out of that link, was that Subaru is definitely moving upscale. They mentioned introducing a "premium" compact for 2006; this must be the next generation Impreza. They mention a "premium" Legacy. They mention a "flagship" model above the Legacy. They mention a "sporty" car. This could be the flagship, and it could also be a SVX replacement.
As we all know, timing is everything. The timing of the original SVX was all wrong, in that the Subaru "brand" was at that time pretty much considered a low-rent, so the introduction of the "expensive" SVX was doomed from the start. That's not the case any more, so the timing for a new SVX, in a few years, could be perfect.
Bob: can you grab those and photo-chop an actual image of them? I guess that would be hard without a starting point.
They sort of look like Fiats, which is appropriate given the new design chief.
$40 grand for a flagship? Guess so, but the practical side of me wants any such model to succeed. I guess if it's limited production, fine, but that means I couldn't afford it!
Just that I spent the better part of an evening last week crawling over, under and around a couple of Avantis taking pics for my newsletter. I've driven one and they're a blast for their time, but just like every 1960's high-performance American car they're woefully underbraked, even with the Bendix front discs.
They used to be on my short list of cars I lusted for but now they seem a little too high maintenance and short in supply to be anything other than trailer queens. Still if I ever hit the lottery...
By the time the new Subaru "flagship" arrives, the WRX, WRX-STi, Forester turbo and Legacy turbo will be on the market; so how do you top that lineup?
Obviously, Subaru will have made a name for itself as a "performance brand," so what form should the flagship take? my guess is that it will be a luxury GT—but with very high performance capability. Think of a modern SVX on steriods.
I think it will be loaded with all sorts of luxury and high-tech widgets—and that it will also be very controversial; afterall it is a Subaru...
I just hope it will be knockout in terms of looks.
over on the I-Club, who sounded like he got some inside info, says that the USA-spec turbo Forester will only be available with an automatic! Major bummer if that's true.
Oh, no way! Are you kidding me? It should be the other way around.
Ask most people that have driven an automatic WRX - they are usually not that impressed by it. Re-tuned or not, the Forester is heavier and will only be worse.
Major bummer. Guess I'll be polishing Sandy for a little while longer than I thought.
That doesn't make any sense. Negates the fuel savings and most of the power increase over the 2.5l. Why would anyone want to spend close to $30K for a car that would probably be less fun to drive than the NA manual Forester?
One way Subaru can make the turbo affordable is by selling it in the manual version.
I'd rather get a WRX wagon +trailer for that money. Or get a WRX wagon and rent a Jeep when I feel like it. Or get the NA manual Forester and put a supercharger in =D
I bet you can come up with more examples of money better spent
I agree about turbochargers. Save them for the WRX and lighter sport models. Supercharging the 2.5 L H4 makes more sense, particularly for the Forester, which is sold mostly with the automatic transmission. At that rate, Subaru might as well ramp up production of the H6. Close in weight & power, quieter and fewer moving parts. My Ideal Fancy Forester or Fast GT would have the H6, with 6 speed manual or 5 speed automatic.
do you think Subaru should "evolve" the Outback into a vehicle not unlike the Forester, but larger and with 3 rows of seats, similar to the new Honda Pilot?
As we all know the Impreza and Forester are kissin' cousins; should the same be true of the Legacy and Outback? Or, should the Outback remain just a different flavor of the Legacy lineup, as it currently is?
It's been reported that the next-generation Legacy will be larger than the current model. Therefore doing a quasi-Pilot-like vehicle may very well be possible.
I agree that this model should be offered with a manual too. However, virtually all SUVs these days are automatics. Subaru may just not want to buck this trend. If it is only available with an automatic, I hope it at least has the Sport-Shift, and will debut the new 5EAT (with a dual-range feature!).
How about an "Outback Forester," based on the Legacy platform. It could have 3 rows and the H-6 standard. Although I'm a big fan of manual transmissions, put in the 5speed auto so people could tow!
IMHO it could be Subaru's answer to the midsize vehicle they need and would compete with the Honda Pilot and the Toyota Highlander.
