Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

adc100 · May 2001

1978 Subaru engine would not make 300,000 miles unless it were towed 200,000 miles.

brorjace · May 2001

I'm pretty sure that Castrol Syntec was introduced in either 1992 or early 1993. I just thought I'd add that ... >;^)

--- Bror Jace

overthetop · May 2001

My Subaru is a 1990. So over 11 years or so it has accumulated 525,000 km that works out to about 50,000KM/ year.

The most recent oil (for the past 3 years or so) was Castrol. I have changed 3 different synthetics over the life of the car. ALthough I tried to stay with one, this proved to be impossible since the first oils I used were not always available. I have to check my records to be precise as to their brands. But this is my also my point I believe. I just think that the oil is one part of the equation.If you check the discussion on "low oil pressure" you will see that as of last week I left synthetics for a heavier weight oil because my oil lamp came on. As it turns out it my pressure was fine, but my sensor was not. I might as well stayed with my synthetic but to be honest, I don't think I want to spend more money that necessary on this car.

As for my MX-3, it was the 25th anniversary edition. I spent a lot of time maintaining this thing properly, but to no end.It started to burn oil at 50,000 KM. it was scrapped at 150,000 Km when someone ran over me with a pathfiner, but at this point the idle was terrible, it was burning 2-3 litres of oil between changes etc... It turned out to be a blessing that it was in an accident becuase I would of had to rebuild or change the engine. The peripherals on this car were also a pain. Bearings, steering [non-permissible content removed]/lies, suspension you name it.

BTW, I do a lot of driving including city. The Subaru has seen everything although I did admit most of it was highway

bmaige · May 2001

I have heard that certain parts of natural oils, perhaps the detergent qualities, break down over a period of time or miles, hence the reason for oil changes. However, I had a friend who said he participated in an experiment when he was in service in which they took identical vehicles, changed the oil and filter per manufacturer's recommendations in one group, and just changed the filter and added a quart of oil to compensate for that lost in the filter change in the other. His story was when they tore the engines down and miked them the ones in which they just changed the filter and added a quart had less wear than the one in which they changed oil and filter at recommended intervals.

Amsoil had a similar recommendation at one time, I think, but recommended adding an adapter to allow a second filter, and changing one of them each time at the service interval, alternating the one changed.

My question is, does anyone know why fossil based oil is completely changed rather than using a "change the filter and add a quart" technique, and if synthetics could be done this way using the vehicle's normal single oil filter without endangering the engine, or is there a break down of some type, like detergent qualities, in them, too?

adc100 · May 2001

Conventional oils break down because the hydrocarbon chains "break down" or oxidize (combine with oxygen-like when something burns). This process is expedited primarily because of heat. The useful life of a conventional oil is cut in half for every 10-15 degrees above 150 degrees F. Oxidation is also increased because of certain impurities and especially water in the oil.

Synthetic oils depending on the application can last anywhere from 3 to say 10+ times as long as conventional oils because their oxidation rates are way lower.

As you may have read on this board or on the synthetic board oil analysis is the main tool to tell you how long an engine oil is doing its job. I know this guy who was an Amsoil dealer 10-15 years ago and even though he did not have the second filter on went over 50 miles between changes. Last I knew him he had over 150K on the vehicle. I'm really not sure how long the additives last. One thing which occurs is the TBN (total base number) goes down as the oil becomes acidic and etches moving parts in the presence of moisture.

In a sound engine engine you should easily be able to go a year with a filter change in between with any good quality PAO synthetic oil. But oil analysis could back this up. Personally I go 10 month in one of my vehicles and 12 in the other. I'll probably do the 7500 mile gig on my new one though.

Your service story sounds like a fish story unless the one oil was syn or the guy didn't know how to use a mic. More evident would be the wear on the cam lobes.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2001

Many engines have gone many miles on regular oil. There is no reason to suppose that your engine will automatically last longer with synthetic oil. There are too many other variables in play.

