I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

uplanderguy · March 29

I remember that one. “Is that your orthopedic back pillow?”, lol.

That gold GTO was in my fb feed for some reason—from a GTO page. Eight or ten comments from others about the car when I posted there, what I did here. Not a single spark of recognition there. 🙄

andre1969 · March 29

My uncle (the one who recently died and left me the Colorado and Sienna) had a gold '67 GTO hardtop back in the 70's. He was living down somewhere in Appalachian Virginia at the time though, and I don't remember it. I remember him talking about it, and saying he paid $500 for it, and sold it for $500.

He also told me a story about how once he came speeding through some little podunk town and got the police after him, but was able to evade him. But then, he came back home through the same town, and they nabbed him!

fintail · March 29

A Plymouth Acclaim drove by my house (my driver's ed car 33 years ago), then I came in, turned on YouTube, and this funny thing was in my feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCLrbI5d5tw

ab348 · March 29

Adam of the Rare Classic Cars and Automotive History channel on YT posted a video about the Chrysler K-car today. It was an odd video though. He spent most of it pointing out all the design flaws he saw in it - too boxy, too square, too many straight lines, etc etc. To me he showed nearly complete lack of recognition of the times it was designed in, the dire financial state of Chrysler at that time, and the reality that they just needed a solid single up the middle and not a home run just to stay alive. He compounded the error by comparing it to the aero Fords of the mid-80s which came along in a different time. Just really strange.

explorerx4 · March 29

@ab348,
Thanks for that review. I was going to watch that video but I'm going to skip it.
Don't want to give him a 'view' for that.

uplanderguy · March 29

I used to get K-cars for rentals. No complaints about how they drove, but I did always think they were styled for septegenarians. At the time, I'd have chosen a GM X-car if given the choice by the agent. Not that a rental is the end-all, be-all, but for all the X's I drove as rentals over the years, I don't recall any giving me any problems or being obnoxious to drive.

The only car to leave me stranded was a Fairmont. The worst-maintained car I rented was an otherwise beautiful '80 Grand Prix. Dome light, and courtesy light on driver's floor were burned out; radio would cut out when you hit a bump, and by the end of the week I noticed ticking (V6). I added 3 qts. of oil. When I turned it in and mentioned those things (admittedly, I was in my early 20's), the gal at the counter, not much older, completely blew me off.

uplanderguy · March 29

fin, wife says today they visited a tulip and daffodil farm in Mount Vernon, and ate and shopped in a little town called Edison, birthplace of Edward R. Murrow. I'm guessing those two things would not be on a guy's radar out there!

fintail · March 29

uplanderguy said:
fin, wife says today they visited a tulip and daffodil farm in Mount Vernon, and ate and shopped in a little town called Edison, birthplace of Edward R. Murrow. I'm guessing those two things would not be on a guy's radar out there!

I know where Edison is, but I don't think I've ever stopped there. I used to live up in that area as I went to school in Bellingham (an area with plenty of of obscure cars). Pretty area, I've done the tulip thing with visiting friends, it's a huge tourist draw for the Skagit Valley. Looks like she might have got lucky with the weather this weekend.

If one likes flowers, the tulips there are pretty impressive:

andre1969 · March 30

Some Ford stylists jumped ship to Chrysler in the late 70's, some of them before Iacocca got fired. And Ford stylists liked those sharp, crisp lines. They brought that theming with them to Chrysler. The first examples of this, I guess, would be the '79 R-bodies. The '78 Horizon/Omni were also pretty angular, but that was probably mostly due to the Europeans. And the styling was probably locked up by the time the Ford stylists had any influence.

In 1980, the Mirada/Cordoba had proportioning awfully similar to a '77-79 LTD-II. I had actually never noticed it before, but I remember someone on Edmund's pointing it out years ago when I mentioned wanting one...and since then I could never un-see it! The LeBaron/Diplomat also got more squared off and formaled-up. And I always thought the 1980 Volare/Aspen restyle looked an awful lot like a Fairmont.

As for a 1981 Aries or Reliant, I think it's exactly what you'd get if you tried to take a Fairmont, chop about 20 inches off of its overall length, 5 inches off of the wheelbase, yet still keep it about as roomy as before. And, it actually was passable as a 6 passenger car, something that many still wanted at the time. I always thought it was a shame that GM didn't offer a full bench seat on the X-cars, but they probably limited them to 5 passenger seating, so they wouldn't overlap with the midsized cars so much...especially once the A-body Celebrity and such came out.

