I don't think that simply looking at the oil is enough to determine if it's still good. Take for example a diesel engine. The oil will turn black immediately after the oil change. This doesn't mean it's time to replace it again. On the other hand, the oil in a propane or natural gas engine will look clean even after several thousand miles. It's normal for oil (synthetic or conventional) to turn black with time. The oil is doing it's job. Particles that aren't captured by the oil filter are suspended in the oil instead of depositing of engine parts.
Didn't there used to be some type of oil test you could do, where you'd place a drop of oil on some paper (tissue? towel?), wait a specified amount of time, then measure the distance the oil had traveled outward from it's original position? Seemed like the more the oil was dispersed on the paper, the cleaner/newer/better the oil was. (If I've confused this for a test of paper towels, please forgive me.)
Spyder, I know 2 people who have turbo Eclipses. Which oil do you use? The guy that maintains them uses Castrol, and said it turned dark less quickly than Mobil 1.
mazda323, Thanks for the feedback. It still bothers me how the oil turns dark so fast. My mother used to own a 90 talon with the 2.0 non-turbo motor and the oil was still clean at 3000 miles. My cars a whole different story. I would feel more comfortable changing the oil every 1500 miles, but then again, I would have to go to the shop every 2 weeks and dish out 50 bucks. That would addup after a while.
guitarzan, I've been sticking to valvoline full synthetic since most shops around here offer it. Have'nt tried castrol yet. Maybe I'll pull out the tool kit this weekend (if it's warm) and give it a try...
1. Just curious about your comment on Toyota filter. Is that based on your experience or from some other research source? I am also interested on finding the performance of different brands of filters. Do you know any source that I can take a look? Thanks!
Toyota filter looks terrible in that test. A Toyota dealership here cut one Toyota filter and one Fram filter and display them side by side. I feel Toyota filter looks better than Fram filter and thinking switch to Toyota from Fram. Now probably I will get Purolator or Champion instead.
I've been using the Purolator PureOne on my Corolla. It looks like the best synthetic element filter you can buy for a reasonable price. I can get it for the same price as the Toyota filter from the dealer or about twice the price of the FRAM form Walmart. You can probably get a better price from an independent autoparts store if you buy a bunch of them. I bought 12 (6 for me and 6 for my friend's Tercel - same filter) and got a ~30% volume discount.
It's funny though that I just found out you are the author of the following quote: You can usually determine if there is sludge inside the engine (the type of sludge caused by a leaking head-gasket) by looking under the oil cap or by swiping your finger inside the valve cover.
There is a guy in Camry2 topic claimed that "most 1992+ Camrys have sludge problem" based on he found sludge inside 30+ (now is 50+) Camrys oil caps. And also make a theory that it's because most Camrys have bad valve guide system and therefore burns oil and engine is going to seize by those burned-oil sludge. He used your quote several times to support his claim, I am not sure you should be happy or feel bad about it. Anyway, it's nice to talk to you.
On that oilfilter study page minimopar.com or something, they said that the Pure One could restrict flow or something along those lines because of the numerous pleats. The Mobil 1 filter seems to be the best one out there and it's the same price as the PureOne
I've been reading throughout the differing threads contained by this board, and have a question regarding oil change intervals. Someone with a VW said it was dangerous to change the oil [especially the break-in oil] at less than 7,500 mile intervals.
I have a 6 month old Honda Civic, and I change the oil every 3,000 miles [even though the manual says to do it every 3750]. My experience with my former Civic led me to be more manic about insuring that I stick to oil changes at 3,000 miles. With the old Civic, I'd let it go to 4 and sometimes 5,000 miles between changes, and the engine started burning oil after 110,000 miles (which is YOUNG for a Civic).
So, now I'm religious about doing it every 3,000 miles. However, a new question has been raised from reading prior posts: am I damaging the engine by changing the oil at 3,000 mile intervals instead of 3,750 like the book states?
Does changing the oil too regularly affect the engine adversely?
Help! The car has 15,000 miles {alot for only 6 months of ownership) due to long work commutes. I need this car to LAST well into 200,000 miles.
