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Maxima 5-speed Problems
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http://www.boostaholic.com/maxima/maxfaqs/perform.html
looks like you fixed it. That's cool! Was my suggestion (post #176) helpfull at all? I kinda gave up after davezny's #178 :-(
In that post he warns about idle speed being affected by AC/lights/O2 sensors etc. How stable is your fix? I mean, does RPM change when you switch on/off AC?
Thanks.
If there are 40 people out there who want their car fixed, then I could put together a professional fix for everyone. What I would get out of the deal is a "production capability", and the 40 owners would get their car fixed. I wouldn't make any money however, and I would actually prefer that any money would be held by someone other than myself.
Here is a rundown of the upfront expenses that I have received estimates on:
$1,400 CA emissions certification test
$1,700 Tooling & design costs for circuit board
$1,500 Tooling cost for special rubber mold
$300 Minimum order for rubber plug
$5,000 Cost for minimum run of circuit boards
$1,560 Pneumatic air control hardware (40 units)
$950 Minimum order for electrical connnectors
--------
$12,410
If we had 40 people, that would come to $310 each.
I would probably start by fixing someones car (maybe opimax or davedzny??) as demonstration that the fix works. After that, we would need enough $'s to do the CA emissions test, and after that, if the CA test went well, everyone would have to decide if they wanted the fix or not.
I'm a very busy person, so if this doesn't work out, it will certainly be OK with me.
For now, I advise that we all hold tight and see what Nissan is going to do (although I'm not holding my breath).
It would be neat if it could be installed and removed without altering anything originally in the car. Especially neat if it didn't complicate diagnostics..
Maybe Nissan will come out with their fix AFTER they see Maxima owners are all buying your system. It seems you have invented a device to slap them in the face.. and they deserve it.
I kept my 1986 Maxima SE completely stock. I kept it for 14 years and put 205,000 miles on it. I have the same aversion to modifiying a new car, but I figured I had no option because it is the only decent and affordible V-6 5-speed sport sedan on the market. It was either fix this one or go buy an automatic.
If you decide to make this available, Count me in
Next available weekend is 24th ,31st not as good, but maybe,and the 7th is on would be best, let me know what works for you,
Mark
PS Doesn't the idle increase when the A/C is on? I remember solenoids use to kick it up for more efficiant engine cooling and A/C compressor. I thought the ecu does that currently.
If you all pool your $'s, then I'll do it. To keep myself free criticisim with other peoples money, I would prefer to use a 3rd party to collect money. Maybe there is a lawyer out there who could draw up some papers??
I also don't want any responsibility for peoples warranty. I am certain that this fix will have no detrimental affect on the engine, but I'm not willing to take any chances... Davedzny might decide to sue me too! (Sorry Dave, I didn't mean to insult you, as I'm just trying to make a point!)
The ECM generally tries to maintain the same rpm, with or without the AC on... sometimes the rpms will still change a little bit.
You say "I wouldn't make any money however, and I would actually prefer that any money would be held by someone other than myself".
If you're not going to start mass-production of this fix on your own, you could simply describe it in this (or Maxima.org's) thread and everybody would decide for himself if the fix is feasible, affordable and smog-proof. BTW, a smog check for an individual is about $30 vs. $1400 for complete certification. In addition, technically skilled people could use breadboards ($2 vs. $5000 min. order for PCBs)
In this case you don't have to worry about warranty, smog, accounting, minimum order size, etc. I could upload it on www.NissanMaximaProblems.com so everybody could give you a credit for that.
-just my 2 cents.
you've solved the problem by designing whatever it is you've created. Instead of dealing with the logistics of mass-production, why not give us a crack at it?
Granted, a your mass-produced version would probably be better than what many of us might wind up with, but I figure a whole bunch of us reading this forum have some technical abilities with electronics and/or electromechanics.
It would be quite generous of you to provide us with the schematics for your fix. Many of us realize that a lot of time and effort went into it, and you'd certainly get back the great appreciation of many.
Realizing you're a busy person, if you were willing, perhaps you could enlist one of us to take whatever 'rough' documentation you have and publish it in a cleaned-up format, using Visio, etc. That would save you some time, and I'd certainly be willing
Pat
The connectors and some of the pneumatic air control hardware must be purchased in minimum quantities. Any one person trying to do their own fix would find these costs to be prohibitive.
I'm not going to post every detail of the fix. Sorry. If enough people want it, then I can put together a professional/certified fix that can be installed by anyone, regardless of their technical abilities.
During the last 18 months, I estimate that I spent close to $1000 working on this fix plus many many hours of my Engineering time. If I figured up the time that I have into it, then I would probably need $15k or $20k. Do I hear anyone volunteering to cover the cost of my expenses and time?
I do respect your decision not to disclose your invention. However, I don't think it will be easy to find 40+ people that would REALLY pay $300.
