Hi all, The autoweek.com webiste reported yesterday from an unconfirmed source that the STi sedan will be in dealer showrooms in June '04! Lets keep our fingers crossed! Steve
In the next stage [2005], we will expand our introduction of new concept automobiles to the North American market.
.. we will strive to develop locally [North America] designed, produced, and marketed products such as a crossover concept car that is one step above the Legacy that we will position as a flagship car for North America.
Anyone read about this in the trade rags?
Apologies if previously discussed. WebX search performed nominally (read: useless) and returned 0 results.
That's the 2005 SUW that will not be based on the GM platform. I bet it'll be a raised Outback, sort of what the Forester is to the OBS.
I don't like that they call it a flagship, that implies prices above the VDC, or $35k. Fitz has VDCs selling for $26.7k, just to get an idea how real-world prices had to be adjusted.
So, gimme one for $28k street price, at least less than $30k.
>>I don't like that they call it a flagship, that implies prices above the VDC, or $35k. Fitz has VDCs selling for $26.7k, just to get an idea how real-world prices had to be adjusted.<<
So juice, do I take it that you're one of many who won't pay above a certain price for something with a Subaru badge? Nothing wrong with that, and not implying that I would - but then I may not pay that much for any make of car.
Something tells me FHI and others are carefully watching what happens with VW's Touareg (sp?) and Phaeton.
Not exactly, it's just that I can't afford a $35k vehicle period. So that would take whatever large vehicle they have to offer off my list.
If Subaru wants a flagship, fine, but please, please offer a more basic version that I can afford.
So Beans now sell for $25k (street price), gimme the same stuff in a slightly bigger car for $27-28k. If they want to sell a model with a Momo wheel, McIntosh stereo, and other cosmetic frills to the rich, then be my guest. But the fact that they have to knock $7 grand off the MSRP of the VDC says everything.
Did you see the latest C&D? The Passat W8 was dead last in their comparo. It didn't do well at all, in fact, being slow, inefficient, and handling poorly.
That thump you hear is the sound of Piech falling down - his head got too big for his body to support it.
As basic as it gets - a 2 door SVX-like coupe with TT H6. Heck, if they just freshened the SVX a bit and re-introduced it, it'd be an inexpensive venture on their part. It'd sell like hotcakes at $32k!
This isn't the first time this year that we've heard mention about a 'flagship' model from Subaru. Makes me start to doubt any 'hot' changes will come to the '04/5 Legacy when they're concentrating on a flagship instead.
BTW, anyone read the VW article in Automobile? A dial to select AWD lock modes on the Tourareg (sp). Who says manufacturers are decontenting?
Ok rant time...Subaru has got to be one of the most conservative car companies when it comes to introducing new models in the USofA. It's such a dichotomy because a lot of their features on current N.American offerings are segment leaders. Come on SOA gives us the GT30, the turbo Forester, B4 Blitzen, the WRX-Sti. How many shoppers how you going to lose to the likes of the new Accord v6, Altima 3.5, etc. Basically the Subaru engine outputs (WRX exception) are pathetic in comparison to whats offered by the competition. Frankly, it's getting a little tiring making excuses for Subarus otherwise fine lineup of engines. The "smoothness" and "low center of gravity" of the "boxer" motor only goes so far anymore. It would be fine to have the current h4 as the base engine but let's have some higher output h4 or h6 ( w/at least better than the lowly 212hp output). If not better engine output than start shaving some weight off the vehicles to improve the power-to-weight ratio. I think the WRX has proven that there are buyers that want more than just Birkenstock solid sensibility vehicles (BTW, nothing wrong w/that). Patti, feel free to quote me directly to whomever will listen at Subaru.
in one of these forums, MTM I think, Subaru needs to have "some cojones and show us their hand(s)". Conservative or not, they just need to realize that the B4 and the like WILL sell here.
