Excellent point! All the more reason for Subaru to promote their boxer engine along with AWD as integral performance features, and not as add-on features.
In the dealer link given in post #810 it looks like the TS doesn't get cruise control or the height adjustable seat. (And they're not in the options list either.) Does anybody know if that's really true?
Danja: The TS has height Adjustable seats from what ive seen and heard...
Ramon: What sport wagon competition?
The Focus wagon is $15k+ and has less stuff and 35 less hp and less saftey and less reliability... The new Protege Sport Wagon is starting off at $17k and probably wont have stuff like ABS, which the TS has standard. The Jetta wagons are WAY to expensive! The Saturn wagons are forgetable already...
Well, is there anything out there to even compair to yet? Nope... :P
Wagons are making a come back, though. Pretty soon you can add the Protoge 5 and Jetta. Then the Toyota Matrix and the Pontiac twin. PT Cruiser, Focus, Saturn, already exist.
On the high end, there is tons of pressure from Audi, BMW, Saab, Volvo, Mercedes, maybe even Jaguar.
Interestingly, they seem to be either low end or high end. Kind of funny - the niche manufacturer is in the middle.
Subaru will have to differentiate with the boxer layout, proven AWD, reliability, and cold weather features to keep their snow belt faithful happy. Luckily, for now, there isn't that much price overlap.
I just saw a Pontiac Aztek AWD!!! It was orange and it was shown blasting thru some snow covered path like an orange Outback!!! At first I thot it was the new ST-X since it was orange. Errghh... anyone smelled Bromin? I'm having that quesy feeling now. =(
All the ones I've seen in the North East have been FWD. I haven't seen one single AWD version of the Aztek yet. It was fun seeing em spinning their wheels in the last snow storm.
This may be old news, but Subaru had 172k sales last year, best in 14 years. 6 years in a row of growth.
So, what do we know? We keep complaining about what's missing, pointing out how much competition has increased, and longing for models not available here.
Yet Subaru is on a roll. January sales were great, too, up in a down market.
i Club has these once in a while. My buddy Pipercub got one the last time around.
Go to http://www.i-club.com/ and do a topic search. I don't think there is one going on right now, though.
You can read about Pipercub's install at the Mid Atlantic Region Forum. He said he loved winding the tach needle all the way in four consecutive gears.
I believe Jaguar has been working on a wagon version of their S-type for a while now. I think their new X-400 baby Jag will also be available in a wagon version (and with standard AWD).
WRT to Versatrak, I seem to recall an auto mag saying that despite its ability to shift power from one rear wheel to another (sort of like the Acura MDX, albeit a less refined and less sophisiticated version), it still got stuck. Seems like its not as effective as GM may want us to believe.
Drew Host Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
When I walked by the Aztec display in Philly, I heard the spokesmodel on the microphone. "And it has an AWD system so sophisticated, it even has it's own name". I felt like stopping to ask, "if it's so sophisticated, why is 100% of torque at the front wheels until AFTER slip?" Dennis
Dennis, She was just reading the script, don't blame her!
Just like last year at the NY Autoshow, the models were touting how the LL Bean and VDC H6 was the 2nd H6 in a subaru ever, the other being the SVX. Of course I had to correct them, and they said "well we were just reading the paper"
I just returned from a local dealer where I had a service appointment with one of Subaru's District Technical Managers. At the end of my appointment, I had the chance to chat with him a bit and tried to pick his brain on future models.
This is what I got:
- H6 will not be introduced in the GT line. Apparently, Subaru has already experimented with this combination, but they didn't like the resulting handling with 100lbs extra up front. He told me that he thinks they'll offer a 2.5 TURBO in MY2003. - The H6 probably won't be mated to a 5-speed at all. For one, he wasn't sure if they could offer a 5-speed that could handle the torque (really?) but more importantly, the target customer, they feel, would prefer an auto instead. He kept mentioning the similarities with the SVX positioning. - He wasn't sure if and when Subaru would bring in the 4EAT with sport shift to the US. - The STX truck will probably get the 2.0 turbo instead of the supercharged 2.5L.
I'm jazzed at the thought of a 2.5 Turbo in the GT!
Yeah, a turbo would be sweet. I'm surprised they don't just use the 2.0l turbo. Maybe they want to offer more low-end torque for US buyers?