While I'd love to see the mega-Forester you guys envision, I think the car Subaru needs even more is a truly competitive Legacy sedan. I'd like to see them upgrade the Legacy, give it much sharper styling and offer it as a legitimate alternative to Camry and Accord. People here have written that the Legacy L and GT are Subaru's secret cars, but to me the Legacy Sedan is the real obscure offering.
I agree with an Outback Forester -- but with another name, of course. On thinking about it, who wants a Subie minivan anyway? Subaru has this sporty image going -- WRX generating all this excitement and everything, plus the Outback image (No rules, just right...wait, that's the other Australian thing), then the new sportier looking Forester, which is poised to go turbo, even. Put a Forester-like body on the Legacy platform with a manual H-6/3L (or bigger). And sleek it up a little -- maybe use some of that proposed Forester styling we were debating so avidly(SUV vs. speed-wagon, remember?). Give it Highlander/Pilot cargo volume and that ever-important third bench. And keep the handling associated with Forester -- putting the "sport" back in "sport-utility". Hey, there's a slogan! AWD, boxer engine, sleek but cargo-friendly, agile and quick: "We put the sport back in sport-utility vehicles!". "HEY, you can pay all that money for a Cayenne if you want to, but I got my Subaru X (Outback Forester) for half what a Cayenne costs, and it's a blast!"
We should come up with a name. Is Habanero too obvious? Jalapeno? (I don't know how to make an N with a quiggly here) Hurricane? Hurrican? Wolverine?
I agree with Storyteller, too. The Legacy needs promotion, big time. Sedan and wagon -- Outback without the image -- that's the problem. All these people driving Outbacks -- I'd bet 95% would be as happy, but for the image thing, with a Legacy. Make the Legacy just as sexy, but in another way. Rugged Outback. X Legacy. James Bond needs to drive a Legacy...or something like that. Legacy needs a spokesperson that symbolizes the true nature of the Legacy -- the superhero within the everyday package. Is Spiderman old enough to drive? Could we get Batman out of the Batmobile?
Do you see this an an addition to the line, or something the Outback should evolve into?
My thinking is that the current Outback should evolve into this type of vehicle. That way the Legacy and the Outback could focus more on their own respective audiences. As it now stands the Outback is nothing more than a "trick" Legacy. if it were allowed to evolve into more of a larger Forester-type vehicle (with 3 rows of seats), I think it would find a larger still market.
I would keep the Outback name, since there is a lot of (positive) equity associated with it.
In my universe I'd keep the Outback and add a vehicle to the line. The Outback is selling great and has it's niche. Other manufacturers are "going Outback" and one-upping. So I'd say, one-up the Outback. But, in addition to the Outback, go bigger, like Highlander/Pilot -- go more SUVish, with a Outback/Forester.
Though I can see your point about using Outback's name to carry forward with the marketing momentum. But I think that Outback-today going to Big-Boxy Outback is too much of a phase-shift. The current Outback has a shark-thing going -- it's way sleeker than Forester, even the new sleeker Forester. A boxy Outback would be too jarring. like taking a name and putting it on a totally different vehicle. So, I say keep the current Outback, and take it forward with updating that's logical and evolutionary. And add a new vehicle with its own styling and image -- play off the Outback, but keep them both. Outback's bigger sibling, not angry Outback goes Hulk.
Jeep has a great image. It is just "Jeep". You can have a rugged go anywhere vehicle that's rough as a corn cob, and rougher the better. And you can have a go to the opera Jeep, all leather and wood interior. I worked on the development of golf course that was going to be marketed to the CEO level of corporate executives and retired founders of big corporations. The developer (a 50ish "retired" founder of a bio-tech corporation) needed vehicles to take his new "friends" out to see what was being built, and he chose Grand Cherokees fully tricked out (he bought a mini-fleet of them). Jeep can do that -- market to people that Ford and GMC could reach only by turning their SUV's into Lincolns and Caddies.
