Maxima 5-speed Problems
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while, and now I am going to finally explain the
“fuel-cut” problem in detail. I have tried for
several weeks to persuade a Nissan zone representative to provide an extended warranty to
me in exchange for what I have learned, but I have
not been successful. In fact, Dave’s contact
(Carol) called me personally to tell me that Nissan didn’t even want my information if it was provided for FREE! I think Nissan and Firestone are cut from the same fabric!
I had considered just fading away from this board
taking my knowledge with me. After all, if Nissan
doesn’t care about their customers, then why
should I? After a few days of thought, I have
decided that the customers deserve to know why
their cars are screwed up.
In a day or two, I will receive the “go jump in
the lake” letter from Nissan. I might scan it and
post it for all to see. Anyway, here goes .
In a sentence, the smoking gun is the idle control
valve, and the way that it is controlled by the
ECM.
The 2K Maxima is designed to accelerate
aggressively with only a slight movement of the gas pedal. The way that Nissan achieves this is by simultaneously dumping a huge amount of auxiliary air into the engine via the idle control valve. Nissan Engineers probably did this to “wind up” the automatic transmission torque converter as quickly as possible in order to make the car very quick off the line.
The aggressiveness of this air dump is VERY new to
the 2000 Maxima design. In fact, the entire
intake system (including the idle control valve) is different from the 1999 model. In addition, the ECM was redesigned for year 2000.
The large amount of air that is dumped into the
engine via the idle control valve is not a huge
problem at first, except that it’s possible to run
over a pedestrian. However, the extra air ends up
being a problem when slowing down because the idle
control valve is not subsequently closed as the gas pedal is released.
The “fuel-cut” scenario goes like this:
The driver steps on the gas to accelerate, and the
idle control valve opens to assist with the
acceleration. The increased voltage on the TPS
(throttle position sensor) provides an “advance
notice” to the computer to expect additional air.
This expected additional air is then matched with
additional fuel from the injectors. The computer
then watches the mass air flow sensor signal to
verify that the additional air really did arrive,
and if a major discrepancy is detected between the
TPS signal and the mass air flow sensor, the check
engine light will be illuminated. Ultimately, the
mass air flow sensor (and exhaust sensors to some
extent) have final control over the amount of fuel
that is injected into the engine. The TPS only
provides “advance warning” to the computer and does not ultimately control this process.
And so, after the engine has accelerated and the
car is traveling at some higher speed, the driver
will eventually want to slow down. The most
obvious way to do this is to just ease off the gas
pedal. However, as the driver attempts to deprive
the engine of air by releasing the gas pedal, the
engine continues to acquire large quantities of air from the idle control valve. (Remember I said earlier that the idle control valve remains open even as the gas pedal is released). Because the mass air flow sensor has the final say in how much fuel is injected into the engine, and because the engine continues to receive air through the idle control valve, the engine continues to produce more power than is desired. Finally, when the gas pedal reaches the end of its travel, the TPS outputs a “throttle closed” voltage and the computer subsequently cuts fuel. This is the “fuel-cut” phenomenon that so many have complained about.
Thus, the engine cycles from producing a fairly
significant amount of power to producing NEGATIVE
power in the fuel-cut mode. The word “negative” is used because the engine is compression braking
during the “fuel-cut” mode. There is no in-between it either produces too much power or negative power.
And now back to the sequence off events:
While the “fuel-cut” condition is in effect, the
engine provides maximum compression braking. It is also operating at maximum vacuum which means that it is sucking as much air as possible through the idle control valve. However, as long as the TPS is outputing a “throttle closed” position, the “fuel-cut” mode remains in effect.
If at some point during the “fuel-cut” mode the
driver decides to speed up, the TPS will
subsequently stop outputting the “throttle closed”
voltage and the computer will begin providing fuel
to the engine. Because the idle control valve has
remained open during the entire “fuel-cut” period,
and because the mass air flow sensor has continued
to see air flowing into the engine, the computer
calls for a large amount of fuel to match the air
that is flowing into the engine. Thus, the car
will accelerate more than expected. Sometimes this surprising acceleration will cause the driver to quickly let off the gas, only to be subjected to an immediate “fuel-cut” again. Thus, a vicious cycle can occur during low speed driving lurch (accelerate) forward hard compression braking lurch forward hard compression braking etc.