I don't think that a car can suffer from 'adverse effects' from too many oil changes. For the best (and cost-effective) protection, you might want to switch to good synthetic oil and follow the oil and filter change intervals stated in your owner's manual. Can't go wrong like that!
Most people agree that for dino oil, you change oil/filter every 3K or 3 months. For synthetic oil, you change oil/filter every 6K or 6 months. One thing I don't understand is that why filter can be changed every 6K for synthetic oil, but should be changed every 3K for dino oil. I mean they are the same filter and has the same capacity to filter contaminant, the engine will produce almost the same amount of contaminant from combustion process regardless what type of oil is used. Some people even said synthetic oil/filter can be changed every 15K, does anybody worry about the filter may reach its capacity before 6K (or most of its capacity, therefore opens the bypass valve to allow dirty oil just pass through)? Is that a good idea to switch to synthetic oil by thinking you can change oil/filter every 6K or more? Thanks!
one good reason to change the filter is that there's a quart (give or take, depending on filter location) of old oil hanging out in there....
i use syn (mobil 1) in my bimmer and in my f-150. mahle filter on the bimmer. mobil 1 filter on the truck. bimmer gets changed every 8-9k (a little over 3 months for me). truck gets changed about every 4k, which is about a year, i don't feel comfortable going much longer than a year.
someone recently told me that the key to long engine life really does not lie with oil changes....
since the enemy of the engine is HEAT, it's more important to flush the radiator at regular intervals or more than regular intervals to guarantee long engine life.
Your argument doesn't quite add up. With 50,000 mile coolant these days, you would only change your radiator coolant maybe twice during 100,000 miles. In that 100,000 miles your radiator would keep the coolant at the design operating temperature until near the end when it might run 10-20F hotter.
How does 2 or maybe 3 radiator flushes over 100,000 miles compare with 20-33 oil changes? In other words engine coolant breaks down in 30-50K miles while engine oil breaks down in 3-5K miles.
This is consistent with a relative's NYC taxi cabs where the Checker went 500,000 miles before being done in by a bus and the Chevy Impala went 350,000 before retiring because of a bad computer.
Did anyone tried Castrol GTX Magnatec-synthetic? It is a new formula that has a magnetic molecules in,it makes oil stick to the engine (not flow on the bottom of the engine when engine is cooling off). Every time you turn your engine on it is lubricated (engine does not have to work dry until oil gets everywhere) What do you think ? Castrol is stating that it can extend life of the engine ,and it is highly recommended for city drivers (engine on and off many times). Is it a no-brainer ?
respectfully submitted (and just to play devil's advocate):
what causes the oil to break down in the first place? I think we agree that the answer is Heat.
Maybe we need to re-look at how often we change the engine coolant.... that's all i'm saying. maybe the coolant breaks down faster than what our owner's manuals state; after all - i change the oil more frequently than recommended by Honda.
1) engine oil and coolant are 2 different things, so you can't assume that heat affects both in the same way. also, they are working in two different environments (oil *in* the engine, coolant *around* it (for lack of better terms)), and the contaminants are quite different in oil (combustion byproducts, etc.), vs. coolant (virtually none, or else you've got other problems).
2) engine oil and coolant do two different things, coolant doesn't have to lubricate and suspend contaminants, it's sole function is to carry heat away.
3) it's easy to check to see if your coolant is still up to the task (get a specific gravity tool). oil is a lot trickier.
i could go on, but i think other than the fact that oil and coolant are both fluids, you can't really compare them.
Chris makes good points. Coolant will eventually can deteriorate but, as Chris indicates, there's no reason to compare coolant life with the life of engine oil.
But, igloomaster, I sense that you agree ...after all, you were playing the devil's advocate.
I would like to add that, if an engine has been overheated in the past such that the boiling action caused the coolant to develop a "muddy" appearance, it's advisable to change the coolant more frequently. This is because some of that contamination is likely to continue to occur even with no further overheating.
Common sense here please. If you change your coolant every week you are not going to make your engine oil last any longer. The heat you refer to is present because we have internal combustion engines. You are not changing that by changing engine coolant.