Still, they delayed the 2.0l turbo because of emissions standards, and now they'll have 2? Seems odd. I'm not complaining!
The mention of the SVX, though, just shows how wrong they are about that. The SVX failed miserably in the market, partially for that exact reason! Learn your lesson, Subaru!
If they turbo a 2.5l, it would make sense for all Legacy-platformed vehicles to get the same engine. So the 2.0l turbo ST-X is another surprise.
I say turbo the 2.5l, but offer that on the GT and ST-X. Use the 2.0l turbo in the Impreza and Forester line.
Uh, I am pretty sure a 2.5L low pressure turbo already exists. Isn't there a Japanese model like that? Or am I smoking something and the Forester Turbo is actually only 2.0L?
As far as this comment: For one, he wasn't sure if they could offer a 5-speed that could handle the torque (really?) but more importantly, the target customer, they feel, would prefer an auto instead.
The torque thing is pure crap. The H6 makes no more torque than the 2.0L turbo, that is for certain. Did you happen to point out all the manual transmissions behind WRX STi trims making > 250lb-ft and 280HP? Or even better, how about the new Impreza STi six speed-- it even has an 11 bolt bellhousing, just like the H6. Hard to imagine it not mating right up.
Ken, From my experience most of these guys from the manufacturers generally are not in the know at all about what is coming down the pipe. Take it all with a big old grain of salt!
If Mike were willing, I was ready to sit there and pick his brain all day. Unfortunately, I'd already spent a good hour with the road test with him so his time was running short.
He told me that SOA had not yet made the commitment for a 2.5 turbo so things still may change. The STX getting the 2.0 turbo is kind of consistent with a rumor I heard that the company that was going to supercharge the 2.5L went belly-up, however.
Colin - yeah, I hear you on the "too much torque" story. I didn't buy it either.
I also just drove a MY01 GT wagon 5MT while I was there. Me likes!
I don't think Subaru has a 2.5l turbo in its arsenal. The Forester Turbo is a 2.0l, basically a conservatively tuned EJ20. In Europe they make 168hp, but the JDM version makes 240hp!
(give me one of those!)
The H6 is supposed to have a block half inch longer then the 2.5l. I'm sure it's quite a bit longer than the 2.0l (isn't the EJ20 shorter than the EJ25?), so their argument that no tranny will fit is believable.
To add to the conspiracy theory, the Borrego concept had a 2.5l turbo. I was wondering where the heck that came from.
I don't see the need for that many engine variations. Just offer the 2.0l turbo in more models, and in various states of tune.
Wonder no more, the Borrego concept 2.5L turbo sported a Vishnu turbo kit (basically the old Minnam kit, for those that have been aware of them before Minnam split) and Vishnu electromotive TEC-2 programmable fuel injection.
Shiv Pathak (writer for several primedia publications including european car and sport compact car, owner of Vishnu Performance Systems) hasn't commented at all on the Borrego that I've seen, but the concept car most definitely has the kit under the hood, presumably on a normal production EJ25. Just like other Subaru enthusiasts are doing. ;-)
Oh I'm positive it wouldn't, it uses a Garrett T3/T04E turbocharger that is no longer in production. The kits are built from reconditioned parts-- presumably from TurboCity, Turbonetics or someone like that.
The new Garrett turbochargers are much more impressive, and besides Subaru is such good friends with IHI it wouldn't be a stretch to see a 2.5L with one of those.
Anyway it is absolutely normal to have a concept / show car that has a drivetrain nothing like what would be used in a production car. Those engineers are pretty smart, and generally have a budget a bit beyond the average Subaru enthusiast.
- H6 will not be introduced in the GT line. Apparently, Subaru has already experimented with this combination, but they didn't like the resulting handling with 100lbs extra up front. He told me that he thinks they'll offer a 2.5 TURBO in MY2003.
So an H6 GT wagon's handling is much worse than an H6 Outback wagon's? Or are we just talking sedans here? One has to wonder whether GM development is going toward turbocharging the 2.5 (given the Borrego).
- The H6 probably won't be mated to a 5-speed at all. For one, he wasn't sure if they could offer a 5-speed that could handle the torque (really?) but more importantly, the target customer, they feel, would prefer an auto instead. He kept mentioning the similarities with the SVX positioning.
No problem AFAIC if there's a 4EAT with sport shift...
