When Jamie is driving one of the two GC8 style Imprezas she has for rallying, she is sponsored by Carter Subaru (admittedly, a dealer and not directly corp SOA) and Smart Service (a premiere Soobie repair svc in Seattle), amongst others. Jamie is also now working @ Carter as the webgal for their parts svc and aftermarket program w/MRT out of Australia.
I believe it was mentioned on this topic a few months back that the '03 Legacy GT (known as the 2.5GT I believe) will have the sport-shift AT and VTD. So, autostick, sport-shift, they mean the same - a manually controlled AT. I just hope it actually shifts better than the ChryCo AutoStick, which is SLOOOOOW IMHO.
Just got the latest issue of BYCLICING in the mail, and on the opening spread is a double-page ad for the new '03 Outback. In it was mentioned a new softer-riding suspension system. So it does sound like the new Outback (and Legacy) got the suspension upgrades that Japanese and Aussie models just got.
I'm assuming it's the same upgrade that the Japanese, Aussies and NZ got. Unfortunately I don't remember the specifics. I tried tracking down the Japanese/Aussie/NZ announcements, but I can't find them.
I ran across the Auto Asia article today and saw that it was already noted here. I was quite intrigued by the article.
Assuming that the Baja is not one of the five, and I think there is good reason to so assume, I thing that what is likely (and what is missing from the current line-up) are the following:
1. A mini-van. 2. A "premium" sedan. 3. A bigger SUV/ SUV substitute. 4. A two-seater sports car. 5. A small hatchback; or 6. In the alternative to the small car, a dedicated off-roader (which, of course, would be more than street legal, and most of which would ever see a trail, but the potentiality of off-road use would be important).
1, 2, and 3 could all share the same platform, engine selection, etc. And if needed, a turbo could be bolted on for a super-premium. The two-seater could use the Impreza platform and the engines then currently in the Impreza/WRX, with the addition of some sort of removable lid and some snazzy styling. The hatch-back could be put on a current small platform.
A smaller car is needed in the line-up as the entry level offering. Get the young to purchase Subaru right out of the box. One of the reasons we ended up with a Subaru was our awareness of the brand through my wife's first car, a Justy, which she loved and drove like a rally car.
The mini-van and bigger SUV could be functionally interchangeable, but there will always be people who'd rather have one over the other. And there are and will be Subaru people who want to move up to something bigger and with more power for towing.
The "premium" sedan would be the outlet for those that would buy a tricked out Legacy, but want more room and more glitz -- witness the Outback sedan phenomenon.
If the small car is not in the cards, then maybe a more dedicated off-roader: the Subaru version of the Borrego. Put lo and hi range on it and jack it up, with better entrance and exit angles. There seems to be pent-up demand for such a vehicle and it seems to be within the realm of the Subaru image.
<< then maybe a more dedicated off-roader: the Subaru version of the Borrego. Put lo and hi range on it and jack it up, with better entrance and exit angles. There seems to be pent-up demand for such a vehicle and it seems to be within the realm of the Subaru image. >>
I've been saying that for some time. I'd love to see Subaru come out with something that would eat the Jeep Wrangler for lunch.
As to the other models, Subaru (FHI) has already gone on record as saying: a new flagship, a new "premium" small car, and several other models too.
Serious off-roaders want seriously low gears to pick from. Jeep's new Wrangler Rubicon has a low range of something like 4:00 - 1:00. All other Jeeps have a 2:72 - 1:00 ratio. I think the current Subaru low range is in the range of 1:29 - 1:00. It's hardly worth the effort, which maybe one reason why we aren't getting it.
That would be a stupid move, given that "serious offroading" is shrinking rapidly and likely will be all but dead in the US within a few decades. Fewer places to drive--legally-- and less available equipment suitable to the purpose.
"Reasonable" offroad capability is easily attained by vehicles with independent suspension and sophisticated power transfer. That's all a normal consumer needs...
Subaru were to market a Wrangler-like vehicle, it should be marketed first in markets where it makes sense. It should go first to Australia, Africa, Asia, etc., before any North American launch should be considered.
