · December 2001

I would hate to try and come up with the software algorithms to make that combo work. I can imagine the number of possible ratio combinations and duplications possible.

rsholland · December 2001

Did I say that? It should have been final *drive.*

Bob

rsholland · December 2001

If Audi has done it with their CVT, I'm sure it can be done. Also, I believe Subaru recently introduced a "7-speed Sport-Shift" CVT on their Pleo sold in Japan.

I think the bigger issue is developing reliable units that can withstand high horsepower and high torque.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2001

The more I think of it, the harder that would be to work out.

If you think about it, they are already less robust. Taking them off road would test their limits in an ugly way.

I could see a CVT with several modes, like Econo, Sport, Snow, etc. Econo could be geared tall, to please the CAFE fuel misers. Sport would keep it at the torque peak. Snow would start in 2nd, oops, I mean start at a higher ratio to avoid wheel spin.

I guess it could have a Low mode, geared even shorter than Sport, and that might help in towing and off roading, but again you question how robust the belt would be, could it pull Bob's much wanted Class II trailer, at 3500 lbs?

-juice

rsholland · December 2001

Audi is the first to offer a CVT to handle a "good" amount of power. Prior to this unit, all CVTs were restricted to small engines.

The question is: can they develop CVTs, or CVT-type transfer cases, to handle large amounts of power?

Bob

tincup47 · December 2001

I imagine just having a CVT Trans wouldn't be that difficult, but to add a CVT Transfer case on top of that would be a nightmare. Having 2 infinite ratio boxes together in the same vehicle seems to be a overly complex solution. I believe in KISS (Keep it simple stupid) when it comes to off-road applications. I would imagine a 2 speed case (Hi and Lo) with CVT would be all anyone could ever need, and much more price effective.

rsholland · December 2001

I believe this is based of the redesigned Toyota Land Cruiser Prado, which is sold in other markets. The old (current) LC Prado was based on somewhat on the 4-Runner, in that it used the 3.4L V6 and the 4-Runner's IFS, but was boxier and more like a Trooper in appearance. It was rumored to be redone, and it looks like it will come State-side badged as a Lexus. I bet the all-new '03 4-Runner will be similar too, but with a V6 instead.

I wonder if this is in adddition to the current LX 470, or will replace it?

Bob

http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_031714

rsholland · December 2001

I was under the impression that CVTs are simpler than than conventional transmissions.

Bob

rsholland · December 2001

has both a front and rear LSD! Does that mean it can direct all its power to only one wheel, if need be?

Bob

http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_/showall_/id_SUB/doc_sub0112171/article.html

tincup47 · December 2001

Simpler in parts, yes. But to get the correct ratios requires sophisticated electronic controls. Having 2 units in one vehicle trying to both select correct ratios from an infinite (or close) number of ratios, especially with the potential duplications would make the electronics very complex.

rsholland · December 2001

maybe a combination of a conventional transmission with a CVT transfer case, or vice-versa, would be a simpler solution?

Bob

tincup47 · December 2001

I think a CVT with standard transfer case would be preferable and more practical.

ateixeira · December 2001

Bob: they probably will develop sturdier CVTs with time, but I'll tell you what, I wouldn't want to own v1.0.

I think Saturn stumbled a bit with theirs and delayed the launch of the Vue, you wanna bet they'll have tranny issues in 2 years?

But things like emissions and fuel efficiency will keep pushing for CVTs, and it looks like Audi did much better than Saturn.

I don't think it would even need a 2 speed transfer case. Just give it a wide range of gears, with an ultra-short lowest gear. Audi's already has a wider ratio range than even some 6 speeds in the market.

The RX is already a bit too pricey so I lost interest in that GX470. My dad used to buy fleet cars for his field offices in Suriname and Belize, and they used to get Land Rover Discovery diesels for like $18 grand. They later switched to Land Cruisers, and he paid less than $25k for his last one, with delivery and insurance included.

OK, they have vinyl seats and diesel engines paired up with 5 speed manuals, but that just goes to show how much "fluff" they put on their US models. The price doubles! My dad had the 3rd row seat, low range, and trailer hitch, too.

I can't order them since I'm at HQ in the US, though. Only field offices can get them. They did have 2.0l Subies in the catalog, too, but without the same discount, not even close.

-juice

fernieguy · December 2001

Doesn't a snowmobile use a CVT?, I think they must since they have to rev so high to get going but that is where maximum power is available.

Stephen

rsholland · December 2001

<< I don't think it would even need a 2 speed transfer case. Just give it a wide range of gears, with an ultra-short lowest gear. Audi's already has a wider ratio range than even some 6 speeds in the market. >>

That's another possibility, especially if it has a "Sport-Shift" capability. That way you could restrict it to what ever ratio you want.

I also agree about v.1.0.

Bob

hammersley · December 2001

Does a snowmobile use a CVT or a centrifugal clutch? I know how both operate (sort of) - how do they compare in efficiency vs. performance?

Inquiring minds want to know...
Cheers!
Paul

rsholland · December 2001

I'm real curious about this one. If indeed it's the redesigned LC Prado, that means it will fall between the RX300 and the LX 470and will be a true off-roader.

I wonder if it will have an IRS, and be more of a Mercedes ML type of vehicle (IFS/IRS and 2-speed transfer case)? That's the only reason I can see for this vehicle, something that bridges the gap between the RX 300 and the LX 470.

Bob

ateixeira · December 2001

Bob - there are lots of Land Cruiser models in other countries, including small 4 doors and smaller 2 doors. But the King is the one the USA gets, I just wish the price was what my dad would pay!

Wow, Toyota has a truly full line of SUVs. RAV4, Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia, RX300, LX470, and now maybe this?

You could even argue the AWD Matrix could be on that list.

Nice to have such deep pockets.

-juice

rsholland · December 2001

If you visit the Japanese Toyota web site, you will see that they offer about a 1/2 dozen different Land Cruisers, from the LC 100 (what we get) to rock-busting 3rd-world oriented models.

Bob

paisan · December 2001

Is gone after 2002 for the US market. It, like the Trooper does not comply with US crumple zone requirements for MY2003 vehicles. Basically the Trooper and the LC use the other vehicle as their crumple zone to protect the occupants of their vehicles. Oh well. Also I think that overseas the LC comes with SFA instead of IFS.

-mike

paisan · December 2001

Not a problem like Plymouth, since about 3 years ago GM required all Olds dealers to become Cadilac dealers as well. I believe this was in anticipation of the demise of Olds.

-mike

rsholland · December 2001

are available with both IFS and SFA. At least in Australia, that's the case. Their top-of-the line Land Cruiser 100 has IFS. Lower trim LC 100s have a SFA. FYI: the LC 100 is what we get here. In other markets it's referred to as the Land Cruiser 100, or Land Cruiser Amazon.

Are you sure about the current Land Cruiser not meeting crash standards. That seems strange since the vehicle was redesigned not that long ago.

Bob

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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