Excessive air from the idle control valve is also
the cause of rising engine rpm’s between shift
changes. A small delay is designed into the ECM
prior to issuing a “fuel-cut”, and as the engine
continues to acquire air through the idle control
valve during shifts, the computer matches this air
with fuel. Thus, the unloaded engine rpm’s will
float up about 400-500 rpm during each shift
change.
And so, the engine cycles continually between too
much power and too little power with no ability to
feather the throttle up and down at minimal outputs of power. This cycle repeats itself over and over and over and over again . until the driver is stark raving crazy. To further enhance the drivers emotional torture, Nissan Engineers and zone reps routinely tell owners (with a straight face) that the car is perfect and “it is all in the drivers head”.
The “fuel-cut” problem manifests itself in several
ways:
1.) Excessive fuel consumption because the engine
gets a big dump of air and fuel each time it comes
off of idle, and because the engine is often
producing more power than is desired.
2.) An engine that lurches between no power and
too much power while operating with cruise control.
3.) An uncontrollable throttle on 5-speed models,
making the car lurch badly at low speeds and
annoyingly at higher speeds.
4.) Hard downshifts on the automatic transmission
models, which is probably caused by a sudden
“fuel-cut” on “closed throttle” from the TPS.
5.) Rising engine rpm’s between shifts on the
5-speed models.
6.) Unsafe/uncontrollable accelerations when
starting out, which can cause a collision with
another vehicle, or possibly with a pedestrian.
For those of you who want to argue that this is
normal, and was done because of emissions, let me
remind you that emissions laws are the same for
year 1999 and 2000. This driveability problem has
only surfaced with the 2000 model. Furthermore,
other manufacturers have not resorted to such high
flows of air and fuel to achieve compliance with
emissions laws, so why should the Maxima be unique
in that regard?
Also, for those of you who want to argue that only
a few Maximas have the “fuel-cut” problem, and it
must be due to a faulty component, I would have to
disagree. I have yet to find a 2000 Maxima that
passes the stationary test (trying to ease rpm’s
from 3,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm). They all fail this
test (both 5-speeds and automatics) because of the
idle control valve. The only real difference from
one car to the next is the driver. Some slight
differences probably exist from car to car, but the biggest variable has to be the driver.
For those of you who think there must be a faulty
component, then here is a list of the candidates: Idle Control Valve, Throttle Position Sensor, Absolute Pressure Sensor, Front and Rear Oxygen sensor, VIAS system, Mass Air Flow Sensor, Intake Air Temperature Sensor, Coolant Temperature Sensor, EGR system, and EVAP system. Go ahead and check them all out. I think you will find all of them to be in good working order. It is the ECM's control of the idle control valve that is the problem.
In summary, the 2K Maxima engine has been
optimized for the automatic transmission with
little or no thought given to its compatibility
with a manual transmission. The 2K Maxima 5-speed
needs to have its own engine control software
rather than shared software with the automatic
models. THE IDLE CONTROL VALVE NEEDS TO BE CLOSED
AS THE GAS PEDAL IS RELEASED. FURTHERMORE, THE
IDLE CONTROL VALVE
OK, I’ve been holding out on all of you for a
while, and now I am going to finally explain the
“fuel-cut” problem in detail. I have tried for
several weeks to persuade a Nissan zone representative to provide an extended warranty to
me in exchange for what I have learned, but I have
not been successful. In fact, Dave’s contact
(Carol) called me personally to tell me that Nissan didn’t even want my information if it was provided for FREE! I think Nissan and Firestone are cut from the same fabric!
I had considered just fading away from this board
taking my knowledge with me. After all, if Nissan
doesn’t care about their customers, then why
should I? After a few days of thought, I have
decided that the customers deserve to know why
their cars are screwed up.
In a day or two, I will receive the “go jump in
the lake” letter from Nissan. I might scan it and
post it for all to see. Anyway, here goes .