In any case, FHI has shown no interest to date, so it's unlikely we will see such a vehicle.
OK, here's the deal. No criticism of any new ideas for 24 hours, starting now.
The budget is infinite. Bill Gates gave all his money to SoA's R&D unit, and you are in charge. You have more money than you will ever even be able to spend, and you must spend it as fast as possible because the investments are dropping in value rapidly.
Mission: build an off roader. But it's got to be a Subaru, i.e. a quirky niche vehicle.
No bashing, that's the whole idea. What would you like to see?
I'll stick with my request for an H6 and a low range, or just a 6 speed with a crawl gear.
Use a SWB Forester platform. Make it a 2+2, half open, kind of like the Rodeo Sport. Make it very light, give it tons of suspension travel. 235/70R16 tires. Skid plates standard. Tiny over hangs.
• Triple-range 5-speed transmission: High range, tow-haul range (the current low range), and a deep low range.
• 225/70x19.5 wheels and tires. The same size currently available on the Ford F-450/F-550, with an All-Terrain tread pattern. The readily available truck tires would allow for plenty of ground clearance. Also, large diameter tires are excellent off road.
• Long-travel strut suspension, and a wide track for good stability.
• Same 99.4" wheelbase of the Forester.
• Ecto-skeleton type of body construction and/or styled like a street-legal, 4-passenger ATV. Think of Subaru's interpretation of a 1/2 scale Uni-Mog...
I just wanna high-test Legacy with a manual transmission that will run with the BMW 330xi in time for me to replace my '99 2.5GT, 'kay? Say '05 or '06. Autostick is fine as an option, and I don't really care about the engine as long as it hauls [non-permissible content removed] and drives like a Subie should. Wagon version even better, frankly.
I really couldn't care less about a Subie rock crawler, and I think most product planners agree.
hurumph. Guess I'll just have to look for a used WRX wagon when the time comes. ;-) j/k
they have two images in the US. One is the dependable, active-lifestyle outdoorsy thing, the other this emerging performance thing. But I know a LOT of BMW pilots who are switching over, and not just to the WRX. I really honestly think that is the niche to pursue- go after A4 and 330 and C-class instead of Tahoe and Explorer. They don't have hugely deep R&D pockets over at SOA ya know!
Ideal future models would be extensions of the current product line:
Legacy: High-performance model with 6-speed MT, 5-speed manumatic, clutchless manual, whatever. Has to be available as both sedan or wagon. An S4/S6 Avant killer.
Outback: Okay as is, honestly. Maybe do away with sedan version, seems redundant.
Baja: Let it run its course. Better still on Forester chassis with 2 doors - the "true BRAT."
Forester: See my earlier comments. Standard car with two option packages: "Tarmac Pack" (turbo, 17" wheels, stiffer anti-roll bars, basically an STi) and "Gravel Pack" (dual-range, raised suspension, of-road bits). "Contractor Special" option for standard and Gravel Pack, N/A Tarmac Pack.
Impreza/WRX: Keep on keepin' on. STi. Type RA or whatever it is they call the lightened club sport type. All the hottest models should be available as wagons as well. 2.5TS sedan for the frugal. A nice spec sheet for owners to build their own COPO style. Access to the Prodrive goodie bag.
SVX? Maybe. Seems to me it should be a coupe built on the Legacy chassis with whatever hot drivetrain the Legacy sedan and wagon get.
Minivan? I know some will want it. Maybe a three-row "Grand Legacy/Forester" type. Don;t want to waste my energy thinking about it except that maybe it could be the "Contractor Special."
Manumatics for everyone, optional on all product lines except the base model in each range.
Use GM sales network, but please no Chevy/Pontiac WRXes, Buick Legacies or GMC Foresters.
Maybe it's just the town I'm in (Jeep/Chryco engine plant), but Jeeps are everywhere. I don't think even with ample $ that SOA could make a Subie-Jeep survive. We all know it would be quite adequate, but at least around here it would be a tough sell. Why waste the effort when that effort could be put into a well deserving performance niche? (sorry, I'm biased, I really want a dark blue Blitzen
In any event, as I posted earlier, if such a vehicle were to ever occur, it should be marketed first in other markets where these types of vehicles DO make sense. Only if then is if it is successful, should Subaru *consider* a North American launch?