If Subaru could get that bullet-proof niche image -- an image that plays both ends of the spectrum -- it would be golden. And I think that Outback was trying to reach that image. Toyota got some of that magic with Landcruiser -- it was a jeep-knock off kind of thing that evolved into leather and wood opera cruiser.
or whatever it would be called would probably answer my wife's plea for a mini-van sized vehicle in our fleet. The 3rd row and additional cargo room are 'necessities' to her, even if she doesn't need to use them all the time. I would be happy too, since she'd still have a Subaru (instead of an Oddy or MPV). I have a license plate idea for it when it does arrive - Subear2.
Me, I'll just quietly wait for my dark blue B4 or H6 GT Sedan. :-)
I have a name for the Outback Forester! The Mescalero! Pretty good huh?! Huh! Subaru Mescalero. Just flows off the tongue.
I rejected Chiracahua, Jicarillo, Lipon, and Apache. Commanche was taken. Navajo was used, and their image is too peaceful now anyway -- though they were very much like the Apache once upon a time(even closely related linguistically and historically). Santa Fe is taken and the other cities in NM don't play well. The Farmington? The Truchas? (it means trout) The Antelope Wells? The Alamogordo? (fat cottonwood) The Gallop? The Rosewell? No. There's the El Paso, of course -- but have you ever been to El Paso? Don't name a car after El Paso. The Chihuahua (The Mexican state just across the border)? Chihuahua's slogan is the Big State -- but no...don't name a car the Chihuahua.
Jornada...maybe. It means journey. The Gila? Maybe...but it's not pronounced the way it's spelled and it is a bit monsterous.
No -- Mescalero! It sounds rugged and ready for anything, with a flair. Subaru Mescalero.
Mescalero -- and I like the people too. But OK. No Mescalero.
How about... Can't think of anything. Oh, well. Something more neutral. Like Forester or Outback or Legacy...but not the aforementioned. Something like a jelly donut...but not a jelly donut. Timberon? Potenza?
I think subaru should make an H6 based Crossover vehicle but add some features to it not seen on most crossovers such as sliding side doors, and dual range transfer cases. This would give them their niche status while still getting into the game.
Bob: I say keep the current flavor Outback, and offer another model, maybe a Grand Forester, to compete with the Pilot.
Why both? Because the Outback is a hot seller, so it would be a huge risk to drop their meat-and-potatoes model. The Legacy isn't well known enough to fill the current Outback's shoes.
Look at the Outback Sport and the Forester - they co-exist and combined sales are much higher than sales of either model alone. So the model worked on the compact segment, do the same for the mid-size segment.
Maybe they could re-name the current Forester as the "Forester Sport". Call the big model simply "Forester". Same as they do for Outback and Outback Sport.
If it's just another wagon/suv it won't fly. It needs to be different which is why I throw in things like sliding side doors, and other nifty features to set it apart from the run of the mill crossover.
I agree about the quirky part, but sliding doors say minivan in this extremely image-conscious market.
Give it a double-decker look, with a more pronounced raised roof towards the back, like an Outback but more so, or like a Disco with those extra windows. Make the H6 standard, with seating for 7. AWD, of course. Give it the Aussie low range just to make it quirky.
A Bean carries a street price of $26k, so there is room for a big brother to that model. They could even have a VDC model, but it would likely peek into the 30s in price.
Maybe work in a garage door like side doors or something? That is kinda whacky but it could work? I like the raised roof idea to make it more "outback/downunder/african safari" looking.
Nah, just give it a wide opening door, like the 80 degree opening on the rear door of the new Ram.
If the wheelbase is long enough, make the door square, i.e. with no wheel well intrusion, to facilitate entry into the 3rd row. For example, the Suburban has this but the Tahoe does not. This could also allow the rear window to open all the way.
And what about a 3rd row window that can open? I don't think anyone has one. The MPV stands out from other minivans with a 2nd row opening window.
A hill holder clutch, full-time AWD, low range, and car-based seating for 7 with practical access and acres of windows would be incredibly quirky and unique. Totally Subaru, in other words.
Cimarron,, Claymore, Canonero (Like Canyonero w/ squiggle over the first N), Alto (opposite of Baja) or Altero, Arroyo, Estancia, Dureza, Arete, Rhino (my wife's favorite), Outfitter (again, my wife's suggestion: They have the OUTback don't they? Well, OUTfitter!), Khyber, Caliber.