If you remember some time ago quite a few people agreed to support WWW.NissanMaximaProblems.com I paid the registration, parking fees for 1 year, invested quite a bit of time to make that fu#@&$ Java applet run without crushing, etc. And all support I got were two checks $20 each (one is yours-thanks, man!).
I am not complaining--those money and time I spent are not comparable to your investment in this problem; however, this is a good lesson for me
Anyway, I'll wait for Nissan's solution. If it's no good, I'll start implementing my fix (post #176). Any other ideas, anybody?
Just a thought
Speed
However, I have received one or two complaints from automatic owners who said that their car would "hunt" during downhill stretches with the cruise control on. The hunting was not caused by the transmission, but rather, it was due to the "fuel-cut" kicking in and out on the unloaded engine.
The automatic transmission owners do not notice the "fuel-cut" as much as the 5 speeders because the transmission always sucks a slight amount of energy that loads the engine just enough to delay or avoid the closed-throttle fuel cut.
Before I could say with certainty that the fix would be good for an automatic, I would have to do some tests.
How many miles do you have on your car? My old 86' had an emissions light that would come on every time the odometer rolled over a multiple of 30,000 miles. I had to push a reset button on an electronic module behind the left kick panel to turn it off.
Warren - haven't seen you post in a while. We could always meet up again one day if you want to see how my pig drives nowadays since I have learned how to make the fuel cut appear "on demand" now... lol
One depressing thing was to see how many cars were stick shift in the part of Europe I was in. I would say 90% were stick, whereas here in the states I would guess 90% are automatic.
IMHO, the best way to market/distribute the fix that bigk200 has come up with would be to either license it or distribute it via a third party company that already has some market share/reputation in this area, such as Stillen, Hypertech, and such. That way, you receive the backing of a company that already has enough money and resources needed. Of course, this brings up a bunch of other problems and such like compensation, rights, etc. Just food for thought.
After not driving my car for almost two weeks, I had to get used to how sensitive the throttle is again. It took me a couple of starts until my technique of blipping the gas and slipping the clutch together went smooth again.
I'm going to try to test drive a new Subaru Impreza WRX and dream about buying the new M3....
Dave Z
And by the way, I don't have to go through the "blip" routine anymore to launch my car in first. The car is truely pleasant to drive now... everything I had hoped for in the first place.
Its amazing how Nissan just doesn't care.
Haven't been around in a long time and it's good to see that you are willing to market your fix. If you get something set up you can count me in. I live in Maine and the winter has been hell with the fuel cut problem. All of the stop and go.
thanks,
Dave
I didn't think you would mind, so I mentioned your fix on alt.autos.nissan.maxima in order to try and drum up a few more takers. I haven't seen many responses there but maybe they tried to reach you directly instead. I 'no-spammed' your email address so the spam-bots wouldn't find it, and removed your location info.
Old Question:
Has anyone heard anything from Nissan?
Pat
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I was told the other day by a Nissan field rep that within the next month or so there will be a software update for Maxima ECM's to address a fuel-cut problem during shifting on the 5-speed trans. The fix involves reprogramming the ECM with the Nissan Consult unit. I doubt there will an advance notice to the dealer, so check with them in a month or so.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I hope this is for real.. but I have a question;
Can you really reprogram the ECM with a Consult unit? Or is it just a diagnostic tool?
Pat
The reprogram they tried on my car was for stalling when cold, which I never had. They were hoping it would fix the fuel cut, which of course it didn't. If anything, it made driveability worse since now the car stays at 1000 RPM for about 5 seconds or so before returning to idle with the release of the gas pedal.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that this info is true, but I will not get my hopes up or stop my current "fight" with Nissan.
Dave Z
Lets wait and see.
As for me, I will have to insist on driving another car with the updated ECM before I let them mess with my car.
Has anyone heard of this? I have an appointment for next Thursday for them do this. I was wondering if this is the only thing that was fixed and if there really was an improvement.
I asked the service manager to fax me a copy but he refused. I also called 800-NISSAN1 and asked for a copy and they also refused (even though I was able to get them to fax NTB's before).
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Dan
Mark
Maybe Nissan finally got off of their @ss and did something for a change.
If they really have fixed it, they still can't replace my lost "new car expericence", or the countless hours that I spent working on it, or the $1000 I spent on it, or the anger and frustration that I experienced.
Nissan should be ashamed of themselves.
And now we wait to see if the fix is really genuine.
I think I'll wait for others to test it out first.
P.S. Nissan described it as an on-off problem at rpm's under 1800. More accurately, it is an on-off problem at rpm's under 2500. If it were 1800, the problem would be much less severe.
I live in southern Maine and purchased my car in New Hampshire. (Not that it matters.) I have the appointment for next Thursday and I can't wait. My only fear is that this will end up messing something else up in the process. Worst case is they put the old code back in and I live with the problem until I get rid of the car.
My guess is Nissan is going to finally make good on something that has pissed a lot of people off. I can say one thing though, if it wasn't for the Internet news groups and forums and the hundreds of postings on this topic, I'd have thought this was a lost cause. Not hearing anything from the dealer for a year and a half would have made me wonder if it was just me.
