Full Sized Vans

twc_de · March 1999

I get about 17 MPG on open country roads (flat, straight, with a few scattered lights, etc.) on my 2500 extended Express with a 5.7 and 3.73 rear
I expect this number to drop a little after break in & I start driving it harder. Experience tells me to expect 19 MPG on highway

familyvan · April 1999

Regarding seats and custom benches: There are several places that will make any seat, any color and any style. Here is one example.Sales co WWW.sales.com/vanseats

familyvan · April 1999

I am sorry. The above address is wrong. It is WWW.Saleco.com/vanseats

familyvan · April 1999

Lets try this one more time. I feel like such an idiot, but it is hard to type with a sick squirming baby on your lap. The correct address is WWW.Salesco.com/vanseats

midasgold · April 1999

Well, our long-awaited Savana has finally been assembled and delivered to our dealer (Yay!). We're going there on Monday to face the finance dude (aka another salesman) and tell him, "No, we don't want undercoating/paint protection/fabric protection/training wheels/blah-blah-blah"... BUT... what do y'all think about getting an extended warranty for this puppy?

Our gut instinct tells us not to get it (we didn't get one for our Subaru Forester). Consumer Reports says don't get it unless you know that the particular vehicle has a tendency to be unreliable... but that you shouldn't buy such a vehicle in the first place...

We have no way of knowing how reliable this GM full-sized van is gonna be. Consumer Reports doesn't even mention it, and it's a pretty rare vehicle - not enough owners to give us an idea of what our experience may be like.

Whaddya all think??? To warranty or not to warranty?

C13 · April 1999

A Savanna's a rare vehicle?

The finance dude is another salesman?

1. I'd run to the bank first and get prequalified for the best rate possible before going to the dealer. If the dealer can beat it, good for him. If not, you've get a good rate. You DO NOT want to go to the dealer without a loan already arranged, or you'll be forced to take whatever they can get you.

2. I've always heard that extended warranties aren't worth it unless you know you're gonna put tremendous miles on a vehicle, and thus be out of the regular warranty in a short time. I've never yet been in such a situation.

Remember, with any warranty work, the service manager gets to determine whether the problem in question constitutes normal wear and tear, in which case you'll hear something like, "Hey, I'd like to fix it under warranty but I know the manufacturer won't reimburse me for it."

I'd skip the extended warranty. It's a very durable vehicle in general. With normal maintenance it should serve you well for a long time.

And get that loan approved NOW. That's where you could lose some SERIOUS money.

midasgold · April 1999

Well, a Savana *passenger* van is a rare vehicle... so how do I tap into the experiences of all those cargo-van owners? ;-)

As for the finance dude, I *hope* he isn't another salesman... but, based on what I've learned here at Edmunds and elsewhere, I'm preparing myself for the worst...

And, finally, financing? No sweat: there's an incentive on now for 2.9% GMAC for 36 months OR $500 cash back (if we choose the latter, we wouldn't get another loan)... we're still going back and forth on which way to go...

C13 · April 1999

Oh, OK.

Hard to imagine that the $500 could beat the 2.9%. I guess some people would rather have the cash in hand. I'd *definitely* go for the 2.9%.

The Savanna passenger van might be a rarity in the world but our little dealership usually had (seems like) 8 or 10 of em on hand. Maybe 6 or 8. Anyway, it's not gonna make it hard to fix or get parts for.

walshj · April 1999

Think twice about manufacturer financing. Keep in mind that low interest rate loans are only realized over the entire life of the loan. If the van were totaled and paid off by insurance you wouldn't realize the full discount. If you run into some extra $$$ and choose to pay the van off or decide to sell it before it's paid off you again do not realize the full discount. Most often the cash rebate up front is the better deal because you realize the full discount immediately. There are some terrific deals on new car financing. My wife and I ordered a new Express and are financing through our credit union at 5.99%. Drop a note and let us know how you like your new Savanna.

jboater · April 1999

walshj makes some good points.

midasgold, your break-even on a 36 month loan is 6.25%, if you go the full 36 months. A 3 year loan might also carry some rather hefty payments.

Jerry

midasgold · April 1999

Wow! Your dealership's a rarity itself - no dealership within 100 miles or more from here had a single Savana passenger (non-cargo/non-conversion) van in stock (at least not one equipped to our needs)! There are dealers here who even refused to order it for us, fearing they'd be stuck with it if we backed out of the deal.

Nah, I'm not worried about parts or stuff like that - as I said, the cargo vans are everywhere, and the 5.7L Vortec engine is pretty ubiquitous...

midasgold · April 1999

Thanks for your input - makes me feel better that we decided (in the 11th hour) to take the rebate...

jboater: you're right that the 3-yr loan would have had big payments. According to our Quicken software, they would have been around $668/mo. A longer loan would have smaller payments, but with this particular incentive the rate goes up one point for each additional year (2.9/36 mo, 3.9/48 mo, 4.9/60 mo). We weren't interested in the size of the payments as much as the big picture, though.

