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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Kind of amazing how long the legs are on the "Oil shears down to its base oil" conventional oil factoid/myth (at least as far as PAO based synthetic oils are concerned). :shades:

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    But pennzoil 15W-50 is higher, 21.4 cst @ 100
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Ahhh, my bad, I thought that I read that the Pennzoil was in the high teens.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    The few cars I've experienced with low oil pressure from worn out bearings, etc, were pretty much low all of the time.

    From what I have read it would be normal to see low pressure only at higher temps, when oil is less viscous and thus leaks out faster. But, to clarify I think the pressure on this car is lower than it is supposed to be all the time, when the oil is hot. However, it is only infrequently going to 0.

    I'm not sure about pressure releif valve. The diagram we have shows one, but then it says "not applicable from 8/95". :confuse:
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    No problem. We will take a look at what we see with oil cap off. "Valve train" is the shiny metal that you see through that hole with the oil cap off, right? :blush:

    Perhps a good sign is that the fitting at the temporary guage on the windshield started leaking a bit and the back of the mirror is now pretty well lubricated.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yes, the "valve train" includes all of the components that operate in the head (in the case of your engine), i.e. the cam (probably the shiny metal thing that you're referring to), cam followers, valve stems, and such. That you can see what is probably a cam lobe is good, the question is, when the cap is off, does the cam lobe sling oil around?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I must have been thinking of one of our other cars. Could not see any moving parts through the Jetta's oil fill hole...seemed to only see sort of a metal plate, but could see some oil droplets or mist flying around near the edges of that plate. He had already added some STP-like glop, this seems have been enough to get the pressure to stay at ~5 psi with the engine hot (about 200 F).

    So now the plan is to have some probably 20W-50 put in there, since the pint of glop helped as much as it did, I am hopeful that the 50 weight oil might be enough to keep the light and alarm off for the summer. I hope the 20W is not going too far, too soon, since we still have lows in the 20s and occassionally even lower in April...I just looked it up and all time record low is 7 F for April here, record high is 91 F, though.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I did end up getting a Castrol product...syntec blend. That one is 21.6 cps @100C, for the 20W-50. Somehow I missed that in my previous research.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    If one were to put 5 quarts of 5W-20 plus 1 quart of straight 30 of same brand oil in a 6 quart capacity crankcase (rather than the 6 quarts of 5W-20 specified), would you assume that no harm would result, and that extra protection in hot weather might possibly be achieved?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I doubt any harm would come, but I also doubt there would be much, if any, extra protection. Also, straight 30 weights are often the cheapest grade, with fewer additives, so I'd be a little concerned about that. Does your car's owner's manual only list one oil, regardless of temperature? Some manuals list a more-viscous grade for hot weather.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I've got a few quarts of 30wt left from a case, and I was thinking of getting my nickel's worth out of them this spring and summer. At $108 per barrel on the news today, I hate to "waste" the precious resource!
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Do you have a lawn mower? If so, you should be able to use the 30 wt for that.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    When I bought my last Toro the salesman said to use single weight rather than automotive multiweight oils. He said because the little motors are air-cooled they run hotter and the designation of 10-30 weight drops because of the higher temps. He said just use 30.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • roadburnerroadburner Member Posts: 18,324
    Briggs and Kawasaki state that you can use multi-vis oils, but that oil consumption will increase if you use conventional multi-vis oil. Synthetics work fine; I run 10W-30 Mobil 1 in the Briggs and Kawasaki twins on my ZTR mowers.

    Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
    Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
    Son's: 2018 330i xDrive

