Subaru Crew - Future Models II

paisan · January 2002

Interesting that they are offering the lights on the roof as an option. I'm pretty sure there are some states they are illegal in. Anyone know more about the lighting laws?

-mike

tincup47 · January 2002

I'm sure if it is an option, it will be restricted for sale in States that it is illegal in. Accessories are the owners responsibility, but options are subject to local laws.

bluesubie · January 2002

Beachfish - Hopefully, there will be some sort of tonneau cover to protect those rod/reels.

Although most fishing vehicles I've seen have them mounted on the front, roof or rear.

-Dennis

subearu · January 2002

When I had my Chevy Z71 pickup, I always used 4LO for pulling my 5000# boat out of the water. Just made that process a heck of a lot easier and controllable, IMO.

I've seen other truck users do the same. Probably doesn't make much sense if you're only dropping is a couple of jet skis, however. So, as far as mating it to the Baja, I don't think it's necessary - at this time.

I wonder if Graham can comment on the towing sag issue. They get the leveling suspension down under - an option that if made available on the Baja would eliminate that sag during trailering.

-Brian

bluesubie · January 2002

There's a dealer meeting coming up at the end of this month.

Everyone go to their dealers (or a dealer) and let them know what you think of the Baja. Then they could probably push for some changes. Of course this is in addition to SoA getting feedback from here.

-Dennis

rsholland · January 2002

Graham also has the dual-range tranny.

Those are all features that could make a "good" car a "great" car.

Bob

paisan · January 2002

I think the problem is that subaru is trying to break-out of it's niche vehicle market here. Tons of cute-utes offer AWD now, and for the layman, they don't know the difference between the subaru AWD and say the Honda FWD that kicks in the rear after slippage and Ford Escape doing the same. But if they offered a low-range (even if it's just a push-button on the dash) that would set it apart from the rest of the cute-utes out there. Americans like gimmicky things like that, also a power-split guage like the TOD indicator on my trooper would also gain lots of attention by the american public.

-mike

rsholland · January 2002

tjman · January 2002

I was hoping the ST-X would never make it to the market, as I could never get to like the Tonka toy like look of the concept car. Now it is here, and I rate it up there with the Aztec to be one of the more ridiculous looking cars I have seen in quite some time. The rest of the world gets the B4, GTB, STi and we (in the US) get this nonsense.

- Eugene

tincup47 · January 2002

I think Subaru is looking at a new niche for them, not trying to get mainstream. Car based pickups have always been niche vehicles, even when Ford and Chevy did the Ranchero and El Camino. At best these are limited duty vehicles that will appeal to a limited customer base. They will never substitute for someone who needs a real truck, but they are fine for the light truck usage that most people require. I'm not sure how successful this will be (everyone else abandoned theirs for poor sales) but it has the potential to increase sales and not tap to hard into their other vehicles sales.

rsholland · January 2002

What you're saying is true. And, as you know, small car-based pickups are common in other markets, such as Europe, Australia, etc. I think the Subaru Baja is unique in that this is the only 4-door car-based pickup.

I'm not sure, but I do think that all the other car-based pickups are at least a little more "beefier" than their car counterparts. After all, in other markets these are used as trucks, not cars.

Bob

rsholland · January 2002

I'm reacting to here is, I see no advancement in other areas. This is, after all, an '03 model. It's the tip of the iceberg for other '03 Subies.

Examples:

 There is no power increase from the 2.5 engine. I sort of expected there would be, considering there are now several manufacturers that are in the Subie "power" ballpark. The fact that the Baja's engine is the same, suggests to me that all '03 2.5 engines will remain the sameincluding the new Forester. Frankly, I was hoping that the DOHC 2.5 from Japan will make its way here. Now I'm not so sure. My best hopes for that engine will be for the '03 Legacy GT. I guess we'll see next month...

 No Low Range. Well, if the Baja didn't get a Low Range, I very seriously doubt the new Forester will either.

 No 6-speed. According to Mag-X, it's rumored the Japanese Forester will get a 6-speed. Since the Baja didn't get it, I doubt that U.S.-spec '03 Foresters will either.

 The Baja, like the Outback Limited, comes with a single-disk CD player, yet the WRX and Forester S models come with a standard 6-disk CD unit. This suggests to me that the Outback Limited will probably remain the same for '03. The reason I mention the Outback Limited is because the Baja seems to be contented pretty much the same as the current Outback Limited.

