>>So here's my advice on it - if you want a bit more than your current Legacy has, there are low-pressure turbo options in the states that will give it to you. They also may be more driveable than the B4 because of the low-pressure, low-range torque setup. However, once you have done that, you've set yourself onto an expensive path of suspension and brake and rubber upgrades, and you should remember that.<<
I think folks would like something that was warranted by the manufacturer as well, else we'd all be strapping forced induction systems to our EJ25-powered cars.
This one sounds legit. I bet when the Legacy and Forester turbo arrive, they'll be 2.5s. I also bet the restyled US-spec WRX and STi get turbo 2.5 motors too.
Is it time to take another Subie Crew poll? I say it is. 2.0 or 2.5 future turbos, whaddya think?
I have always thought that if they put the 2.0 turbo into the Legacy, that it wouldn't be different enough to seperate it from the WRX. And that may be one of the reasons that many desire the H6 in the Legacy instead.
A turbo version of the 2.5 H4 would be very nice. What are we estimating the HP and torque numbers to be? Gotta be better than the WRX, otherwise it won't be different enough to the general public.
I saw that on i-club too. I sure hope it is for real!
While I wouldn't argue that the Legacy GT would get a 2.5T, I'm going to say that the WRX keeps the 2.0T.
The one interesting phrase I saw on the article was "symmetrical AWD". That's used heavily in the JDM. I think it would be a great way for Subaru to differentiate themselves from the recent increase in AWD vehicles stateside.
there are just too many rumors about the 2.5 turbo, for it not to be true. My sense is, if we do get it, it will go in all North American-spec models, for the simple reason of streamlining production, certification, etc. I do think it will come in several states of tune, however, depending on the vehicle application.
It may not all come at once. I can see both the 2.0 and 2.5 coexisting for perhaps a couple of years, but I think eventually, they'll all be 2.5 engines.
I would be surprised to see it go into mass production though. Of course, I'm also surprised that they can't / aren't choosing to get the 3.0 H6 into wider production.
I'm not one for predictions, but the Forester with 2.0t is already on sale in the UK as the 2.0XT (hey paisan, there's an XT for you!). I expect that's what we'll see here.
has historically put larger engines in North American Subarus, than those found in other markets. I say we will be among the first—if not the very first—to get the 2.5 turbo.
Subaru was at the very limit last year, so any change in a volume model would mean they pay fines, plus it would hurt their image more than their pockets.
Notice the Baja was certified as a truck? I bet the upcoming big SUW is also a truck. Baja's gas mileage is slightly less than the Outback, so maybe they had to call it a truck or pay fines.
I don't see how a 2.5T can go into mass production in their passenger cars. Trucks, yes. So maybe the Baja will get the 2.5T engine.
Exactly, paisan, but I don't think they did that yet. So maybe the next generations of those?
If it's a low volume model, that's different. 100 Forester turbos would not have much effect on CAFE, which is a weighted average.
So I just don't see that 2.5 turbo going into any high volume models.
Of course, we have to see what fuel efficiency that engine puts out. Maybe a LPT 2.5l with AVCS could make 20/25 mpg, something like that, and not do to much damage to the CAFE numbers.
I dunno if that would fly with the EPA, you'd need to have a reason. The Forester was just redesigned, but they didn't give it removable seats like the CR-V and RAV4.
The Baja can get 20.7mpg, but car fleets have to average 27.5mpg, it's like night and day.
Yeah but juice the 27.5 is some weird theoretical #s. Didn't we figure out that the MPG ratings of the subies would have already put them over the CAFE rating if we went by the MPG sticker ratings?
The 2.0 in the WRX remains because of the "image tie" with the WRC. Whether Subaru will continue with that WRC-link here in the USA... Who knows? They may decide—for real-world driving, the 2.5 may be better for Americans, who love torque and hate turbo lag.
As to gas mileage, the 2.5 turbo may not be any worse than the 2.0. A LPT 2.5T (in the Forester) might be considered high-volume, I'm not sure about he other applications.
what a factory tuned 2.5t would put out horsepower-wise. Well, I just saw an article on a car website about Volvo's (typically a conservative tuner, IIRC) new S60-R, with a 2.5t, and, ready for this.......300 hp. Man, would that motivate a Legacy down the road, or what? I'm beginning to believe these rumors also, I mean the article says SOAustralia had two turbo engines to choose from...doesn't get much clearer, unless they are just plain wrong.
Consider the fact that the WRX sedan is roughly $4K (MSRP) more expensive than a Impreza RS sedan. That being the case, I think you can assume that a similar price spread will occur on turbo Foresters and turbo Legacys. That means these vehicles will probably MSRP around $29K, or so. I don't think, at those prices, that they will be high-volume cars.
