Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

ray_c · October 2000

What is Cleaning Oil?
Can I get from any auto part store?
Does It work?
How would I use it?
I would like to use it to cleaning my car engine.

Thanks,

Ray

khefner · October 2000

Well I decided on the 5W-30 mobil 1 (recommended in the manual) and a Bosch filter. The Bosch filter was $ 5.00 dollars, while the fram,quaker state, etc type filters were about $3.00. The Mobil 1 filter was $10.00 each. Obviously the mobil 1 is an excellent filter, however I dont drive the vehicle rough so hopefully I wont need the higher quality. I am hoping the Bosch is better than the Fram types, as it was listed as a "premium filter".

jed1894 · October 2000

I've just switched to Mobil 1 10w30 from Conv. oil. However, after reading the post here, I m wondering if I should have used 5w30 instead.

Here's question.....don't laugh....

1. Will it hurt to switch to 5w30 after using 10w30 for 29000 miles.

2. Is 5w30 thinner...thereby possibly causing leaks? How thinner is it?

Thanks...

John

armtdm · October 2000

No, switching weights will not damage or affect the engine. If your engine does not leak with 10W30 it is extremely doubtful it will with 5W30. Usually seepage may occur after converting to synthetic but not after switching weights. If you live in a very cold climate you could also go to 0W30 for easier starts and the same protection. Both Mobil 1 and Amsoil make a 0W30

yurakm · October 2000

If the Mobil-1 0w-30 really can be used in all cases when 5w-30 or 10w-30 are specified, why all Mobil-1 user did not switched to 0w-30 yet?

Probably you know the answer?

I understand, that the Amsoil 0w-30 is a bit more expensive than the 5w-30 or 10w-30, but with the Mobol-1 the price is the same: $4.49 a quart +tax at our local Pep Boys.

With two or more cars in family it would be less headache to use every time the same oil. Just buy it, bring to the station, and never think again.

For example, the Chevy Malibu manual recommends 5w-30, while the Buick Regal likes more 10w-30. To complicate things, Buick also recommends 5w-30 for colder times, when the temperature is below 60F, Chevy recommends 10w-30 for very hot weather, and the both cars recommends 0w-30 or synthetic 5w-30 for the really cold weather.

As a rule, the winters are not so cold in Connecticut. Very seldom the temperature falls below 0F: this is warm enough even for 10w-30, while only marginally. But things happens.

By the way, all stations I know in the neighborhood are using 10w-30 dyno, usually Kendall, not depending on car nor season. Bring your own oil (and filter), if need or want something less standard.

mrbadwrench · October 2000

With a new car, when do you start doing the 3,000-mile interval between oil changes? I've done the 1st at 1K, will do another at 2K. Do I then do a third at 3K, 4th at 6K, etc.? Or, do I do third at 5K, 4th at 8K, etc?

Thanks.

steve234 · October 2000

The higher the number, the thicker the oil. In the dinosaur age, engines had lots of slop in the tolerances which made a heavier weight oil perform better, especially since they were not all that great to begine with. When your engine got worn out, you switched to a 50w to reduce the amount of loss in the cylinders.
Today's engines are tight tolerance because of improved contruction techniques. Because everyone wants better gas mileage and want more power from existing engines or new engines. A decent 5w20 oil today is better than a 10w30 or 40 of ten years ago in its ability to keep an engine lubricated. Anyone who ignores the manufacturers recommendation is just asking for misery. Poor gas mileage, more engine wear and a 'we don't pay for failure to maintain the engine properly'. If the recommended oil is not available commercially, the manufacturer must, by law, give you a reasonable alternative.

armtdm · October 2000

after the first oil change go to every 3,000 conventional oil and 7,500 if using synthetic

Your schedule is truly unique, where did you learn of that frequent an oil change schedule?

armtdm · October 2000

Ilived in Ct, Colchester and Meriden. Does get cold and I would use the 5W30 in all of them. The Amsoil 0W30 is about $2/quart more, they claim a new process, used it once and saw no diff in mpg etc. but I live in Ric, VA now. I use 10W30 in all 5 cars but 3 call for 5W30. The hassle of multiple weights in the garage is a pain. I may go with the 0w in one car for child at schoolk in colder climate but??