  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    from 3k to 40k miles of mobil 1 5w30 oil changes, oil rapidly black after an oil change and engine noise developed. then a redline oil change resulting in increased observed performance better ring sealing?, quieter, smoother, and the amber colored aluminum visible thru the oil filler hole is again shiny new aluminium. valvoline syn now with 4k+ miles is still amber colored, and engine noise heard with mobil 1 is absent.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, I'm thinking Anecdotal, Empirical, or Unintelligible. Of the three I'll take the third.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    Redline is good stuff. The rest can be replaced with hydrocracked formulas, and at great savings. I'm ducking, but fire away if you will! :P
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    redline is good oil. the valvoline was the oreilly's free after rebate. bought a jug of valvoline syn at wmart-some of free oil left from the case-for next change, and even though it works better than the mobil 1, really felt under max throttle fully loaded, the redline was noticeably better. ~2+ gals of gas (today)equals 1 qt of redline, but by the cases the SI-1 was discounted quite a bit by a local performance shop. engine warranties seem to gnaw at some peolple (starburst, approved), even for products sponsored at bob's - the famous first syn oil.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    My experience with Redline was some years back, and I used it in a Harley-Davidson 80 inch twin. It was great stuff for the Hog. Since then, the price has gone astronomical on Redline and H-D!
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    Don't think redline existed when a bmw R69s/US with a good spring loaded solo seat was under my behind-how do they ride bikes with a thin seat on the backbone. Think heavy dino was used.
  • paulcopaulco Member Posts: 3
    Recently changed motor oil in 2000 VW bug. Engine contained standard (regular) motor oil, and it hadn't been changed in 2+ years. I put in a 5W40 synthetic. Car is now running very sluggish and knocking a little. Any thoughts?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The changing of your oil may simply have been a case of too little, too late. Your engine may already be toast.
  • paulcopaulco Member Posts: 3
    OK, thanks for your reply.

    More information: after changing the oil, I checked and re-checked the oil level. While doing that, I cracked and broke a part of the dipstick tube, which is plastic. We got that replaced the next day at the VW dealership. While at VW dealership, we also asked them to check on why "check engine" light was always lit. They did check on that and fixed it so it was no longer on all the time.

    Then, next day after leaving, engine became very sluggish all at once. Because of this sudden onset, I'm thinking it wasn't just a coincidence of long-time neglect.

    Your thoughts?
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    During the two years that the oil was not changed, was it being driven or was it in storage or something?
  • paulcopaulco Member Posts: 3
    It was being driven, probably ~10k miles per year.

    I emphasize that engine was very sluggish, but not knocking.

    Spun bearing? In any case, it's at the garage and will have a diagnosis soon.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    It may be some wire/hose/etc. go knocked loose during the whole oil change/dipstick tube thing. I can think of no oil-change specific thing that would do what you describe, sythetic oil or dino-based.
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    while changing channels with the tv remote - is it really a guy thing like comedians say - caught an ion life show. Oil - castrol - bmw race cars, not attacking bob's guru - but the bmw team member comment was, paraphrasing, thin oil has shown to produce 5hp or more, but wouldn't want that in a personal car and try to do 100k kilometers, not good for the bearings.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I about went crazy trying to locate the oil filter on our brand new 2009 Vibe AWD. Eventually, I jacked it up, set jack stand in place, and crawled under. I quickly saw that one front corner of the oil pan was "pushed in" and the oil filter occupied that corner, sitting there where I would usually expect to see just another regular angular corner in the pan! And this Toyota engine uses 5W-20, as so many new cars do. Yet, the manual says it holds only 4.5 quarts, rather than the 5 or 6 quarts that I would expect in a 2.4 liter engine using such light oil. I do not expect that to be a problem. Next I must determine what after market filter will fit it. Anyone already got the answer?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I wouldn't give the 4.5 qts a second thought - no cars that I know of take 6, and most cars went from 5 to 4.5 when oil filters shrank, years ago.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I wouldn't give the 4.5 qts a second thought - no cars that I know of take 6, and most cars went from 5 to 4.5 when oil filters shrank, years ago.

    He-he, playing Devil's Advocate here; every BMW sold in the States for at least the last ten years has taken seven or more quarts of oil, including their 2.5 liter models.

    That said, 4.5 quarts sounds about right for the Toyota engine.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Right you are, but the 4 cyls did take less (many moons ago...)
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    My 2002 Mercury Mountaineer uses 6 quarts of 5W-20. So for at least the last 6 years, light oil in large quantities has been around.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Well, I was correct...in stating "that I know of"...learn something new every day. :blush: I do still believe that a 4.5 qt capacity is nothing to be concerned about, given reasonable maintenance.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    And I agree! In a way, 6 quart crankcases are "wasteful" in volume terms, although the reason for the lighter oil is to gain gasoline mileage. I have long ago come to the conclusion that any car that uses 5W-20 can readily use 5W-30. There are the usual warranty considerations, of course.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Why would you expect engine using lighter oil to have a larger capacity?

