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With synthetic oil there will be less friction while the engine is still cold. The gas, wasted on the friction, will be saved.
Though, I believe the amount of gas saved is not significant, at least except with very short trips. With our light Connecticut winter (about +15 to +25F) it takes about 0.5 mile of moderate city traffic for engine to start warming (the needle starts moving), and after 1.5 miles the needle points to the middle mark.
Did not observe faster engine warm-up after switching to the synthetic oil. Cannot see reason in theory too. Probably just the opposite is true: with lower friction the warming would take a bit longer. Have impression that this is what happened with my car, but the difference is very insignificant, and can be easy explained by other reasons (somewhat more cold winter, tires replaced by other model, etc.)
When it is really cold, the difference is substantial. I lived in Russia for 45 years, and had observed many times how difficult is to start cars when it is cold. With some cars the starter could not not crank-up the engine at -25C (about -11F), and at -30 to -35C (-20 to -30F) all engines using the natural oil had very serious problem with starting.
Measuring the effect on engine life in the real world is very very difficult, as so few people keep their cars for 200K in America.
Therefore, as a soon-to-be duly licensed member of the research community, I'd like to offer my services in performing a long term study on the performance differences between synthetic and non-synthetic oils.
The members of this forum will need to provide me with 8 new BMW 325is. I will provid the oil and filters and pay for the analyses.
Here is how the project vehicles will be used (2 vehicles used in each group, 1 synthetic, 1 non-synthetic:
1) Baseline 325i: Oil changes every 3k miles.
2) 7500 mile service
3) 15000 mile service
4) Oil analysis recomendation - An oil analyses will be performed every 3000 miles. Oil will be changed only when the analysis for the synthetic oil recommends doing so. Analysis of the non-synthetic oil will be for comparison purposes only.
At the end of the project (150,000 miles on each car, approximately 10 years from now) the engines will be broken down and numerous dimension measurements will be taken.
Since 1.2 million miles can take a single driver a long time, I will likely enlist the aid of my wife and a few close friends. Not to worry, I will meticulously monitor total miles driven so that each vehicle receives (on average) identical abuse.
The sooner this forum provides me with the vehicles, the sooner I can begin!
:-)
oh well, thanks for your input... oil (brand) is the only thing I haven't tried changing to see some improvement in mileage. Even a slight 2mpg improvement would've been fine by me...
I don't believe that factory engineers are this stupid.
I didn't want to seem demanding. Besides, my wife likes the idea of a 3 series.
What's with all these conspiracy theories anyway? Automakers have spent gazillions of dollars to make their cars last longer...this is why people buy more Toyotas and BMWs than Oldsmobiles.
Do you really think an automaker would a) deliberately encourage you to do something to blow up your (their) engine, thereby ruining their own company's reputation? Do you think this would REALLY sell more cars?
Further, do you really think an automaker would turn down a way to increase their fleet gas mileage by a full 10% (2-3 mpg claims for synthetic oil is what one sees now and then), in order to save $1 a car?
And even more, do you really think automakers are not putting synthetic oil in all their cars so that oil companies can sell more oil to us? And so how does the oil company pay back the automaker for sacrificing fuel mileage and longevity? And if they DO pay back the automakers in this conspiracy, how do they make money selling us more oil and filters?
I believe the answer is really much more simple...the oil the factory puts in your car does a great job just as it is, and synthetics' advantages barely, if at all, offset the expense of installing it...presuming we are talking about ordinary passenger cars on ordinary roads being driven by ordinary drivers.
If you operate a railway, or heavy trucking, or you are a NASCAR driver, we can start a different discussion about the pros and cons of oils.
1. Checker, chevy in-line 6, ~500,000 miles , done in by a bus.
2. Chevy impala cab, 4.3 V-6, ~375,000 miles, done in by a bad computer.
3. Chevy impala cab, 4.6(?) V-8, ~200,000 miles, done in by retirement
What I said was that not all racing teams use synthetic, and that some very fast cars go a very long way on regular oil on a race track. What I meant to imply is that synthetic oil is not a given in racing....it's the team's choice and some choose it and some don't.
I'm still gonna check with my friend who races SERIOUS GT classes...I'll let you know what he uses...
Later,
Al
I really wanna know.
Thanks.
But the question wasn't directed towards you, if you noticed.
Thanks.
http://www.rocklube.com/oil.htm
Looks high performance to me.
Anyway, that's a serious class of race car and he says most of the teams he knows in that class of racing use Redline....seems to be the hot stuff that most teams are using in his particular specialty of racing. Sometimes they'll use what a sponsor gives them, too.
On a less positive note, his engine blew up. Diagnostic guess was that an air pocket in the cooling system overheated the motor. Racing is not called the "cruel sport" for nothing.
My other buddy races SCCA and doesn't use synthetic, but he doesn't go 200 mph either, although he'd like to. He tends to "save" his car and hope the hotdogs blow up...sometimes he wins that way.
LOL
BTW, gooooood joke.
heng: as to your post I said:. "heng...if I were you I would keeep using that oil. I won't because to me it's just information that I can't verify. Perhaps if He would have used Mobil 1 they would still be running. 1,000,000 miles for a Mercedes- engine in good condition at the end."
Where's the documentation???? what am I missing.???
Later,Al
I guess I wouldn't be too worried about going 12k between changes, as far as the motor goes, but I feel better when someone's been under there looking things over a little more often than once a year... and I hate doing my own maintenance... it's just too dang cold...
I also won't use Amsoil because of their shady past and multi-level-marketing. It's probably OK stuff, however, as it is PAO-based, but there are other brands out there I trust more.
This summer I'm going to try Redline 10W30 in my car.