- He wasn't sure if and when Subaru would bring in the 4EAT with sport shift to the US.
...uh, never mind.
- The STX truck will probably get the 2.0 turbo instead of the supercharged 2.5L.
Seems a little silly given that "truck" owners are looking for low-end torque. Can the WRX 2.0 turbo give enough for the ST-X or GTs? I'd have to wonder.
Seems like we're looking at the WRX drivetrain in the GT sedans and wagons, if I had to guess.
Good summary. Much more eloquent than my scribble up above.
The DTM didn't explicitly say that the OB w/H6 was a poor handling vehicle. Instead, he framed it as Subaru wasn't happy with the way the GT handled with the H6.
He also didn't have a good reason why they don't bring the sport shift 4EAT to the US. He said that it's been out for a while in Japan so mechanically been proven. I even pointed out that this was one weakness of the H6 OBs vis-a-vis it's competition.
I too was puzzled at his comment that the STX would have a 2.0 instead because of the application difference. I really would have loved to hang out for a couple more hours just talking cars, but he had to get back to work (so did I, but I didn't care).
One thing I didn't mention before was that SOA seems to be pretty amazed at the positive response they've had with the WRX. The dealer I was at already had 40 on order. They were expecting the first batch to arrive on March 1.
I appreciate the compliment. I just couldn't follow his logic in places. I've driven an H6 VDC but not an LLBean. The added power and torque helped and the VDC is a pretty impressive system but the whole package does make the Outback weightier. I don't know what the weight difference is between the current 2.5 and the WRX's 2.0 turbo - if the latter is lighter that may have some less than ideal effect on the GT's handling as well.
From a marketing standpoint I can see the VDC/LLB as flagships for the "outdoorsy" Subaristi. Let's face it, the Outback created a niche that Audi and Volvo (maybe BMW and Saab?) are rushing to fill. I see the WRXes as the flagship car for the "boy racer" Subaristi and, assuming that they get back on track in the WRC, for the line as a whole. What I don't see is a larger high performance wagon that slots against the high performance wagons from Audi, Volvo, BMW and Saab. That's where I would place the GT wagon or - dare I say it? - a US version of the B4 Blitzen wagon.
1. All 2002 Outbacks and Foresters get black-lettered tires. Why? New 2002 Outback Sport has black-lettered tires—a first! Subaru, historically is consistent from model-to-model with these kinds of changes. So, I expect the the other 2002 Outbacks and Foresters to follow suit.
2. 2002 Outbacks will no longer use Firestone Wilderness tires. Why? Subaru has had time to see how Firestone has reacted to the Explorer fiasco, and I've got a (gut) feeling that they're not completely happy. Besides, I think they would like to distance themselves from the "Wilderness" name.
3. H-6 Subarus will get 225/55x17" tires. Why? I think Subaru (and customers alike) would like to see the H-6s set off a bit more (visually) from the other models. 17" tires would do the trick. Besides, the WRX offers 17" rims as an option.
1) I agree that the raised white letter look is headed the way of the "traditional" SUV. Plus, the change is easy to do -- the current tires come with one side raised, the reverse side with black sidewalls. Just reverse 'em!
2) I certainly hope so.
3)Hmmm. Latest rumors predict that the H6 will only make it's way into the OB line. If that's true, a 17" tire may not be the most practical given that the OB is positioned for a light off-road application.
There are some exception to the model-to-model consistency you mentioned, though, like DRLs on the Outback but not Forester.
Still, you may be right. Drop the OWL and the Firestone brand. While the tires weren't shredding, they aren't exactly great performers either.
17" rims would be sweet, but don't bother with the overpriced BBS wheels. I can't imagine anyone would be willing to pay what they cost. That would put the VDC into the mid $30s!
So I'm with Ken on that one. Too stiff a side wall for light trails. The GT, whenever it gets the turbo, will get them, though.
It all depends on the tire they choose. I agree, historically, low-profile tires were not the way to go for off-road or "utility-type" vehicles. That seems to be changing now. Range Rovers and Land Rovers have had 18" low-profile tires available for some time now. Same with the Mercedes ML-430/55 and BMW X5. Also the recently announced 2002 Dodge Ram will be available with 295/55x20 tires.
Also, the ST-X had 225/55x17 tires, so I think there is a "reasonable" chance this could occur. I agree, If I were Subaru, I would use an in-house 17" rim (which there are plenty to choose from), and not the expensive BBS wheels.