...I was flipping through a JCWhitney catalog, and noticed a finned, aluminum device they're selling for about $16, which straps onto your oil filter. It's supposed to work like a heat-sink on a computer chip (or the fins on an air-cooled engine), to dissipate the heat from the filter (which in theory would mean cooler oil). I know many trucks have supplemental oil coolers, and I'm sure one could be installed on my car. But does anyone think something like this "filter cooler" would actually have any benefit (other than putting $16 in JCWhitney's pocket)?
If you want to cool your engine oil then put a real engine oil cooler on. It is a small radiator that mounts in front of your regular radiator and you pipe (flexible hose) your engine oil through it. It too is in the JCW catalog.
Putting a finned thing on the oil filter adds mass to stress the seams during vibration (engine running). I hear of filters coming apart at the seam and dumping the oil without adding mass. I would not do it.
I must agree with cyw0 about the oil change interval. I feel 6k on one filter is just too long. If you take a peek at the owner's manual you'll probably notice a little blurb somewhere about "optimum conditions" in the oil service intervals page. I believe the only place you might get these "optimum conditions" is driving around the military aircraft bone yard in southern arizona.
I've come up with a maybe not so unique solution. I recently switched to synthetic in my 89 5.0 mustang which by the way has 173k miles. I did this at 170k and have decided to change the filter only (adding a quart back for what was in the filter) at 3k mile intervals until I reach 9k on the original change then I'll perform another complete oil change and start the cycle over.
Benefits?
This technique can roughly equal the cost of the 3k dino change especially if you have it done at any type of express lube center. I'm factoring in that I do the filter only change at home and let the express lube center do the complete change. Changing the filter myself at least 2 out of 3 times I don't have plan my day around a visit to express lube center. Finally,(for the environmental conscious) 3 dino changes in my stang generates 15 quarts of used oil vs. 7 with my synthetic technique. I hope I've at least sparked some thought and I'd like to see some feedback.
Just a few thoughts; I have been a jet engine mechanic for 15 years and was a car mechanic before I choose to work jets. We use nothing but pure synthetics in all of our jets and that is for one primary reason.....HEAT they stand up to the excessive heat that a jet engine generates. This because of there man made molecular structure making them more uniform and allowing all molecules to flow with minimum resistance thus reducing heat. Anyway, My personnel change procedures on my 97 Caravan and 95 Cabrio are as follows, every 6 months filter and every year oil and filter. I use a synthetic that is guaranteed against oil failure for one year or 25,000 miles which ever comes first. I have used this oil since purchasing both vehicles new and have had no problems and have always exceeded the manufactures MPG ratings.
Anyone out there using the Amsoil Dual Remote Filter system???? Any feed back would be appreciated.
I moved to the US from Germany about 5 years ago. Until then I didn't even know that dino oil existed as a lubricant for modern cars. It would be a challenge to find some over there. Why ? I'd suppose because of environmental laws and the stress on the engine oil when running small engines at high speeds for extended periods of time.
I personally do not have a problem using an oil filter for up to 5000K miles. Since I don't mind the cost of changing the oil as much as spending time underneath the car, I also change the oil at the same time I change the filter. I realize that I could use synthetic oil for at least 7500 miles, but it doesn't matter to me at that point.
I usually don't keep my cars long enough to really find out the effects on the engine, but a friend of mine who follows a similar schedule keeps his well above 150K miles.
Otherwise, I do see an MPG increase with synthetic oil, albeit a very small one.
Does anyone think theirs much of a difference between the commercial branch synthetics out their? For example, Mobil 1, Penzoil, quaker..etc. I look at them as all being the same.
Well, I'm certainly glad I read through this site, as there is now no possibility of my ever using one of those quickie lube joints. QUESTION: My owners manual for my new toyota echo recommends 5w-30 for colder climates/ best mileage. The toyota dealer mechanic told me they just use straight 30w for new cars. I only drive 2.2 miles to work so my engine has a disproportionate # of cold starts (not so cold, so. calif.) per mile. If I'm understanding this right, that would indicate use of the 5w-30 particularly. Experts? thanks...
