Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

vondervare · January 2001

I read this whole thread, and that one was my fondest joke so far! Thanks guys, and I thought this was a dicussion on various oils. I was not counting on the humor. It was humor right?

ccotenj · January 2001

0patience... well, by your handle we didn't expect you to have the patience to explain the whole thing in detail...

hopefully wayn will understand from the abridged version you gave... and you are right, you rarely do get to use slipperiness...

vonder ... you're kidding... someone actually posted that for real? how did i miss that?

-Chris

div2 · January 2001

The "W" DOES stand for winter. No joke. Oils are classified by grade and viscosity; there is no such thing as oil "weight". A lubrication engineer corrected this misconception at a CCA tech session I attended a few years back.

girlwithtools · January 2001

Two nights ago, I changed the oil in my 97 Bonneville from 10w-30 to 5w-30 Mobil 1. Eighty miles after my oil change, I started my car and when the engine temp hit 200* my pressure gauge started to spike off the charts! The oil level is good and the filter is on correctly (I double checked). I'm am curious what is causing this. Any ideas?

Heidi

ccotenj · January 2001

honestly, i had never heard of that...

-Chris

j1234b · January 2001

I would appreciate any suggestions on who to contact to purchase Mobil 1 oil and Mobil filters online. Walmart's prices are $4.08/qt and $9.95/filter. Not sure if the internet will provide any advantage here. Thanks!

Jim

adc100 · January 2001

$3.59 forthe oil and $8.99 for the filter and no shipping.

div2 · January 2001

I know. It was a Valvoline tech. He also showed a really scary video of cold start tests of a Chrysler 2.2 4 cylinder using a clear plastic valve cover. They evaluated various oils at @-10F. Some of the poor quality oils didn't start showing up at the cam bearings until two minutes after start up- and when they did it was in a syrupy dribble. The good stuff coated the valve cover with oil spray within a couple of seconds.

0patience · January 2001

girlwithtools,
It sounds like the Great synthetic oil everyone talks about has flushed some gunk into the relief of the oil pump and is causing it to stick.
BUT,have a manual oil pressure guage put on it to confirm the oil pressure.
It may be that the oil pressure sender wire has come loose or the sender is bad. A direct ground of the wire will peg the guage.

div2,
The video you are talking about deals with 10w30 oil and if you are running at -10F you wouldn't be running that oil anyway.
And it also shows the oil pressure below 40 psi, which couln't happen, the oil pressure in that situation would be near 80 psi.At 40F,the oil will work in seconds to get through the entire system.
I'm sorry, but the brand name oils (Chevron,Valvoline and others) will adequately lubricate the system without any damage to the engine. Most of the time, the serious damage results from someone believing what the snake oil salesmen tell them and they ignore the basic maintenance schedules.

girlwithtools · January 2001

Thanks for the insight. It had crossed my mind that the $500 mouse, which ate through the oxygen sensor parts in my Volvo, might still be alive (even after the bounty was issued) and perhaps reeked havoc on the Bonnie - this being the result. Either way, an accreditted relative will be arriving this afternoon with the manual gauge and we should have an idea or two.

Thanks again. . .hs

reid8 · January 2001

If a new car had synthetic. oil in from the factory will the book say so?

yurakm · January 2001

The factory-filled Castrol synthetic oil was an option for 2000 Firebird. Hardly GM prints separate books for the option.

I believe, though, the synthetic oil is listed on the sticker, as with other options.

div2 · January 2001

It appears that you are conducting a jihad aginst synthetics, but let me make something clear: I have never said that conventional oils are a poor choice for the average driver- in fact, in my monthly auto care column I have stated repeatedly that a name brand SJ rated conventional oil of the proper viscosity will meet the needs of 99% of the motoring public. That said, I have two european cars, one of which sees several track days per year. I also have an SUV that I depend on in inclement weather, and I want it to last as long as possible(primarily so I can spend money on my track car). I have made the decision to run Mobil 1 or the proprietary factory synthetics in the engines and drivelines of my vehicles to ensure that they last as long as possible. The certain knowledge that my vehicles are receiving the best lubrication possible more than outweighs the small additional cost. Now, if I was only driving a transportation appliance and trading every few years, I'd run conventional oil as well. However, owners of BMWs, Mercedes, Porsches, and other thoroughbreds should pay attention to what oils the manufacturer installs at the factory. In most cases, the engine and driveline receive synthetic lubricants.