It's been ages since I've been in either, but I seem to recall GM's X-cars seemed roomier up front, like the seat went further back, but it was also a bit lower to the floor. In contrast, the K-car seat was closer to the cowl, but sat up a bit higher. I think the K-cars had a bit more legroom in the back. And the K-cars felt like they had more shoulder room than the X, but IIRC they're about the same, maybe 55.5-56.0 inches. Maybe the K-car had thinner armrests, or was more slab-sided, and that gave the illusion of more room?

The K-car's style did start looking pretty dated after a few years, but I think it was okay for 1981. And the 1985 facelift wasn't bad. The one K-car variant I thought was really attractive, was the 1985 Lancer/LeBaron GTS. I remember one car test review of the era calling them "What the Tempo/Topaz Should Have Been!"

I liked the Spirit/Acclaim, too.

uplanderguy · March 30

I remember early Citations not having the little carved-out cubby hole in the front bench seat to discourage putting a third person there, but that changed soon after.

My friend was a zone service rep for Chrysler in WV in the mid'80's. I remember liking his LeBaron GTS as well, even with the window-on-a-window look on the side rear that I typically don't care for. In black, with the wheels he called 'swiss cheese', they were nice-looking cars.

andre1969 · March 30

Did the X-cars ever offer 3 across seating up front? The only solid seat I remember was the one with the cubby hole in the center, although I think some of the nicer trim levels had an armrest that would fold down. And then a lot of them had bucket seats.

uplanderguy · March 30

I'm pretty sure, accent on 'pretty', that the earliest Citations I saw new at our hometown dealer had high-back bench seats without the cubby hole. That didn't seem to last long in my memory. I remember thinking at the time that the cubby hole was cheesy and designed to limit three-across seating in a pinch.

uplanderguy · March 30

Looked at the brochure online for the '80. Doesn't show the cubby hole.

Weird that the four-door had a back section connecting the high-back portions on the outside, but the coupes didn't have that little connecting section in the back. (I realize of course that in two-doors, they're a split-back to fold forward).

I've said this before, but I like the non-hatchback coupe Citation, but as is often the case, apparently nobody else did, LOL.

https://oldcarbrochures.org/United States/Chevrolet/1980-Chevrolet/1980-Chevrolet-Citation-Brochure/slides/1980_Chevrolet_Citation-14-15.html

andre1969 · March 30

I looked up some brochures online, but the one of the Citation's seat was a 2-page spread so the image was split in the middle. But in the 1980 Omega brochure, I found this...

So yep, early on at least, there was a full-width bench. Just that it only had two seatbelts up front, just with the inboard latches moved to the center of the seat.

I'm surprised, actually, that the feds would let them build something like that. Even though it only had two seatbelts, to suggest only two occupants, the capability was there, to easily squeeze a third person.

Oh, and for shoulder room, the Citation brochure mentioned something like 56.2" for front and rear. For the K-car, my 1985 Consumer Guide, which tested a Reliant, had 55.5" up front and 55.9" in the back, so the X-cars were slightly wider.

uplanderguy · March 30

That pic reminds me that the Omega dash had a bit of the '63-64 Valiant thing goin' on.

thebean · March 30

Who remembers this Citation commercial?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rnx4bWXbMMw&pp=ygUZY2hldnkgY2l0YXRpb24gY29tbWVyY2lhbA%3D%3D

andre1969 · March 30

I don't remember that specific commercial, but I do remember that "Chevy Ci-TAAAAAAAA-Tion!" jingle.

uplanderguy · March 30

I echo what andre says!

The Celebrity et al were the same cars underneath, right down to wheelbase, but they sure disguised it well. I actually give the stylists credit for differentiating the X-cars among the divisions far-better than the A-cars.