In that case I'd rather have a 2.5l LPT with about half that markup. I'm actually hoping, perhaps even in La La Land with these medications, that the XS Premium gets the turbo without much of a price increase at all.
So gimme 200hp but LOTS of low-end torque (220 maybe, at 2500rpm), and I'll let the aftermarket chip that bad boy if that's not enough.
I think the H-6 might even be a more cost-effective solution... I just don't think Subaru has (yet!) the capacity to produce enough H-6s. There's also the image thing too. Turbos are perceived as being more powerful, whereas 6-cylinder engines (w/o turbos) are thought of as being more refined, but not necessarily powerful.
Maybe FHI just can't make high volume H6 engines..
SVX H6 3.3l DOHC 230hp/230lbs = 15K units over 5 model years XT6 H6 2,7l SOHC 145/156lbs = 4K units over 3 model years LLBean/VDC 3.0l DOHC 217hp/???lbs = ?K units
I hope you're wrong. The LL Bean carries a street price of $26k, so the Forester Premium ought to be less than that. My target would be about $24k for a 5M turbo with cloth.
Outgoing 2002s were selling for cheap, in the $22k range. I may have to be very patient.
I don't think the Forester should go the upscale/refinement route. It competes with trucks to even the turbo would seem refined for the class it's in.
I wonder how much of an emissions problem a 2.5 LPT would be. The current 2.0T has LEV status and produces quite a bit of boost.
Maybe with the pre-cat strategy in the WRX, a 2.5 LPT wouldn't have as big an impact on CAFE. It could be Subaru's answer to more power under tight restrictions.
...to develop a 5sp AT, a 6sp MT, and get AVCS on the entire line. I think an 5EAT AVCS 2.5 H4 with a turbo should be capable of getting the same mileage as a NA 4EAT 2.5 H4. Is that a far-fetched thought? That would also differentiate it from the rest of the line and make any price premiums worth it.
What are some of the i-club folks running turbos on 2.5 H4's getting for power?
Aside from the Baja, I think Subaru should maintain their car-based CAFE certification with the Forester. Part of it's appeal is that it's NOT a truck, at least IMO.
There's about a $4K spread between those two, and the only real difference is the turbo engine. That being the case, I would assume that kind of price spread would hold up for other turbo models too.
Ken, can you translate the price difference between the Japanese Forester turbo and the non-turbo models? Can you put that into US dollars? How does it compare to the Japanese WRX turbo vs. the WRX non-turbo over there?
The WRX has the rear LSD, side air bags, keyless, 6CD, and fogs.
The keyless was sold separately for $175 (2002 models). The fogs were $298. I'd guesstimate the rear LSD is worth $400, and the side air bags also about $400. Another $520 for the 6CD (a la carte price on Legacys).
So that justifies about $1793, let's round that to $1800. The turbo engine would be the other $2200 worth.
But more importantly, Subaru has been pricing models below expectations, including the WRX and the Baja. I hope that trend continues with the Forester turbo, and the price is no more than a grand higher with that engine.
that Subaru will offer other stuff as part of the package. In Japan, the Forester turbo comes standard with leather. I would assume we will get the same.
That's somewhat encouraging. It's certainly better than the $4K I was predicting. Let's hope it holds true here too. I'd be very surprised if the gap is any closer than that. I would *like* it to be, but I doubt it will happen.
According to Edmunds, the price spread between a 5-speed RS and a 5-speed WRX sedan is $4,853.00, not $4,000.00!
It seems the Japanese home-market models have a much more reasonable price spread, than we do here. Frankly, I think a lot of has to do with Subaru thinks the market will bear.
I figured that was the case, since I couldn't find a 'plain' Legacy on the .jp site. Thought I might have just been missing it though.
Incidentally, Legacy/Outback (combined) sales for July were under 8k units. http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp So, how badly would the CAFE numbers be affected with 1k Legacy units/month getting a hot 2.5H4? What's that amount to per car?
Ah, the heck with it. Just bring over the RS30! ;-)
Okay, I'm not usually the controversial one here, and I know I'll have a hard time providing hard and fast evidence to make my point. So many of us here have complained about FHI/Subaru "not giving us the best stuff" or "keeping the best stuff at home." Some rally to their defense and say that the "best stuff" can't be brought here because of emissions and crash testing requirements, etc. This whole forum in Town Hall has just become an exercise in speculation, usually ending up in disappointment.
