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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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Comments

  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    air, and consequently the dirt suspended in the air travels the path of least resistance. A particle either blocks the passage or it doesn't. A conventional paper filter has no medium to help trap the particles. Once a pore is blocked the air flows to the next pore which is open. You are only going to trap the dirt which the filter is designed to catch. At some point the engine vacuum will pull the smaller particles through the filter if it gets clogged. I'd rather have a new, clean filter.
  • shekharpatelshekharpatel Member Posts: 27
    All of you who are sold on the idea of "dirty filter is Better", I have some good news for you. Post your requirements for dirty filters (oil, transmission, air, home air, and water purifiers). We will be glad to supply you with our used filters for the cost of shipping only (oh yes, you will have to sign a disclaimer also... ;)
  • sdc2sdc2 Member Posts: 780
    OK, I'll try one last time. A dirty filter is better ONLY in terms of EFFICIENCY OF FILTRATION. Filter efficiency is defined as the percentage of particles of a certain size that pass through the filter. For example, a HEPA filter, as you see in some vacuums and other air filtration systems, is defined as trapping 99.97% of all particles 0.3 microns or larger. A dirty, or clogged, filter will allow fewer and smaller particles through, and is therefore MORE EFFICIENT.

    But efficiency is only part of the story. As I have said several times, a dirty filter is WORSE at allowing sufficient airflow to the engine. That is why we change air filters.

    I am NOT saying a dirty air filter is better for your engine. It is not. Modern, computer-controlled engines need good airflow to run at peak performance, and that is provided by a clean air filter.
  • ccotenjccotenj Member Posts: 610
    ummm... good theory... but not really correct... you can see this visually for yourself sometime if you (or a friend) has a aquarium and a diatom filter... as the filter gets dirtier, it pulls less thru, resulting in less flow, resulting in less particles coming in... yea, technically it traps smaller particles, but if it's not pulling any into itself, it's not trapping anything.

    if you could maintain the consistent flow while the filter is dirty, then your theory would be correct.

    efficiency of a filter is not just it's "trapping power" (so to speak). it's the combination of the ability to trap particles and maintain flow. both of these factor into the efficiency equation.

    -Chris
  • steve82steve82 Member Posts: 4
    When is the "right" time to pull the dipstick and check your oil level? Should it be checked when the engine is cold or after it's at normal operating temperature? Does it even make a difference?
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    A proper check is done at normal engine temperature with the engine off on level ground. Allow about a minute or two for the oil to drain into the pan after turning off the engine. You can check when the engine is cold, but it won't be accurate. A good time to check oil is when you are filling up the gas tank.
  • sdc2sdc2 Member Posts: 780
    You are being confused by the semantics of my statement. It is not a theory; "efficiency" is a technical term IN THE FILTRATION INDUSTRY that does indeed simply describe the "trapping power", regardless of air flow. I do this for a living, and know of what I speak.

    "Efficiency" is only one part of the picture. I think you do understand that anytime you evaluate the quality of a filter, you have to look at BOTH the "efficiency" of filtration AND the airflow allowed, because there is an inverse relationship between them. In other words, more particles stopped equals less airflow.