0patience · January 2001

No, I have nothing against synthetics. I do agree that they do have benefits, but for the average person, the benefits are not going to gain them a super difference as some would lead them to believe. If they follow the manufacture's specifications, then they will do just fine and as has been shown, switching can sometimes create more problems than good. I'm not saying that sythetics aren't worth using, but I can't see where they are cost effective. But this isn't the synthetic oil topic, so I'm not going to go back and forth on this. I've already taken up enough space on this subject.

BTW, this monthly auto care column would be where? I'd like to see it.

div2 · January 2001

"jihad" is Arabic for "holy war". My column is a monthly I write for a local newspaper in my KY county of @50,000. I've been doing it for about five years. Lots of fun, and aimed at the average non-enthusiast driver. It's not yet online. Just for laughs, here's an article I wrote on a much more interesting topic: http://www.bmwcca.org/roundel00/0600fea.htm

stever · January 2001

Since '73, I've done 6 or 8 Alaska Highway round-trips, including one ferry/drive up in January of '81 in a beater Datsun wagon of uncertain mid-70's vintage. A new BMW? HA!, that's too easy:-).

But I'm with 0patience on this one; plain old dead dino for me, thank you. I got 17 winters out of one car and 10 from another cold-starting in Anchorage using non-synthetic stuff. Maybe if I lived in Fairbanks or Duluth....YMMV.

Steve_
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0patience · January 2001

I used to drive that highway to bring nets up to Kodiak. My family lived in Kodiak in the late 70s and I had to haul nets from Seattle to Kodiak a couple times a year.

BTW,
the AlCan highway was not near as nice as it is now.

oilcan2 · January 2001

I agree with div2 that the use of syn. oils is
not for everyone,driver #1's cost effectiveness
is not the same as driver # 2's.
I also agree that Opaitience puts down syn oil
every chanece he gets,an example being post 369
the bold type "great" oil is now the culprit of the writers problem.
It's true this is not the syn.oil forum it is
the engine oil forum,but that does not mean we
can never talk about syn. oil here as syn oil is
still engine oil.

lspangler · January 2001

The reading I've done seems to point to synthetic more for it's durability than superior "slipperiness". From what I've read, conventional oil will break down over time when exposed to heat. This has been explained as just the heat in a normal engine, severe use just speeds up the breakdown. When you lose viscosity, metal parts begin to touch. Synthetics are impervious to heat, so they can use a much longer drain interval, that's why I use them. If you were to use Amsoil Series 2000, they recommend changing oil every 25,000 with a filter change halfway. Some people think it's crazy, others don't. A friend of mine is a distributor for amsoil and he has 90,000 miles on his big block suburban which he tows large boats with almost daily (he's has a marina). He changes filters every 10k miles and sends a sample in for analysis. He put Amsoil in a 5k miles and hasn't changed it yet, just adds oil when changing filters. Amazing!! I'm sure mobil 1 can do similar things.

So, the biggest benefit to me is the extended drain interval, that more than makes up for the cost.

vondervare · January 2001

To my way of thinking in common terms The meaning of W. in 5W-30 means the oil is of a measured viscosity that flows as 5 viscosity (weight) in winter, and 30 viscosity after warmed up, and at operating temps, as a blended oil.
I can remember non-detergent 30W for air cooled V W Bugs no blend, just 30 viscosity (weight to me)
The fork oil for my motor bike is 10W, so how the hell does that make sense? It is damn near 0 degrees F. here right now, and I'm to much woosie to ride! But it is nice to know that oil will flow as a 10 viscosity (weight) in winter I guess.
The 80W-90 in that bike (differential gears) presently resembles glue, as cold as it is.
One thing that gets me is why does my Volvo with out over drive want 80W-90 gear oil in the tranny, when my Volvo with over drive wants auto tranny fluid?
Same gear box,the only difference is the over drive unit??????

stever · January 2001

I have a friend who's an Amsoil distributor (so he can buy in bulk for himself). An Amsoil tech told him that the "molecular tails" in the synthetic oil literally start to break off around 3,000 miles. So he doesn't extend his interval with it.

He's not an engineer, and this is all heresay:-)
Steve_
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campo57 · January 2001

I have a '92 Bonneville and what might have happened is that the oil pressure sending unit may have quit working. Have this checked out as it was my problem. It's only about a $25 part and very easily installed if you're somewhat handy working on cars. It just screws out and is fairly easy to access.

If you'd like to check to see if this is the problem, post me a message here with your email address and I can email you the test procedures to check if the unit needs to be replaced.

Campo57

lokki · January 2001

Here in Dallas, we have weather than stays well over 100 degrees for weeks at a time (or we have since I've been here, anyhow). I've been using synthetics because I have been led to believe that they can handle high heat conditions better than conventional oils.