If anyone else get's an opportunity to have their ECM reprogrammed before I do, please post the results.
If you need to find out more about it I would call your dealer and ask about the NTB. If I understand it correctly, the code is on the CD so they don't even have to order it.
The current ECM programming will cause the rpms to drop to idle once you reach 2500 rpm.
If this fix is legitimate, then you will manage to reach a lower rpm (1800?) before it goes to idle. This test must be done without any external loads such as airconditioner, electrical, etc.
I have not called up a dealer to get a copy yet, but I will definitely want and need a printed copy of this TSB to use in my current "dealings" with Nissan. I am curious to see the result of this TSB, and hope that it stops the fuel cut and the rpm rise between upshifts. We'll see.
Dave Z
"on/off throttle sensitivity in first gear at low engine/vehicle speeds (1400-1800 rpm) during slight accelerator pedal movement. The cause may be fuel cut/recovery transition when the throttle is closed and then opened slightly. A new ECM program is available that will eliminate fuel cut/recovery at engine speeds below 1800 rpm."
I am skeptical in some ways, but all we can do is wait and see. Their choice of words to describe the problem and solution are not specific enough to know exactly what is being changed with the fix.
I test drove a friends Altima last year (1998 model I think). On the stationary test, I was always able to control the throttle from 3,000 down to 1,600 to 1,800 rpm. In a round about way, I think the TSB is saying that the ECM update will make the throttle behave in a similar fashion the the Altima throttle.
Whoever has the update done first, please perform the stationary test for me. That is the only good way to know if it has been fixed right or if they used a "mickey mouse" solution such as time delays and such.
Lets hope its different this time!
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1536952&a=12496690&f=0
Looks like its legit, although we are talking about Nissan USA, who dragged their feet for a year and a half before officially acknowleging that a problem may exist with manual tranny Maximas.
I may wait till someone like davedzny can evaluate the TSB and let us know if the problem has really been addressed and cured.
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?s=9ff0724a77aeb86074f162743fd77e2b&threadid=32600&pagenumber=2
for those that can't be bothered - basically he says that it doesn't work!
I'd like to hear from someone with a stock Maxima that has had this done. I'd really like to believe that Nissan could fix this problem if they wanted to.
Dave
"I am hopeful that this fix is legitimate, but I had a nightmare last night, and I dreamed that this is the same "fix" that they already did on my car, Davedzny's car, and other cars."
What a "nightmare"!
Will let you know!
Pat
Joe
Please do the stationary test:
With the car in neutral, take the rpm's up to 3000 and then slowly bring the rpms down. Can you control the rpm's all the way from 3000 down to something below 2000 rpm? (Or does the engine drop to idle when you reach 2500 rpm?) Do the test without any external loads such as airconditioner, electrical, etc.
This test will confirm the validity of the fix, or it will prove it to be worthless (just like Nissan's many other attempts during the past 20 months).
Stock 2000 SE 5-speed with the NTB performed,
observations after an evening of various driving:
--RPM test: Failed.
RPMs drop starting at somewhere around 2000rpm.
--Idle: Pass
Still around 600+ as it always was
--'Short Rolling hills at 25mph test': Pass
I used to feel a pronounced fuel-cut in 2nd/3rd gear, it now feels more like drive lash. This is good.
--Stop & Go traffic test: Better (not 100% though)
Traffic was more stop than go, and this test is better performed when speed averages 10-20mph, when I can get the car to really buck. But in 0-10mph driving, it seemed to be better.
No ther new things were noted, such as high idle, etc. I agree with bigk200 that they should have made this correction for 2500rpm and under, not 1800rpm.
The jury is still out for me, but I suspect that I might now be able to live with the problem. The real test for me will be traffic around 10-20. IF there are any tests someone wants me to perform, let me know.
However, I am still skeptical.
Can you be certain that no external loads were present, such as airconditioner, alternator, etc.?
After all we've been through, it is difficult for me to believe that Nissan made a move in the right direction.
Assuming that you could control the rpm's down to 2000 before dropping to idle, it appears that they didn't go far enough with their fix. The car would be much more pleasant to drive (and safer too) if the rpm's are controllable down to at least 1650.
For those of you who may be interested, here's the new Altima with the 240HP 3.5, and a 0-60 of 6.3 sec.
http://www.nissannews.com/nissan/pr_events/2001/newyork/altima/photos.html
Joe
As I said before, your glowing endorsement means nothing because you don't know the how a true 5-speed should drive.
If you want instructions on the proper driving characteristics of a 5-speed, let me know. Or better yet, go on your own to test drive a 5-series BMW with a stick.
Thanks,
Mark
and read my thoughts after having the TSB done. Click on the link for 5th Generation and then the link for the topic "The Fuel-cut TSB is HERE !!!" page 4. Sorry, but the full URL could not be pasted here.
Dave Z