    Sorry for any confusion over terminology.
  • techtech Member Posts: 34
    a number of years ago there was an article in one of the tech mags (popular science or mechanics) comparing amsoil (i believe to be a polyol ester based oil as is red line)anyway they took 10 taxi's in nyc 5 were run with synthetic amsoil for 70k miles with no changes. 5 were run with dino oil for 70k miles with oil/filter changes every 3k
    miles. they then proceeded to break down these engines and collect data. i don't recall all the tests performed but some were falex, hight temp viscosity , lubricity as well as chemical analysis of the oil in each vehicle. well what convinced me to switch to synthetic oil was the chemical analysis more than anything. the average % of bearing material found in the oil (metal particles) was 6x greater in the engines using dino oil and changed regularly. this is what convinced me that for no other reason other than the wear factor.
    that was about 15 years ago and i am approaching 300+k miles on my van with never an engine related problem. i will continue to drive the vehicle forever . i found it was still cheaper to replace parts than buy new when the motor was still like new. that is my experience.
  • fortunate2001fortunate2001 Member Posts: 21
    I see a new product at Pep Boys- Petromoly oil additive. It seems Moly has found a way to keep those particles suspended indefinately... I read an EPA study that showed improvement in gas mileage and emissions. Anyone tried it?
  • ccotenjccotenj Member Posts: 610
    said it before, i'll say it again... if ANY of these additives worked the magic their manufacturers claim, the major oil companies would put it in their add pack and advertise the heck out of it.
    -Chris
  • arjay1arjay1 Member Posts: 172
    Moly is actually an additive in some manufacturers oils. It is supposed to be very slippery and attach to the metal surfaces.
    However, I would not add some miracle oil additive that has it. The major oils are good and very carefully configured. Your oil may already have Moly added anyway. Don't waste your money!
  • fortunate2001fortunate2001 Member Posts: 21
    I just read that Moly is used to coat some parts in the Infinity engine. Very interesting.
  • bkteachbkteach Member Posts: 8
    Say, I have a whopping 200 miles on my new Dakota 4x4. I'm looking for advice on what to use for the oil and filter and at what mileage should I use it?
    Any advice would be appreciated.
    Regards,
    Brad.
  • bkteachbkteach Member Posts: 8
    I forgot to mention that I live in Wisconsin. The temp. can get down there during these next couple of months. (-20F at the lowest)
    Thanks
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    Brad,
    If your looking for a recommendation I'd say a good Purolator and Mobil 1 on factory schedule. I'd also recommend you read all of the previous posts about oil, additives, and filters and make a choice based on what you think might be best for your situation. Answers to questions like how long you want the truck to last, type engine, interest in maintenance, costs, availability, etc... will give you a basis for what you do. Good luck.
  • guitarzanguitarzan Member Posts: 873
    I use 5w-30 Mobil 1 synthetic. I would not recommend 0w-30 to others, only because manufacturers don't explicitly recommend it. I added one quart of it at my last oil change. I fear filling up with it, and then watching the temperature go to 60 one day. Not so sure that would be good for the car.

    Guitarzan
    Community Leader/Vans Conference
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    #60 and #61
    I agree that an accurate oil level check can be made with a fully warmed engine, vehicle parked on level ground, and after waiting 2 or 3 minutes. A check made before starting a cold engine will also be OK. Avoid, however, checking the oil level following brief operation of a cold engine. At such a time much of the cold (high-viscosity) oil is clinging to the engine component surfaces and the dipstick will falsely indicate a need to add oil.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    My Chevy manual says consider synthetics or 0-30 if temps routinely below 0.
  • steve82steve82 Member Posts: 4
    Thanks for clarifying the proper procedure for checking your oil level. I thought for sure I was doing something wrong because of the low reading I was getting for my 'lude. My last oil change was in late october. I added a quart a few weeks ago but it was still down about 1 quart when I went in for an oil change today. That means the car must have burned almost 2 quarts within 2800 miles! I will have my dealer look at it ASAP but I only have about 1600 miles left under the factory warranty and I just bought the car last september.

    Does anyone know if the excess oil burning could be caused by switching brands and/or kind of oil?
  • donald41donald41 Member Posts: 5
    I have been using synthetic oil for the past 11 years. My vehicles are 99 Astro, 77, 74 chevy. I use 5w- 30 100% synthetic. The 77 (128k) and 74 (84k) use a 10w-40 semi-synthetic. My observations are :
    I have seen a decrease in oil consumption with 77 and 74 chevy at least 50% less. The 99 Astro does not use any oil as of this posting. Having used the oil for a while I have noticed the pcv valve and spark plugs life expectancy have increased dramatically(77 and 74 chevy). I check the spark plugs yearly by cleaning and regapping and then reinstalling (77 and 74 chevy). The pcv valve is done at the same time. I spray it down with carb cleaner.I have also seen an increase in throttle response. They also start easier when it is cold. Plus a 1-2 mpg increase in gas mileage mixed between highway and city driving. Oil changes at 6-8 k. Your mileage may vary with the type of driving. I do have some small oil leaks on the 2 older cars but do not contribute to any major oil consumption. I have owned these cars for 9 years 74 and 6 years 77. All 3 are still reliable and are daily drivers. I believe synthetic oil has increased the serviceable life of these vehicles.
    THe extra expense is worth it for the cost of synthetic over dino oil.
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    Headed to Montana for a week long snowmobile trip.

    Silverado will cold soak that entire week.