I weep every time I go to the .jp site and see their version of 'the beauty of AWD'. Especially in dark blue.
others feel the same. I don't mean to beat the same ole' drum. Just needed to vent. :-) I really shouldn't have visited the link to the JP site of Subaru! :-0
the problem Subaru has is the low volume production (compared to the VW/Honda etc of the world). When Honda sells , what, 3-4 x more Accords in the US than SOA sells all vehicles. And even BMW sells more 3 series in US than over half SOA sales,developing new engines is not cost effective. Look at the low volume European "premier" brands (Saab I believe has worldwide sales of less than 100K!), nearly all bought out by someone bigger so they can source common engines/platforms from the corporate parts bin! Having said that I still look forward to a B4 (well actually I want a GTB wagon!). Also, if Subaru could do a 2.2 turbo 10 yrs ago for very low production run, I would think it would not be too difficult to supercharge or turbo the 2.5 today, let alone take the B4 engine stateside! FWIW., went to look at the 03 GT at local dealer, finally found a salesman who really knew his Subes. His take on future engines was that a turbo Legacy and Forester would come before an H6! He obviously smokes the same stuff we do here! GT wheels look like they are the same as the Bajas.
Okay, so a year a half after its introduction I finally got to drive a WRX on Saturday. Black sedan w/AT, 30 miles on odo, no options other than the transmission. Salesman (Flemington, NJ) let me take it out solo - which no other Subaru dealer (in NJ, PA or NC) has ever let me do before. (Maybe the receding hairline and bald spot made him feel comfortable with me.) Everything I've heard and read about the driving experience is true, but in many cases exaggerated.
Yes there's turbo lag and yes, it is slower to 60 than the MT version, but seriously, nothing I couldn't live with. I have to wonder if the people who complain about the turbo lag are professional racers or just parroting what they've heard elsewhere. I mean really, are you going to lose prize money over it? This car is so muck quicker than any stock Subaru product I or most Americans have driven (and no, I've never driven an SVX, so there) that there's no comparison. At 2800-3000 rpm it just feels like an invisible hand grabs the car, yanks it forward and keeps pulling. The salesman commented that with the AT it's "boring" and "just a commmuter car" and he has a point, but who has to be on the boil 100% of the time?
It is seriously undertired with the OEM rubber. My Forester's tires have better grip. As it is it still handles nicely, very predictable through the twisties.
I rode in the rear seat of Dennis' wagon afterward (we met there and went to lunch) and found it more comfortable and supportive than that in my Forester. Then again, the last-gen Forester must have the hardest, flattest rear seat in Subedom.
One thing I found a little disturbing: when I turned on the WRX headlights I heard a very loud clicking from the glovebox area - headlight relay? I've never heard such a noise when turning on the lights in any other Subaru I've driven. Lack of sound insulation, maybe?
As for the GT with Sportshift, I took out a titanium wagon. It had been a long time since I rowed my own gears, but the Sportshift made it easy for a schlub with bad knees like me. Shifts were not immediate upon flicking the shifter, however; it felt like there was about a tenth of a second delay in response. Nonetheless it did let me take each gear up to redline and bounce it off the limiter. I suppose there could be some computer reprogramming to crispen up the response. The GT wagon is still too heavy IMO for the EJ25 but the Sportshift does allow you to get more out of that engine than by just leaving it in "D". Of course having the option to leave it in "D" makes it the best of both worlds.
Both cars have nice leather steering wheels. The GT's leather seats weren't to my liking, but then I don't like leather upholstery in general so I may not be the one to judge.
After both drives I am left scratching my head as to why Subaru did not see fit to put the Sportshift in the WRX. they say "when you get it, you get it," but I just don't get it. Even with the little delay it'd work so much better than the standard AT in getting the power out of the turbo.
I think I could live with the GT wagon w/Sportshift if it had the H6, or some other 200hp+ engine with gobs of sub-3K torque. I am trying to convince myself I could live with the WRX wagon, because even with the AT and OEM rubber, it was a blast to drive.
I bet you the H6 goes in the Legacy and they call it the 3.0 GT, it's a strong feeling I have. Right now the L/SE is so nice that I can't see making the HUGE price leap into a 2.5 GT. The GT needs something of substance to justify the much, much higher price.
The H6 is it.
However, even that engine doesn't have the gobs of low end torque you want. Have you sampled a Bean or a VDC? Nice engine, feels like it belongs in a Lexus. But it's still not sporting.
Who knows, the Legacy has 7% shorter gearing, so the H6 may just feel sporty enough in that car. I would just love to see that for 2004.