Dealer is nuts. No one uses a straight 30 W anymore, especially new engines. Dealer problably got one hell of a discount on the oil and needs to push it. Stick with the multi viscocity oil. I once informed Toyota that their dealer was not even offering the recommended weight oil for the car and they quicly told the dealer to offer it. They (dealer) had a special deal with Penzoil for a strange weight and were pushing it.
it's true that synthetic "dissipates heat more efficiently" than fossil sauce as per dealer and others. It's about $27 for an oil change, or about $50 for synthetic. If leaving the synthetic in for 7500 mi. as the manual recommends for "normal driving conditions" (if there is such a thing) is as good or better, then the price works out the same. Maybe I'll try that. I hear zats all zey use on zee autobahn, ok. Aul be baahk...
After looking at these topics more it seems that synthetic has as many detractors as proponents. That consumers report NYC taxi cab study seems like the most objective thing anyone has mentioned. I guess it's just a matter of schange zee oil off'n and get zee h*** off zat gohmpudah und get a lifv and hit zee autobahn...(celebrity voice impersonated(badly)).
yup, it has as many detractors. that being said, i use syn in both my bimmer and my truck. it's not THAT much more, and it buys me a little piece of mind. i know for a fact that they start easier and MUCHO quieter in the cold weather with syn.
ever see the mobil1 commercial (with the dueling banjos theme) where they put the oil in the frying pan?
as far as the consumer reports taxi cab article goes, that has to be taken with a grain of salt. you don't drive your car the way these are driven (well, maybe YOU do, but i don't). after their initial startup, they run constantly. engine wear is most significant when you start your car, which you do probably a lot more than the cabbie does. i believe there was even a disclaimer on that article to that effect, i could be wrong.
Most NYC cabs shut down at night and many shut down when at cab stands.
Its the only test that exists that is not based on market hype. They say change at mfg recommendations (7.5k for example) and that all oils with the API label are the same. I believe them, tho it upsets all our faith in "our pet oils" based on hype and the fact we like the color of the can or price, or whatever, like my dad used it etc.
I doubt that the oil temperature of the average NYC cab drops below 220F all day. That said, I do tell non enthusiasts to use whatever oil makes them feel good-just make sure it is the proper grade AND SJ rated. As for my personal cars, I use synthetic fluids every where possible-engine, tranny, diff and transfer case. One of my 318 tis sees regular track usage and I want the other to last a VERY long time. Ditto for my 93 Pathfinder; 116,000 mi. and still using less than 1/4qt in 6000mi. If I was running a Camry or such that I didn't plan to keep more than 4-5 years, I'd simply stick the cheapest SJ rated oil in it I could find and go on down the road.
My 2000 Civic (1.6 sohc) has 5k on it. I had two oil changes already and the latest being Mobil1 Synthetic(10W 30) even though manufacturer suggests 5w(I guess thats okay 'cause Boca is really hot). Its been 1500 mi since the switch to synthetic. I noticed that the oil filter that went into the car was a generic one and I am not sure if ordinary filters can do well with synthetic oil. So, I guess the question winds up being whether it is necessary to switch the oil filter immediately and upgrade to a superior filter like a Fram Doublegaurd ? It appears as if the teflon stuff works very well with stopping the fine particles... Any comments?
Kattivar, I have enjoyed long engine life with conventional Fram filters and rather frequent oil changes. However, DuPont (the producer of Teflon) has cautioned that Teflon is really not suited for engine bearings so I am not comfortable with this latest offering in Fram oil filters. Indeed, the filter's purpose is to remove impurities; not add them to the oil.
I would not be too concerned about the "generic" filter on the Civic but, even with the Mobil-1, I would change oil and filter fairly often and feel very confident of long engine life.
Thanks a bunch Spokane...... I will hold on to the doublegaurd for sometime....I should have bought the other fram filter (toughgaurd) or the ACDelco's with the 9 bucks.....shucks...
Comments
It's normal for oil (synthetic or conventional) to turn black with time. The oil is doing it's job. Particles that aren't captured by the oil filter are suspended in the oil instead of depositing of engine parts.