    Just put M1 0W-30 in. Will report in two weeks when I get back.
  • bnormannbnormann Member Posts: 335
    Folks,

    We have two topic on motor oil running concurrently, This one and one on synthetic oil. Would you all like to see these two topics combined OR separate topic for dino oil and synthetic. I think there are enough differences in peoples question re. synthetics oils only , so that topic has merit as a standalone; for me anyways.

    let me know.

    your new host, Bruce
  • trip3trip3 Member Posts: 9
    I am a "lurker" who rarely posts to any of the many topics that I read. But I have really learned a lot on every page. My suggestion would be to combine the two topics. They are both on the subject of engine lubrication. It would give us chance to have on-going direct comparison of opinion regarding those two different types of lubrication. I would rather have a longer scroll down through posts than have to update so many bookmarks. Each one helps. Thanks for asking us.
  • mxylplik2mxylplik2 Member Posts: 19
    I went in for a Mobil 1 syn oil change and the mechanic for some reason put in 10w30 instead of the 5w30 as recommended on the oil filler cap. Looked at the Toyota Camry (i.e., XLE V6) manual and indicated that 5w30 is preferred but included a chart with 10w30 but that it shouldn't be used in very cold weather. Well living in New York, the weather currently is around mid 30s and I believe syn inherently has excellent low temp flow abilities. I called Toyota and the representative (I believe she is wrong) indicated that I may have warranty issues for not using 5w30 (especially because Toyota dealer doesn't service the car).

    1. Should I eat the $42 oil change and go to another mechanic for the proper oil? I'm more inclined to do this as I wasn't able to provide them with a filter to install (they used a generic filter).

    My personal strategy for oil changes will be as follows:

    - Change with syn every 4,000 - 4,250 miles;
    - Since most mechanics use a generic filer, provide filter for them to install (such as Purolator Premium Plus, Mobil 1 or AC Delco Duraguard Gold); and
    - Alternate filter brands provided so that I KNOW they changed the filter.

    Any thoughts or feedback would be much appreciated. Thanks.

    Ed
  • mazda323mazda323 Member Posts: 66
    I don't think that this will harm your car's engine. 10w30 oil should be ok, unless it gets really cold in NY. What's the temperature range specified for 10w30 oil in your owner's manual? If the low temp of the range is colder then the actual temperature, you should be fine.
    When you go to a quick lube or a general mechanic for an oil change, you should specify that you want 5w30 oil. They don't always have the time to look through your owner's manual and check the viscosity recommendation.
    I wouldn't worry about a generic filter. Although they won't offer the best possible filtration, they won't harm your car. Anyhow, Toyota filters are crap, so don't let the service rep intimidate you because you didn't get your last service at Toyota.
    My final advice is to keep the oil in the car until it's due, unless NY experiences a cold snap with very low temperatures.
  • rs_pettyrs_petty Member Posts: 423
    agree w/you on the oil, but why do you feel so strongly on the Toyota filter? From what I've read they filter as well as average aftermarket.
  • mazda323mazda323 Member Posts: 66
    Exactly. And it costs twice the price of a regular aftermarket filter!!! A Purolator PureOne is cheaper then a Toyota filter for my car. Maybe 'crap' was a little strong. I should say 'are the same as a cheap aftermarket filter, but at twice the price'.
  • fcngfcng Member Posts: 16
    Castrol Syntec is really not 100% syn oil. Off the top of my head, PAO stands for PolyAlphaOlefin, and PAOs are a component of the base stocks that Mobil (and some others) use in their synthetic oils. PAOs are built up from smaller molecules, in controlled chemical reactions. The smaller molecular starting blocks can be obtained in extremely pure form, and the reactions that build the PAOs so well controlled, that the result in a very uniform PAO with just the properties expected. This is in comparison with conventional oils which are extracted from crude oil, but are not significantly chemically altered in any controlled way.
    Castrol (and Shell, and others, and Mobil in overseas markets) has stoped using expensive PAOs in Syntec, and now uses less expensive hydroisomerized base stocks. These base stocks are made from conventional oil that has been chemically altered through Shell's hyrdoisomerization process. They are a chemically altered form of natural petroleum distillates, and they do have properties superior to conventional oil, but they are not built up from smaller molecules, which is why Mobil objects to Castol's calling them synthetic.
  • edwardh1edwardh1 Member Posts: 88
    some of the quick lube places put in 10 30 because they keep that in bulk, the 5 30 they keep in quarts which costs them more and they charge u more for 5 30.