 The Baja's headlights are the same as the current Legacy/Outbacks. Yet the Japanese and Aussie counterparts have recently gotten new headlights. Does that mean our Legacys/Outback will remain with the current headlights too?

Again, I see the Baja as a harbinger of the rest of the '03 Subaru lineupand I'm still left feeling hungry...

Bob

francophile · January 2002

My turn :-)

1) It's U-G-L-Y. It always was, still is. However that Chevy thing with the hatch right behind the rear seats is butt ugly too, and they apparently are selling well. This ugly Subaru will probably not only sell well, but it will appeal to a whole new group of folks, namely those who think something this ugly *must* be functional.

2) Those folks who go see it for the looks will walk away because of the power. I'm not surprised that it has the 4-banger, because the 6 has production ramp-up issues IIRC, but the 4 simply will not draw the folks who might be attracted by how ugly it is.

3) Body cladding all the way up to the door handles, a new high! Too bad it's so ugly, doubly too bad that I find the 2-tone schemes on utility vehicles to be generally silly, treble too bad that Subaru succumbed in such a big way to the ugly silliness.

4) Is this thing really any longer than the wagon? If so, is it all in that ugly bumper they glommed onto the back end?

5) Uh-oh, something I might like; silver colored trim bits for the interior! I might have to buy a set to replace the fake wood in my GT.

I hope it sells, I guess, so that SoA gets to bring more concept cars to market. OTOH I wish they'd play more to their traditional, internationally recognized strengths, such as value, function, and ruggedness. This thing is a poseur, and that makes me sad.

-wdb

cb70 · January 2002

section of the subarubaja.com page. There's hope for your fishing poles yet! No hope for a decent midgate that might let you put in something bigger than your fishpoles though!

beachfish · January 2002

I used to leave my rods and reels exposed in racks or holders. Then I learned, the hard way, that sunlight deteriorates monofilament line and that rocks and bugs and windblown sand will make a mess of good equipment.

It really bugs me to see folks bouncing along the beach with a front rack full of 11' rods and everyone of them has, oh, a 4 to 8 ounce sinker banging the heck out of the rod and the grill.

Then there are the thieves.

John

P.S. - I remember this working as a kid, but it sure doesn't work now. I keep spinning around in the center of the room and saying OutBrat, OutBrat, OutBrat real fast over and over, but when I look at the picture of the OutBrat it won't change.

Somebody pinch me and wake me up from this bad dream.

I want a focus group recount.

bblacha · January 2002

I wonder what the press is going to say about the Baja.

Has anyone seen any press reviews or comments out there yet? (Other than the "quirky" mention on Edmunds)

--Bart

lucien2 · January 2002

from the email I got today; let the gouging begin!!

"Incredible handling, design, and innovation. Priced for
everyone. It's the MINI way."

BASE MSRP FOR MINI COOPER: $16,850

BASE MSRP FOR MINI COOPER S: $19,850

"For more details, including option pricing, use the link
below to visit MINIUSA.COM:"

http://intercontent.com/mini/mini17.cfm?jid=1&tid=43&id=319556&pid=5293

* Each new MINI comes with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail

Price (MSRP) listed on its "window sticker." MSRP includes

destination and handling charge of $550 and excludes title,

license, registration, taxes and options. Actual price is

determined by your future, authorized MINI dealer.

pattim3 · January 2002

and I will share them. (Lot's of AM reading!!). While I try (and will) keep my opinions out of this, I do want to iterject one thought. This is not from PR or an "official" Subaru comment.

For Subaru, this is really fast for a concept car to a production vehicle. That being said, they are going to go with well known technoloy in the States (i. e. no dual range tranny). Also, until they get some data on sales, wants, etc., I would expect the price to be on the lower side. If they produced it with too many options (engine), we might end up with a problem.

I think that it will evolve in time to provide more of what you folks want. We'll see.

Anyway, as always, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm trying to get caught up, but my home PC is still acting up. It's leaving letters off my typing. This one post is taking me 5 minutes so far. I'll be reading, but I might have to respond from work in my "free" time.

Stephen - e-mail me at work with your address??