What I threw out there, again, are extensions of the existing product line. Eliminate one model (Outback sedan) maybe two (Baja), add SVX and minivan (maybe). I don't even think this would take an infinite budget.
...trucks are the vehicle of choice in such markets because they are capable, dependable, parts are cheap and commonplace, and they are easy to fix. But remember that this parts issue is pretty critical out there in the boonies. It was Land Rover that was the choice before they got too $$ and cushy, as there was never a bunch of profit in such markets anyway. So in 55 years of motoring these markets have switched vehicles exactly once. I'm not sure a 1st world "new product launch" concept will play in places where tires are hard to come by. Not bashing mind you, just thinking it through.
I think the Chevy Borrego concept is a good start, except it has the wrong badge. So first off it has to be a Subaru.
Next, the Borrego's WRX STi powerplant isn't enough. It isn't appropriate at all to a dual-purpose vehicle that would probably weigh 3500-4000lb... so let's instead source a new H6 and enlarge it to the max design specs-- say from 3.0L to 3.5L. 3.5L still isn't anything amazing, so let's stuff a supercharger on it. Turbochargers are difficult to pass cold-start emissions plus this is all about low-end and midrange anyway. Target HP would be 275-300, which should be easily achieved with a 3.5L 24v H6 and maybe 7psi boost.
Long travel 4 wheel independent suspension with active damping to control body roll on tarmac. Advanced AWD with Subaru's computer-controlled multiplate clutch in the center, and new active differentials front and rear. Push button controls to optimize differential, suspension and ABS performance for tarmac, snow, gravel, sand. Transmission would be CVT or six speed manual (sequential automanual based on it to be offered later).
Seating for five with reasonable cargo room behind the rear seats, and towing capacity of at least 5000lb with trailer brakes. 0-60 in less than 7 seconds (plenty fast for a crossover!), standing quarter mile in under 15. With performance summer tires (not all-terrain or all-season), capable of .90g lateral acceleration. This should be easy with active suspension...
Loosh is right, my dad used to buy fleets for his field offices in Suriname and Belize. They used to buy Land Rovers, but now they pretty much only buy Toyotas. It would be a tough niche to crack.
Subarus were in the UN ordering catalog, though. But when a Forester costs $20 grand and a Land Cruiser costs $25 grand, what would you choose?
They'd have a better chance in Australia, where Subies are already popular.
Nice concept, Colin. But Chevy would steal it! ;-)
I like paddles better than shiftronic, or give us both!
was based on the article stating Subaru would come out with 5 NEW models in five years. I asked myself what NEW models were needed to round out the line -- this being the approach I assumed Subaru would follow. Hence my suggestions: "Premium" sedan; small, entry level vehicle; mini-van; larger SUV; two-seater sports car. Then, if the small car (or any of the others, really,) was not in the cards, the "off-roader" - and I qualified it stating that the "off-roader" would be entirely street-legal, and most of them would only see street duty. My take was entirely market oriented. Most Jeeps only see pavement. And I knew that some or all of my suggestions had been bandied about before: that was why I suggested them -- going for the most likely additions.
Off-roader: choice of two engines, the small one and the big one, say a 2.5 and a 3.0, or one or the other with something bolted on turbo or super-charger. Good approach and exit angles. Choice of tires -- regular, and the biggest you can fit. Lots of travel. Plenty of ground clearance. A body that says off-road. I am particularly partial to the old Broncos myself -- the Jeepest looking ones that seem to be so popular in movies and commercials. Take that basic concept, an open cockpit kind of thing, and swoop it up a little -- 21st Centuryize it. I'm thinking of something that would appeal to a well-heeled college male or 20-something guy who wants to look super-tough and outdoorsy; but a vehicle that could take on a moderate trail or rough back road (jeep-roads we call 'em here), the kind of two track that would rip the guts out of most stock vehicles.