I figure that it's a pretty good high heat condition test to sit in bumper to bumper traffic
when the air temp is 105 degrees.

Is there any true to the story that synthetics should stand up better under these conditions?

srivnava · January 2001

I will be picking up my new 2001 Sienna from the dealer next week. I would like to use Synthetic oil instead of the normal ones. Here are couple of questions that I have.

(1.) What synthetic oil to use - 5W30 ??
(2.) Should I drain out the oil that comes from the factory and use the Synthetic oil before driving off from the dealership ?
(3.) If not, should I wait until I break in the engine (1000 miles) before changing to the synthetic oil ?
(4.) Someone suggested that I completely flush out the existing oil before adding the synthetic oil. Is this a special procedure or just a normal oil change ?

Appreciate any feedback.

brucer2 · January 2001

In the order of your questions:

1) Use the same weight oil as recommended by Toyota. The only possible variation on this would be if, say, 5W-30 was for temps up to 90 degrees F, you could go higher with synthetic. A synthetic oil will lubricate properly over a greater temperature range (high and low) than regular oil.

2 & 3) The oil that comes in the engine from the factory is perfectly good. I would leave it there for 1000 miles.

4) According to the information contained on the web sites of producers of synthetic oil, synthetic and conventional oils are compatible. So there is no need to flush the old oil.

armtdm · January 2001

Yes, synthetics flow as low as minus 50 degrees F and also have a much higher upper end as well; well above what dino oil sludges at. Keep using it.

To Sienna owner, 500 -1000 miles, no flush, same weight as specified in the manual and use Mobil 1, Amsoil or Redline with Mobil 1 or Amsoil or Pure One filters. Yes they are better then the OEM, my oil analysis shows it!

brucer2 · January 2001

In the order of your questions:

1) Use the same weight oil as recommended by Toyota. The only possible variation on this would be if, say, 5W-30 was for temps up to 90 degrees F, you could go higher with synthetic. A synthetic oil will lubricate properly over a greater temperature range (high and low) than regular oil.

2 & 3) The oil that comes in the engine from the factory is perfectly good. I would leave it there for 1000 miles.

4) According to the information contained on the web sites of producers of synthetic oil, synthetic and conventional oils are compatible. So there is no need to flush the old oil.

vadp · January 2001

At least two synthetic oil manufacturer, RedLine and Royal Purple, recommend to keep the factory oil for at least 3,000 miles for the break-in purposes.

http://www.synerlec.com/faq.html

inky · February 2001

This product make great claims. Anyone back this up? Not pure synthetic and costs $5 per quart.
INKY

armtdm · February 2001

I thought that it was 100% true synthetic and not reformulated molecules like Castrol?
Where did the info come from that Royal Purple was not 100% synthetic? I don't use it, too hard to find and expensive but I am curious.

brucer2 · February 2001

All synthetic oils are made from reformulated molecules. That's why it's synthetic. The difference between Castrol and the other synthetics is what they start with. (You all read the entire article in C&D on the subject, didn't you?)

stealth1969 · February 2001

From their web site the link above:

If your street products are not 100% synthetic, why are they priced similar to a full synthetic?

The Synerlec technology provides the best protection and performance increases available, however, it is very expensive. We have blended our street oils to exceed the performance characteristics of any other blended or "Full" synthetic. If having a full synthetic is important, we have our racing line which can be considered a "Full" synthetic.

They say it isn't full synthetic.

armtdm · February 2001

At least Royal Purple is honest about their product line. Sorry about the reformulated molecule syntax. I meant that Castrol is reformulated dino molecules whereas synthetic starts from a gas!!!!!!!!!!!!

stxrx7 · February 2001

I drive a Mazda RX-7 Turbo. The rotary engine runs at extremely high temperatures, especially in the hot south Texas summers. I use 10W30 November - February, but I switch to 20W50 every March. Some believe that you should NEVER use synthetic oil in a rotary engine, but others use it exclusively. Personally, I believe that you can get similar performance by using a higher viscosity oil that you would get using a synthetic IN VERY HOT WEATHER (85+ degrees). By the way, I change my oil and filter every three months, regardless of miles (always under 3,000). Any comments?

adc100 · February 2001

you should not use syn in rotary. I'm going to find out why. I'll get back. About the higher viscosity oil.. It depends what you mean about performance. Higher vis oils protect better, but if the equipment is not designed for it the higher vis oil heats up and then becomes less viscous but the key is it gets hotter. Conventional oils will break down faster than syn oils. Above 150 degrees the life of an oil (due to oxidizing) is cut in half for every 15 degrees of temperature increase for any conventional oil. Notice I said conventional oils. Syn doesn't have that problem until much higher.

adc100 · February 2001

Mobil has tested Mobil 1 in rotary engines with "excellent results" they won't recommend because of Mazda's concerns and the resulting liability issues. Whats up with Mazda??