In a sentence, the smoking gun is the idle control
valve, and the way that it is controlled by the
ECM.
The 2K Maxima is designed to accelerate
aggressively with only a slight movement of the gas pedal. The way that Nissan achieves this is by simultaneously dumping a huge amount of auxiliary air into the engine via the idle control valve. Nissan Engineers probably did this to “wind up” the automatic transmission torque converter as quickly as possible in order to make the car very quick off the line.
The agg DOES NOT NEED TO BE OPENED SO
SEVERELY WHEN ACCELERATING FROM IDLE SPEED.
I hope this helps everyone understand why the car
drives so poorly.
Bruce...
If it wouldn't be too inconvenient, perhaps in future you'd announce that you're closing a topic with something more than the time it takes you to slam the door. That way, topic participants could re-create the topic elsewhere and advise others where to find it.
As you're the only entity capable of posting into the old Nissan 5-Speed Issues forum, I'd appreciate it if you'd be so kind as to publish an announcement that the topic has moved to the following location:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?c=Maintenance&t=1698&a=1&H=2&f=0
You'll note that the new location is consistent with your suggestion.
Thanks.
Bruce... (y2kse)
Bruce...
a forum, I don't know what is! Maybe we'll get
better treatment in here!
That said, hats off to Edmunds for sponsoring our
little swarree. NOW, back to business.
BigK, I think we should add number 7: Difficulty
in starting out without stalling because the bottom sometimes drops out! (Add your own improved techie explanation.)
Thanks for your understanding,
L8_Apex
Sedans Host
maxdave:
In regard to your observation that he rpm's jumped to 1500, check this out: If a person could bump the TPS voltage up a tiny bit from the "closed throttle" position without actually opening the throttle (ie. the gas pedal), the rpm's will actually go immediately to 1500 rpm. Pretty remarkable huh? The reason for the quick jump to 1500 rpm is that the idle control valve quickly opens up when coming off of the "closed throttle" position. So even though you think you are "driving" the car with the gas pedal, the idle control valve and ECM are actually doing it for you.
Bruce...
The three of us will probably meet again next week to compare cars, so anyone with suggestions for tests and such let us know! BTW, I also posted some links to our boards here in the USENET group alt.autos.nissan.maxima
Dave Z
Really though, the problem is with the ECM rather than the valve. The valve is only doing what it is told to do.
In regard to your idea of adding a resistor or some kind of circuit to modify signals going to the IAC, that would not work because of the way that the valve works. The IAC is not controlled by a linear voltage, but rather, it is stepped in and out with alternating voltages on each of (4) wires. It would be very difficult to alter its movement with an external circuit because you would have to simultaneously keep track of the ECM's signals so that the valve could be returned to where the ECM thinks it should be prior to idleing.
Thanks for your ideas though because they certainly are appreciated.
There is an aftermarket alternative that's expensive (~$1200) but appears to offer substantial horsepower and torque increases. My understanding is that it works on a 2K+ Maxima. Whether that alternative would address the fuel-cut issue is unknown, however.
Check out the following URL:
http://www.racersgroup.com/program/theprogram.htm
Bruce...
First of all, thanks for all this info on the cut-off problem. I bought my 2K 5-spd SE in July and have loved everything about it since then. It seems to drive great to me, but my last car was an '87 Caprice wagon with a worn out timing chain, so just about anything would be a dream to drive after that monster.
Anyway, I tried the 3000 to 2000 RPM test and my car fails it too, however I can't really understand what the significance of it. I haven't noticed the engine cutting out when I actually drive the car, just when I do the test at a standstill, and it doesn't even cut out. It just goes to idle speed. I drive the car 120 miles a day -- I have a nightmarish commute -- and have not noticed anything, except that occasionally I can't get it into 4th gear for the life of me.
So, here are my questions:
1) What difference does it make if the engine drops from 2500 RPM to nothing when you rev the engine up at a standstill but experience no problems changing gears when driving? I have about 3900 miles on my car now; should I expect the cut-off problem to get worse with more miles?