I am not saying a real, honest to goodness off-road, trail-eating machine. Maybe I'm too close to the genuine article here in Las Cruces. There's a huge meet here every year, where the impossible is done on a regular basis, and it is covered by the 4x4 mags. Here a genuine trail-eating machine is not really street legal and it makes a stock Wranger look like a Neon. Stock Wranglers can do more than nearly any other stock 4x4. But a real off-road, trail-eating machine is a whole other animal. There is not market for those. Those are built up. So no solid axles; none of that stuff that makes a vehicle climb like a monkey.
Mr. Clarity strikes again. I wouldn't buy it my own self, seeing as I how I'm saving up for my new Uber-Legacy, but plenty of folks would. And it would play well in Europe too, giving the x5 a run.
Not bad for a guy who lives in the "25th fattest city in the nation" Heh heh heh..... (I'm in #19!! on the cnn.com page today)
It wouldn't surprise me if the Sport-shift makes it's U.S. Impreza debut in an STi, and not even in the base WRX. I believe Mitsubishi has already said that the U.S. will get the detuned EVO with a sport-shift (that's what I read anyway).
Comments
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N28C20621
Jim
Stephen
-Brian
Steve
Bob, juice and paisan posted the info after going to the NY Auto show.
Here are pics on paisan's web page:
http://www.isuzu-suvs.com/events/nyias02/index_4.htm
-Dennis
Jim
Bob
I didn't realize the Legacy had a suspension upgrade. Do you know exactly how it's different?
Ken
Bob
Assuming that the Baja is not one of the five, and I think there is good reason to so assume, I thing that what is likely (and what is missing from the current line-up) are the following:
1. A mini-van.
2. A "premium" sedan.
3. A bigger SUV/ SUV substitute.
4. A two-seater sports car.
5. A small hatchback; or
6. In the alternative to the small car, a dedicated off-roader (which, of course, would be more than street legal, and most of which would ever see a trail, but the potentiality of off-road use would be important).
1, 2, and 3 could all share the same platform, engine selection, etc. And if needed, a turbo could be bolted on for a super-premium. The two-seater could use the Impreza platform and the engines then currently in the Impreza/WRX, with the addition of some sort of removable lid and some snazzy styling. The hatch-back could be put on a current small platform.
A smaller car is needed in the line-up as the entry level offering. Get the young to purchase Subaru right out of the box. One of the reasons we ended up with a Subaru was our awareness of the brand through my wife's first car, a Justy, which she loved and drove like a rally car.
The mini-van and bigger SUV could be functionally interchangeable, but there will always be people who'd rather have one over the other. And there are and will be Subaru people who want to move up to something bigger and with more power for towing.
The "premium" sedan would be the outlet for those that would buy a tricked out Legacy, but want more room and more glitz -- witness the Outback sedan phenomenon.
If the small car is not in the cards, then maybe a more dedicated off-roader: the Subaru version of the Borrego. Put lo and hi range on it and jack it up, with better entrance and exit angles. There seems to be pent-up demand for such a vehicle and it seems to be within the realm of the Subaru image.
I've been saying that for some time. I'd love to see Subaru come out with something that would eat the Jeep Wrangler for lunch.
As to the other models, Subaru (FHI) has already gone on record as saying: a new flagship, a new "premium" small car, and several other models too.
Bob
What does Subaru have in the parts bin for such an off-roader? Let's explore that topic.
Give it the H6, a low range, VTD, and VDC for the ability to manage both axles.
-juice
Bob
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q29512D21
-Dennis
Though if you want Jeep levels you'd need more than just parts bin stuff.
-juice
Serious off-roaders want seriously low gears to pick from. Jeep's new Wrangler Rubicon has a low range of something like 4:00 - 1:00. All other Jeeps have a 2:72 - 1:00 ratio. I think the current Subaru low range is in the range of 1:29 - 1:00. It's hardly worth the effort, which maybe one reason why we aren't getting it.
Bob
-mike
"Reasonable" offroad capability is easily attained by vehicles with independent suspension and sophisticated power transfer. That's all a normal consumer needs...