Would you mind telling me how you arrived at 6.25% as the break-even rate?

C13 · April 1999

Congrats on the purchase, Midas.

It's somewhat regional, what the different dealers stock, and it's also somewhat personal. Some of the other salesmen would occasionally wonder out loud if management knew what they were doing stocking so many passenger Savannas.

midasgold · April 1999

Thanks for the congrats. We should be bringing our Savana home today, G-d willing... finally!!!

midasgold · April 1999

Anybody know where to find a good hood deflector that fits the Express/Savana?

We're interested in getting one, not only to protect the front edge of the hood, but to hopefully help us discern where the front right corner of the van is during maneuvers. We drove our (well, almost our) Savana for the first time yesterday, and neither my DH nor I could see the front end of this beast from the driver's seat, even with the seat in its highest position!

mrh3108 · April 1999

Gieco has a catastrophic extended warranty that costs just a few dollars a month. I don't recall the details but you may want to give them a call and maybe even get a new insurance quote. You have to be insured with them to get the warranty. I believe the deductable was $150 or $250 per claim.

Their auto insurance rates are good if you qualify for the 5 yr. good driving discount.

Hope you enjoy your new van. We picked up an Express a while back and have no regrets--as long as gas stays under $2/gallon.

We didn't get either warranty (GMAC or Gieco). My philosophy is that if you self insure you'll make out in the long run. I'll only insure when I can't manage the loss such as life, health, homeowners, collision, etc. A $2000 transmission would be a bummer so I stayed clear of Chrysler minivans!

I also went with the cheap financing since we hold onto our cars till they drop. Mileage on our cars before the van purchase were 183,000 (a '90 Buick) and 223,000 ('88 Honda).

Since my Buick has been amazingly trouble free, and still does not burn oil, it helped me in my decision to skip the warranties when I purchased the Express.

midasgold · April 1999

Thanks for your views. I'm leaning against an extended warranty, but my DH is definitely considering going with the Iowa GMPP deal...I still have until the end of today to talk him out of it... ;-)

Re: high-mileage GM cars - Our '84 Chevy Celebrity wagon is also about to hit 160K. Since we now have teenagers, we plan to keep it as a 3rd car 'till it dies. It's nice to have for those extremely short cold-engine errands, to spare the new cars from the wear 'n tear of such "abuse." Overall, it's been a very reliable car, but has had some big-ticket repairs that we considered the better alternative to buying a new car. The (original) tranny is starting to slip ominously, though...

Well, we brought our Savana ("The Monster") home yesterday evening. :-) Couple of surprises:

1) The bench seats don't have the head restraints that I could've sworn were supposed to be there (on the two outside seating positions of each bench). I dug up the old brochures, and it turns out that only the '97 model had head restraints (at least I know I did see them somewhere, and haven't lost my mind!) - for '98 and '99, no head restraints! Is it because trucks are exempt from the requirement (if such a requirement exists) and GM cheaped out, or because people complained that they interfered with rearward visibility? Heck, they could have at least kept them and left us the option of removing them temporarily when not needed...

2) Where's the rear cargo-area 12V outlet? I could swear it was in the earlier models ('97 for sure, possibly '98). Did they cheap out on that, too?

Other than that, we're very satisfied, so far... though it drives like... well, like a truck! We also need to learn how to take right turns without making the back wheel go over the curb! Sheesh, and people want to buy Ford Excursions?! ;-)

jboater · April 1999

midasgold,

On the break even question, it was partly a guess-timate on my part. I assumed a loan of about 10K and I use an Excel spreadsheet to do what-ifs.
Given the 668. payment you referenced, your break even on 36 months would have been 5.00%. Sounds like a loan of about 15,500.

Jerry

jboater · April 1999

midas,
Scratch that last one. I've just executed a little GIGO, (garbage in, garbage out).
Break even @ 4.50 on a loan of 23000. for 36 months.

chickey · April 1999

I'm looking to purchase a full size high top custom van. How do I find what the actual cost to the dealer it is?

midasgold · April 1999

You got it, jboater! 23K was exactly the loan we were calculating.

midasgold · April 1999

chickey - Just look at the topics that discuss conversion vans. You might find what you're looking for there.

chickey · April 1999

thanks I'll keep looking. This is new to me midasgold

C13 · April 1999

Chickey, if you're still here, try this one:

http://wellengaged.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?f=0&c=Vans&t=26&q=71-88

That should turn up some results. There are some other topics too. I didn't check them all.

ernest · April 1999

Midasgold, I think I would take the figures from the Iowa dealer to my local dealer and negotate a lower rate. i think $50-$100 over cost would be quite reasonable - and maybe your local dealer's cost is even lower. If I couldn't get it for $500 or less, i would forego the warranty for the reasons most of the others gave.