Later

steve234 · February 2001

The early wanka cycle engines had major problems with the seals leaking. This is on of the main reasons for the lack of confidence many had in the rotaries. I suspect that Mazda is paranoid about certification of any oil that does not have a proven track record in their engines.

adc100 · February 2001

You're probably right I had forgotton about that.

Al

khanji · February 2001

I've just bought a 97 Civic HX with 52000 miles on it. The previous owner was using convetional Valvoline 10W 30 most of the time and sometimes 5W 30. I want the opinion of all the experts out there that would it be better for me to move to synthetic. I live in LA and obviously temperature dont go much down even in winters. If it would be better for me to move to synthetic, which brand should i use and also what would be the procedure to move to synthetic. Can I do it at once or have to move gradually over next few oil changes. Lastly, if using conventional oil is ok, then should i use 5w 30 or 10w 30, and also which is the best brand for that.

adc100 · February 2001

You'll find lots of disagreement here. I personally would start with a mix of no more than 50% syn for the first oil change or two. You will find that the engine oil will become darker quicker because the syn begins to clean up engine. You will still be reaping the benefits of syn. When it gets to the point of getting black and you can't see the dipstick through it even a little then it's time to change. It should be O.K for at least 3000 miles though. Mobil 1 or Amsoil- others may not be true syn. Use either 5W-30 or 10W-30 will more than work. The 30 number is the viscosity at operating temperature in theory both are the same viscosity here. If the vehicle consumes some oil than I would probably opt for the 10W-30. Like I sid, that's what I would do based on my personal observations and a lot of reading on the subject. I could be wrong though.

Later
Al

nematode · February 2001

a few months back. Do you think that synth oil (full/blend) actually extends the life of the car?

I'm know it offers superior protection, and I dont question that, but will you own your car long enough to reap the benefits? If you will own your car 25 years or more its a mute point but most people dont own their cars that long. I'm bringing this up again because I'm a long oil change interval person. 6000-7500mile changes with regular dino oil (no additional filter changes either). Never had any engine problems. Driving an 89 Taurus right now that has 140k and still gets close to 30mpg on the highway on 6000 mile changes. No engine problems ever. All but one of my cars were traded in at between 140k and 180k or 5-10 years old (except the Tarus which I'm keeping until it dies). Engines running perfectly when traded/sold/given away. Remember, I'm not questioning the merits of synthetic oil itself, rather the reason for using it....to extend the life of the car. That is why people use it, right???

If I did use synth I would probably go 25-50k miles per change and just change the filter a couple of times. It would save a ton of time.

OFF TOPIC:
My big question is how to I keep transmissions from breaking down? Thats where I've been thinking of going with synth. Thats usually been the reason I have had to trade cars in. Engines seem fine on long oil change intervals. Transmissions on the other hand are a little weird. I have tried 15k intervals and 30k intervals and they work about the same. At around 100-150k the transmission starts to die. My sister owned a car where she NEVER changed the transmission fluid and still got to 140k before it was traded. I dont have the guts to try that.

armtdm · February 2001

Well, honestly don't know, especially if you have done so well with the dino. Perhaps you do a lot of highwya driving. I would not change if you do not live in a cold climate or see any need for synthetics.

On the tranny side, again, cold climates a definite plus. I have used synthetic and do in my trannies but the longest test I have is 130,000 miles so it still does not meet your standards. I think tranny components simply do not last long beyond 100,000-150,000 miles regardless of what you use. And, synthetic transmission fluid is significantly more expensive then dino and if you get it flushed to get all the fuild you are talking 7-10 quarts versus a drain of 3-5 quarts. I use the drain and fill myself, flushes scare me.

adc100 · February 2001

While I also agree with what armtdm says. You could throw a quart of the syn in with your regular oil. You are less likely to have a seal leak and you'll get some benefits. Better than using the blend which has only about 10% syn for double conv. price. Yer living on borrowed time with that Ford tranny based on their track record. I'm sure you realize this. Too late for syn here. Swammy sees a transmission in your future. How many times have you changed rotors on that puppy?? Just kiddin'.

Later,
Al

timmyg71 · February 2001

First, I have to admit that I have only used dino for as long as I have had vehicles (20 years). Using the standard 3000 mile change, I haven't seen any problems with the engines, or transmissions('86 Olds Ciera with 2.5L & 145k as an example), except for one major factor where I live - cold weather. I live in northern Minnesota where we can get lows in the -20's and summer highs in the 90's. I usually used 5/30 in the winter and 10/40 in the summer. If I were to switch to syn. (for cold starts and viscosity reasons), what factors should I look for? Please remember, I am new to the technology.