-Colin
In any case, FHI has shown no interest to date, so it's unlikely we will see such a vehicle.
Bob
Interesting article. I think that's the second one I saw mentioning the Paris intro.
I wonder when the facelift model will hit the US. Hope it's here in time for when I'll be in the market for a new vehicle.
Ken
It's supposed to be on sale in the UK by next January, so North America's introduction should follow shortly.
Bob
I'm surprised that a Subaru employee actually went on record and spoke about it. Maybe SoAus. doesn't have a dungeon. :-)
-Dennis
Bob
Dennis: I'm sure that employee was coached on what to say. My wife does that for a living (and put her boss on News Channel 8 last week).
Definitely wait to see it.
-juice
The budget is infinite. Bill Gates gave all his money to SoA's R&D unit, and you are in charge. You have more money than you will ever even be able to spend, and you must spend it as fast as possible because the investments are dropping in value rapidly.
Mission: build an off roader. But it's got to be a Subaru, i.e. a quirky niche vehicle.
What do you do?
-juice
Ed
I'll stick with my request for an H6 and a low range, or just a 6 speed with a crawl gear.
Use a SWB Forester platform. Make it a 2+2, half open, kind of like the Rodeo Sport. Make it very light, give it tons of suspension travel. 235/70R16 tires. Skid plates standard. Tiny over hangs.
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
• Super-charged 2.5L H-4 engine.
• Triple-range 5-speed transmission: High range, tow-haul range (the current low range), and a deep low range.
• 225/70x19.5 wheels and tires. The same size currently available on the Ford F-450/F-550, with an All-Terrain tread pattern. The readily available truck tires would allow for plenty of ground clearance. Also, large diameter tires are excellent off road.
• Long-travel strut suspension, and a wide track for good stability.
• Same 99.4" wheelbase of the Forester.
• Ecto-skeleton type of body construction and/or styled like a street-legal, 4-passenger ATV. Think of Subaru's interpretation of a 1/2 scale Uni-Mog...
Bob
I really couldn't care less about a Subie rock crawler, and I think most product planners agree.
hurumph. Guess I'll just have to look for a used WRX wagon when the time comes. ;-) j/k
Legacy: High-performance model with 6-speed MT, 5-speed manumatic, clutchless manual, whatever. Has to be available as both sedan or wagon. An S4/S6 Avant killer.
Outback: Okay as is, honestly. Maybe do away with sedan version, seems redundant.
Baja: Let it run its course. Better still on Forester chassis with 2 doors - the "true BRAT."
Forester: See my earlier comments. Standard car with two option packages: "Tarmac Pack" (turbo, 17" wheels, stiffer anti-roll bars, basically an STi) and "Gravel Pack" (dual-range, raised suspension, of-road bits). "Contractor Special" option for standard and Gravel Pack, N/A Tarmac Pack.
Impreza/WRX: Keep on keepin' on. STi. Type RA or whatever it is they call the lightened club sport type. All the hottest models should be available as wagons as well. 2.5TS sedan for the frugal. A nice spec sheet for owners to build their own COPO style. Access to the Prodrive goodie bag.
SVX? Maybe. Seems to me it should be a coupe built on the Legacy chassis with whatever hot drivetrain the Legacy sedan and wagon get.
Minivan? I know some will want it. Maybe a three-row "Grand Legacy/Forester" type. Don;t want to waste my energy thinking about it except that maybe it could be the "Contractor Special."
Manumatics for everyone, optional on all product lines except the base model in each range.
Use GM sales network, but please no Chevy/Pontiac WRXes, Buick Legacies or GMC Foresters.
'Nuf said.
Ed
-Brian
Ed wants it all.
Hmm, maybe I'd hire all the AMG and M staff to Subaru. See what they can churn out. Or acquire ProDrive and turn them into Subaru's STi division.
Loosh: I agree, but I just wanted to let Bob indulge in his whacky fantasy. Oops, I can't say that for another couple of hours! ;-)
-juice
In any event, as I posted earlier, if such a vehicle were to ever occur, it should be marketed first in other markets where these types of vehicles DO make sense. Only if then is if it is successful, should Subaru *consider* a North American launch?
