Subaru Crew - Modifications II

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,755
    sorry. got confused (which isn't hard).

    Going back to the swaybar. A rep from Mofugas emailed me and said that he doesn't think he's ever sold a 20mm in the U.S. and is even having trouble locating one. If he can't, I may have to go with the 22. Anybody have any thoughts on this? I'm worried it may be too much.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Unfortunately I've been so busy wrenching on motorcycles that I haven't done anything with it yet. :-( I'll get to it, Ken!

    (update on the bike wrenching-- cleaned & rebuilt the ignition switch last night, starts right up now. now to clean and balance the carbs...)

    Lakepop, there's no doubt the torque chamber's small volume limits its effectiveness, but it's better than nothing. Look at the size of the intake manifold plenum though... the FHI engineers are trying to build something with a broad torque curve, as the shallow intake manifold is great for high rpm but not so great for low-rpm, especially transitions from part-throttle to wide open.

    -Colin
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,755
    thanks for the link, but my Forester is a '98. He says the intake is for '00+.

    By the way, where is the filter on that thing? is it in the pipe?

    I notice he's also got the cone air filter conversion for '97-'99, but I don't know how much I like that mod. Sucking in hot air from the engine compartment just doesn't seem like a big performance boost to me. Maybe I'm wrong. Anybody try this? It would be nice if he had some dyno results for that one, as well.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • originalbitmanoriginalbitman Member Posts: 920
    Whiteline makes an adjustable sway bar.

    bit
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Rob,

    The 00+ Forester and Imprezas have the air filter located in the airbox right before the throttle body. The pipe you see in the Ganz Flow is just that -- a pipe.

    For the 98 and 99s, there aren't a whole lot of options for a cold air intake, as you've found out. The easiest thing to do is remove the snorkus which will not only make your intake air colder, but it should increase throttle response a bit.

    Ken
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Ken,
    is that that protruding thing at the intake that doesn't seem to go anywhere?
    What is the purpose of that thingamagic anyway?
  • lakepoplakepop Member Posts: 221
    qbrozen...well what I meant my "older technology" was 87 up TPI technology. Its where I got started with FI stuff but todays OB II and modern ECUs date me somewhat. I agree that the ECU pretty much takes care of the store...you just have to be aware it has limits.

    locke2c..I agree that there is an air supply available in the boxes...but that is gone rapidly under hard acceleration and then the associated plumbing becomes a hinderance. Moreover, watch your tach under hard acceleration...mine gets to higher rpms pretty quick and thats where everything starts to do its thing. If you are refering to things under 3000 rpms ala rockclimbing....I think you are probably right.Its just not where I look for improvements.

    .
  • bigfrank3bigfrank3 Member Posts: 426
    lakepop - I think the key to what Colin said is "transition". With sudden changes in throttle position at low/mid range, the most important air is that which has already made it through the restrictive air supply path. The best air is that which is in the torque chamber, on the clean side of the filter. In my opinion this should be the largest volume for throttle response and transition performance.

    The second best air is that which is in the torque chamber, on the "dirty" side of the filter. This volume is important under the given conditions because the only restriction left in its path-to-use is the filter.

    What happens when the throttle is suddenly opened is that you immediately "drain" the air on the clean side of the filter, and to make up for it, all the air in the upstream supply rushes to take its place, each fighting the restrictions along the way. The faster the air gets replaced, the better the performance. Less restriction is obviously better, and the least restricted air is, again, the volume in the torque chamber, mostly on the clean side of the filter.

    One of the reasons I like K&N filters is because of the lower restriction, they decrease the capacitance in the system, which makes for better response.

    Regards,
    Frank
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    David,


    The snorkus is just another name for the intake silencer. The location of the snorkus varies between model years. For MY98 on Forsters/Imprezas and up to MY99 on Legacys, it's located in the fender:


    http://www.remarcable.net/misc/legacy_outback/mods/snorkusectomy/


    For the newer engines (not the 2.0 turbo) it's located directly in the engine bay.


    There are other tubes and protrusions from the air intake hoses that I'm not sure what they do, but my guess is that they also serve to reduce turbulent flow.


    Ken

  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Thanks Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Frank, there's no filter in my torque chamber. ;)

    -Colin
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    So that is why our new-to-us GT hesitiates so bad from a stop to WOT. The previous owner has a JCSport intake... Damn, just when you think you have it right. I wonder if this intake can be modified to fit the box...prolly not. Problem with Ganz is I have a Phase I DOHC with a MAF.
  • leo2633leo2633 Member Posts: 589
    lakepop,
    Where did you get the 20 mm sway bar? Is it a Subaru item? If so, do you have the part number? I've been reading up on these on this forum, and I intend on adding a beefier bar to my '01 Forester S (5 speed). I'd rather go a bit heavier than the 18 mm if possible. The car has too much body roll for my tastes. Thanks in advance for any info.