2) Has anyone experienced the 4th gear lockout problem? It hasn't happened to me very often, maybe 2 or 3 times, but is annoying, especially in a new car. What could this mean?
3) What's new for the 2001 year? I think I read somewhere on this list that there would be radio controls on the steering wheel.
Thanks
Let your engine warm up thoroughly, then find a nice, flat, empty road. Put your car in 1st gear and bring the engine up to 1500 rpm. Now try to hold your speed without either accelerating or decelerating. My bet is you won't be able to do it no matter how finely you try to control the gas pedal. That's the fuel-cut condition in action.
I haven't experienced 4th gear lockout, but I was getting some pretty sticky shifts into 2nd gear. I drained my transmission and filled it with Red Line MT-90 Manual Transmission Lubricant. The MT-90 provided a significant improvement. Try it. You'll like it.
Check out Redline products at:
http://www.redlineoil.com/
Bruce...
Very Interesting Forum
Has anyone tested the 2001 Maxima 5 Speeds?
My wife uses 89 octane in her 2K Max GXE A/T. Her car runs just fine.
Bruce...
For my money, I'd like warrenul or davedzny or bigk200 to test one and report back. They've been banging their heads against this issue for a lot longer than I have.
Bruce...
In a nutshell, here are my thoughts: great car overall, although I personally can do without the 20th Anniversary's "boy racer" tack-on front/side/rear spoilers. The clutch was lighter on the foot than my '98, and the transmission did not seem to have any noticeable improvements when compared to my current Maxima's (although tolerable, I wish the tranny's on the Maxima's did not feel as rubbery as they do). Also, I really enjoyed the new interior and dashboard designs, and could tell this car has a roomier trunk and interior than in my '98.
The steering wheel audio controls were very handy, and I was surprised at the sound quality of the new Bose seven speaker system (did not notice any rear deck rattling induced from the subwoofer's new location). I was also able to notice a difference in the ride quality when comparing the 17" wheels to the 16" wheels on my '98 (a firmer and sportier feel, especially when driving over dips and potholes).
And now, the "fuel cut" issue: while performing the stationary test at idle (with a warm engine), the RPM's dropped to idle @ approx. 2300 when I tried to back the RPM's down from 3000 to 2000. I performed this test about five times (to the amusement of the salesman sitting next to me), and it did it each time. However, in the short time I had the car, I really didn't notice the problem manifesting itself in any other ways. My range of driving on this test drive went from near redline shifts to mellow "parade-like" cruising, and it really wasn't an issue for me.
After the test drive, I went over to pick up my '98 from the service drive and briefly spoke with my service advisor about the "fuel cut" problem with the 2000+ Maxima's. He told me he had heard nothing about it until a few weeks ago, when a customer brought in his '00 SE 5 speed for a check (the customer was having the "bucking" problems while on the freeway during stop-and-go traffic).
My service advisor said he was able to re-create the customer's problem during his own test drive, but was unable to correct it since the car performed to factory specifications when diagnosed and checked out by a mechanic. His exact words to me were: "I saw the problem, but we just don't know how to fix it!" He also added that I was (reportedly) only the second customer to bring this issue to his attention.
So, where do I go from here? When the '01 5 speed SE's start hitting the showrooms in mass (hopefully in about a month), I will be trading in the old for the new. The new Maxima was just too nice...
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/ivoq/default.htm
By the way, if you do register a complaint, you won't be alone. Check out the Customer Complaints section. Look for the following:
ODI ID: 720641
Make: NISSAN
Model: MAXIMA
Year: 2000
Date of Failure:
Incident: No
Fire: No
Number of Injuries:
Component: FUEL:THROTTLE LINKAGES AND CONTROL:PEDAL
Summary: THIS VEHICLE IS EXHIBITING A PROBLEM OF NOT BEING ABLE TO CONTROL THE ENGINE SPEED WITH THE THROTTLE PEDAL. THERE HAVE BEEN NUMEROUS COMPLAINTS REGARDING THIS
Bruce...
So after test driving the Anniversary Edition Maxima, which Maxima are you going to trade your 98 Maxima for?