Thanks for the help in advance.

timmyg

adc100 · February 2001

I'm always leary of changing to syn totally in older cars. Going to 100% syn could cause seal leakage after prolonged use with conventional oil. You are right- winter time is a prime advantage for syn oils. Mobil 1 5W30 pumps at 58 below zero.The coldest here in Pa. I can remember was about that temp. My cars are parked outside and crank over just fine with syn. I am the biggest fan of syn oil there is but in your case, as I've said a number of times- I would go with a mix of no more than 50% syn. Why not start with a quart at your next change and go from there? You'll get the benefits of better wear, etc and have low risk on the seals/gaskets. Check out the synthetic oil board. (at your own risk) Mobil 1 or Amsoil are to two oils to go with- others may not be fully 100% syn in spite of the claims. The term synthetic is not specifically defined by API, SAE, or any other agency.

Later, Good Luck
Al

reid8 · February 2001

How about on a 99 truck with 45,000.Would you switch in it? I like your idea of mixing before switching completly but I sure don't want any oil leaks.Thanks for your input.
Bill

armtdm · February 2001

Oil leaks ( as a term as used with synthetics) is slightly exaggerated, in over 6 cars that I have either switched to synthetic or started from 1,000 miles my experience is:
Switched at 30,000 and at 50,000 oil seepage will occur about a year later (when crap from dino oil has been cleaned off) , usually valve cover or oil pan and torqueing the bolts usually stops it. On cars switched at 1000 miles seepage occurs around 90,000 miles. Same areas, Would seepage occur anyway, who knows.

Seepage is defined as wet area, drops of oil forming but never really leaking on to ground or even seeing spots on the driveway. Not a major issue or requiring any repair work to date.

adc100 · February 2001

material used to be the concerns mainly for the PAO (polyalphaolefins-best known syn oil). Since those early times (15-20 years ago), these are no longer issues. Syn although can leak for the reasons which armtdm mentioned and also because of the ability of the syn to "fit" through small crevices. I like the idea of converting gradually because syn oils clean up your engine and may dissolve a lot of gunk too quickly to suit me. You could probably switch cold turkey and not have any problems, but nothing is ever 100 percent. Amsoil at one time recommended their flush to use before using syn. I never liked that idea. To me, slower is better. If you go 100 percent syn right off the bat, I would change oil after a couple of thousand miles or when the oil turns real dark. Using a mix (50%) will still clean up engine and you can do the first change or two at normal intervals.

You wont be sorry switching,
Al

iusecad · February 2001

I have a '95 Chevy 4x4 with the 5.0L V8 and 61k; for it's entire life its been serviced at the Chevy dealership I bought it at and it's gotten 5w30 every 3k. Whatever brand the dealership uses... (anyone know what they use?) Anyway, my mileage is not so good. I also have a '90 Crown Vic with a 5.0L and 161k that gets 6-8mpg better than my truck. It's oil has been changed everywhere from a Ford dealership to quick change stores; so I'm wondering if maybe I use a synth blend thru a few changes (to clean up the engine) and then start taking my truck to a quick change store I trust (one with Valvoline probably) if that would improve matters? My truck has had all the maintenance req'd and driving style hasn't helped. So whudda'ya think? Is this worth a shot?

Mr_Shiftright · February 2001

It might give some improvement, but I think most of the fuel mileage improvement comes from faster warm-up in cold climates...once the engine is warm, I don't think synthetic is any "slipperier" than any good oil, at least not enough to register on the gas guage....but warming up an engine quickly can save some fuel, definitely, because the quicker you switch off the extra-rich mixture, the better.

I've home-tested synthetics on quite a few of my cars, and my personal results seem to indicate that there is a little bit of improvement in fuel mileage, but not enough to be statistically significant (.5 of a gallon per mile in winter). Best thing was much faster warm-ups. Also, I stretched the oil changes to 5K w/ synthetic, so that was convenient, and thus evened out the cost versus regular oil changed at 2,500.

I'm not a big fan of believing that if the oil looks clean, it's just fine...I go by mileages.

RE: engine life---my research so far shows no "real life" evidence that using synthetic is going to extend your engine's life per se...good care and good driving habits are the key, with or without synthetic.

The benefits of synthetic over regular oil are, IMO, a matter of DEGREE, not a quantum leap, as say for example the benefit of radials over bias ply tires.

You pay a little more and you get a little more. If you want miracles, try prayer.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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