    My wife's VW takes 6 quarts in a 2.5 (5 cyl) and that is 5W-40. Used to have a Sentra that took only 3.5 or 3.75, IIRC...but that was only a 1.6L.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I say that based on the idea that modern engines using 5W-20 probably shear and otherwise "use up" the 5W-20 faster than would occur were it 5W-30. It is strictly based on assumptions, let me assure you!
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    Second oil change with Valvoline Syn but not completely. Knowingly and without malice but with forethought, substituted one quart of Ashland with one quart of Redline. May do it again the with the remaining quart of Redline at next change.
  • tired_old_davetired_old_dave Member Posts: 710
    Somewhere a few months back (maybe at Bob's) read discussion of hot versus cold motor for oil change drain. Search at Edmunds hit post #339 by chuttie 01/22/2001. The response post comment took me to post #676 by bluebeast in Synthethic motor oil.

    Changed out the first run of Redline on a Saturday morning with a cold motor. Got one-half quart more dirty oil out.

    No delay in oil pressure time on start up. Was the quiet start up due to Redline on the metal. Two posts two vehicles.
  • wtd44wtd44 Member Posts: 1,208
    I suspect the Redline delivered some syn class to the Ashland brew that improved the overall oil change.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Some of you will remember the discussions of a low oil pressure problem that my kid was having with his Jetta. After driving with out any problems recurring for several months using 20W-50, he decided to buy an oil pressure gauge and do some diagnostic work of his own. He changed the oil to 10W-40 without changing the filter just to do some testing.

    He eventually came to the conclusion that the problem was probably actually the oil pump and he decided to attempt to replace this himself. He was successful in doing this and it seems that now the pressure is well above spec, with conventional 10W-40 oil in there. He is happy as he seems to have solved the problem for about $100 and 7-8 hours of his time (which is not worth much, as he earns less than $7 per hour and I think he'd rather be under his car than working over a fast food grill :) ).
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Sounds good - always nice to find a real cure, no hand waving required! And good experience for him too.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    He's smarter than a lot of repair shops, who don't even bother to put an analog gauge in there to find out what's what. They just throw a few parts at the car, then declare "needs a new engine".
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    Yes he has learned a lot, vwvortex has been a great resource for him. The shop that did put a guage on concluded it was engine wear. The VW specialist who had looked at it way back at the beginning of this adventure did say "probably the oil pump" (but my son was reluctant to spend $350 on a "probably"). So I imagine he wins my kids future business for things he does not want to do himself.
  • mtnmike1mtnmike1 Member Posts: 2
    1997 Grand Am 3100 V6 is blowing the oil filter gasket. Why and how to fix the problem.? :mad:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Blowing the oil filter gasket? Hmmm, are you sure there isn't another gasket still on the filter mount from your previous filter?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oil pressure relief valve is sticking, would be my guess.

    Second guess is that the filter is being "double-gasketed", that is, there's an old gasket stuck to the motor that's hard to spot.
  • mtnmike1mtnmike1 Member Posts: 2
    Yes, I'm sure. It happened while driving down the road. I replaced the old one with a new one. I started it up after refilling with oil. It ran fine for about two minutes and then blew the oil out from the filter in one big gush. Could there be a clog somewhere?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    pressure relief valve I think. Vital part. But get in there and look close for double-gasketing, too.
  • msmbmsmb Member Posts: 41
    have a 2007 sonata 2.4L with standard transmission and I am now getting ready for my next oil change. Until now have been buying oil filters from the dealer. But the dealer is charging me $12 for the filter; and it is not a cartridge filter or anything but the normal Hyundai filter for the 2007 4cyl. So I am looking online for filters. I find 2 that claim they are OEM filters: Full or Bosch. Can anyone tell me if these are indeed the manufacturers who make the Hyundai filters and if these would be considered just as if I went to the dealer and bought the filter there. However, I assume that these filters have either the Bosch or Full name on them.
  • coldcrankercoldcranker Member Posts: 877
    As long as you don't get a Fram, you should be OK. Purolators are well liked. Long story not repeatable here, over many years of observing testers and people tearing the things apart to see what is going on inside various brands, but view Oil Filter Study Report for an example of the latest report. Other studies were on the web in years past, so the picture emerges. I'd recommend just going to Walmart or Autozone or Pep Boys, etc., and picking up a Purolator or Mobil1 oil filter to fit your Hyundai at the cheapest possible price, and, yes, your dealer is charging a lot for a can with some paper filter inside.
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