Patti

hypov · January 2002

Patti- think you need a new keyboard. :-)

The Baja unveiling was quite, (me, myself and I), anti-climax. Hey, as it is, Subaru has always been "measure twice cut once"... "test the foundation - if it will hold a skyscraper, built it".

gibble gabble off

-Dave

tincup47 · January 2002

I figured as much about the Baja and have been trying to make the same points. The costs for development of new models have to have the sales potential to cover them, along with the knowledge of the technologies involved. As this model is a new direction for SOA at this time, I certainly understand the caution in how the vehicle was equipped and priced. All the negative feedback that SOA received about the price points on the VDC from the media and traditional Subaru customers certainly justifies the caution on the Baja.

paisan · January 2002

Have you been experimenting with those illegal drugs again? haaa

Hope to see you friday night at The 48hrs Kickoff.

-mike

qbrozen · January 2002

Towing capacity and carrying capacity are not on my list of problems here. Like Mike already pointed out, you can get aftermarket suspension bits. If you want a stiffer ride and be able to carry more weight, then do it. suspension is not the great equalizer here. The problem, as I see it, is power. I am not happy with the oomph of our Forester and my main reason for changing will be power. Having the open space of the pickup bed would be the second reason.

So, I guess in defense of the vehicle, my ONLY complaint is the engine. And how tough can it be to offer the H6 when is already exists and can be had on the vehicle which served as the launching pad for the Baja?

Well, maybe next year.

paisan · January 2002

I'm convinced it has to be the supply of the H6 engines. Why on earth would they not offer the H6 in the entire Legacy/Outback/Baja line as an option, if it were readily available? To be in the minds of SOA would be nice right about now.

Unfortunately, even with the H6 the towing will still be limited for some reason un-beknownst to us laymen

-mike

tincup47 · January 2002

The H6 would probably also raise the price to a level that projected sales would not have justified producing the vehicle. All decisions on contenting vehicles have that concern as a major component.

paisan · January 2002

It could be a $1000 option, bam you stick it in for people who want to drop the extra money. If they didn't think that the projected sales could survive with that $1000 Option, they shouldn't be making it in the first place! Arrrrrrrr!

rsholland · January 2002

The things we're asking for *IS* well-known technology. We're not asking for new untried items. Everything already exists from the Subaru parts bin, and has been for years.

As far as the H-6 is concerned, I expected that to be an option, not standard. I'm most bummed out about that not being available and the Class I towing.

I can understand being cautious, but, IMO, Subaru is too cautious, so much so as to turn off potential customers.

Bob

bluesubie · January 2002

For some reason, I thought that the new engine plant at SIA would be building H6 and H4's. According to this press release from 2000, it will be building H4's:

http://www.glpi.org/expansion/pressreleases/subaru_auto.html

"SIA Subaru Engine Assembly Operation

-$167,490,000 in estimated capital investment after final step

-255 estimated new jobs created after final step

-Projected starting hourly Production Associate wage rate: approximately $14.00 per hour

-Target for Start of Production: First Quarter of 2002

-Estimated production volume of 114,000 engines per year after final step

-Plant will assemble horizontally-opposed four cylinder engines for Subaru Legacys and Outbacks built at SIA"

-Dennis

tincup47 · January 2002

I certainly see the reason for caution, no other manufacturer has been ultimately successful with car based pickups. Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, and VW, along with Subaru have built and eventually cancelled these vehicles due to sales not justifying continuing production. If Subaru prices the Baja in the upper 20's-lower 30's they then will compete not only with the smaller true pickups, they also go against the Sport-Trac, which is also truck based. I'm sure they project a no more than a few thousand sales per month, and at that rate the additional expense would not enable offering the H6 as a cost effective option, along with diverting supply from other Legacy models, especially the GT which would probably benefit sales the most with the addition of the H6.

kate5000 · January 2002

As far as looks are concerned, I reserve my opinion until I see one "live". Cladding on the back is a bit too much, I agree.

Baja does have some "coolness" in it, which may appeal to a biking/surfing crowd who wants something "different". Yet it's so resemblinbg of the Outback Sedan with chopped off trunk lid, that the "different" factor may not play out. At least, they (SOA) should have changed headlights and taillights, to create a different look.

Bummer about not having H6 as an option. It worries me, because it might indicate Subaru has some seriour problems with production or quality of H6 engines.