I feel very comfortable saying I get about 1-2% more gas mileage with synthetic oil in my crankcase. I get between 43-45mpg in the summer with my wide, performance tires on my car. 39-42mpg in the winter.
What really opened my eyes to the difference synthetics make is putting synthetic oil in a pull-start lawnmower. I couldn't believe how much easier the thing was to pull start ... which was half the battle in getting the grass mowed. >:^)
I also use Redline MTL in my manual transmission. This stuff is just incredible ... especially if you live where it gets really cold.
I use somewhat extended drain intervals of 5-6,000 miles between oil& filter changes.
Oh, and on Hondas, you should always use the OEM filters. They are the best made, have the most filtration area and can be bought for $4 each at many online places. Take a peek:
http://www.tech2tech.net/library/oilfiltr.htm
--- Bror Jace
I think Redline products are great, too, and I've had good luck in MOST, but not all, gearboxes. It doesn't always improve shifting, etc., and might actually make it worse on certain cars...so don't expect miracles. Also kind of expensive. It helped shifting in my Porsche but really messed up the shifts on my Alfa...go figure....and didn't notice anything one way or the other on my Isuzu Trooper. I'm going to try some in the differential of my diesel Mercedes, which had some debris in it that I didn't like the looks of.
Again, I think your lawnmower proves that the 1%-2% improvement you might see in fuel mileage with synthetic oil relates mostly to faster warm-ups on a cold engine. I don't see frictional loses with a high-revving warm engine being very different between regular multi-weight or synthetic oil.
I like RedLine MT90 in my 6 spd manual but use Amsoil for all other cars (5 in all on syntheitc oil, trans fuid etc.) I have found it to be great over the 9 years I have used it but would probably use Mobi 1 if I did not have quick access. Agree A.J. appears sleazy! I also feel they would do much better in regular retail outlets. I also use the cheapest synthetic I can find for my lawn mower etc. and I agree, a big difference. Mostly Havoline is the cheapest I can find at $2.99/quart. I do not think that switching brands is a great idea but offer no scientific reason as to why. I have stuck with Amsoil the whole time. Not sure about Honda filters but my oil analysis changed significantly when I switched from Toyota OEM oil filters to Amsoil filters.
made, have the most filtration area and can be bought for $4 each."
Sorry, the link didn't work for me.
I don't think that Honda makes its own oil filters. Probably they're just rebadged ones, made by
Champion Labs or some other big filter manufacturer.
If it's true, the filter won't differ from any other filter brand produced by that manufacturer.
Redline compares its (and other) synthetic oils on its site to some conventional oils in this respect. There was a Mustang magazine that tried Redline 10W30 vs a 10W30 conventonal oil in a 5.0 Mustang on a dyno. The synthetic gave a few more horsepower through the first 2/3 of the rev range but as things approached 6,000 rpms, the dino oil showed a bit more power. I think this is because the multi-vis oils begin to thin out under these severe conditions. This would rob less power as compared to a more stable fluid (like the Redline oil).
armtdm, I got my information on Amsoil from an australian oil wholesaler that had a basic "History of Synthetics" section on their site. Unfortunately, the link doesn't work but supposedly Amsoil's initial formula (pre-PAO) was something that was credited with damaging numerous engines and Amsoil blamed the owners for not properly 'prepping' their engines so they switched to a Mobil 1-like PAO formula. I've also talked to one guy (self described racer/enthusiast) that had supposedly followed up on Amsoils testimonials to find that they weren't as Amsoil described them. Also, we all look at their claims of greatly extended change intervals, vast increases in mileage, etc ... So, while I don't find them terribly credible, I don't think the oil the sell is BAD, just over-hyped and (probably) over-priced.
I'm not familiar with Toyota OEM filters, sorry.
vadp, you are correct. All of the Honda filters I've seen are made by Filtech which is a company somewhere here in the U.S. I hear Fram also makes filters for Honda (but to Honda's notoriously strict standards) but I have not seen them. I hear these Fram filters are more common in Canada. I checked that link and it just worked for me.
--- Bror Jace
Yea, I have heard those early stories of Amosil, probably true. Their claims are a little too much to digest however, I will say this. Based on my personal experience a great oil and filter. I go extended drains but not as far as they claim I can. Second, when Mobil 1 was first introduced many years ago they claimed 25,000 miles between changes. They subsequently backed off (although I feel they could still claim that) well, they simply stopped advertising that. I think they backed off due to pressure from the auto manufacturers who needed the service business and from their own dino side of the business that saw huge sales declines if 25,000 caught on. So, I am not so pleased with a company that backs off due to pressure from other industries or its' own profits.( they never said it could not go 25,000 when they ceased to advertise that. They just stopped advertising it). Amsoil at least has the ***** to say 25,000 miles and has not backed off on that over the years. RedLine also makes extended drain claims.
Do you drive more than 25k miles per year, though, to say nothing about 35k? Of my friends very few do. Couple of them are commuting 50-60 miles in one direction. The third lives on his company premises, zero commute, but he is a manager of a small track fleet.
Looks as the above recommendations are mostly for road warriors: salesman etc.
while Mr. Shiftright wrote: for those of us who don't want to change oil quite so frequently
i commute 2120 miles minimum every 4 weeks to work,
all interstate driving 72-75 miles per hour when its safe to do so...
i have no desire to crawl under my escort every 5 or 6 weeks to change my dino oil, so i use a synthetic. i have extended my drain interval to 6k from 5k after reading the good comments here and on the synthetic oil thread.
i could probably go longer between changes but the 6k interval seems to be working well for me.
and yes, i also use the mobil 1 filter, for my peace of mind.
my 2cents,
take care all,
lee