Most people don't keep their cars long enough to ever prove one way or the other if a synthetic oil alone would extend your engine's life. Even large fleet owners who have had good luck with synthetic oil are also throwing in lots of other variables, like regularly scheduled maintenance on all engine components.

If you don't check and replace belts and hoses, or flush your cooling system, or you don't check your dash gauges often, or you drive carelessly, all this would affect engine life.

overthetop · May 2001

with Mr. Shiftright on this one.

adc100 · May 2001

anyone ever said that a vehicle will automatically last longer with syn. And all the things you mentioned + the way an individual drives the car have a bigger impact on vehicle life than syn. But when you look at the big picture, a vehicle whose averave cost is $20,000 and with financing makes it more expensive. Not to mention what many people sacrifice to pay for that vehicle. It just seems silly not to pay a few more dollars for that small amount of life giving fluid that keeps the vehicle going. It gives you a little extra insurance against overheating perhaps caused by a cooling failure.

BTW Mr.Shiftright..you should have that info by Sat. Have a good holiday.

rcarboni · May 2001

Engines are not made the way they used to be (with the exception of course of some American models). Overhead-cam designs that maximize fuel mileage with power run faster, potentially hotter, and maintain much tighter tolerances than the designs of just a few years ago. What used to work isn't optimal now.

This is not to say that dinos can't do the job, but why is Mercedes suggesting to customers that they use synthetics exclusively? They must think there is some advantage to make this request.

gtownguy · May 2001

rcarboni- The basic company car at my company are mercedes. All the excecutives have them. They get expensive routine services from a large MB dealer (why not- money not theirs)and the oil used as stated on the receipts is Castol 10W40 GTX, Where did you hear Mercedes suggesting to use synthetics?

armtdm · May 2001

This recommended use of synthetics is for new models and don't forget, the suggested change interval, I believe is 15,000 miles

rcarboni · May 2001

I'm reposting this, so don't shoot the messenger.

Mercedes-Benz USA, LLC
A Daimler/Chrysler Company
March 27, 2001

One of the many benefits of owning a Mercedes-Benz is the confidence that comes from knowing your vehicle is backed by some of the world's best automotive engineers. Of course, another is our desire to make sure you continue to get superior performance as long as you own your Mercedes-Benz. For that reason, we ask that you review and follow the two recommendations below regarding the maintenance of your vehicle.

Mercedes-Benz now recommends pure synthetic motor oils.
Based on vehicle performance testing, our engineers have concluded that for vehicles equipped with flexible Service System
(FSS), continued optimal engine performance at service intervals called for by FSS can only be maintained through the
Consistent, long-term use of pure synthetic motor oil.

For that reason, pure synthetic oil is now the only engine lubricant recommended by Mercedes-Benz for 1998 and 1999 model year vehicles equipped with FSS While conventional oils deliver reliable performance, pure synthetic motor oil is engineered to flow faster than conventional oil, thus lubricating your engine more efficiently. Switching to pure synthetic motor oil at your next oil change will allow your engine to perform at its peak

Among the brands of synthetic oil we suggest are Mobil 1, Valvoline, Castrol and Shell. Detailed information on motor oil for your vehicle can be found in the endorsed Mercedes-Benz Factory Approved Service Products booklet

So, if you are currently using one of the recommended brands of pure synthetic motor oil in your vehicle, please continue to do so following FSS-recommended maintenance intervals. If you are using conventional oil, we strongly recommend that you switch to pure synthetic oil at the time of your next FSS scheduled maintenance interval.