Re. your front fender, you can buy lighted stalks that allow you to see where your limits are - if you can stand the "look". I would almost bet you'd hit the front bumper though, before you hit your fender.

Re. turning corners: Remember that your front wheels are almost at your legs, not 3 feet in front of you like in a car. So when you make a right turn, allow your front end to go out into the lane farther before cranking the steering wheel to the right. I have master this; however, my wife, who only drives the van occasionally, still has problems, judging by the scuff marks on the whitewalls after her use.

midasgold · April 1999

Yeah, I told our dealer's finance guy that I could get the same warranties for around half the prices he quoted. If you're interested, you can read the full story in the FWI conference, topic #10 ("Extended Warranties"), post #s 189-191.

Re: seeing the front-end - so THAT's what those stalk thingies are for! I think I'll pass... but I will go ahead and get a hood deflector; even if it ends up not being visible from the driver's seat, it will at least serve the purpose of deflecting whatever it is those things deflect. So far, I've found it at Performance Products (link from Edmunds) and Weathertech.

Thanks for the steering tip! The more we drive this thing, the easier it gets. I even *like* driving it now. :-)

How 'bout floor/cargo mats? The floor mats that came with the van are woefully inadequate, and there's no cargo mat at all. The van is less than a week old and the carpet is already dirty! So, 1) what's the best way to clean the carpet, and 2) has anyone found good floor/cargo mats that fit the Savana/Express (especially the deeply grooved kind with the big lip around the edge to catch spills)?

ernest · April 1999

Midasgold,
I have mixed emotions about hood deflectors. Some of the ones that seem to be painted on the reverse side and are shiny like paint on the surface and curve back over the hood somewhat look very nice. Unfortunately, I suspect that they are the least effective in deflecting bugs and stones, etc. Also, I suspect that they would hinder the throughness of an automatic car wash in getting to the place immediately behind the deflector.

On the subject of mats and cargo mats. I called one of those companies that advertise cargo mats in the back of auto magazines to inquire about mats for the Express/Savana. They do not make them - insufficient demand. Keep asking them though, and maybe they will start making them. For my old 86 Dodge van, I went to a local hardware store and got them to cut a measured length of commercial carpet runner for the middle aisle of my conversion van and for the rear. It worked real well and looked pretty good also. They are so reasonable(about $1.50-2.00/running foot about 4 feet in width)that you can toss them away when they get real dirty. You may want to check out that option.

ernest · April 1999

Re. the cargo mats, the Express van that I am ordering will only have three rows of seat; i.e., the front captains, and two rows of benches. Hence, I will have a lot of floor to cover. You apparently have another row of seats that I won't have. I only have 5 kids, so I need the room for bikes, packing etc. But it still might make sense to use the model cargo mat that you selected even if it doesn't cover the entire area. At least there will be a place for the "messy" stuff. Or, maybe, I'll find a carpet remnant and put that down and toss it when it gets soiled.

Re. floor mats, there are companies that make front mats for large vans. I have some in my 86 Dodge van. They have carpet inlaid in a rubber base and blend well and look good with the regular carpeting. The only problem is that they do not cover the wheelwell hump, so I try to keep my feet off of this. Unfortunately, other don't, however. I reverse the drivers side mat (front to back) to get more coverage where my feet are the most.

Re. covering the carpet with a plain rubber or vinyl mat doesn't make much sense to me, if I may be frank. In other words, why spend more for the carpet and then cover it with the stuff you would have gotten had you not spent the extra bucks for the carpet? The only exception to this would be the carpet mats or clear vinyl. My wife and I recently restored her 74 Chev Caprice convertible,which included the installation of new beige carpeting. We purchased lightweight clear vinyl mats so you could still see the color of the carpeting through the mat, and it looks quite good.

midasgold · April 1999

...True, we paid for carpet, but it was actually part of a package that we wanted, so we didn't have much choice. If we could have gotten the "premium" SLE trim line without carpet, we probably would have. (We like the non-SLE vinyl seats better, too, but had to accept cloth with the SLE - besides, the cloth seats come with armrests, while the vinyl ones don't - go figure.)

ernest · April 1999

Midasgold, On the carpets, just bear in mind that there are lots of good quality cleaning product now that work real well in cleaning carpets. And if they do get beyond a cleaning point, they can be replaced with pre-cut OEM carpeting, or if you prefer, black vinyl/rubber matting. But check out the clear matting. That's what we used with my wife's 74 Caprice convertible when we restored it. We replaced the carpeting and didn't want to cover it up so we went with the clear and it has worked well and looks nice.