    Len
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,755
    Thanks, Kens, that clears some things up for me. Yeah, I thought about removing the "snorkus" but was just a little worried that it make make me venerable to water getting sucked into the engine (considering the 1st point of intake would then be right there in the fender well), but I'll have to take another look, maybe I can rig something.

    Lakepop - ah, i see. Well, at least your not as outdated as me. LOL. Not that I'm that old, but most of my mechanic experience comes from cars that you can crawl into the engine bay to work on (i.e. big carbureted beasts). Which is why i try to limit myself to everything outside the computer controlled components. ;)

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Gbrozen- don't know you enough to know how venerable you are, but I think the flashing wouldn't make you too vulnerable ;)

    Colin-

    OK so I went out there and wrangled the JC Sports intake off. I then reconstructed the stock set up with the torque chamber leading to the stock intake arm, but then from there re-attached the JC cone intake/MAF assembly. I lost the cool growl, gained the infamous DOHC hum. It does seem to have less hesitation at the very bottom, but overall throttle response is less now too, according to the Butt Dyno. Maybe its because I miss the growl? Dunno. Awaiting your input....:)

    Lucien
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Rob -- The fender area is actually not wide open for water to get in. The bottom of the fender space is lined with a plastic sheet. It's not air/water tight, but it keeps out enough. Lots of people have removed the snorkus and have had no problems driving in rain.

    Lucien -- I'm having a hard time visualizing yourset up. Doesn't the JC Sports intake have a bend in it? How do you get that to fit if you've re-attached the torque chamber and intake arm?

    You might want to try an ECU reset to see if that helps your car adjust to the new intake.

    Ken
  • cardhu1cardhu1 Member Posts: 9
    I am planning on having a trailer hitch (DrawTite) installed on my 2001 Outback. Does anyone have any experience with a DIY install. I found a link to an installation on a Forester but haven't been able to find a discussion regarding the outback.

    thanks in advance,
    -tac
  • lakepoplakepop Member Posts: 221
    Len..yes the 20mm sway bar had a Subaru Heavy Industries part #. It surprized me but alas I don't know if I have saved the number. I'll have to go thru my "stuff" ...if I find it I'll let you know. Recommend you nose around ..someone else may have it....

    If $$$ is not an issue...I think replacing the tires will probably give you more results. I have not done that yet and given the sidewall flex that is now in my stock tires...I expect good results once I upgrade...my .02
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    ken-

    It does have the bend- I ditched that part in favor of the stock intake arm. I kept the cone filter, which had an adapter to mount it to the MAF. So I am stock (for today) from the MAF-back.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I deleted my snorkel and I ingest cold air through my removed bumper vents-- look at the pic here in the SC Photo Gallery: locke2c "Subaru Crew: Photo Gallery" May 24, 2001 5:16pm
    There's two things to the side of the fog light. The upper one is a parking light, the lower is the bumper vent.

    I've driven in crazy rain lately and no problems. I sure wouldn't attempt to drive through deep water though.

    Loosh: let us know how your experiment goes. I think you'll find a lot more low-end torque with the chamber. The good news is that your MAF is very robust, since you have a '98. The JC Sports intake can't hurt you in that way at least.

    Oh, and someone was asking where to buy Ganz Flow intakes... didn't see that anyone answered, but you can find them in the products section of www.imprezars.com -- no, this isn't the old iClub address it's Larry Ganz's site.

    -Colin
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Got my whiteline liks and 18mm bushings today for the '99 GT. Got the links on with just a little difficulty, got the 18mm bar from the OB on, but the bushings....no go. There just isn't enough bolt left to re-secure the bushing hangars. The poly doesn't compress (duh) and I couldn't get it done. Put it back together with the 18mm rubber off the OB. Any advice here? Do I need a longer bolt or a new hangar/seat thingy for both sides? Or am I just weak? ;-)
  • seamus3seamus3 Member Posts: 98
    so will that ganz intake work on my car? i have a 96 legacy L. i have/had a problem with MAF failure with my current, now old, intake. i ditched it for stock piping and K&N filter. it just doesn't sound the same and i need a new intake.

    update: i went in for my "test", i was pulled over for my headlights (hella xenon H4+30's) being too bright and forced to put my car through a state DOT emissions test (the cop noticed my exhaust after he pulled me over). they told me that my car passed with flying colors and that i no longer have to pay the fine (i have a 2.25 cat back and stomung exhaust).

    seamus
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Seamus,

    Good to hear you don't have to pay that fine. I think the cop is the one that needs to go through an inspection if he things the Hellas are "too bright".