Bob
Besides, I think it was goldencouple, not me, who resurrected this topic.
Bob
Lots of people criticize Subaru, saying you could never go off road. It doesn't matter how many pics we show.
So build something to really shut those people up.
-juice
Gates can keep his dirty money.
Ed
Next, the Borrego's WRX STi powerplant isn't enough. It isn't appropriate at all to a dual-purpose vehicle that would probably weigh 3500-4000lb... so let's instead source a new H6 and enlarge it to the max design specs-- say from 3.0L to 3.5L. 3.5L still isn't anything amazing, so let's stuff a supercharger on it. Turbochargers are difficult to pass cold-start emissions plus this is all about low-end and midrange anyway. Target HP would be 275-300, which should be easily achieved with a 3.5L 24v H6 and maybe 7psi boost.
Long travel 4 wheel independent suspension with active damping to control body roll on tarmac. Advanced AWD with Subaru's computer-controlled multiplate clutch in the center, and new active differentials front and rear. Push button controls to optimize differential, suspension and ABS performance for tarmac, snow, gravel, sand. Transmission would be CVT or six speed manual (sequential automanual based on it to be offered later).
Seating for five with reasonable cargo room behind the rear seats, and towing capacity of at least 5000lb with trailer brakes. 0-60 in less than 7 seconds (plenty fast for a crossover!), standing quarter mile in under 15. With performance summer tires (not all-terrain or all-season), capable of .90g lateral acceleration. This should be easy with active suspension...
Price: $35,000
-Colin
http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_/showall_/id_SUB/doc_sub0207011/article.html
New Aussie Forester now gets 2.5L engine
http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_/showall_/id_SUB/doc_sub0207031/article.html
Toyota may be the vehicle of choice in these markets, but Subaru too, is well respected. I really don't think it's that far of a stretch...
Bob
Subarus were in the UN ordering catalog, though. But when a Forester costs $20 grand and a Land Cruiser costs $25 grand, what would you choose?
They'd have a better chance in Australia, where Subies are already popular.
Nice concept, Colin. But Chevy would steal it! ;-)
I like paddles better than shiftronic, or give us both!
-juice
Put it in a wagon and I'll sign up in spring '04.
Ed
Off-roader: choice of two engines, the small one and the big one, say a 2.5 and a 3.0, or one or the other with something bolted on turbo or super-charger. Good approach and exit angles. Choice of tires -- regular, and the biggest you can fit. Lots of travel. Plenty of ground clearance. A body that says off-road. I am particularly partial to the old Broncos myself -- the Jeepest looking ones that seem to be so popular in movies and commercials. Take that basic concept, an open cockpit kind of thing, and swoop it up a little -- 21st Centuryize it. I'm thinking of something that would appeal to a well-heeled college male or 20-something guy who wants to look super-tough and outdoorsy; but a vehicle that could take on a moderate trail or rough back road (jeep-roads we call 'em here), the kind of two track that would rip the guts out of most stock vehicles.
I am not saying a real, honest to goodness off-road, trail-eating machine. Maybe I'm too close to the genuine article here in Las Cruces. There's a huge meet here every year, where the impossible is done on a regular basis, and it is covered by the 4x4 mags. Here a genuine trail-eating machine is not really street legal and it makes a stock Wranger look like a Neon. Stock Wranglers can do more than nearly any other stock 4x4. But a real off-road, trail-eating machine is a whole other animal. There is not market for those. Those are built up. So no solid axles; none of that stuff that makes a vehicle climb like a monkey.
Not bad for a guy who lives in the "25th fattest city in the nation" Heh heh heh..... (I'm in #19!! on the cnn.com page today)
I believe Mitsubishi has already said that the U.S. will get the detuned EVO with a sport-shift (that's what I read anyway).
-Dennis
That was just my take on a real crossover vehicle, versus one that had 'serious' offroad capability and no practicality.
-Colin
Ken