All the trucks using "low profile" tires are not meant for offroading, they are meant for people who want to look tough, and handle like a sports car. Any true off-roader will never put low profile tires on the car. I thought that Subarus were functional not cosmetic? What happened to those ideas...
More to ponder. I found this press release on the new plant. http://www.glpi.org/SIA%20Engine%20Plant%20Announcement.htm I thought I read or heard that H6's would be built there. At the bottom of this press release it says H4's. Guess we'll find out for sure within a year. Dennis
I had a rental Mustang last week. Since my legs are kinda short (although they reach the ground :-) I had to move the seat up a bit. This put me quite close to the steering wheel and I had to recline the seat a bit to get close to comfortable.
I don't know what the engineering would be like, but that may be a great feature for a future Subaru. (BTW, the steering wheel is fine for me, both in the Outback and the Forester, just wondering what the rest of you think.)
Comments
Bob
Bob
http://www.toyota.co.jp/Showroom/All_toyota_lineup/KlugerV/index.html
You'll find the video clip for 2002 Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS Sedan and TS Sport Wagon towards the bottom of the page.
KarenS
Host
Owner's Clubs
$400 over invoice in upstate NY...and which dealer might that be?
Thanks
http://www.vanbortelsubaru.com/
I don't know if they have WRX pricing on the web site, but
some "i-clubber's" called to get that info.
Dennis
Ramon: What sport wagon competition?
The Focus wagon is $15k+ and has less stuff and 35 less hp and less saftey and less reliability...
The new Protege Sport Wagon is starting off at $17k and probably wont have stuff like ABS, which the TS has standard.
The Jetta wagons are WAY to expensive!
The Saturn wagons are forgetable already...
Well, is there anything out there to even compair to yet? Nope... :P
On the high end, there is tons of pressure from Audi, BMW, Saab, Volvo, Mercedes, maybe even Jaguar.
Interestingly, they seem to be either low end or high end. Kind of funny - the niche manufacturer is in the middle.
Subaru will have to differentiate with the boxer layout, proven AWD, reliability, and cold weather features to keep their snow belt faithful happy. Luckily, for now, there isn't that much price overlap.
-juice
Subaru seems to be priced in the middle. Only the Passat overlaps significantly. Maybe low end A4s.
Then of course there are SUV alternatives, which are getting more and more car-like (Highlander, Escape). Those will be putting on the pressure.
-juice
-juice
-mike
What they really need is a DE-UGLYFYING option!
-juice
Huh?
Yep. That way full service gas attendants don't have to look around too long. Could hurt their vision, you know!
-juice
Stephen
So, what do we know? We keep complaining about what's missing, pointing out how much competition has increased, and longing for models not available here.
Yet Subaru is on a roll. January sales were great, too, up in a down market.
-juice
Can you please tell me more about the group buy turbo kit?
Feilo
Go to http://www.i-club.com/ and do a topic search. I don't think there is one going on right now, though.
You can read about Pipercub's install at the Mid Atlantic Region Forum. He said he loved winding the tach needle all the way in four consecutive gears.
Sounds like fun, no?
-juice
WRT to Versatrak, I seem to recall an auto mag saying that despite its ability to shift power from one rear wheel to another (sort of like the Acura MDX, albeit a less refined and less sophisiticated version), it still got stuck. Seems like its not as effective as GM may want us to believe.
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
Dennis
;-)
-juice
She was just reading the script, don't blame her!
Just like last year at the NY Autoshow, the models were touting how the LL Bean and VDC H6 was the 2nd H6 in a subaru ever, the other being the SVX. Of course I had to correct them, and they said "well we were just reading the paper"
-mike
This is what I got:
- H6 will not be introduced in the GT line. Apparently, Subaru has already experimented with this combination, but they didn't like the resulting handling with 100lbs extra up front. He told me that he thinks they'll offer a 2.5 TURBO in MY2003.
- The H6 probably won't be mated to a 5-speed at all. For one, he wasn't sure if they could offer a 5-speed that could handle the torque (really?) but more importantly, the target customer, they feel, would prefer an auto instead. He kept mentioning the similarities with the SVX positioning.
- He wasn't sure if and when Subaru would bring in the 4EAT with sport shift to the US.