Yes juice, I have driven both the VDC and the Bean. It does have a nicer torque curve and is begging for performance upgrades, but the average OB owner (not YOU, Dave ;-p) isn't likely to be interested in that.
I did see a number of L/SE wagons and sedans on the lot; look like quite the bargain. I know what SoA did with all the leftover '97-02 GT alloy wheels, though ;-). No Bajas on the lot.
I occasionally do 1-2-3-D "manual" shifting in my LL Bean, and it makes the H6 feel like a completely different beast. Tons of pull at the mid-to-high RPMs that you would never know about otherwise. This engine would rock in a GT wagon mated to a manumatic, or 5/6-spd manual. I would risk divorce to buy such a wagon.....
I do think Subaru should resist getting into a HP war with everyone else. It's similar to the MHz war in the PC industry. In both cases, there is much more to the picture than whose numbers are bigger. Yeah, the Altima has 240HP (overpowered for FWD if you ask me), but it didn't sway my wife, nor did it stop her from buying a 165-HP Forester with a 4-cyl engine!
I'll take a well balanced Subaru over a hot rod pretender like the Altima anyday.
Great review Ed. You forgot to review lunch at the Amish Farmer's market. :-) Maybe FHI is waiting for Prodrive to finish their consumer version of their manual/auto shifter and put THAT on the WRX. :-)
Like the other Dennis mentioned, I think part of it is that Subaru is a low-volume U.S. manufacturer. I believe we've proven with the WRX that if they import it, we will buy it.
I would have bought an L/SE for my wife, were I shopping today. We're happy with ours, but I would've just paid a tad more and gotten all our add-ons (moonroof, alloys, CD) to begin with.
The 2.5GT gives you VTD, which I find very desirable, and the shiftronic is the only way I'd even consider an auto, but is that enough to justify the $4500 difference?
IMO, no. $2 grand yes, but not $4500 difference in current street prices.
The Bean is a better value, you got a lot more equipment plus the H6 for almost the same money (OK, about $1 grand more, but still).
That's why the 2.5 GT needs to become the 3.0 GT.
I think Fitzgerald's owner thinks the same way - they have no plain L models, but tons of L/SEs. That's odd because last year Ls and GTs combined were far more rare.
Wow, really? So you get the VTD and the shiftronic for no extra markup?
That is downright strange. Those things are worth more, and then why is the 5 speed GT so much more costly than a L/SE?
"Sport suspension"? Oh c'mon. The L has springs, the GT has springs of a slightly higher rate, maybe? Thicker sways? These are upgrades that cost hundreds, not thousands.
OK, heated leather, but that too is worth $1000 or so. With the current line up I don't see much value in the GT 5 speeds.
Yeah, check it out, from fitzmall.com: $19735 for an auto L/SE wagon, while 2.5 GTs are above $24k.
I guess you get the heated leather, rear LSD, VTD, and shiftronic. Besides little details, that's about it.
Heated leather is worth a grand. The rear LSD used to be only part of the $400 AWP, so it's worth less than that. VTD and shiftronic some with the auto, and I'm comparing it to an L/SE auto.
I dunno, for $24k, I'd stretch to $25k and get a Bean, no doubt. Even though I prefer the look and tuning of the GT.
Not so much a future model as a "past," subaru in Germany sold a Forester "Style" variant which included, among other things, 225/45-18 tires on BBS alloys.
I don't want to hear a peep out of anyone who says that a Forester cannot run a wheel/tire combo larger than 215/60-16 without problems.
If putting the same rubber on a GT and a WRX is weird, why do they put it on the Outback Sport too! Probably cuz Bridgestone cut them a deal they couldn't refuse!
Thanks, cptplt. Again, proof the North American market gets slighted. Xenophobic, are we FHI?
paisan: Maybe so but SVXs are all used - in some cases VERY used - cars now. They are also not wagons. Further their wheel bearing failures are even more widely known than the Foresters'. All that said I wouldn't mind driving one; I remember seeing them new in '92 and thinking them very exotic. Love the dash material; wish I could get alcantara upholstery in a Subaru.
There are a bunch of '96 and '97s floating around with low milage at big discounts. Remember buying a used car @ $8 or $10K is a lot less than $25k for a new one. As for wheel bearings, there is a TSB on them being tightened properly. It's not a matter of weak bearings, just improper installation.