I'm beginning to believe that FHI/Subaru does not want to bring the "best stuff" to the United States. (Examples: the non-OB H6 Legacies; the fact that you can get a WRX with heated seats in Canada but not here.) As far as what the market will bear, I think there is enough evidence from this and other web sites that the demand for these special models and options already exists.
Okay I said it. Enough said. Maybe I'm just having a bad day.
I've often felt this way. The only other possible explanation is that SOA is still leary and gun-shy from the mid-eighties when they nearly lost it for trying to compete w/some other bigger mfgs with an all-encompassing car line instead of concentrating on the niches. The funny thing about this is that the bigger mfgs are now eroding SOA's niche base. Now, more than ever, is the time for SOA to get off its laurels (what are these things anyway....LOL!) and bring the some of the aforementioned models stateside!
it did take them ages to bring over the WRX to the U.S., and it wasn't even the 'best' WRX that others can get. Ed, I'd have to agree with you.
I guess my hangup is all the fuss over CAFE $$. Does ChryCo, GM, etc. swallow those costs? I think not. So, why would a manufacturer care so much about something that they can spread the costs out over many vehicles? I realize that GM et all may be higher producing, but their fines are also more because of that.
I think another plus to all of this technology talk is that it would really help Subaru differentiate itself from all the new AWD participants. It just makes sense (to me) that Subaru 'gets it'. ;-)
The front fenders certainly have a much better taper to them, than the current model. Not so sure about the rear end; I really don't care for the "jeweled" tailights. Maybe it will look better in person.
Also, I suspect this image (too) is a Photoshop job, and not the real thing. The front just doesn't quite look right for it to be a real untouched photo.
But even now, the Forester XS w/leather is $24,959, according to Edmunds. I don't see how the turbo, based on how it and other Subie turbos priced in other markets, will be offered for less than $2K over that. That puts it at $27K, minimum.
Comments
-Brian
I think folks would like something that was warranted by the manufacturer as well, else we'd all be strapping forced induction systems to our EJ25-powered cars.
Ed
Is it time to take another Subie Crew poll? I say it is. 2.0 or 2.5 future turbos, whaddya think?
Bob
http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232486
A turbo version of the 2.5 H4 would be very nice. What are we estimating the HP and torque numbers to be? Gotta be better than the WRX, otherwise it won't be different enough to the general public.
-Brian
I saw that on i-club too. I sure hope it is for real!
While I wouldn't argue that the Legacy GT would get a 2.5T, I'm going to say that the WRX keeps the 2.0T.
The one interesting phrase I saw on the article was "symmetrical AWD". That's used heavily in the JDM. I think it would be a great way for Subaru to differentiate themselves from the recent increase in AWD vehicles stateside.
Ken
And he's forgetting one thing. IF we get a turbo Legacy, I highly doubt it will have 280 h.p. ;-)
-Dennis
I say the Forester, at least, gets a 2.0l turbo, because it is made in Japan.
The Legacy might get the 2.5l.
So for the poll, consider my vote split, 2.0T for the Forester, 2.5T for the Legacy.
-juice
-mike
It may not all come at once. I can see both the 2.0 and 2.5 coexisting for perhaps a couple of years, but I think eventually, they'll all be 2.5 engines.
Bob
I would be surprised to see it go into mass production though. Of course, I'm also surprised that they can't / aren't choosing to get the 3.0 H6 into wider production.
-Colin
2.5t in the legacy/OB 2nd tier
3.0 in the Legacy GT/VDC/LLBean OB
or more likely
2.5t in the Forester
3.0 in the Legacy GT
2.5t in the USDM STi
-mike
Ed
Bob
Subaru was at the very limit last year, so any change in a volume model would mean they pay fines, plus it would hurt their image more than their pockets.
Notice the Baja was certified as a truck? I bet the upcoming big SUW is also a truck. Baja's gas mileage is slightly less than the Outback, so maybe they had to call it a truck or pay fines.
I don't see how a 2.5T can go into mass production in their passenger cars. Trucks, yes. So maybe the Baja will get the 2.5T engine.
-juice
Ed
You certify the Forester and OB as trucks like the PT Crapper.
Bingo EPA problem solved.
-mike
If it's a low volume model, that's different. 100 Forester turbos would not have much effect on CAFE, which is a weighted average.
So I just don't see that 2.5 turbo going into any high volume models.
Of course, we have to see what fuel efficiency that engine puts out. Maybe a LPT 2.5l with AVCS could make 20/25 mpg, something like that, and not do to much damage to the CAFE numbers.
-juice
-mike
The Baja can get 20.7mpg, but car fleets have to average 27.5mpg, it's like night and day.
-juice
-mike
And no way do truck fleets get 20.7mpg, it's more like 16.