Mercedes-Benz - registered trademarks of Daimlerchrysler AG. Stuttgart, Federal Republic of Germany

vadp · May 2001

Even though Castrol is not "pure synthetic". Don't know about Shell.

rcarboni · May 2001

I think they are saying not to use "blends", but you have a good point. I wonder if they investigate each brand for their base stocks.

adc100 · May 2001

the Flexible Service System?? Do all Mercedes have this???

rcarboni · May 2001

Here's the definition:
http://www.autotruck.net/ms/archives/1998/1198/1198bnz.asp

Here's another definition:
http://www.mbca.org/MBCA_flexible_service_system.htm

It's basically an oil monitoring system (probably like GM's, although I would hope more sophisticated) that encourages extended drains.

Mr_Shiftright · May 2001

From what I'm reading here, MB is not recommending synthetic oil in and of itself, but only recommending it if you are going to rely on the FSS system. It also says that no one is quite sure if FSS actually does what it claims to do, that is, ultimately extend engine life. The engineers are hoping that FSS will accomplish this.

So it sounds like MB is trying to cover all bases/liabilities by recommending synthetic oil for anyone who is going to take a leap of faith on very long oil change intervals by religiously adhering to FSS.

In other words, MB is saying that they believe that synthetic oil will do a better job with extended oil change intervals, but that if you don't extend them, the implication is that regular oils are fine.

I would basically agree with all that if I'm reading what I think I'm reading.

adc100 · May 2001

"For that reason, pure synthetic oil is now the only engine lubricant recommended by Mercedes-Benz for 1998 and 1999 model year vehicles equipped with FSS." This statement doesn't give you an out on the "recommendation" as to whether or not you use the FSS. If you own the vehicle-use syn.

The principle of what they are doing is somewhat troubling though. It's very similar to Ford's misdesign of their origional 2.3L engine where clearances and Lobe material were incorrect. They covered it up (in my opinion), by telling the consumer to use this "special" ford oil. That was their '74 model (Pinto). I have often wondered if the oil was synthetic oil!!! Again, one of the reasons I don't always believe that dealers/companies always have my best interests at heart!!

john319 · May 2001

I recently received that same letter from MB on using synthetic for my 2000 MB. Apparently all MB made since 98 has the FSS and the FSS system normally tells you to bring in the car for service at 12k intervals or so, depending how hard you drive, long or short trips, etc. The fss would monitor all of these for you. So basically MB is telling you that if you rely on the FSS then you should use synthetic. My dealer is using Mobil 1 0w-40. All 2001 MB models come filled with synthetic. I know this for a fact as there is a giant MB poster at my dealer's service dept saying that "MB and Mobil 1 joined forces to equip all MY 2001 with synthetics"

Mr_Shiftright · May 2001

I think this is being done as part of automaker's continuing quest to actually produce a "no-maintenance" car at some point....that is, completely sealed systems that you never touch, like your TV set. It's a marketing angle as much as anything....they offer you free maintenance when you buy and then set the schedule so there's no maintenance to be done during warranty!

Well, if it all works out in the end, I guess that's the way we're going, whether we like it or not.

My main objection to extended oil change intervals has always been the same. you need to have a human set of eyes, ears and hands in that engine compartment and under that car more often than every 15,000 miles in my opinion.

armtdm · May 2001

I agree about looking under the hood more often then every 15,000 but that does not mean one must pay for an oil change to accomplish that. Granted, difficult to train the American public to look under the hood and check fluid every 2-3000 miles especially without a garage to do it in but perhaps a drive through fluid check station (if it does not turn into a ripoff for repairs) say $5 for a fluid check up or go to a full service gas pump once every few weeks and ask to check the fluids!!!!

g1994sts · May 2001

It's your best bet for engine longevity. I'm a skeptic, all engine oil manufacturers make the same claims their oil is better. By sticking with one brand of oil I believe you could be slowly destroying your engine. The reason for this is because your depending on one company's formulation philosophy of what a great oil should be, which may not be correct.

That is why I always keep at least 4 different brands on hand and mix them all. Look at penzoil their oil is dark and looks dirty, looks like their working off used oil. Some oils are clear as water. I always blend 1 synthetic with 3 or 4 other brands. I have done this to all my used cars and I have never experienced any so called wear and tear problems.