Thanks for the feedback. It still bothers me how the oil turns dark so fast. My mother used to own a 90 talon with the 2.0 non-turbo motor and the oil was still clean at 3000 miles. My cars a whole different story. I would feel more comfortable changing the oil every 1500 miles, but then again, I would have to go to the shop every 2 weeks and dish out 50 bucks. That would addup after a while.
guitarzan,
I've been sticking to valvoline full synthetic since most shops around here offer it. Have'nt tried castrol yet. Maybe I'll pull out the tool kit this weekend (if it's warm) and give it a try...
Whats is the test they ran?
You can probably get a better price from an independent autoparts store if you buy a bunch of them. I bought 12 (6 for me and 6 for my friend's Tercel - same filter) and got a ~30% volume discount.
It's funny though that I just found out you are the author of the following quote:
You can usually determine if there is sludge
inside the engine (the type of sludge caused by a
leaking head-gasket) by looking under the oil cap
or by swiping your finger inside the valve cover.
There is a guy in Camry2 topic claimed that "most 1992+ Camrys have sludge problem" based on he found sludge inside 30+ (now is 50+) Camrys oil caps. And also make a theory that it's because most Camrys have bad valve guide system and therefore burns oil and engine is going to seize by those burned-oil sludge. He used your quote several times to support his claim, I am not sure you should be happy or feel bad about it. Anyway, it's nice to talk to you.
I've been reading throughout the differing threads contained by this board, and have a question regarding oil change intervals. Someone with a VW said it was dangerous to change the oil [especially the break-in oil] at less than 7,500 mile intervals.
I have a 6 month old Honda Civic, and I change the oil every 3,000 miles [even though the manual says to do it every 3750]. My experience with my former Civic led me to be more manic about insuring that I stick to oil changes at 3,000 miles. With the old Civic, I'd let it go to 4 and sometimes 5,000 miles between changes, and the engine started burning oil after 110,000 miles (which is YOUNG for a Civic).
So, now I'm religious about doing it every 3,000 miles. However, a new question has been raised from reading prior posts: am I damaging the engine by changing the oil at 3,000 mile intervals instead of 3,750 like the book states?
Does changing the oil too regularly affect the engine adversely?
Help! The car has 15,000 miles {alot for only 6 months of ownership) due to long work commutes.
I need this car to LAST well into 200,000 miles.
i use syn (mobil 1) in my bimmer and in my f-150. mahle filter on the bimmer. mobil 1 filter on the truck. bimmer gets changed every 8-9k (a little over 3 months for me). truck gets changed about every 4k, which is about a year, i don't feel comfortable going much longer than a year.
-Chris
since the enemy of the engine is HEAT, it's more important to flush the radiator at regular intervals or more than regular intervals to guarantee long engine life.
anyone agree/disagree with this?
Rather, I believe the two are complementary.
Cheers,
TB
How does 2 or maybe 3 radiator flushes over 100,000 miles compare with 20-33 oil changes? In other words engine coolant breaks down in 30-50K miles while engine oil breaks down in 3-5K miles.
This is consistent with a relative's NYC taxi cabs where the Checker went 500,000 miles before being done in by a bus and the Chevy Impala went 350,000 before retiring because of a bad computer.
It is a new formula that has a magnetic molecules in,it makes oil stick to the engine (not flow on the bottom of the engine when engine is cooling off).
Every time you turn your engine on it is lubricated (engine does not have to work dry until oil gets everywhere)
What do you think ?
Castrol is stating that it can extend life of the engine ,and it is highly recommended for city drivers (engine on and off many times).
Is it a no-brainer ?
what causes the oil to break down in the first place? I think we agree that the answer is Heat.
Maybe we need to re-look at how often we change the engine coolant.... that's all i'm saying. maybe the coolant breaks down faster than what our owner's manuals state; after all - i change the oil more frequently than recommended by Honda.
1) engine oil and coolant are 2 different things, so you can't assume that heat affects both in the same way. also, they are working in two different environments (oil *in* the engine, coolant *around* it (for lack of better terms)), and the contaminants are quite different in oil (combustion byproducts, etc.), vs. coolant (virtually none, or else you've got other problems).
2) engine oil and coolant do two different things, coolant doesn't have to lubricate and suspend contaminants, it's sole function is to carry heat away.
3) it's easy to check to see if your coolant is still up to the task (get a specific gravity tool). oil is a lot trickier.
i could go on, but i think other than the fact that oil and coolant are both fluids, you can't really compare them.