You gotta have $8K cash in hand, because no bank is going to write a car loan for a 7 year old vehicle. That was my problem last year- my plan of getting a cheap OBSand building it up was done in by my inability to finance it. So, the used '99 GT instead....
juice: 18" is too big for a Forester - I've seen them in person on an '02 L slammed 3". Not my taste. I think the car you're telling Patti to have built for me already exists, but not in the United States.
While I was at Flemington getting the car serviced I saw 2 SVXes; a sharp teal one running the same 17" Superleggeras I have (forget what tires) and a maroon one that had been through the wringer.
Subaru had an SVX on the lot that was getting its transmission repaired because some idiot had put it on a 2wd dyno trying to get an emissions test done. Fried everything, from what the sales guy had said. Oh, what an ignorant world we live in...
I apologize, Ken, I meant my "but why?" to be rhetorical.
Since my next vehicle purchase will most likely come in '04 I'd have to try to look into a crystal ball about my future needs vs. wants. I doubt that they will change so radically that I will need a completely different class of vehicle. For example, will my job change such that I don't have to haul around multimedia and training equipment? What if we start a family? Will we need an enormous people hauler for just one child? I know single-child families where the parents felt compelled to go out and buy a minivan. My parents hauled me around in a '67 Mustang and a '68 GTO and did not pack enough supplies to mobilize the 101st Airborne every time we left the house. I think the Forester and Impreza have enough leg room for most children until at least age 10, so that pushes the need for a larger vehicle out to 2014.
Based on that logic I would just keep the Forester or go for an Impreza TS wagon, but that ignores the fun factor and the "wants" entirely. In any case the Forester will likely stay in the family as my wife has made rumblings that she'd like to take it over when I pay it off.
Comments
a) WRX STi
b) Blitzen
c) Forester turbo
d) Legacy H6
e) old Yugo, broken, with the owner pushing
Sadly, the answer is E because SoA hasn't sold any of those here yet!
-juice
Apologies if previously discussed. WebX search performed nominally (read: useless) and returned 0 results.
Cheers,
..Mike
..Mike
I don't like that they call it a flagship, that implies prices above the VDC, or $35k. Fitz has VDCs selling for $26.7k, just to get an idea how real-world prices had to be adjusted.
So, gimme one for $28k street price, at least less than $30k.
-juice
-Brian
So juice, do I take it that you're one of many who won't pay above a certain price for something with a Subaru badge? Nothing wrong with that, and not implying that I would - but then I may not pay that much for any make of car.
Something tells me FHI and others are carefully watching what happens with VW's Touareg (sp?) and Phaeton.
Ed
If Subaru wants a flagship, fine, but please, please offer a more basic version that I can afford.
So Beans now sell for $25k (street price), gimme the same stuff in a slightly bigger car for $27-28k. If they want to sell a model with a Momo wheel, McIntosh stereo, and other cosmetic frills to the rich, then be my guest. But the fact that they have to knock $7 grand off the MSRP of the VDC says everything.
Did you see the latest C&D? The Passat W8 was dead last in their comparo. It didn't do well at all, in fact, being slow, inefficient, and handling poorly.
That thump you hear is the sound of Piech falling down - his head got too big for his body to support it.
-juice
Bob
This isn't the first time this year that we've heard mention about a 'flagship' model from Subaru. Makes me start to doubt any 'hot' changes will come to the '04/5 Legacy when they're concentrating on a flagship instead.
BTW, anyone read the VW article in Automobile? A dial to select AWD lock modes on the Tourareg (sp). Who says manufacturers are decontenting?
-Brian
-mike
Pick GT30 from the Legacy dropdown.
-Brian
Slowly frustrated in Seattle,
Stephen
Bob
I weep every time I go to the .jp site and see their version of 'the beauty of AWD'.
-Brian
Stephen
Having said that I still look forward to a B4 (well actually I want a GTB wagon!). Also, if Subaru could do a 2.2 turbo 10 yrs ago for very low production run, I would think it would not be too difficult to supercharge or turbo the 2.5 today, let alone take the B4 engine stateside!
FWIW., went to look at the 03 GT at local dealer, finally found a salesman who really knew his Subes. His take on future engines was that a turbo Legacy and Forester would come before an H6! He obviously smokes the same stuff we do here! GT wheels look like they are the same as the Bajas.