All in all, I'm sitting put, waiting for new Forester'03. Hubby is dead sick from his Accord, but Baja wouldn't cut it for him, I suspect.

As far as sales are concerned, you never really know, until market speaks for itself. It seemed like Outback SUS was a silly idea, yet they sold quite well.

rsholland · January 2002

I understand where you're coming from, being in the industry. However, no matter how much you defend Subaru's actionsbottom line is: the overwhelming majority of the people here don't like what they see.

Now you can reason with us all you want, it doesn't make any difference. We still don't like the Baja, as it currently exists. It reminds me of the very first Toyota T100close, but no cigar.

Bob

nowakj66 · January 2002

A distraction from the raging baha debate . . . .

Any details on the forthcoming '03 Legacy / Outback to be intro'd in Chicago in February?

I am close to buying 02 LL Bean 6.

The dealer says only the facia will change in 03.

Would be nice if they added that World Rally Blue color with silver cladding too. Available in Australia now but I am not sure about here.

It does look patriotic -- red tail lights, light bottom with blue top -- saves you from putting a flag in the window to tell other motorists that although you drive "one of 'dem fer'ren jalopies" you still love the good ol' US of A!

:-)

tincup47 · January 2002

I understand that, just trying to give some reasons for their decision based on knowledge of my industry. I also realize that while I identify and share the the same enthusiasm of Automobiles that most of the posters on Edmunds, that as enthusiasts we represent a very small percentage of people who purchase vehicles and manufacturers will make decisions that they feel will satisfy the majority of their target market.

rsholland · January 2002

I agree, but you have to admit that the Baja is a niche vehicle within a niche market. It won't appeal to the mass audience in any case. Most of the people who would consider this vehicle are more likely to be "car buffs" of some sort.

I very much doubt that you will get "plain vanilla" customers looking at this vehicle. The Baja web site spends a great deal of effort trying to attract young, outdoorsy types.

While it's true they may not garner many WRX-types, they're hoping, I'm sure, to attract Xterra-types, and Explorer Sport Trac-typesand those folks will see right through this Baja masquerade.

Bob

bluesubie · January 2002

I believe that Subaru won't have any problems at all. Like Chuck said, the internet is mainly more hardcore enthusiasts.
Take SUV's. What percentage of people use them for what they were intended for? Maybe 10%?

-Dennis

rsholland · January 2002

that Subaru Product chart that was posted in November, Subaru expects to sell 24,000 for the "03 MY. Does everybody think that's a realistic goal?

Bob

paisan · January 2002

IMHO the Baja is another VX vehicle. It will be there for the "Gee-wow let's go look at a subaru" effect. Once they get into the dealership they'll realize that the Forester or Outback is what they had overlooked in their quest for a new car and subaru will get spin-off sales from it. That is what the VX did for the Rodeo, people came in looked at the VX saw it was in-practical and bought the rodeo instead.

-mike

bluesubie · January 2002

Bob, the SIA Automotive press release link I posted above says 2,000 per month.

So does the Car Connection link that Serge put in the Baja forum.

-Dennis

rsholland · January 2002

think there is a bigger market for the Baja than there is for the WRX? Apparently SOA does.

Bob

tincup47 · January 2002

There probably is. 2,000 per month is about 4 per dealer per month, if Subaru has about 500 dealers as I have read. The WRX, while I find it a very exciting vehicle, was always looked at and marketed as a limited production vehicle. I don't think Subaru would have given the Baja the go ahead if they thought it would have sold less than the WRX.

FrankMc · January 2002

and while the points are valid, remember that a failure to GM (for example) would be a hit to Subaru. Oldsmobile, which got dumped had larger sales than Subaru (in the US). I think that Baja will find a market, and if it does well they can always expand the product options. The extra cladding is how the market is moving lately, (remember what cladding did to Legacy sales!)

Frank

rsholland · January 2002

the folks over at the I-Club are none too fond of the Baja either.

I haven't seen a whole lot of press coverage on the Baja. Certainly nowhere as much coverage as new mass-market vehicles such as the Honda Pilot has gotten. Speaking of the Pilot, visit that forum here at Edmunds, and you get the impression that folks would sell their first-born to get one! Quite a difference from what has been posted here regarding the Baja.