-Chris
But, igloomaster, I sense that you agree ...after all, you were playing the devil's advocate.
I would like to add that, if an engine has been overheated in the past such that the boiling action caused the coolant to develop a "muddy" appearance, it's advisable to change the coolant more frequently. This is because some of that contamination is likely to continue to occur even with no further overheating.
Harry
I also think that question has been discussed earlier in this topic and in the archived Part One that is linked in post 0 here.
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
I've come up with a maybe not so unique solution.
I recently switched to synthetic in my 89 5.0 mustang which by the way has 173k miles.
I did this at 170k and have decided to change the filter only (adding a quart back for what was in the filter) at 3k mile intervals until I reach 9k on the original change then I'll perform another complete oil change and start the cycle over.
Benefits?
This technique can roughly equal the cost of the 3k dino change especially if you have it done at any type of express lube center. I'm factoring in that I do the filter only change at home and let the express lube center do the complete change.
Changing the filter myself at least 2 out of 3 times I don't have plan my day around a visit to express lube center. Finally,(for the environmental conscious) 3 dino changes in my stang generates 15 quarts of used oil vs. 7 with my synthetic technique.
I hope I've at least sparked some thought and I'd like to see some feedback.
Cheers,
JB
I have been a jet engine mechanic for 15 years and was a car mechanic before I choose to work jets. We use nothing but pure synthetics in all of our jets and that is for one primary reason.....HEAT they stand up to the excessive heat that a jet engine generates. This because of there man made molecular structure making them more uniform and allowing all molecules to flow with minimum resistance thus reducing heat.
Anyway,
My personnel change procedures on my 97 Caravan and 95 Cabrio are as follows, every 6 months filter and every year oil and filter. I use a synthetic that is guaranteed against oil failure for one year or 25,000 miles which ever comes first. I have used this oil since purchasing both vehicles new and have had no problems and have always exceeded the manufactures MPG ratings.
Anyone out there using the Amsoil Dual Remote Filter system???? Any feed back would be appreciated.
I personally do not have a problem using an oil filter for up to 5000K miles. Since I don't mind the cost of changing the oil as much as spending time underneath the car, I also change the oil at the same time I change the filter. I realize that I could use synthetic oil for at least 7500 miles, but it doesn't matter to me at that point.
I usually don't keep my cars long enough to really find out the effects on the engine, but a friend of mine who follows a similar schedule keeps his well above 150K miles.
Otherwise, I do see an MPG increase with synthetic oil, albeit a very small one.
I look at them as all being the same.
Synthetic motor oil
Your host, Bruce
QUESTION: My owners manual for my new toyota echo recommends 5w-30 for colder climates/ best mileage. The toyota dealer mechanic told me they just use straight 30w for new cars. I only drive 2.2 miles to work so my engine has a disproportionate # of cold starts (not so cold, so. calif.) per mile. If I'm understanding this right, that would indicate use of the 5w-30 particularly. Experts? thanks...
-Chris
DUMB dealer. Use 5W-30!
that being said, i use syn in both my bimmer and my truck. it's not THAT much more, and it buys me a little piece of mind. i know for a fact that they start easier and MUCHO quieter in the cold weather with syn.
ever see the mobil1 commercial (with the dueling banjos theme) where they put the oil in the frying pan?
as far as the consumer reports taxi cab article goes, that has to be taken with a grain of salt. you don't drive your car the way these are driven (well, maybe YOU do, but i don't). after their initial startup, they run constantly. engine wear is most significant when you start your car, which you do probably a lot more than the cabbie does. i believe there was even a disclaimer on that article to that effect, i could be wrong.
good luck.
-Chris
Its the only test that exists that is not based on market hype.
They say change at mfg recommendations (7.5k for example) and that all oils with the API label are the same.
I believe them, tho it upsets all our faith in "our pet oils" based on hype and the fact we like the color of the can or price, or whatever, like my dad used it etc.
Any comments?
I would not be too concerned about the "generic" filter on the Civic but, even with the Mobil-1, I would change oil and filter fairly often and feel very confident of long engine life.
Bruce