Did the dealer give you any indication how much they wanted for the Anniversary Edition Maxima? I e-mailed some dealers inquiring about pricing on the Anniversary Edition Maxima, they said close to MSRP? Would you pay MSRP for the Anniversary Edition Maxima? How did you like the perforated leather seats compared to the regular leather seats?
George
Dave Z
Hey bigk200, what do you think about Dave Z's idea for a web page? I kinda like it.
Bruce...
After reading all the posts on this problem, do you think I should stay clear of 2k Max?
Thanks.
* I'll be getting a '01 SE 5 speed (non anniversary edition) with SE comfort & convenience / leather packages and the meridian edition. Gray lustre with frost interior.
* My local Southern California dealer wanted $5000 over MSRP for the anniversary edition, which I personally would never pay since the vehicles (although limited in supply) will be more readily available in the next four to eight weeks. Based on the hype my salesman was feeding me, it was pretty obvious he was setting me up for getting a "great" deal by paying "only" MSRP.
* The perforated seats were nice, although I didn't notice much of a difference when climbing out of them and back into my '98's leather seats.
* I always lease my cars, and got a fantastic leasing arrangement set-up through Carpoint.com (for my wife's 2000 Altima SE).
“ We do read every letter, and appreciate your comments and suggestions. When we receive a large quantity of mail on one subject, we publish representative letters in Motor Trend magazine's monthly Letters column ”
That does not promise too much, but if we all write maybe they’ll pay some attention. I really hope they did not test Max 2001 yet.
If MT gets a lot of letters on fuel cut in Max2k, they’ll definitely reflect that in Max2001 review. That’s what we really need - an acknowledgment from a respectable magazine that the problem DOES exist.
I still think our best shot would be to try to get in touch with Gonzo Schexnayder. Who is Gonzo Schexnayder, you ask? He is the author of the Edmunds article which first described the fuel-cut condition in the 2K Nissan Maxima. For those of you who haven't seen the article yet, check out:
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/editorial/features/maxima/index.html
Look for a section in italics right next to a picture of the 2K Max. It starts with the words, "[a] side note about the tests . . ."
Anybody have any ideas how we might be able to contact Gonzo?
Bruce...
"Hi Manager --
I'd like to get in touch with one of your editors, Gonzo Schexnayder. Gonzo wrote an article some time ago called "Where are all the Manual Transmissions?" The article is available at:
http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/editorial/features/maxima/index.html
In that article, Gonzo referred to a problem he encountered when testing the 2000 Nissan Maxima 5-speed. When the car was returned to Nissan, they informed him that the problem was the fault of a specific component. Gonzo reported Nissan's findings in his article.
I have reason to believe that Nissan misinformed Gonzo as to the real cause of the problem. Perhaps he'd be interested in setting the record straight.
How would you suggest I proceed?"
Let's see what that gets us.
Bruce...
However, the bio on Gonzo Schexnayder says that he left Edmunds in July of this year.
Pat
Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
it does not hurt to try both the Edmunds and MT. I understand that MT might not listen to us, but we should try. MT would DEFINITELY not hear us if we don’t speak
P.S. Please let me know if you find Mr. Schexnayder. I will write him as well.
"Hi Chris --
I just received a message from manager that Gonzo is no longer with Edmunds. That fact, however, should not be used as a reason to dismiss my communication to Gonzo.
In a nutshell, Nissan misinformed Edmunds concerning the cause of a problem that Gonzo discovered while researching his article and Gonzo misinformed the public as a result. The true cause of the problem is now known. Nissan, however, appears unwilling to treat the problem with the respect it deserves and issue a Technical Service Bulletin to correct it despite numerous requests from 2000 Nissan Maxima 5-speed owners.
I assume Edmunds does not want to be an unwitting party to the continued dissemination of misinformation. I therefore ask that you or a member of your staff contact me so that we can go about setting the record straight. Hopefully, in the process, we can also inspire Nissan to take appropriate corrective action."
I'll let you know if I receive a response.
Bruce...