I don't know why the Mobil 1 0W30 is not used more, perhaps fear of the lower #. The 5 and 10 have flow points down to minus 50 or so and it may not make much diff.

yurakm · October 2000

Thank you!

ezaircon4jc · October 2000

My neighbor who used to be my mechanic (he sold his shop and went to work for USPS) told me to change first @ 500 then @ 1000 to 1500 then go to the 3000 interval. I did my Lincoln LS @ 500 and then at 1200 then started my free changes @ 3000. Seems like cheap insurance. My '91 Sable had 173k when we traded it in and was running very well. Used no oil! We also didn't have the head gasket problem.

bblaha · October 2000

The need for additonal oil changes during the breakin period is likely to ellicit many different opinions. I personally like keeping my oil change schedule on numbers that are easy to remember; if I'm changing every 3k miles then I change when the odometer is divisible by 3k (3, 6, 9 etc).

For that reason, I would skip the 2k change and do my next change at 3k (followed by 6k etc) if I were you. If you are concerned about metal particles in the oil, you might consider replacing just the filter at 2k and then change both filter and oil at 3k.

armtdm · October 2000

I have found that (experience based on about 4 new cars over the past 9 years) that wear metals are not a factor in the break in of new engines. The oil analyis in the first 20,000 miles shows heavy silicon in parts per million. However, this silicon is not dirt (analysis cannot tell the diff between dirt and silicon used in seals) it is the silicon seals wearing in. After about 20,000 miles the silicon count goes way down. Engine manufacturing has changed much over the years, break in oils have disappeared, and the need to change the oil early on and frequently has also. With synthetics you really can go at least 7,500 miles between changes with a huge margin of safey.

mrbadwrench · October 2000

On this forum, and other places, I've seen numerous recommendations for first change at, variously, 500 or 1,000 miles, with additional early ones also recommended for a time until settling into the 3K interval.

Incidentally, you may void your warranty if you go longer than the manufacturer's specified interval. For example, my new Ford specifies every 5K for normal duty, 3K for severe. If I use syn oil, and do every 7,500 miles, Ford could very well refuse to honor warranty if engine repairs are needed later. And, according to many sources I've seen, syn oils protect better but do not extend the allowable time between changes. Just as with dino, syn oils contain additives which break down over time. In other words, buyer beware. Don't always believe the hype you hear.

And, for my money, initially changing the oil more frequently and then sticking to the manufacturer's schedule is cheap insurance.

arjay1 · October 2000

Some manufacturers strongly recommend that you do not change the initial oil that soon. I drive a Passat and VW specifically asks that you NOT change the original oil before 5M miles. They say that the initial oil, that I believe is heavier, needs to be left in to properly break in the engine and prevent abnormally high oil useage.
I would consult your owners manual on this. I thought more manufacturers are recommending this.

arjay1 · October 2000

I am not advocating that everyone switch to 7500 or 10,000 mile drain intervals. Saying that synthetic is just like dino oil in that it contains additives that break down is only partially correct.
All motor oils have various additives to the base stock. These additives serve many purposes from dissipating dirt to viscosity extenders. Your base stock can only carry so many additives in suspension. If you have a higher quality base stock than you can lower the amounts of certain additives and increase the amounts of others. This is where synthetic gets its advantage. As an example, the base stock is so good that it needs less viscosity extenders added. This allows an increase in the additives that dissipate dirt. That is one of the reasons that synthetic can handle extended drain intervals. Whether you extend those intervals is obviously up to your comfort level.

armtdm · October 2000

Sorry, you are incorrect in total and as to the warranty issue, hell the dealer will try every means to get out of it anyway. Truth is engines wear over time, a catasrophic failure is 99.9% manufacturer problem never the oil, unless there isn't any, especially in a 36,000 mile warranty. So the truth is the manufacturer must PROVE that the failure to change the oil every 5,000 in your example was the cause which almost impossible to prove because that scenario does not occur and failure to change the oil is not a cause of engine failure of a catasrophic nature. And synthetics do not wear out, they do get dirty over time but if you could filter out the dirt, wear metals and water, fuel etc. they would last forever!