Before I bought my '85 Celebrity Eurosport, I seriously considered an '85 Citation II X-11. It was a better buy upfront and really the same car other than looks (LOL), but back then I traded every three years or so and the announcement of discontinuation of the Citation and Skylark had already been made. I thought I'd take a bath at trade-in time. In later years I worried far-less about stuff like that.

ab348 · March 30

That front seat configuration is odd, with just 2 seatbelts. I wonder how many unbelted little kids rode in the middle up front back then.

uplanderguy · March 30

I bet a lot.

fintail · March 30

Spotted a maybe 71 Torino fastback and similar year GM pickup on the road today.

uplanderguy · March 31

A small thing I just noticed in the Citation’s optional interior—that little pocket at the bottom of the rear seat back. Probably most used for crayons and candy wrappers.

ab348 · March 31

I never knew about that rear seat pouch. Seems an odd thing, and from what I can see in the brochures it was gone for 1981 and later models.

The thing that annoyed me about early Citation seats is that on 2-door models, the front seat had slots cut into the rear edge of the bottom cushion to accommodate the movement of the backrest hinges. I had never seen that on other cars and thought they looked cheesy on these. They seemed to go away in subsequent years.

uplanderguy · March 31

The base Citation interior was almost agrarian—or is it industrial? Definitely made to an entry-level price point.

I always like storage places built into the instrument panel, like the center cubby hole on Vega GT’s and Cosworth, and map pockets on door panels. I liked the triangular map pockets high on the doors on early Colonnade Monte Carlos, but eventually those went away.

stickguy · March 31

You should have seen a base model 1st year Omni.

fintail · March 31

A couple of rare ones spotted today - first gen A8 SWB that appeared to be very clean, older driver - grandpa's baby. Also a Renault Alliance/GTA convertible, IIRC @sda had one back in the day, also appeared to be excellent.

ab348 · April 1

A video that @fintail will likely enjoy - Iain Tyrrell of Tyrrell's Classic Cars in the U.K. with a M-B W111 280SE 3.5 coupe, providing some of its history tracing back to the Ponton and Fintail designs:

https://youtu.be/6FBy3pDeQoI?si=-abmD_ODMjAiAhEr

ab348 · April 1

fintail said:
A Plymouth Acclaim drove by my house (my driver's ed car 33 years ago), then I came in, turned on YouTube, and this funny thing was in my feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCLrbI5d5tw

I drove all four of those cars at the time. The three domestics were all rentals so likely in base spec, while I drove an Accord DX on a long test drive when I thought I wanted to buy one. I loved the Accord's driving experience as it seemed bright and airy with lots of glass and felt nimble. The dealer experience at the time was horrific though and they acted liked they didn't want to sell it given huge demand, wait lists, and ADMs. I was so turned off I swore off Honda (or at least the local dealer) forever.

As for the other three, I didn't like the Tempo at all. It felt like a rental car and the wheezy 4-banger did it no favors. The Corsica was better, but the engine (I assume the 4-cylinder) felt overmatched and the interior, while also somewhat airy, was pure GM plastic of the era. The Spirit just felt better than both of the domestics, not at all like the K-car it was based on. It seemed solid and was quite comfortable. I suspect neither it nor the Chevy would have been as good an ownership experience as the Honda (though that generation later became known for rust issues in this climate) but if money was a factor the Dodge would have been my choice.

uplanderguy · April 1

Whenever I hear "Spirit" or "Acclaim" nowadays, this is what I think of:

Marie Barone backing the car into Raymond's house.

There were episodes mentioning the parents' old Valiant, so the Barones must've been Mopar people!

This show isn't witty like 'Seinfeld' or 'Modern Family', but I think anyone with in-laws can relate. I'm surprised the idea wasn't used earlier, about parents across the street and no boundaries.

I always say that I can't stand the Debra character, as she's so b*tchy, and isn't happy unless everybody else is miserable. My wife and grown daughter say that the Raymond character is the worst and no wonder Debra is like that, LOL.

I feel like I'd have had to have had an Acclaim or Spirit as a rental, but I can't remember one.

andre1969 · April 1

Here's the Valiant...

The parents still had it, but wanted to sell it. Ray bought it, because he had fond memories of it, as he'd lost his virginity in it when he was a teenager. When Debra found out, she wasn't amused. It was only in one episode, in the first season.