The idea is to keep pressure on Nissan from the inside and the outside. I'll be penning my letter to Motor Trend this weekend if not sooner.
BTW, if we ever do get Nissan to issue a TSB, I think we ought to throw one heckuva fuel-cut party. HIGH-OCTANE if you know what I mean.
You guys up for that?
Bruce...
I'll be test driving a 2001 SE Friday right off the truck. But I have to decide....Integra GS-R or Max SE. Right now, it's a coin toss.
Advice?
I'm going to go with a nice 97-99 SE 5-spd. I know someone said that the fuel cut was still present in the earlier models, but barely noticeable as compared to the 2Ks. Did it get worse year to year from 97 to 99? Or are they all relatively the same?
Integra:
1. Will outhandle a Maxima - better feel and better balance.
2. Not a lot of low end torque. The Maxima is much more driveable around town. The Maxima will out accelerate GS-R fairly easily, especially on the street where a GS-R owner is unlikely to launch at a high rpm.
3. Cramped rear seat. New Maximas are pretty roomy.
4. Integra's shifter is light years beyond the 5-speed in the Max. Cleaner, more positive shifts.
5. Pretty noisy as compared to the Max which is geared more to the luxury buyer.
6. Integra is due for a redesign next year. Could hurt resale value. The new car might have a 6-speed which you could regret not getting!
7. More aftermarket parts for the Integra, if you care about such things.
8. No fuel cut!
For me, I love low end torque, and I don't think any other V-6/manual combo in this price range pulls like the Maxima does. The engine is truly awesome and it makes the car. I'm also getting older and a quieter interior is a good thing. Plus the Maxima is somewhat of a sleeper, whereas every other teenager within a 40 mile radius of my house owns an Integra with a fart can muffler and added on Type R badges.
On my Max2k fuel cut-off is barely noticeable as long as AC is on. In addition, window defogger (if turned on) loads the engine and "softens" the cut-off as well.
I'm wondering, how long will AC last if I use it all the time? So far that’s the only solution to “cut-off”.
You are right. I did have the AC on, full blast. When I test drive the 01 this Friday, I will turn off everything. Thanks for the tip.
frankjay -
Yes, the cars are different. The sensible part of me says to buy the SE for the extra room and comfort. But the kid part can't forget how much fun the test drive was. Question is, will it get tiresome during my 45 mile highway commute each way? And how will it do on New England snow-covered roads?
One thing is for sure...If I see the fuel cut problem in all its glory, it is unlikely that I'll buy. Having precise speed control of a 5-speed is the reason I won't buy an automatic. If that is taken away, I might as well drive my wife's Taurus wagon.
Extra loads will diminish the "fuel-cut" effect because the gas pedal has to be pushed a bit farther than it would be if the engine were unloaded. As a result, there is more gas pedal travel available before a "closed throttle" voltage is reached on the TPS.
"Chris,
In his article, Gonzo pointed to a problem with the Maxima's inability to maintain rpm below a certain point. He gives a description of the problem in an italicized section of the article, to wit:
"A side note about the tests: While trying to maintain rpm consistency before releasing the clutch for the zero-to-60 runs, the engine in the SE would sometimes inexplicably drop rpms. We were concerned and called Nissan after our testing. They confirmed, once the car had been returned, that there was a faulty throttle position sensor. We found our best times were achieved by dropping the clutch at 2,800 rpm and didn't find that the throttle position sensor affected the runs other than to make them a little more difficult to start."
In fact, the problem was not and never has been associated with the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). Numerous attempts have been made to correct the problem via TPS adjustments. All such attempts have failed.
The real cause of the problem was discovered by a mechanical engineer after much time, research, and monetary outlay on his part. A complete description of the cause of what we unaffectionately refer to as the "fuel-cut condition" can be found at http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?c=Maintenance&t=1698. I'd recommend that you review Post # 2.
Nissan appears reluctant to even consider the information in that post as the root cause of the condition. I'm hopeful that you may be able to persuade them to reconsider their position through your good offices. Obviously, you can speak to Nissan with much more authority than we can.
You may also want to issue a correction to Gonzo's article."
Bruce...