inky · November 2000

I mostly hear of observation or in other words "expericences" . These form our hard opinions. But I am hard pressed to find information (scientific) about the topic of oil.
As a nation, we use a lot of oil. Much goes into sewer systems and ground. Now, comsumption favors the oil companies, distributors and lube places as well as car dealers. This is steady income. But, if I had reliable information about the effects of extended drain intervals on driving similiar to mine w/wo synthetic oil then I would go with the least expensive, least hassle method of maintaining my cars. I have a 98 Camry V-6 and a 00 Lexus RX 300. I do oil changes in both by myself. I favor Mobil 1, 0w30 and favor 6,000 mile intervals to offset the product cost.
Mobil once bragged of 25,000 mile changes. My information is that Europeans favor Synthetic for reasons I mentioned and even go longer. My guess is that 10,000 intervals with synthetic oil and a premium filter (very critical) are perfectly safe for normal driving. I do mine as stated to preserve my 6 year powertrain warranty--which most likely will never be a problem--but.
INKY

yurakm · November 2000

You wrote: comsumption favors the oil companies, distributors and lube places as well as car dealers. This is steady income.

As to concerning car dealers, I have serious doubts. With higher labor costs (and the "genuine" manufacturer filter/oil), the service, most probably, is not profitable to them.

What the oil change does provide to dealer, is a steady inflow of customers. The customers, sooner or later, will need a more serious services and/or repairs, and the majority of them will do it at the same dealer.

Or even, while waiting for the oil change, the customer will visit a showroom - and, later, will buy a car from this dealer.

As an example: The local Firestone car service station at Hamden, CT, changes oil for $9.99, with coupon. This includes labor, up to 5 quarts of oil and filter. About $13 total, including taxes and the state disposal fee. Additionally, the station mechanics are inspecting the car for free with the oil change (the courtesy service for the AAA members, i.e. practically to almost everybody).

For me it looks as an obvious "lost leader". The real business they do on the subsequent repairs, due to customer loyalty. And the courtesy inspections helps too - it is a good occasion to show the customer the obvious problems with his car.

inky · November 2000

Ok, good point. But, the fact remains this constant and frequent cycle still favors the dealer as you mention and definitely favors all the levels of refining and distribution. Still makes more sense to use an oil that can be changed less often with a quality filter.
INKY

chanak · November 2000

Since it is very unlikely to find 5W20 oil in stores, and if I use 5W30 instead, does it void the warranty???

Any comment?

pilko · November 2000

I remember a review of Mobil 1 and Amsoil when synthetics were first being marketed for use in cars. Part of the review tested the oil change interval and concluded that for both brands there was no benefit to changing the oil sooner than 25,000 or 1 year. A special ultra-fine oil filter was tried and the review concluded that soot particles (what normally darkens the oil) were controlled and that if such a device were used the interval could be extended to 60,000 miles or 1 year. In fact the synthetic oil at 60,000 miles provided better protection than Mineral oils when new.

Many cars in Europe specify oil changes at 10,000 or 12,000 miles. I used to use Mobil 1 in my VW and changed the oil at 15,000 miles. 140,000 miles later still no discernable oil consumption between the 15,000 mile changes.

I am not sure what is going on on Mobil 1 oil grades. IN Europe, Mobil 1 used to be 5W50 and after a reformulation about 4 years ago it became 0W40. When I arrived in America 2 years ago I find Mobil 1 available in various grades but none that would appear to compare with 0W40. Why the heck would anyone want 10W30 ? What's wrong with 0W30?

inky · November 2000

I use it and like it.
INKY

rkpatt · November 2000

Putting aside the contention of some that buying store brand motor is somewhat risky because potential quality control problems , I am curious as who provides the motor oil for major store brands:

1. Advance Autoparts
2. Pep Boys
3. Walmart

Thanks

armtdm · November 2000

It is extremely doubtful that the dealer would know the oil is a 5W30 and not a 5W20 etc. However, the upper number is always the one that causes me concern but i Honestly do not believe the dealer would know and or win an argument on this, especially with availability problems.