There was also one episode where they showed closeups of what I'm thinking was an H-body LeSabre or Delta 88. It was mostly closeups of the interior, though the windshield, but you got just enough view of the roof pillars and such. And it was sort of a light greenish blue that I remember seeing pop up on those cars every once in awhile.

uplanderguy · April 1

I remember that episode, but didn't remember such a clear shot of the car.

In other episodes, Ray talked about how fussy Frank was about anyone else driving his car.

fintail · April 1

ab348 said:
A video that @fintail will likely enjoy - Iain Tyrrell of Tyrrell's Classic Cars in the U.K. with a M-B W111 280SE 3.5 coupe, providing some of its history tracing back to the Ponton and Fintail designs:

Nicely done, I will have to watch the entire video. That car is top of the line in desirability for the coupes. And yes, they are technically fintails in a way, that car is a W111 and my car is a W111 (but the powertrains are completely different).

fintail · April 1

ab348 said:

fintail said:
A Plymouth Acclaim drove by my house (my driver's ed car 33 years ago), then I came in, turned on YouTube, and this funny thing was in my feed

I drove all four of those cars at the time. The three domestics were all rentals so likely in base spec, while I drove an Accord DX on a long test drive when I thought I wanted to buy one. I loved the Accord's driving experience as it seemed bright and airy with lots of glass and felt nimble. The dealer experience at the time was horrific though and they acted liked they didn't want to sell it given huge demand, wait lists, and ADMs. I was so turned off I swore off Honda (or at least the local dealer) forever.

As for the other three, I didn't like the Tempo at all. It felt like a rental car and the wheezy 4-banger did it no favors. The Corsica was better, but the engine (I assume the 4-cylinder) felt overmatched and the interior, while also somewhat airy, was pure GM plastic of the era. The Spirit just felt better than both of the domestics, not at all like the K-car it was based on. It seemed solid and was quite comfortable. I suspect neither it nor the Chevy would have been as good an ownership experience as the Honda (though that generation later became known for rust issues in this climate) but if money was a factor the Dodge would have been my choice.

I thought it was funny they had the Tempo and Accord there, maybe something to do with size or interior space. I've always seen the Tempo as a notch lower than the Mopars or Corsica, and the Accord a rung or two up from all three. That generation was peak Accord IMO, and of the lot probably the most likely to still be on the road, unless neglect broke a timing belt or rust eventually got to it. Of the domestics, all things being equal, the Mopar does seem appealing as they might be sturdy and larger, and had the V6 and RT variants. Tempo would eventually get a V6 (Vulcan) for a brief moment, I imagine the torque steer was something.

I remember sometime around 1995 my mom had a rental Corsica, it was moderately loaded (V6, power everything), seemed fairly nice. I recall it had amusing throttle tip-in, it would fly off the line with minimal pressure applied.

uplanderguy · April 2

Fly off the line--I think that was a GM thing then. I remember thinking my parents' new '84 Monte Carlo 305 4-barrel felt like an absolute hot rod in that way....but I owned a V6 and my parents were coming off of a V6 Monte too. My Dad, in his mid-fifties then, said, "Boy, that's a light touch".

Years later, when I drove my friend's M-B (don't ask me the model, LOL), I remember thinking I really had to push on the gas pedal to go. It wasn't the engine, it was the pedal.

ab348 · April 2

Re. the action of M-B throttle pedals - Tyrrell mentions that in the video I linked above. He called it a "logarithmic linkage" where when pressing the throttle initially, depressing the pedal to 30% of its range of motion only opened the throttle about 20%. I guess they wanted proper decorum in the use of their vehicles.

andre1969 · April 2

Yesterday, walking up to the street to get the mail, a '56-57 Corvette drove past. Red with white contrast, top up. Considering I live a bit off the beaten path, I'd imagine it must be someone somewhat local. At least, living within a couple miles of me.

As for light pedal pressure, my Mom's '86 Monte Carlo was like that. I actually had no complaints at all about that car's performance. It seemed like the perfect blend of performance and fuel economy.

I've always wanted to drive a Monte Carlo with the 4.3 V6, or even a Caprice/Impala with one. I have a book that has a bunch of road test compilations of the Caprice over the years, and one of them was a back-to-back comparison of two '85's, one with the 4.3 and one with the 305. Both had the 4-speed overdrive automatic. In 0-60, they were surprisingly close: 10.80 for the 4.3 and 10.62 for the 305. And in 0-30 and 0-40 springs, the V6 was slightly quicker. The 4.3 got its peak hp and torque at a lower rpm than the 305, and at most speeds under 60, was putting out about the same hp and torque. Once you got above 60, the 305 did better, but the 4.3 still was pretty good.