-juice
As to gas mileage, the 2.5 turbo may not be any worse than the 2.0. A LPT 2.5T (in the Forester) might be considered high-volume, I'm not sure about he other applications.
Bob
Jim
Bob
So gimme 200hp but LOTS of low-end torque (220 maybe, at 2500rpm), and I'll let the aftermarket chip that bad boy if that's not enough.
-juice
Bob
Bob
Maybe FHI just can't make high volume H6 engines..
SVX H6 3.3l DOHC 230hp/230lbs = 15K units over 5 model years
XT6 H6 2,7l SOHC 145/156lbs = 4K units over 3 model years
LLBean/VDC 3.0l DOHC 217hp/???lbs = ?K units
-mike
Outgoing 2002s were selling for cheap, in the $22k range. I may have to be very patient.
I don't think the Forester should go the upscale/refinement route. It competes with trucks to even the turbo would seem refined for the class it's in.
-juice
Maybe with the pre-cat strategy in the WRX, a 2.5 LPT wouldn't have as big an impact on CAFE. It could be Subaru's answer to more power under tight restrictions.
Ken
What are some of the i-club folks running turbos on 2.5 H4's getting for power?
Aside from the Baja, I think Subaru should maintain their car-based CAFE certification with the Forester. Part of it's appeal is that it's NOT a truck, at least IMO.
-Brian
Ken, can you translate the price difference between the Japanese Forester turbo and the non-turbo models? Can you put that into US dollars? How does it compare to the Japanese WRX turbo vs. the WRX non-turbo over there?
Bob
The keyless was sold separately for $175 (2002 models). The fogs were $298. I'd guesstimate the rear LSD is worth $400, and the side air bags also about $400. Another $520 for the 6CD (a la carte price on Legacys).
So that justifies about $1793, let's round that to $1800. The turbo engine would be the other $2200 worth.
But more importantly, Subaru has been pricing models below expectations, including the WRX and the Baja. I hope that trend continues with the Forester turbo, and the price is no more than a grand higher with that engine.
-juice
Bob
I just checked the Subaru Japan website and the difference in base prices are:
Forester XT vs. X20: $2,664
WRX NA vs. NB: $2,941
I used an exchange rate of 119JPY/USD.
Ken
Bob
Also, wouldn't we need to figure in an import tax of some sort too - at least on the Foresters and Imprezas.
-Brian
It seems the Japanese home-market models have a much more reasonable price spread, than we do here. Frankly, I think a lot of has to do with Subaru thinks the market will bear.
Bob
Unfortuantely, it's not that straightforward. There is no such thing as a "standard" Legacy in Japan.
There are five major categories:
- Legacy 6
- Legacy Touring Wagon
- Legacy B4
- Legacy Lancaster
- limited edition Legacys (ie. Legacy B4 RSK Limited)
Under each of these categories are specific models. For example, the B4 has:
- RSK
- RS25
- RS
- RSTypeB
Ken
Incidentally, Legacy/Outback (combined) sales for July were under 8k units. http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp So, how badly would the CAFE numbers be affected with 1k Legacy units/month getting a hot 2.5H4? What's that amount to per car?
Ah, the heck with it. Just bring over the RS30! ;-)
-Brian
I'm beginning to believe that FHI/Subaru does not want to bring the "best stuff" to the United States. (Examples: the non-OB H6 Legacies; the fact that you can get a WRX with heated seats in Canada but not here.) As far as what the market will bear, I think there is enough evidence from this and other web sites that the demand for these special models and options already exists.
Okay I said it. Enough said. Maybe I'm just having a bad day.
Ed
Siding w/ya in Seattle,
Stephen
I guess my hangup is all the fuss over CAFE $$. Does ChryCo, GM, etc. swallow those costs? I think not. So, why would a manufacturer care so much about something that they can spread the costs out over many vehicles? I realize that GM et all may be higher producing, but their fines are also more because of that.
I think another plus to all of this technology talk is that it would really help Subaru differentiate itself from all the new AWD participants. It just makes sense (to me) that Subaru 'gets it'. ;-)
-Brian
http://www.rexilla.com/
Hmmmmm.
Ken
Also, I suspect this image (too) is a Photoshop job, and not the real thing. The front just doesn't quite look right for it to be a real untouched photo.
Bob
-mike
-Brian
Some of those rumored Impreza lights look worse than the current ones.
Ed: all of these things are currently already available in Japan on the Forester:
* AVCS 2.0l turbo engine
* VDC
* throttle-by-wire (automatics)
* dual range
* self leveling rear suspension
* DVD players
* HIDs.
All factory, too. Did you see the link to that article in the Forester thread?
-juice
Bob