    Stay away from quick lubes, untrained, rushed, unsupervised.
  • jhuang76jhuang76 Member Posts: 9
    Well, I've noticed that this subject has stopped but I just need to thank SDC2. You have been correct in your statements (however, you just need to be careful on your definition of efficiency - but that's just technicality). Hopefully, people have learned something, but ... well the average Joe only cares that it works, not how it works!
  • butch11butch11 Member Posts: 153
    Letting these people even touch your vehicle is risky. With today's labor market you end up with people who can do major damage to your vehicle. Heard of one guy with a bimmer who found they had stuck a cork in the drain plug because they stripped the threads. Among other tricks is cross threading the filter-leaking all oil out and a toasted engine. An associate of mine had to replace a tranny because a quick oil change place did not use the correct ATF.
  • nosirrahgnosirrahg Member Posts: 872
    I'll be picking up my new Chevy Impala with the 3.8 liter V-6 in a few weeks. Since I plan to still be driving this car 15 years from now, I want to break it in right, and use the best oil/filter throughout it's lifespan.

    From the limited info I've read, it seems the thing to do is break a car in with dino oil (with a change @ 1000 miles), then switch @ the 3000 mile mark to synthetic; changing every 4000-4500 miles after that. However, in a now-closed topic titled "GM 3800 oil leaks" (or something similar), it was mentioned that there was a problem with synthetics not reacting properly with the gaskets, and it was suggested NOT to run synthetics in this engine (or any GM product, for that matter).

    Having put 116,000 miles on my '89 Celica with no problems using dino oil (and my brother has 340,000+ on his '84 Toyota pickup with dino oil as well), I don't have a problem sticking with it in the new car if it means no leaks. I think the key is simply changing oil regularly. However, I'd be willing to pay extra for synthetics if I knew it wouldn't lead to leaks down the road.

    Thoughts?
  • markbuckmarkbuck Member Posts: 1,021
    leaks with modern synthetics.
  • shekharpatelshekharpatel Member Posts: 27
    Moved from Ohio, where 5W-30 was the RULE. The SC mechanic (very competant) suggested I should use 20W-50 (Corn syrup consistancy!), naturally I was hesitant but after 6 oil changes each in my 1990 Taurus and 1994 Altima I am happy to report better engine performance (higher torque at lower RPM?). The cars seem to love the 20W-50 grade.
  • edwardh1edwardh1 Member Posts: 88
    all 4 new GM cars I owned leaked oil. Not always a lot, but they leaked.

    All 4 Japanese cars have never leaked.
  • jtedjted Member Posts: 17
    What is Dino Oil?
  • bnormannbnormann Member Posts: 335
    ...is short for Dinosaur.

    The scoop is that OIL deposits (in the earth) are from decayed animals (dinosaurs) and Natural Gas deposits (in the earth) are from decayed plant matter.

    Does anyone remember the name of the gas company that used to have a green dinosaur as their logo? I think they were bought-out / changed-name to ARCO in the mid 70s.

    Was it "Sinclair"?

    your host, Bruce
  • nosirrahgnosirrahg Member Posts: 872
    You're right about Sinclair, and if I'm not mistaken, there are a few still in operation near here (central Arkansas) which still have the sign up with the green dinosaur.
  • butch11butch11 Member Posts: 153
    Yeah it was Sinclair-had several green plastic dino's when I was a kid. ALso note-scientific types finally figured out there were never ever any dinos down at the depths which oil is typically found. Now they think it is a process that occurs when methane and maybe other stuff including some anerobic biological activity (lots of living stuff down deep) reacts to make crude aka dino oil. Researchers also know there are vast stores of methane at depths over 30K-like hundreds of years worth at current usage levels-only problem is all the carbon it puts in the air.
  • bnormannbnormann Member Posts: 335
    Thanks for the clarification on dead dinos. {8^D

    Bruce
  • drandodrando Member Posts: 12
    Just wanted to say I had a "76" Datsun 280-Z in
    NW Florida That I ran for 189000 miles with no
    oil related problems.Changed every 3K and used
    Castrol GTX 20W-50 .It looked thick enough but seems the motor had no problem with it. I don't think I'd try it now but worked good back then.
    Cool car, wish they made them now....very easy
    to get to everything...That thick oil probably never actually cooled off.........see y'all
    drando (I have a 99 s-10 Chev ZR2 now 10W-30 Castrol GTX)
    nowadays..........)
  • I own a 99 ES300. Lexus wants service done every 5K or 7.5K. I put only 10K a year on the car. Is the length of time between changes going to be a problem in the long run. I know a lot of people now go 5K on oil, but I don't know if the length of time will also reduce the oils lubricating qualities. Any comments appreciated. Thanks in advance.
  • nosirrahgnosirrahg Member Posts: 872
    Here's something I've always wondered: If we're supposed to change oil based on mileage OR time (i.e. 3,000 miles or three months); if you changed the oil 3 months ago, but have only driven say 1000 miles for some reason, why would the oil suddenly be considered "bad"? And if that's the case, should I avoid buying oil in bulk, since it might sit around too long to be considered "good" anymore? Why does oil which ages in an engine need to be replaced, when oil that sits on the shelf is considered fine?
  • spokanespokane Member Posts: 514
    Although conventional motor oils will exhibit a very small amount of separation over a period of months, I would not be concerned about shelf life.