Did it to an 86 turbo coupe, bought it with 65,000 miles and sold it with 190,000, absolutely no signs of engine wear. Did it to an 89 sable and sold it with 150,000...again no engine wear damage. And now I am applying the same method to my 1994 STS to preserve some serious engine hardware.

adc100 · May 2001

I wouldn't do it because I don't know for certain how all the additive packages work together. Assuming that there is a measure of Quality Control I think you are better off getting the best oil possible. I personally feel that's Mobil 1. I've been using it for 8 years now in 10 cars with excellent results.

armtdm · May 2001

But too messy and time consuming for me plus the additive packages do differ. But you have had good luck with it. I assume you stay with teh same weights when you blend?

Who knows, maybe all oils all are alike, most people believe all gas is the same with a name brand or the discount leaders sold by Costco, Chubbs, East Coast, Crown etc.e tc.

mrdetailer · May 2001

Yesterday I spoke extensively with a Quaker State Expert and found out some interesting things.

1. In July, there will be a new SL oil classification. The SJ will be gone.

2. Quaker State now makes a 5W-20 weight, but in order to reduce wear it is sold only as a synthetic blend. It conforms to the new SL classification, even though it is not listed as such right now.

3. Manufacturers that recommended 10W-30 just a few years ago now recommend 5W-20 even for the same engine. The rep agreed with many here that it was done to reduce gas mileage, not add protection. Higher weights might be used since they were recommended before.

4. At least for the time being, however users of Fords and Hondas that recommend 5W-20 should continue to do it because 5W-30, and 10W-30 have NOT been altered yet to conform to the SL standard. That will begin in July, and should be in the channel soon after that.

5. Quaker state blends are 20% for 4 X 4 and 25%for High Performance synthetic oil. It's not a mystery amount.

heng · May 2001

10 cars in 8 years. How many total miles is that and what is the max total miles on one vehicle using your oil blend?

g1994sts · May 2001

Yes, I do follow the car manufacturers recommended weight. I inferred to say that If a car requires 5 quarts I would pour in the engine 1 quart synthetic, + 2 quarts of a cheap 10$ case oil (not really cheap, these guys make the same ASTM approved Hi-tech oil claims), + 1 quart castrol GTX, + 1 quart whatever is on sale. Totalling 5 quarts.

There are dozens of different engine oil brands on the market, who do you trust?, the guy who's oil costs 18$ case could be an inferior product than the 9$ case. You just don't know.

adc100 · June 2001

I don't use a blend. All these cars are not mine some are my daughter/son and their family. I'm guessing they average 12,000/year. The newer ones and those on warranties got/get changed more often than once a year. Never less than 7500.

g1994sts- how many of those oils meet the ACEA A1/B1-98 specs. You might want to check on that. Plus if you are going to the trouble of concocting the witches brew...even a "bad" batch of Mobil 1 will outperform all conventional oils.
I understand your concern, but I'm not sure you are on to the solution. BTW I also have a healthy doubt when it comes to any manufacture's claims.

tlindeman1 · June 2001

After buying my first new car in 17 years, I have been trying to determine what to do about the initial oil change on my new '01 Civic LX sedan. The manual recommends to NOT change the factory oil for the first 5,000 miles. Tending to overkill when it comes to maintenance, that recommendation goes against my wanting to change out the factory oil early (I thought about 1,500 miles using Honda oil and filter for the next 3,000 miles before switching to synthetic). I was unsure about the advisability of the factory oil recommendation so I contacted 5 local Honda service depts. for their input: 4 of the 5 said that it was their info. that the original oil contained "special additives" to assist in breakin of the engine and should be left in for 5,000 miles to insure optimal break-in. The 5th dealer said he knew nothing of this recommendation and could see no harm with doing the first change early. I thought that "break-in" oil or special additives was bunk and these cars came with regular oil out of the factory. 5,000 miles on a new engine before an oil change seems like a lot to me...I'm not quite sure what to do here...I want to do what's best for the car and it's long-term longevity and understand that technologies with engines, oils and extended-drain intervals has changed a lot. I would like to clarify whether this recommendation is sound and will (reluctantly) leave the factory oil in there for the 5,000 miles recommended if that's the case...