One exception, though - gimme the big engine.
Where's Ed's review of the WRX? :-)
-juice
-juice
Yes there's turbo lag and yes, it is slower to 60 than the MT version, but seriously, nothing I couldn't live with. I have to wonder if the people who complain about the turbo lag are professional racers or just parroting what they've heard elsewhere. I mean really, are you going to lose prize money over it? This car is so muck quicker than any stock Subaru product I or most Americans have driven (and no, I've never driven an SVX, so there) that there's no comparison. At 2800-3000 rpm it just feels like an invisible hand grabs the car, yanks it forward and keeps pulling. The salesman commented that with the AT it's "boring" and "just a commmuter car" and he has a point, but who has to be on the boil 100% of the time?
It is seriously undertired with the OEM rubber. My Forester's tires have better grip. As it is it still handles nicely, very predictable through the twisties.
I rode in the rear seat of Dennis' wagon afterward (we met there and went to lunch) and found it more comfortable and supportive than that in my Forester. Then again, the last-gen Forester must have the hardest, flattest rear seat in Subedom.
One thing I found a little disturbing: when I turned on the WRX headlights I heard a very loud clicking from the glovebox area - headlight relay? I've never heard such a noise when turning on the lights in any other Subaru I've driven. Lack of sound insulation, maybe?
As for the GT with Sportshift, I took out a titanium wagon. It had been a long time since I rowed my own gears, but the Sportshift made it easy for a schlub with bad knees like me. Shifts were not immediate upon flicking the shifter, however; it felt like there was about a tenth of a second delay in response. Nonetheless it did let me take each gear up to redline and bounce it off the limiter. I suppose there could be some computer reprogramming to crispen up the response. The GT wagon is still too heavy IMO for the EJ25 but the Sportshift does allow you to get more out of that engine than by just leaving it in "D". Of course having the option to leave it in "D" makes it the best of both worlds.
Both cars have nice leather steering wheels. The GT's leather seats weren't to my liking, but then I don't like leather upholstery in general so I may not be the one to judge.
After both drives I am left scratching my head as to why Subaru did not see fit to put the Sportshift in the WRX. they say "when you get it, you get it," but I just don't get it. Even with the little delay it'd work so much better than the standard AT in getting the power out of the turbo.
I think I could live with the GT wagon w/Sportshift if it had the H6, or some other 200hp+ engine with gobs of sub-3K torque. I am trying to convince myself I could live with the WRX wagon, because even with the AT and OEM rubber, it was a blast to drive.
Ed
I bet you the H6 goes in the Legacy and they call it the 3.0 GT, it's a strong feeling I have. Right now the L/SE is so nice that I can't see making the HUGE price leap into a 2.5 GT. The GT needs something of substance to justify the much, much higher price.
The H6 is it.
However, even that engine doesn't have the gobs of low end torque you want. Have you sampled a Bean or a VDC? Nice engine, feels like it belongs in a Lexus. But it's still not sporting.
Who knows, the Legacy has 7% shorter gearing, so the H6 may just feel sporty enough in that car. I would just love to see that for 2004.
-juice
I did see a number of L/SE wagons and sedans on the lot; look like quite the bargain. I know what SoA did with all the leftover '97-02 GT alloy wheels, though ;-). No Bajas on the lot.
Ed
I have seen more WRX's in my area. Strange though - it seems to be males over 40 that I've seen driving them. I think I even saw a red one!
-Brian
I do think Subaru should resist getting into a HP war with everyone else. It's similar to the MHz war in the PC industry. In both cases, there is much more to the picture than whose numbers are bigger. Yeah, the Altima has 240HP (overpowered for FWD if you ask me), but it didn't sway my wife, nor did it stop her from buying a 165-HP Forester with a 4-cyl engine!
I'll take a well balanced Subaru over a hot rod pretender like the Altima anyday.
Craig
Maybe FHI is waiting for Prodrive to finish their consumer version of their manual/auto shifter and put THAT on the WRX. :-)
Like the other Dennis mentioned, I think part of it is that Subaru is a low-volume U.S. manufacturer. I believe we've proven with the WRX that if they import it, we will buy it.