Haha! That would be great! And they already have a theme song done for them (for those who don't know, its from the Simpsons). I have it on CD right here in front of me. Love that song.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"Canyonero" was the name given to the fictional SUV driven by road rager Marge Simpson on Fox's "The Simpsons." The episode featured a full-length Canyonero ad which lampooned all the silly reasons people have been buying SUVs. The pitchman was the show's resident TV-kiddie-show host, Krusty the Clown.
Some of the ad lyrics included: "smells like a steak and seats thirty-five," "Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts," and the voice-over disclaimer, "The Federal Highway Commission [sic] has ruled the Canyonero unsafe for highway or city driving."
Should also get the Crock Hunter as a spokesman. I can see a cool commercial coming out of that "Oh no, looks like the Ford Explorer is getting pulled out of a ditch by the Grand Forester AGAIN." "His family is gonna be awfully upset when he gets home"
Comments
(thumbs up)
-Colin
Stephen
Stephen
-mike
As we all know, timing is everything. The timing of the original SVX was all wrong, in that the Subaru "brand" was at that time pretty much considered a low-rent, so the introduction of the "expensive" SVX was doomed from the start. That's not the case any more, so the timing for a new SVX, in a few years, could be perfect.
Bob
They sort of look like Fiats, which is appropriate given the new design chief.
$40 grand for a flagship? Guess so, but the practical side of me wants any such model to succeed. I guess if it's limited production, fine, but that means I couldn't afford it!
-juice
Are you talking about those drawings? Yes, but I won't have time today. I have some "real" work to deal with.
Bob
-juice
Ed
Bob
They used to be on my short list of cars I lusted for but now they seem a little too high maintenance and short in supply to be anything other than trailer queens. Still if I ever hit the lottery...
Ed
Obviously, Subaru will have made a name for itself as a "performance brand," so what form should the flagship take? my guess is that it will be a luxury GT—but with very high performance capability. Think of a modern SVX on steriods.
I think it will be loaded with all sorts of luxury and high-tech widgets—and that it will also be very controversial; afterall it is a Subaru...
I just hope it will be knockout in terms of looks.
Bob
I like the SVX and realize it was all about poor timing, they were about 5 years too early to catch on.
-juice
Bob
Ask most people that have driven an automatic WRX - they are usually not that impressed by it. Re-tuned or not, the Forester is heavier and will only be worse.
Major bummer. Guess I'll be polishing Sandy for a little while longer than I thought.
-juice
One way Subaru can make the turbo affordable is by selling it in the manual version.
I'd rather get a WRX wagon +trailer for that money. Or get a WRX wagon and rent a Jeep when I feel like it. Or get the NA manual Forester and put a supercharger in =D
I bet you can come up with more examples of money better spent
- D.
John
As we all know the Impreza and Forester are kissin' cousins; should the same be true of the Legacy and Outback? Or, should the Outback remain just a different flavor of the Legacy lineup, as it currently is?
It's been reported that the next-generation Legacy will be larger than the current model. Therefore doing a quasi-Pilot-like vehicle may very well be possible.
Inquiring minds want to know...
Bob
Bob
IMHO it could be Subaru's answer to the midsize vehicle they need and would compete with the Honda Pilot and the Toyota Highlander.
Michael
Steve
We should come up with a name. Is Habanero too obvious? Jalapeno? (I don't know how to make an N with a quiggly here) Hurricane? Hurrican? Wolverine?
Legacy needs a spokesperson that symbolizes the true nature of the Legacy -- the superhero within the everyday package. Is Spiderman old enough to drive? Could we get Batman out of the Batmobile?
My thinking is that the current Outback should evolve into this type of vehicle. That way the Legacy and the Outback could focus more on their own respective audiences. As it now stands the Outback is nothing more than a "trick" Legacy. if it were allowed to evolve into more of a larger Forester-type vehicle (with 3 rows of seats), I think it would find a larger still market.
I would keep the Outback name, since there is a lot of (positive) equity associated with it.