armtdm · June 2001

Well, the first change at 5000 goes agianst my grain too but I have a 2000 that has an oil indicator light which would seem to go on between 5-7,500 miles. I let it go to 4,400 before switching to my synthetic and had the OEM analyzed. As expected, the silicon was extremely high as well as copper. Silicon (which can be dirt) is always high on a new engine as the seals/gaskets today contain it. The copper a surpirse but the engine was breaking in. Basically though and teh iron couont was very good, 5000 seems okay and I would go with the suggestion and then do what you want. For me I will be going to 12,000 miles intervals with the synthetic with a filter half way. That has been my policy on my car. Others I service go from 5,000 to once a year depending on type of driving.

heng · June 2001

Sorry, I got a couple of different posts mixed up.

adc100 · June 2001

The subject of breakin oils has been beaten to death here with the consensus that they don't exist for maybe some brands. It's difficult that one car manufactures is different than anyone elses- but so be it. Does this model take the 5W-20 oil?? That could possibly explain the difference-maybe. Anyway, to be on the safe side I would keep it in for at least most of the 5000 miles. I'm not sure I would keep it in the whole time. The filter should take the junk out. You could change filters at say 2000 miles. Maybe that would make you feel better. You could then add some syn to make up the difference.

I purchased a new Sentra last year and changed to Mobil 1 after 32 miles. That's just me. I could see no possible reason for not changing.

BTW if you are then going to switch to syn and the requirement is 5W-20, Amsoil I understand is the only syn available. Again, If it were me I'd go to Mobil 5 or 10W-30.

Oh-one other thing, being really easy on the car during break in gives the engine the best chance for a long and healthy life.

adc100 · June 2001

.

brorjace · June 2001

I think Mr. Shiftright is correct. The manufacturers would like to see a maintenance-free car ... but I doubt the dealers would. >;^)

g1994sts, I blend oils as well ... but only for power equipment like lawnmowers, snowblowers, etc ... I think you are taking a gamble ... but only a really teensy one. Good luck. At least you know the blends sold by the manufacturers are usually a rip-off.

Mr. Detailer, interesting info. I see Mobil is already claiming their dino juice meets/exceeds the new "SL" classification. Where did you find those syn. blend percentages? Their website? I looked around a few months ago and couldn't find that kind of info from anyone.

I also agree that the engines have not really changed ... rather it's the policy and politics that are pushing the new 5W20 oil. Fewer pumping losses mean a 0.5-1% better mileage or so.

Lastly, I've heard from too many Ford and Honda owners that have been told to leave the factory oil in for 5,000 miles for it to be nonsense or some kind of myth. Besides, what motive could they POSSIBLY have for lying to you? By keeping you away during that period, they are losing out on at least 1 service call!

--- Bror Jace

hmpower · June 2001

I drive a 99 Civic with about 35,000 miles on it now, and I was used to changing the oil every 3500 miles...I used to drive about 500 miles a week, so this meant it was getting changed every couple months...now I can walk to work, so my driving has dropped significantly, about 100-150 miles/week. I'm going to change it soon and switch to synthetic, what type of interval should I use? Would letting it go 6 months between changes be all right with that? I'd probably run up only about 3500 miles over that time...the miles would still be low, but letting it just sit in there for longer periods of time seems like neglect to me...

armtdm · June 2001

If, when you do start the engine you drive it at least 10 miles the vast majority of times then I would be very comfortable with one year and a filter at 6 months. I do that on my childrens cars all the time. Of course if you live in Canada then every 3 months in the winter, Sept-May.