Many many garages seem to get great deals on Pennzoil, especially the weird weights like 15W40.
Just ask Wall Mart what oil it uses? Havoline I believe also will package under the Pep Boys label and perhaps a few others.

inky · November 2000

Look, walmart oil is quaker state. In fact, the last super center I was in, the label on the shelf said quarter state corp. I wonder how the crap .74 for walmart brand and 1.43 for quaker state add up. If they are the same, then brand names equal big profit. Anyhow, I use mobil one but you have to run it 12,000 miles to equal non synthetic at 3,000 intervals. I cannot run any oil 12,000 miles. I feel that it becomes way too dirty. I may try the new fram or AC delco gold filters for about $9. These may make 10,000 miles OK in my mind.
INKY

tinindiana · November 2000

I've read various post on this subject. I currently use regular oil (every 3,000 like clockwork) and want to switch to Mobil 1 oil and filter. Would intervals of every 5,000 miles be OK? I know the syn does not break down, but dirt is my concern. Any input is appreciated!

jed1894 · November 2000

I use Mobil1 and change every 5k miles. Depending who listen to, the answer to your question will vary. There's not enough evidence out there yet to say whether Mobil 1 is actually better, or will make your motor last longer. I use it because of the 5000 to 6000 mile oil changes. It's less trouble for me since I change it myself.

John

adc100 · December 2000

I change about once a year with Mobil 1. I change the filter at about 6 months (Mobil 1 filter is in my opinion the best because it uses compressed fiberglass instead of paper) The key on the oil change is to change when the oil goes from a "dark honey" color to black. This to me says that there are a lot of contaminents/carbon in the oil. As you use syntheti oil it cleans up the engine and if your engine is in good condition it will stay cleaner longer with each oil change and the engine should use only 1 to 2 ounces per thousand miles. Mobile 1 has tested their vehicles to 25,000 miles as I understand it although they do not publish the results, probably because of warranty considerations.

SPYDER98 · December 2000

It also would'nt be a wise business decision either if Mobil told you their oil can last up to 25k miles.

mdecamps · December 2000

I've been doing my homework on synthetic oil and oil filters. I recently switched to Valvoline synthetic on my '98 S-10 2.2L 4cyl. I did this switch from dino oil at 40,000 miles. I'm still hoping to reap some of the benefits of the synthetic. I have now decided that Mobil 1 would be a better choice. I'm going to go to Mobil 1 at my next oil change (5w30). Also, I plan on extending my intervals to 6,000 miles. Through my research here on the Internet, it seems as if equally important to using synthetic oil is the OIL FILTER you use. I've checked out all of the manufacturers websites. It seems to me that the best filter on the market (even better than the Mobil 1 filter that everyone worships) is the AC Delco Ultraguard Gold filter. Their single pass efficiency (SPE) is rated at 98% for 8-10 microns. They use synthetic fibers rather than the traditional paper filters. To me, this is a far superior filter to all others and would be great for extending the interval between oil changes in order to reep the full benefit of using a synthetic oil. The filter goes for about $9.00 at the local Pep Boys. Does anyone else have any information on these filters?

yurakm · December 2000

Delco advertises that the "Ultra" filter have the highest single-pass efficiency.

On the other hand, Puralator advertises that its premium filters, the "Pure One" brand, have the highest multi-pass efficiency. And that the multi-pass tests better reflect the real life needs. The engine oil is being filtered constantly for months, not only once (single pass).

I believe the both filters, and other premium filters, are much better than the stock ones. Am not sure, if the ultimate difference between the the premium filters is important.

I do not hope to run my cars a million miles. Most probably, they will die from age (gaskets, seals, bushings, wires, etc.) long before the engine would wear-down. With any brand of premium filters. And, possibly, even with cheap ones.

mdecamps · December 2000

Ok, but theoretically if it is better in single pass efficiency, then wouldn't it be better every time after that as well (multi-pass)? I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to do it for argument's sake (education). I'm not arguing for AC or Pure One, I'm just trying to distinguish.

armil · December 2000

Here's a reponse that I got from Castrol:

"Recently, Ford and Honda announced that they will be factory filling their 2001
model year
vehicles with 5W-20 viscosity motor oil. In addition, both Ford and Honda will
be
recommending 5W-20 in their owner's manuals and on the filler cap.