    The Ganz Flow only works if your intake setup is like those found in the 00+ SOHC motors. I'm guessing the the 96 Legacy has the snorkus in the fender and the air filter located right after the snorkus. If that's the case, the Ganz Flow won't work.
  • seamus3seamus3 Member Posts: 98
    i used to have a snorkus, i did the snorkusectomy when i put my intake in. now there is just a thin little piece of plastic covering the hole. do you mean set up wise, snorkus->air box->filter->
    engine? if so then i guess it won't work, unfortunately.

    i took the halogen's back since you said that the hella's are legal. i told the state patrol guy that was there that i didn't appreciate being singled out because of the appearence of my car. the cop thinking that because my car was noticibly modified i was trouble, i'm not. he didn't agree, and i left with an A+.
  • hondafriekhondafriek Member Posts: 2,984
    I was quoted $220 Canadian for GT rims at my dealer here in Ottawa, in comparison I was quoted $640 Canadian for 16 inch Rs rims go figure.
    Cheers Pat.

    PS. that cost is each rim.
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    now you've got me pondering!! With the JC Sports intake on, I had pokey low rev performance but beautiful upper rev response. With the reservoir and stock intake arm attached to MAF and cone filter, low-end grunt improves but car really feels restricted above 3000rpm, as compared to the other intake. Why? Is it the reservoir itself (I don't understand why) or is it the stock intake arm? Could it be that this flexible arm contracts under WOT and restricts airflow?

    Wondering if a custom made rigid pipe from the reservoirto the filter would be the solution. Not sure regaining the low end grunt was worth it...These phase I engines deliver most of their power higher on the revs than Phase II, so the loss of higher end response seems magnified.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Loosh,

    I doubt you've really lost significant power above 3000 rpm. What you felt before was a big rush at 3k not because there was a huge improvement over stock there (some, I have no doubt) but because there was a huge LOSS below 3000 rpm.

    The only real way to find out if I'm right about the power above 3k or not is to do some instrumented testing of WOT acceleration. A dragstrip would be ideal, but a gtechpro used properly would give you fair results.

    -Colin
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    hmmm....okay, I got it. So what is the point of a JC intake then, really? In a Legacy anyway, there is nowhere for a cone filter to get cold air, so it ain't really a CAI...
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I am sure there are some net gains at high RPM... Is it worth it though?

    The noise alone is worth it for boy-racers.

    -Colin
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    true....true...

    I'm prolly better off putting the stock filter box back on! Then at least it is drawing cool air from the wheel well, as opposed to the cone which draws air from the bay!

    So where are you concentrating your tuning? I remember the cam job.... suspension I guess? I take it you have the stock intake with an aftermarket exhaust. right? I think I remember your exhaust being a flowmaster or some such thing.
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    The Amsoil filter with stock air box really increases the growl on my 2.2. Sometimes when accelerating (like from a toll booth) I get looks like I have a grapefuit launcher. Once, a guy in a Boxster was looking at me and grinning. It sounds like my car should be taking off like a rocket, but I'm just putting along.

    OTOH, the K&N panel filter on my wife's OB changed the sound only slightly.

    Dennis
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    You've basically got it right. What I've done to my RS:

    custom cold-air intake (deleted snorkus, amsoil filter in stock box, MY00 fender plug, removed bumper vent)
    Tein HA coilovers
    Cusco camberplates (front), STi Group N upper mounts (rear)
    Whiteline 20mm adjustable rear sway bar
    Cobb Tuning Street Cams
    DIY cylinder head port & polish (very light modifications)
    2.25" midpipe (catback), 2.25" Borla turbo muffler
    Goodridge braided steel brake lines
     
    I've also got the following parts gathering dust pending installation:

    ClutchNet 6 puck clutch & heavy duty pressure plate
    Whiteline solid swaybar endlinks (front & rear)
    Kartboy shifter (Ken is going to smack me)
    Not to mention my old KYB AGX struts and we're not even going to bring up wheels and tires.
    -Colin

  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    eh, it mostly worked.
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    very nice html there, Colin. Miksmi would be proud, if he could see it, which he can't, because he's off lurking on a bazillion home theater boards, building the ultimate PC-based home theater system. :))))

    I s'pose you had that exhaust built for you locally, I remeber you telling me that via email. That's a good idea, and prolly cheaper than ordering Stomung SS and such. AS soon as I can afford it.....
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Where has he been? The nerve of him putting a home theatre before a scooby!

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Loosh,

    Oh I sure didn't type in all those tags by hand. I wrote that in an editor and then plunked the source here. ;)

    Sorry to hear about the job. (Yeah I know you posted in another topic.) I'm sure you'll find something that suits you better.

    -Colin
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Aw man, you still haven't installed that Kartboy shifter!? ;-)

    Hey, that's cool. I'm just interested in hearing your comments on it.