- The STX truck will probably get the 2.0 turbo instead of the supercharged 2.5L.
I'm jazzed at the thought of a 2.5 Turbo in the GT!
Ken
Still, they delayed the 2.0l turbo because of emissions standards, and now they'll have 2? Seems odd. I'm not complaining!
The mention of the SVX, though, just shows how wrong they are about that. The SVX failed miserably in the market, partially for that exact reason! Learn your lesson, Subaru!
If they turbo a 2.5l, it would make sense for all Legacy-platformed vehicles to get the same engine. So the 2.0l turbo ST-X is another surprise.
I say turbo the 2.5l, but offer that on the GT and ST-X. Use the 2.0l turbo in the Impreza and Forester line.
Wow, that's a lot to ponder!
-juice
As far as this comment:
For one, he wasn't sure if they could offer a 5-speed that could handle the torque (really?) but more importantly, the target customer, they feel, would prefer an auto instead.
The torque thing is pure crap. The H6 makes no more torque than the 2.0L turbo, that is for certain. Did you happen to point out all the manual transmissions behind WRX STi trims making > 250lb-ft and 280HP? Or even better, how about the new Impreza STi six speed-- it even has an 11 bolt bellhousing, just like the H6. Hard to imagine it not mating right up.
-Colin
From my experience most of these guys from the manufacturers generally are not in the know at all about what is coming down the pipe. Take it all with a big old grain of salt!
-mike
He told me that SOA had not yet made the commitment for a 2.5 turbo so things still may change. The STX getting the 2.0 turbo is kind of consistent with a rumor I heard that the company that was going to supercharge the 2.5L went belly-up, however.
Colin - yeah, I hear you on the "too much torque" story. I didn't buy it either.
I also just drove a MY01 GT wagon 5MT while I was there. Me likes!
Ken
(give me one of those!)
The H6 is supposed to have a block half inch longer then the 2.5l. I'm sure it's quite a bit longer than the 2.0l (isn't the EJ20 shorter than the EJ25?), so their argument that no tranny will fit is believable.
To add to the conspiracy theory, the Borrego concept had a 2.5l turbo. I was wondering where the heck that came from.
I don't see the need for that many engine variations. Just offer the 2.0l turbo in more models, and in various states of tune.
-juice
Shiv Pathak (writer for several primedia publications including european car and sport compact car, owner of Vishnu Performance Systems) hasn't commented at all on the Borrego that I've seen, but the concept car most definitely has the kit under the hood, presumably on a normal production EJ25. Just like other Subaru enthusiasts are doing. ;-)
-Colin
The WRX uses a Mitsubishi turbo, so I doubt the Vishnu would make it into production.
-juice
The new Garrett turbochargers are much more impressive, and besides Subaru is such good friends with IHI it wouldn't be a stretch to see a 2.5L with one of those.
Anyway it is absolutely normal to have a concept / show car that has a drivetrain nothing like what would be used in a production car. Those engineers are pretty smart, and generally have a budget a bit beyond the average Subaru enthusiast.
-Colin
OK, with a bit of help from rallispec, but still...
-juice
- H6 will not be introduced in the GT line. Apparently, Subaru has already experimented with this combination, but they didn't like the resulting handling with 100lbs extra up front. He told me that he thinks they'll offer a 2.5 TURBO in MY2003.
So an H6 GT wagon's handling is much worse than an H6 Outback wagon's? Or are we just talking sedans here? One has to wonder whether GM development is going toward turbocharging the 2.5 (given the Borrego).
- The H6 probably won't be mated to a 5-speed at all. For one, he wasn't sure if they could offer a 5-speed that could handle the torque (really?) but more importantly, the target customer, they feel, would prefer an auto instead. He kept mentioning the similarities with the SVX positioning.
No problem AFAIC if there's a 4EAT with sport shift...
- He wasn't sure if and when Subaru would bring in the 4EAT with sport shift to the US.
...uh, never mind.
- The STX truck will probably get the 2.0 turbo instead of the supercharged 2.5L.
Seems a little silly given that "truck" owners are looking for low-end torque. Can the WRX 2.0 turbo give enough for the ST-X or GTs? I'd have to wonder.
Seems like we're looking at the WRX drivetrain in the GT sedans and wagons, if I had to guess.
Ed
Good summary. Much more eloquent than my scribble up above.