In an effort to meet the needs of the industry and our consumers, Castrol will
launch Castrol
GTX 5W-20 in early 2001, which can be purchased where other Castrol motor oils
are sold. As
always, Castrol GTX 5W-20 will be formulated to provide maximum protection
against viscosity
and thermal breakdown".

Arnie

adc100 · December 2000

Ford and Honda neee to lower their fleet milage at the expense of the customer's engine life. I'm not a big Ford fan anyway and this gives me yet another reason to hate Fords (in addition to real life experiences). With regards to the filters: it sounds like the Mobil 1, AC Ultra, and Pure One are pretty close. As yurakm said the difference is probably nothing to get excited about. The fact that they are compressed fiberglass is the key. I did look into filter efficiencies at one time and I know the test methods are very rigid and as I recall both give information to more accurately gage the filter's overall performance. Seems that I really didn't understand it then. I realize I have not said anything profound. I'll revisit the subject. Based on other information I've seen in these boards- I'll switch to the Pure One (better drain-back valve) on my 2.3L Toyota and Nissan SE 2.0 L because the filters are horixontal or upside down (can you believe it?). GM keeps their filters upright in their current generation 6's and I believe thats why they last forever, generally.

Later, guys

gucci3 · December 2000

At which point does over filled oil become a major concern?
I had oil changes done at my Nissan dealer twice and both times they filled oil to about an inch over the MAX marking on the dip stick. The 2000 Sentra has only 5,000 miles now. The oil warning light never came on during this time. Do you think some damage could have been done to the engine?
If the oil starvation occurs from foaming, will the oil warning light come on?

By the way why do so many places tend to over fill oil? It's a waste of resources and money.

SPYDER98 · December 2000

Its happens alot with me too. Most places just don't know what their doing I guess.
But I'm curious as to how much damage it causes?
I've heard its not good..

edward22 · December 2000

My Toyota dealer in Charleston SC always overfills too by about 1 inch on the stick.
Odd, they are throwing away money.

armtdm · December 2000

First, the wider the range in viscocity the more additives are needed to get there. Not good if one can avoid it. Plus, only manufacturer making a 5W50 synthetic is Castrol and the recent Car & Diver will tell you that Castrol Syntec is a reformulated dino oil NOT A TRUE SYNTHETIC. Castrol has been deceiving the public about this by using Clinton's tool of playing with words. For example, Amsoil 10W30 uses no additives to get the viscocity rating, other used for wear etc. but true synthetics, based upon my reams of oil analysis over 9 years, win out. As to teh question on when to change a turbo using synthetics. I recently got a twin turbo and am trying 5,000 miles, only 2 oil analysis to date, both fine and in the future I may go to 7,500 whiCH is the minimum for my four other cars, 1 @ 7,500, 2 @ ONCE A YEAR AND 1 @ 12,000 mile changes.

paulsiu · December 2000

I have almost always changed my oil at 3,000 miles. In the recent years, I have notice articles from various publication that recommended 5,000 miles. Manufacturer these days recommend 7500 miles to 15,000 miles for oil change. I was thinking of extending my oil change to about 5,000 miles for the sake of reducing the amount of oil I am dumping into the environment.

Recently, I was browsing through one of the Auto repair for Dummy books, the author claims that the 7500 miles is just a ploy by the auto company to wear out your car prematurely so you'll buy a new car. Is there any truth to this claim? I certainly have seen no evidence of this any where.

In any case, can someone point me to studies on oil change intervals? The only study I have seen is the Test on Taxi done by Consumer Report. Several posters have pointed out the short-coming of the CU article. I was wondering if there were other articles.

Paul

adc100 · December 2000

These boards are messed up. Hope someone fixes this mess. Anyway, do yourself a favor and switch to syn oil. It is documented to have a higher level of protection and last 2 to 7 times longer with proper filters (Pure one, Mobil 1 or the Delco Ultraguard) I use Mobil 1 oil because I feel the best (I've done some research on the subject). Do this and you don't need to play the numbers game. I change once a year (10,000 miles with a filter change in between) If you do lots of highway miles you can certainly go above 10,000 miles. I wonder if this message will post???