I imagine a lot of that was thanks to the 4-speed automatic, though. Consumer Guide tested a Caprice with the 4.3 and 3-speed automatic. They gave it a rating of 3/5 for acceleration, but did not list a 0-60 time. In contrast, all the similar-sized V8 cars (LeSabre and Delta 88 307, Parisienne 305, Crown Vic/Grand Marquis 302) were rated a 4/5 for acceleration. The only 0-60 times they quoted were 12.0 for the Delta 88, and 10.5 for the Crown Vic. The Crown Vic also had traction lock and a 3.55:1 axle.

andre1969 · April 2

Lemko just reminded me, over on facebook. Happy Walter P. Chrysler Day!

It's also my birthday, which sometimes makes me wonder if that's one reason I've tended to have good luck with Chrysler products. Oh, and I'm also planning to announce my retirement at work today. I figured that would be a nice birthday gift to myself. Sort of a birthday, Christmas, and Independence Day all rolled into one!

kyfdx · April 2

@andre1969 Congrats on the retirement!

andre1969 · April 2

Thanks, KY! I'm planning on announcing it during an online meeting that starts at 11 am, so I've got about 15 minutes. I'll admit, I'm jittery, but in a good way. I was getting nervous and second-guessing myself as this date got closer, but now that it's here, I'm feeling more like a little kid going into an amusement park for the first time!

kyfdx · April 2

andre1969 said:
Thanks, KY! I'm planning on announcing it during an online meeting that starts at 11 am, so I've got about 15 minutes. I'll admit, I'm jittery, but in a good way. I was getting nervous and second-guessing myself as this date got closer, but now that it's here, I'm feeling more like a little kid going into an amusement park for the first time!

I have nothing bad to say about it.. and, I've been retired for 8.5 years..

explorerx4 · April 2

Congrats Andre... Independence Day, good one - never looked at it that way before.

uplanderguy · April 2

Congrats, andre. I don't miss work one iota. Been retired since 8/27/21, age 63 and 3 mos. I do have breakfast with three guys I used to work with, maybe on average once every three months or so.

Someone told me once, a thing to keep in mind is if you have a list of things you want to get done, or just do, or visit, space them out....i.e., don't do too much in one day. That's worked for me.

I volunteer at my hometown historical society, but other than that, don't have anything regular I do. I do try to keep something every couple weeks or so to look forward to. Sometimes that's as simple as eating at an Amish place I like about 75 mins. away with a couple friends, or taking a 36-hour trip to the Stude Museum, James Dean Museum, and Auburn museums like I did a couple weekends ago. Just to keep something to look forward to.

Wife is retiring after this school year so I'll probably be travelling with her more, although she likes to hike, see nature, and do the beach, and I'm far-more of a museum/historic stop/pop mainstream place kind of guy.

RE. '56 or '57 Corvette.....I've never been able to tell how you tell one year from the other. No idea. In my mind, I'd want a '56, only because everything '57 Chevrolet seems so over-hyped. I always say I love the '62 best, but those '56/57 Corvettes are beautiful in their simplicity. The '53-55, meh.

ab348 · April 2

Congrats from me as well, Andre. I’ve been retired for 10 years now, almost 11 actually, and it’s a good thing.

uplanderguy · April 2

andre, you're a young guy to be retired, so good on you!

RE.: The 4.3 V6--I regret never driving one. I was always interested in keeping sticker price down, so I thought back then, that could be an interesting alternative to the old 305 in cars like the Monte Carlo and Caprice and surely seemed better than the old 3.8 (Chevy or Buick). I wasn't a fan of the enormous badging for the 4.3 engine though.

stickguy · April 2

Congrats Andre. Planning to do some alternative part time work or just kick back and relax? I really want to be done but I think we are still to chicken to believe we really can, regardless of what the spreadsheet says. 2 more years might not kill us but the way we are falling apart definitely worried that we will miss the “able to really enjoy it” window. So hopefully next year this time at 64 will pull the rip cord.