pks1 · June 2001

a while ago concerning my 1.9L tracer. They said that the engine is not high reving engine. Since it is not so bad to rev it up they said that it be the best to use 10W30 instead of 5W30. Since the 10W30 is supposed to be a lighter oil then the engine would have less trouble being near redline(but anyways how many people drive near redline). But I am still confused what would be better 10w30 or 5w30 or how about thos oild iwth something like 10w50??? 5w50??? which one would be best for a 4 cyl

hmpower · June 2001

I usually try to drive it at least 10-20 miles when I do, because I know that short trips are murder on the engine. I'm used to putting many many miles on a car, it's hard to adjust to a different schedule - thanks for the answer.

old_guy_in_tx · June 2001

The following mag. has an very good article edited by Lawrence Ken in the 5/17/2001.

http://www.machinedesign.com/

Use the search article button and look for the editor above on the date above.. Article says by 2010 Auto engine oil should last 20-30K as standard. Very informative. It is in PDF format..

gtalavera · June 2001

I posted a question on the best dino oil around,
someone replied: valvoline max life. From what I
understand this oil is meant to be use on Higher mileage cars. My vehicle is a new toyota V6 truck which requires a 5W-30.
Don't care much on what the dealer use. Your response would be appreciated.

adc100 · June 2001

has been recognized by many as the best over the years. I suppose If I were forced to use conventional motor oil, that's what I would use.

tc93 · June 2001

I guess since you now live close enough to your work to walk you can't use the excuse of heavy traffic, or an accident, for being late for work? That's a great way to reduce your fuel costs, especially these days of $1.50+ reg. unl.

hmpower · June 2001

Yeah, it cuts down on my available excuses - somehow saying 'my knee was bothering me on the way in today' doesn't cut it for showing up late...but the best benefit is not having to put up with the stress of driving to and from work every day...no traffic jams, no dinged doors...

kyleknicks · June 2001

i know that the nissan maxima calls for 5w30..but i went to get my oil changed today and i had a coupon for oil change at $10 but it's 10w30 oil. well.. i had them put in 10w30, and installed a pure one oil filter and considering it's the beginning of june and how it's kinda warm, it wouldn't make that much of a difference. what do you guys think? im hoping that the 10w30 wouldn't hurt my engine considering it's june and warm weather. i figure that 5w30 is better than 10w30, when the weather is cold or near freezing

adc100 · June 2001

you are on track. Just get it out of there before winter.

armtdm · June 2001

Fear Not. I had a 95 Maxima and a 98 and used 10W30 exclusively, well, synthetic, simply because I did not want multiple weights on the shelf. Never had a problem in 125,000 miles between the two of them. Don't know your year but both the 95 and 98 recommended the 5W.

brorjace · June 2001

pks1, your explanation of what you were told makes little sense. For most temps, I'd use 5W30 ... unless it's awfully warm and then I'd use the 10W30 which handles the heat better.

hmpower, the ONE application I refuse to recommend synthetic for is cars that sit and sit. You are wasting money as your motor oil will 'time out' and require changing long before the synthetic lube's chemical bonds begin to get tested.

Valvoline Max-Life is for old, new and newly rebuilt cars. Check the bottle or call them at 1-800-team val. If you are a little leery about this anyway, use somehting else for the first couple years ... like their All-Climate formula.
>;^)

--- Bror Jace

armtdm · June 2001

Time out? Never heard of oil timing out? Shelf life is not on any container I ever saw?

brorjace · June 2001

armtdm, I meant the oil in your crankcase. Oil in your crankcase sitting there gathering moisture and letting acids do their work with moisture already present.

--- Bror Jace

brorjace · June 2001

Evidently, Chevron is coming out with a 5W20 motor oil if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/nafl/automotive_motor_oils_fs.htm

--- Bror Jace

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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