    BTW, how big a difference did the braided brake lines make? Were they easy to install?

    Ken
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    A couple weeks back, I swapped out my OE horns with a set of Fiamm Highway Blasters. When I first installed them, they had a nice deep "honk" sound to them. Unfortunately, I had to cut some of the horn plastic away to make it fit inside my front grille. Unfortunately, the cutting seemed to affect the sound quality and no longer made a beefy sound.


    I decided I wanted to do this right so I ordered a set of Hella Supertones. The horns arrived last night and I promptly got to work. The entire intallation took less than an hour.


    The horn behind the front grille was super easy. Just popped off the grille, removed the old horns and plugged in the new ones. I reused the wiring that came with the Fiamm to ground the horn via the mounting bracket.


    The other horn, located behind the passenger side headlight, required that I unhook the wiring harness from the fastener so that I had enough flexibility to snake it up to the horn's terminal. Otherwise, it was just plug and play.


    So how is the sound? Freaking LOUD! I tried them in my garage and my ears were ringing after a quick blast! The horns are much louder than the Fiamms and just blow away the stock horns.


    Below is a picture of my new armor-piercing horn behind the front grille. I like how the red horn grille peeks through the Forester grille.


    image


    Here's the other horn behind the headlight.


    Ken

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I like em. May have to get a set for my Mazda.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I've heard the Hellas. Pretty serious horn, no doubt.

    The brake lines made a noticeable improvement in initial pedal feel and responsiveness. You can still tell there's a squishy dual-stage brake booster though. Overall, for $125 I'm happy with them. Bigger improvement would take a bigger investment.

    -Colin
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Colin,

    Is the install for the brake lines difficult?

    Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    No-- but do have liquid wrench on hand and let it soak in for a while *more than once* before attempting to remove the old lines. It won't be as bad if you never have salt on the roads, but for me I had a scary moment where the nut almost stripped. This would have required replacing one of the steel hardlines that run under the car to the ABS controller... not fun at all.

    The total capacity of the brake system is but 10.2 ounces, but you might want as much as 32 oz on hand to completely flush and bleed.

    -Colin
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Ken- Those horns are the same as mine. The only difference is that I mounted both of mine behind the grill. One of the reasons being that the Hella Supertones are more directional than you'd think and I wanted max sound directed forward. Also, I kept the stock one behind the passenger headlight and have a toggle switch so if I want to just politely (and quietly) beep I still have that option. I'm glad that you posted photos. I've been meaning to but never go around to it.

    Although the Supertones do sound considerably louder than stock, I'm still toying with the notion of getting a pair of compressed air horns (if I can find a suitable unobtrusive place to mount them). Why you ask? As Tim Allen would say: "More Power!" :-)

    -Frank P.
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Frank,

    The Forester's stock horn position is one behind the grille and one behind the headlight. I didn't want run new wiring for the horns so I kept the stock positions. I figured I had one pointed forward for the long range effect and another that would reverberate in the engine compartment for a wider spread.

    That toggle switch is a good idea. It's hard to "politely" honk with those things.

    Ken
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Put the stock airbox back in today, and yanked the K&N out of the OB and into the GT. Haven't sealed the snorkus hole yet though; I dunno if that part is in the US like it is for the RS. Word is that it is a different sized hole. NEway, I think there is still a CAI gain already. The sluggishness at mid/jigh revs has dissipated somewhat, and tha car just seems happier than with the cone filter in the engine bay. 'course I might be dreaming a little too hard, too.

    Thanks for the input; 1st auto-x is July 1 on my RE92's!
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Lucien,

    I think the Impreza fender plug won't work. I bought one for my Forester and it didn't fit. The GT probably has a different shape too.

    I did find that closing the hole made the intake noise a little less noticeable but it also seemed to make the engine not rev as freely as with it open.

    Ken
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    I've gotta make that mod! I can't tell you how many near misses I've had due to the wimpy factory ones. Only thing is I'll have to paint mine black so they don't stand out so much. One of the moderators on the i-club boards painted hers yellow - to each her own.

    Did I miss where you bought them?

    Ed
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Really...hmm... I wrung it out a bit last night, and the car is definitely happier now than with just the cone. Throttle response better, and good pull up to 5500/6000.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Heh. So now you know why when I'm at autocrosses people keeping asking me "when are you going to get an intake" and I reply "never, unless I turbocharge the car."

    -Colin
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Now that I have driven it both ways, I totally agree. Looks like there is one JC Sports intake with cone filter heading to the Private Classified section of i-club... :)

    I am purty happy with the 18mm bar from the OB, but I think that, even stock, the suspension can take more. When I upgrade my tires I may order a 20-24mm...certainly when I replace struts etc.
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