    The "3-month or 3000-miles" adage is a pretty good guideline for most drivers. This rule of thumb presumes that a low-miles-per-year car is accumulating miles slowly because most trips are short. Short trips imply frequent stops before the engine has fully warmed and thus excessive condensation of combustion products in the crankcase. Such an engine should have the oil changed at lower mileage intervals -- thus the "3-Month" guideline.

    However, consider the example of a utility vehicle or RV that is driven infrequently for a total of 2000 miles per year but nearly every trip is 15+ miles. For this vehicle, I would be quite comfortable with an oil & filter change at 12-month intervals because the hot engine allows little condensation of combustion products in the crankcase.
  • mazda323mazda323 Member Posts: 66
    I would still change the oil at least 3 or 4 times a year, even with so little annual mileage. Read post #100 by Spokane: he explains perfectly why oil changes are important even in low-mileage cars. Even when the car is not running, the additives in the oil are still working to prevent rusting and disperse moisture.
    Why take any changes with your car? The added cost of one or two more oil changes a year is well worth it, especialy if you plan on keeping the car for the long run.
  • shekharpatelshekharpatel Member Posts: 27
    There are about 60 million cars in USA alone. If you perform a single additional oilchange in these vehicles it will amount to extra 75 million gallons of petroleum waste generated not to mention 900 million dollars in extra expenditure (estimating $15 dollars/oil change). This is reckless behavior.
    Today many families have multiple vehicles and some of them see sporadic use. Thus the shelf life of engine oil eitner in container or in the crank-case assumes vital importance. I do not expect the Oil companies to disclose researched facts and recommendations based on these facts that would hurt their bottom line.
    More research is immidiately needed on this issue if we are to leave this planet without further damaging it.
  • mazda323mazda323 Member Posts: 66
    It's your car so you do what you feel is best, be it for you car, the environment, OPEC or for the economy. How much more fuel does your 2000 Honda Odyssey utilize compared to my 1998 Corolla in a year? Lets see.
    Odyssey: 2228 liters/year (~586 gallons/year)
    Corolla: 1369 liters/year (~360 gallons/year)
    (Look here for stats: http://autosmart.nrcan.gc.ca/pubs/fcg3_e.cfm9)

    Should I consider you reckless when you are driving your van instead of one of your cars ???(unless you are actually transporting 6 or 7 passengers) Imagine how much more pollution it's dumping in our atmosphere compared to my Corolla!!!

    Some people feel it is important to give their vehicles the best protection they can (within reasonable limits). That was the message I intended to pass along in my previous post. An extra 4 quarts of oil per year is not going to render our planet uninhabitable after that 4 quarts of oil is properly sent for recycling. I understand your point of view but I don't agree with it being called 'reckless'.
  • edwardh1edwardh1 Member Posts: 88
    They used to change oil every 1000 miles. Now Jiffy Lube based on marketing tells you to change at 3000 and everyone buys it. Even tho the mfg and even consumers reports says 7500 miles is fine. I do it at 5k.

    The impact on the environment is a concern, plus you (by changing at 3k) are using up my grandchildren's oil based on greed by Jiffy lube and the others.
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Everyone can argue about the correct oil change interval but the simple fact is that you are simply guessing unless you utilize an oil analysis. Several friends with have done so on their (frequently tracked)BMWs and found that the synthetic oil was fine for additional service at 8-10K miles. Lacking that, a good rule of thumb-for synthetic oil, anyway- is to simply change the oil at the longest mileage/time interval recommended by the carmaker. Thus, my 1993 Pathfinder gets annual changes of Mobil 1 since it now only sees @6500 miles per year. At 114,000 miles it uses no oil between changes and the engine is as clean as a pin under the cam covers.
  • SPYDER98SPYDER98 Member Posts: 239
    Is it safe to say, a good way to judge when to change your oil is by looking at it. Granted, most cars after 3000 miles, still have clean "looking" oil. This of course does not mean that the oil has not lost any of it's efficiency. I'm sure it has.

    Even after 1500 miles in my turbo eclipse, synthetic oil still turns just as dark as conventional. Should I not worry when I'm over 3000 miles since my last oil change and the color of the oil is black? Is the oil still efficient?
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