The DTM didn't explicitly say that the OB w/H6 was a poor handling vehicle. Instead, he framed it as Subaru wasn't happy with the way the GT handled with the H6.
He also didn't have a good reason why they don't bring the sport shift 4EAT to the US. He said that it's been out for a while in Japan so mechanically been proven. I even pointed out that this was one weakness of the H6 OBs vis-a-vis it's competition.
I too was puzzled at his comment that the STX would have a 2.0 instead because of the application difference. I really would have loved to hang out for a couple more hours just talking cars, but he had to get back to work (so did I, but I didn't care).
One thing I didn't mention before was that SOA seems to be pretty amazed at the positive response they've had with the WRX. The dealer I was at already had 40 on order. They were expecting the first batch to arrive on March 1.
Ken
From a marketing standpoint I can see the VDC/LLB as flagships for the "outdoorsy" Subaristi. Let's face it, the Outback created a niche that Audi and Volvo (maybe BMW and Saab?) are rushing to fill. I see the WRXes as the flagship car for the "boy racer" Subaristi and, assuming that they get back on track in the WRC, for the line as a whole. What I don't see is a larger high performance wagon that slots against the high performance wagons from Audi, Volvo, BMW and Saab. That's where I would place the GT wagon or - dare I say it? - a US version of the B4 Blitzen wagon.
Ed
1.
All 2002 Outbacks and Foresters get black-lettered tires. Why? New 2002 Outback Sport has black-lettered tires—a first! Subaru, historically is consistent from model-to-model with these kinds of changes. So, I expect the the other 2002 Outbacks and Foresters to follow suit.
2.
2002 Outbacks will no longer use Firestone Wilderness tires. Why? Subaru has had time to see how Firestone has reacted to the Explorer fiasco, and I've got a (gut) feeling that they're not completely happy. Besides, I think they would like to distance themselves from the "Wilderness" name.
3.
H-6 Subarus will get 225/55x17" tires. Why? I think Subaru (and customers alike) would like to see the H-6s set off a bit more (visually) from the other models. 17" tires would do the trick. Besides, the WRX offers 17" rims as an option.
Bob
1) I agree that the raised white letter look is headed the way of the "traditional" SUV. Plus, the change is easy to do -- the current tires come with one side raised, the reverse side with black sidewalls. Just reverse 'em!
2) I certainly hope so.
3)Hmmm. Latest rumors predict that the H6 will only make it's way into the OB line. If that's true, a 17" tire may not be the most practical given that the OB is positioned for a light off-road application.
There are some exception to the model-to-model consistency you mentioned, though, like DRLs on the Outback but not Forester.
Still, you may be right. Drop the OWL and the Firestone brand. While the tires weren't shredding, they aren't exactly great performers either.
17" rims would be sweet, but don't bother with the overpriced BBS wheels. I can't imagine anyone would be willing to pay what they cost. That would put the VDC into the mid $30s!
So I'm with Ken on that one. Too stiff a side wall for light trails. The GT, whenever it gets the turbo, will get them, though.
-juice
Also, the ST-X had 225/55x17 tires, so I think there is a "reasonable" chance this could occur. I agree, If I were Subaru, I would use an in-house 17" rim (which there are plenty to choose from), and not the expensive BBS wheels.
Bob
All the trucks using "low profile" tires are not meant for offroading, they are meant for people who want to look tough, and handle like a sports car. Any true off-roader will never put low profile tires on the car. I thought that Subarus were functional not cosmetic? What happened to those ideas...
-mike
Bob
The OB has 5.3" sidewalls, and would get 4.9" sidewalls with the 17" wheels. That would stiffen up the ride a bit, unless they retune the suspension.
IMO that may be a mistake. My dad's Outback has an ultra smooth ride and he loves it. I don't think most Outback drivers drive that aggressively.
Guess it could happen, but I feel it's a better fit on a GT.
-juice
I found this press release on the new plant. http://www.glpi.org/SIA%20Engine%20Plant%20Announcement.htm
I thought I read or heard that H6's would be built there. At the bottom of this press release it says H4's. Guess we'll find out for sure within a year.
Dennis
Hope so.
-juice
I don't know what the engineering would be like, but that may be a great feature for a future Subaru. (BTW, the steering wheel is fine for me, both in the Outback and the Forester, just wondering what the rest of you think.)
-Dan
Bob