Bob

locke2c · January 2002

I seriously doubt the Baja will hit those numbers. The WRX would be hard pressed to hit them and it's far more popular-- probably cheaper too.

Even if Baja sales were brisk initially, I'd be concerned about cannibalization of Outback sales and also look at the numbers after 9-12 months. Like I said before, I'm completely shocked that there's no option for more power-- whatever the form, although the H6 does seem obvious. Even if the bet is that most people buy a 165HP version, you need the higher powered version to drive interest and get good reviews.

Plus it's fugly. I have always hated the two-tone Outback thing, but yellow over silver brings it to a whole new level of distaste. The overhangs are ridiculous, and a front end that doesn't look exactly like a Legacy/Outback might have been a smart idea.

-Colin

Karen_S · January 2002

2003 Subaru Baja

KarenS
Host<Owner's Clubs

armac13 · January 2002

the 2003 Forester will be at the Toronto Auto Show February 15. 2002 according to:

http://www.autoshow.ca/exhibitors/subaru.htm

Ross

ateixeira · January 2002

Mike: it UBS (United Buying Service IIRC) for that Odyssey.

Expedition looks to be improved for the way people use it.

Mini is cool, but it's heavy, and that seems to counter the whole point of it. I guess it could still be nimble, we'll see.

Can't wait to see that Forester! February?

-juice

ateixeira · January 2002

Well, to me the biggest surprise is that they kept most of the cladding! I really thought they would tone it down to Outback levels, but I was wrong. The yellow exists to attract attention. Dealers will probably get just one and then display it (like paisan said just for the shock effect), but sell the red/black/silver ones, which look much better. Those look OK. The top of the C-pillar could have been better sorted, and the cladding does go a bit too high around the bed. At least the stuff is harder to ding and scratch.

Boy, I think no H6 is a mistake. Big time. I think we pretty much all agree on that. The extra torque from it makes it more important than a low range or anything else. Let's hope it's available next year.

Equipment levels are great, moonroof & CD. I'm glad they offer auto and manual, too. The mid gate looks like you might be able to slip in a sheet of plywood at an angle, like those surf boards, if you have the bed extender (another plus). So the mid-gate is a plus.

I think I'll win that towing pool we created, i.e. no change from the Outback.

So, bottom line is pricing. It will be the key to success, no doubt. OB Ltd wagon is $26,820 with freight, and that sounds high. OB sedan is auto only, so the price is also above $26k.

So no, it will not sell 24k per year, not at that MSRP. Most people will want auto and that will put it above $27k, where competitors offer V6 engines.

What will happen? They will sell for invoice price within a month, and then a $750 incentive will appear for the Legacy line and that includes the Baja. That would make the street price about $24k, which means it'll survive.

But it won't thrive, not without an H6, and for only $1k extra, not any more than that.

-juice

kens · January 2002

I agree with the comments made about the Baja. There could have been lots more done to it to make it more attractive. I'm sure they're going to be testing the waters and adding features based on demand.

One positive from the Baja release is that Subaru is generating new products on a consistent basis. Since the the late 90's we've seen new model intros as well as redesigns of existing ones. It certainly does project the image of a car company that's constantly trying to innovate.

So, any more news on the 2003 Forester?

Ken

rsholland · January 2002

about the Forester debuting in Canada! However, after seeing the Baja, I'm not going to set my hopes too high, only to be disappointed again. I'm sure it will be better than the current one, I just won't expect any major breakthroughs. I hope that I'm wrong, and will be pleasantly surprised...

Bob

ateixeira · January 2002

Testing the water may not be a smart approach, though. Here's what will happen: the press will drive them with the H4, and then call them overpriced for the $26 grand or so they will cost. Initial attention will fade in about a year.

Just then, the H6 arrives, with noone at the dealerships to notice.

Subaru has been on a roll, I'm the first to say it. From 1995 until now, it seems like they could not miss. Outback, Forester, WRX, all major hits. The H6 could have been better, but they've now reached a price point where they can sell.

The Baja breaks that winning streak, though. You gotta remember competitors bring V6 power to a class where torque is everything. The H6 would have been a major contender.

Get the H6 out there, and don't wait a full year, Subaru!

-juice

rsholland · January 2002

it sure reinforces Subaru's quirky (and sometimes hard to understand) image, that's for sure.

Bob

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