-Dennis
-Dave
The 2.5GT gives you VTD, which I find very desirable, and the shiftronic is the only way I'd even consider an auto, but is that enough to justify the $4500 difference?
IMO, no. $2 grand yes, but not $4500 difference in current street prices.
The Bean is a better value, you got a lot more equipment plus the H6 for almost the same money (OK, about $1 grand more, but still).
That's why the 2.5 GT needs to become the 3.0 GT.
I think Fitzgerald's owner thinks the same way - they have no plain L models, but tons of L/SEs. That's odd because last year Ls and GTs combined were far more rare.
-juice
Also odd (but not quite as odd) that the GT wears the same rubber as the WRX
Again, I don't get it.
Ed
That is downright strange. Those things are worth more, and then why is the 5 speed GT so much more costly than a L/SE?
"Sport suspension"? Oh c'mon. The L has springs, the GT has springs of a slightly higher rate, maybe? Thicker sways? These are upgrades that cost hundreds, not thousands.
OK, heated leather, but that too is worth $1000 or so. With the current line up I don't see much value in the GT 5 speeds.
-juice
Ed
Rear LSD, though. Heated leather. A few other nick-nacks, but not $4500 worth.
-juice
Ed
I guess you get the heated leather, rear LSD, VTD, and shiftronic. Besides little details, that's about it.
Heated leather is worth a grand. The rear LSD used to be only part of the $400 AWP, so it's worth less than that. VTD and shiftronic some with the auto, and I'm comparing it to an L/SE auto.
I dunno, for $24k, I'd stretch to $25k and get a Bean, no doubt. Even though I prefer the look and tuning of the GT.
-juice
Not so much a future model as a "past," subaru in Germany sold a Forester "Style" variant which included, among other things, 225/45-18 tires on BBS alloys.
I don't want to hear a peep out of anyone who says that a Forester cannot run a wheel/tire combo larger than 215/60-16 without problems.
Ed
I should let Ed drive the SVX, he'll be saying WR-what?
-mike
AT WRXs in other markets have the sportshift.
paisan: Maybe so but SVXs are all used - in some cases VERY used - cars now. They are also not wagons. Further their wheel bearing failures are even more widely known than the Foresters'. All that said I wouldn't mind driving one; I remember seeing them new in '92 and thinking them very exotic. Love the dash material; wish I could get alcantara upholstery in a Subaru.
Ed
There are a bunch of '96 and '97s floating around with low milage at big discounts. Remember buying a used car @ $8 or $10K is a lot less than $25k for a new one. As for wheel bearings, there is a TSB on them being tightened properly. It's not a matter of weak bearings, just improper installation.
-mike
-mike
Practical, no. 45 series for the potholes here? Maybe they should offer 17s here, though.
Patti: tell product planning to offer shiftronic and factory 17" wheels on the WRX, for Ed's next car.
How could I miss my Blitzen? Forgive me Crew, for I have sinned.
-juice
While I was at Flemington getting the car serviced I saw 2 SVXes; a sharp teal one running the same 17" Superleggeras I have (forget what tires) and a maroon one that had been through the wringer.
Ed
I just read your report -- nice write up.
So, if you had to choose between a WRX or GT (both AT) today, which would it be?
Ken
Ed
Just curious since we both seem to be "shopping" for similar vehicles.
Ken
-Dave
Since my next vehicle purchase will most likely come in '04 I'd have to try to look into a crystal ball about my future needs vs. wants. I doubt that they will change so radically that I will need a completely different class of vehicle. For example, will my job change such that I don't have to haul around multimedia and training equipment? What if we start a family? Will we need an enormous people hauler for just one child? I know single-child families where the parents felt compelled to go out and buy a minivan. My parents hauled me around in a '67 Mustang and a '68 GTO and did not pack enough supplies to mobilize the 101st Airborne every time we left the house. I think the Forester and Impreza have enough leg room for most children until at least age 10, so that pushes the need for a larger vehicle out to 2014.
Based on that logic I would just keep the Forester or go for an Impreza TS wagon, but that ignores the fun factor and the "wants" entirely. In any case the Forester will likely stay in the family as my wife has made rumblings that she'd like to take it over when I pay it off.
Sorry for the confusion.
Ed