Bob
Though I can see your point about using Outback's name to carry forward with the marketing momentum. But I think that Outback-today going to Big-Boxy Outback is too much of a phase-shift. The current Outback has a shark-thing going -- it's way sleeker than Forester, even the new sleeker Forester. A boxy Outback would be too jarring. like taking a name and putting it on a totally different vehicle. So, I say keep the current Outback, and take it forward with updating that's logical and evolutionary. And add a new vehicle with its own styling and image -- play off the Outback, but keep them both. Outback's bigger sibling, not angry Outback goes Hulk.
If Subaru could get that bullet-proof niche image -- an image that plays both ends of the spectrum -- it would be golden. And I think that Outback was trying to reach that image. Toyota got some of that magic with Landcruiser -- it was a jeep-knock off kind of thing that evolved into leather and wood opera cruiser.
Steve
Me, I'll just quietly wait for my dark blue B4 or H6 GT Sedan. :-)
-Brian
I rejected Chiracahua, Jicarillo, Lipon, and Apache. Commanche was taken. Navajo was used, and their image is too peaceful now anyway -- though they were very much like the Apache once upon a time(even closely related linguistically and historically). Santa Fe is taken and the other cities in NM don't play well. The Farmington? The Truchas? (it means trout) The Antelope Wells? The Alamogordo? (fat cottonwood) The Gallop? The Rosewell? No. There's the El Paso, of course -- but have you ever been to El Paso? Don't name a car after El Paso. The Chihuahua (The Mexican state just across the border)? Chihuahua's slogan is the Big State -- but no...don't name a car the Chihuahua.
Jornada...maybe. It means journey. The Gila? Maybe...but it's not pronounced the way it's spelled and it is a bit monsterous.
No -- Mescalero! It sounds rugged and ready for anything, with a flair. Subaru Mescalero.
Bob
How about... Can't think of anything. Oh, well. Something more neutral. Like Forester or Outback or Legacy...but not the aforementioned. Something like a jelly donut...but not a jelly donut.
Timberon? Potenza?
-mike
Why both? Because the Outback is a hot seller, so it would be a huge risk to drop their meat-and-potatoes model. The Legacy isn't well known enough to fill the current Outback's shoes.
Look at the Outback Sport and the Forester - they co-exist and combined sales are much higher than sales of either model alone. So the model worked on the compact segment, do the same for the mid-size segment.
Maybe they could re-name the current Forester as the "Forester Sport". Call the big model simply "Forester". Same as they do for Outback and Outback Sport.
-juice
http://www.subaru.net/prototype/exiga.html
-Dennis
A Pilot EX with leather breaks $30k and will demand full retail, or even markups, for a while, so there is demand.
-juice
-mike
Give it a double-decker look, with a more pronounced raised roof towards the back, like an Outback but more so, or like a Disco with those extra windows. Make the H6 standard, with seating for 7. AWD, of course. Give it the Aussie low range just to make it quirky.
A Bean carries a street price of $26k, so there is room for a big brother to that model. They could even have a VDC model, but it would likely peek into the 30s in price.
-juice
-mike
It would just be for effect - put it in all the ads and then only offer it on maybe 10% of the cars manufactured.
The Grand Forester Safari Edition.
-juice
I think that may make it look like a commercial vehicle.
Maybe open upwards like the tailgate ala the lambo and ferraris.
-Dave
If the wheelbase is long enough, make the door square, i.e. with no wheel well intrusion, to facilitate entry into the 3rd row. For example, the Suburban has this but the Tahoe does not. This could also allow the rear window to open all the way.
And what about a 3rd row window that can open? I don't think anyone has one. The MPV stands out from other minivans with a 2nd row opening window.
A hill holder clutch, full-time AWD, low range, and car-based seating for 7 with practical access and acres of windows would be incredibly quirky and unique. Totally Subaru, in other words.
-juice
-Dennis
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Some of the ad lyrics included: "smells like a steak and seats thirty-five," "Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts," and the voice-over disclaimer, "The Federal Highway Commission [sic] has ruled the Canyonero unsafe for highway or city driving."
Unsavory associations.
Ed
Cascade
Koala
How about the Subaru Mike?
We have the Outback LL Bean Edition, The Forester (Crocodile) Dundee Edition could work.
Badging: Crocodile head rising above the name Dundee.
-Dave
-mike