Al

wayn1 · December 2000

What happened to our placemarks?????

armtdm · December 2000

No, in Europe the recommeded change intervals are twice as great as in the US so I do not believe it is a ploy to wear out the engines early. I have used synthetic of 9 years in multiple cars with extended drains. You can go the same total mileage as with a dino but the dino would have to be changed at the 3,000 mile mark to be equivalent. I go from 5,000 (twin turbo) to 15,000 between changes depending on the car and driving. It honestly does work but most people are fearful of waranty issues, lack of Consumer Report studies etc. Everyone keeps saying oil is cheap so change it. Well, time and hassle are not cheap and in today's world time is more valuable then money so unless you really really enjoy crawling under that car and changing every 3,000 miles ( or pay $25 to do it) you should look at true synthetic oil. ( Castrol Syntec is not by the way, they are using false and misleading advertising for what is a dino oil reformulated to change the molecules)

pat · December 2000

Take a look at the discussion going on in New Software! Your Questions Answered...
for some (many) messages about placemarks and posting problems.

Pat/Roving Host

steve234 · December 2000

Lets see if this will post. The manufacturers are in a no win situation. If they extend the oil change intervals, they get accused of trying to wear out engines. If they don't, they are wasting oil and money. With the old oils available, 3000 miles for normal service interval was proper. Many people still live by this rule. Obliviously, the shops and filter makers are not going to stray to far from this. With new engine construction techniques, sythetic/improved oils and better filters, the interval can be increased without problems. While the new rules are being determined, there is a lot of controversy. I favor 3-4000 miles for dino oil and 7500 for synthetic. This is within the warranty requirements of most manufacturers and replaces the filter in a practical period. The oil may last more than 7500 miles, but what of the filter? The safest bet is to replace both. Also don't forget the tiem factor. If you do not drive over 15000 per year,the oil change intervals should be based on time (3mos/6 mos) because of the build up of moisture from low use.

adc100: My 83 F150 called for 10w40, my 91 called for 5w30. The new requirements are because of tighter tolerances which comes from improved technology. I realize that GMs would not use the new oil because they have too much slop. My 83 is still being used as a backup for some in-laws that insist on having chevies and my 91 is still running as peppy as day 1 with 175K on it. The only problem with recommending 5w20 is that it is not readily available yet. Probably in 2-3 years, it will replace 5w30 as the de facto oil viscosity.

adc100 · December 2000

I agree with your post. There is however little doubt in my mind that 20 wt oil will give better economy, and improved microfinishing and parts size control allows smaller clearances, with less risk of damage. And don't forget those 20 wt oils will have more additives that also allow less wear. My 82 Pontiac V6 got doses of 10w30 weight syn and with 120,000 used almost no oil. Whatr am I tring to say? I don't really know.

Later

armtdm · December 2000

Well, you state that oil and engines have improved but assume that filters have not???? Actually, Amsoil filters say 12,500 miles or 6 months using synthetic oil. As to moisture, only if you do not warm the car up when you do drive it. So under 15,000 miles/year is fine as long as most trips are over 10 miles. And yea, I have gone 7-8months between filter changes, highly overated old wives tale.

adc100 · December 2000

I don't assume filters have not improved. Some have..some have not. Closer engine tolerances obviously require increased filter efficiencies of smaller particles (< 10 micron range). Does Amsoil yet see fit to supply their dealers with this type of technical information???? I'm guessing not.

wayn1 · December 2000

Amsoil will supply you with any info you request. Call or visit their web site.

steve234 · December 2000

I did say that filters have improved. However, the auto manufacturers in general have set a maximum mileage limit of 7500 miles between oil changes. For less than $30, I have no desire to risk my engine. Also, ten miles does not cut it. On average, to get the moisture out requires a minimum of 30-40 miles depending on type of driving and weather. Furthermore, you quoted Amsoil as saying 12,500 miles or every six months. If they say every six months, why are you taking chances to go past that?

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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