xwesx · April 2

Congrats, @andre1969 !

roadburner · April 2

fintail said:

ab348 said:

fintail said:
A Plymouth Acclaim drove by my house (my driver's ed car 33 years ago), then I came in, turned on YouTube, and this funny thing was in my feed

I drove all four of those cars at the time. The three domestics were all rentals so likely in base spec, while I drove an Accord DX on a long test drive when I thought I wanted to buy one. I loved the Accord's driving experience as it seemed bright and airy with lots of glass and felt nimble. The dealer experience at the time was horrific though and they acted liked they didn't want to sell it given huge demand, wait lists, and ADMs. I was so turned off I swore off Honda (or at least the local dealer) forever.

As for the other three, I didn't like the Tempo at all. It felt like a rental car and the wheezy 4-banger did it no favors. The Corsica was better, but the engine (I assume the 4-cylinder) felt overmatched and the interior, while also somewhat airy, was pure GM plastic of the era. The Spirit just felt better than both of the domestics, not at all like the K-car it was based on. It seemed solid and was quite comfortable. I suspect neither it nor the Chevy would have been as good an ownership experience as the Honda (though that generation later became known for rust issues in this climate) but if money was a factor the Dodge would have been my choice.
I thought it was funny they had the Tempo and Accord there, maybe something to do with size or interior space. I've always seen the Tempo as a notch lower than the Mopars or Corsica, and the Accord a rung or two up from all three. That generation was peak Accord IMO, and of the lot probably the most likely to still be on the road, unless neglect broke a timing belt or rust eventually got to it. Of the domestics, all things being equal, the Mopar does seem appealing as they might be sturdy and larger, and had the V6 and RT variants. Tempo would eventually get a V6 (Vulcan) for a brief moment, I imagine the torque steer was something.

I remember sometime around 1995 my mom had a rental Corsica, it was moderately loaded (V6, power everything), seemed fairly nice. I recall it had amusing throttle tip-in, it would fly off the line with minimal pressure applied.

GM was using a non-linear throttle linkage that opened the throttle more at the initial movement of the pedal- making the driver think the car had more power than it actually did.

tjc78 · April 2

Congrats Andre!!

andre1969 · April 2

Thanks everyone, for the support. It went well, in the meeting. And once the meeting was over, I sent an email to my two supervisors and team lead (team lead was in the meeting, so she already knew) to make it official.

On the subject of GM's V6es back then, I sometimes wondered what it would have been like if GM had used the improved versions of the Buick 231 in the RWD cars. For example, imagine a 1985 Bonneville G, Grand Prix, Regal, or Cutlass Supreme with the 125 hp fuel injected 231, instead of the wheezy 110 hp 2-bbl. It probably wouldn't have made much difference in the RWD LeSabre or Delta 88, but in a lighter midsize there probably would have been a notable improvement. And then I think it was the next year, 1986, that the 231 had 150 hp with fuel injection. That's the same as the 305 that the Monte Carlo/Grand Prix/Bonneville G used, and 10 hp more than the 307 that the Cutlass Supreme was using. I can't remember if the Regal got the 307 as an option for 1985, but I'm pretty sure it did in 1986-87.

But, I'm guessing the types of people buying those cars didn't really care. The ones buying a V6 just wanted something cheap, comfortable, and good looking in their eye. And many buyers still wanted the smoothness of a V8, even if it wasn't particularly fast. So even if the fuel injected 231 would have made these cars more competitive, the buyers probably wouldn't have cared. And by 1985, these cars were probably almost pure profit, as they were.

xwesx · April 2

Speaking of 307s, I have been somewhat idly considering some upgrades to my C20... I'm considering putting a limited slip differential in the rear axle and possibly doing some engine modernization. Right now, it has a stock 307, two-barrel carburetor, points, etc. In other words, all original. I have an electronic distributor that I have just never installed, and I was considering perhaps an EFI system. Good or bad? Again, this is currently an all-original pickup, 1969 C20 long-bed step side.

I'm thinking that these changes wouldn't be a value hit, but would, say, swapping out the 307 for a modernized 350 be a better move? I've owned this truck for nearly thirty years now (June of 1997), so I'm not all that concerned about value at the moment. But, I do enjoy originality and keeping vehicle character.

I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today!

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