On the seats, I was just looking thru the 1999 brochure for the Express Van and I am almost positive that the vinyl seats could be ordered with the higher option interior package, comparable to the SLE. I don't know why it would be different for the Savana. But, if you are a real vinyl/plastic lover, you can get clear vinyl seatcovers also. They are not very omfortable but they do save your seats from getting soiled.Check with an upholstery/seatcover installer.

midasgold · April 1999

Sorry, Ernest, but the SLE package limits the choice to cloth seats. Whatever... y'know, we could always replace the cloth with aftermarket *leather* - now how many cattle would it take to cover 12 seats? $$$$!!!! LOL!

ernest · April 1999

Midasgold, Now you're talking! But I'd be afraid that with twelve seats I'd get Mad Cow disease. Seriously though, I was kinda hoping that there would be a leather option on the Express/Savana. Of course there isn't. Prior to deciding to go with an Express, I was considering a Suburban in which case I was going to get the leather option. But I decided against the Suburban because it was too small for my needs. After discussing vans so much, I am getting excited about placing my order for a 2000. I am curious to know if they will be using the new Vortec engines that are being used in the 1999 trucks. I heard Suburbans are going to the new engines; but, I've heard nothing about vans. Either way, they are solid and proven engines.

C13 · April 1999

I've heard that the new pickup truck engines will not make it into the van line for a few years yet. Eventually the vans will start to use the new chassis and engines that are currently limited to the pickups.

I don't know that this is true. Just something a knowledgeable salesman (a friend; he wasn't trying to sell me anything) said.

midasgold · April 1999

Well, one thing's for sure: if this is the exact same 5.7L Vortec that was used in the pre-'99 pickups, they sure did an impressive job of stuffing it all under that eensy-weensy hood on the van!

It's hilarious! The hood prop is only about 6 inches long (well, maybe I'm exaggerating a little) - that's all that's needed to hold up the stubby hood. Inside, all you see are the plastic fluid reservoirs, which conceal the engine underneath and behind. All the fluid dipsticks and reservoir caps are neatly lined up right up front, which is handy. I pulled out the engine oil stick... and pulled... and pulled... and pulled... My Gawd! It must be 6 feet long!!! LOL! Not so easy to snake it all back in, let me tell you!

I was also wondering if the new 5.3 will find its way into the van. If it's dimensions are appreciably smaller than the 5.7's, I'm sure the extra room would be very welcome!

ernest · April 1999

Midasgold, What you describe about your van is pretty typical of most full-size vans. My present Dodge van has the same short hood, and long dip stick. When I change the plugs, wires, dist.cap etc., it must be done from the inside with the engine housing removed. Once you remove the cover, however, the engine is very accessible. This came in handy one day when I developed a bad miss and stalling and had to replace the plugs and wires and it was raining. I was able to work inside the van and avoid getting extremely damp.

C13, You are probably right about the engines. I was told that the chance of them making it in the same year as the Suburban (2000) was slim, but there is a chance. Afterall, there is no benefit to GM producing two separate lines of engines. I think the Ford Mustang got their new 4.6 liter V8 about a year after it was introduced on the full size cars. I guess I'll just have to take my chances.

I did hear mixed stories about the chassis, however. One was that the van was the first to employ the new techniques when they made a radical body change a couple of years ago. Then the truchs changed, followed by the Suburban (2000); but maybe I was being told something that the person thought I wanted to hear.

midasgold · April 1999

I usually don't bother to correct typos, but I can't live with myself for committing the egregious sin of typing "it's dimensions" with an apostrophe. That should have been "its dimensions."

midasgold · April 1999

Well, I think the chassis change in the '96 GM vans was a much more radical change than what they're now doing with the pickups and 'burbans. The old van was unibody. The Dodge is the only remaining unibody full-sized van now.

ernest · April 1999

Midasgold,
Are you sure about the Dodge being unibody? My 86 Dodge van has a frame from my view while performing oil changes. This would mean the Dodge went from frame to unibody, while GM went from unibody to frame??? Maybe GM felt they could make this move and still maintain structural rigidity, etc. by the use of "hydroforming". What's your guess? Usually, manufacturers don't move this radically in opposing directions.

midasgold · April 1999

Here's a quote from Dodge's website:

"Dodge Ram Passenger Wagons are built with stronger and lighter Unibody construction, instead of a body-on-frame design."

I was under the impression that the Dodges were always unibody, and haven't yet made a really radical change to their vans the way Ford did in '92 and GM did in '96. Dodge's van is still basically the same (except for cosmetic and other tweaks) as it's been since the early 70's. You may notice that they still don't have flush-mounted windows, while Ford and GM now do.

midasgold · May 1999

...Tell me about your rear wheel-well humps. You know: those rounded, carpeted protrusions on either side of the passenger compartment, under which the rear wheels reside.

On ours, both the right and left "humps" have depressions in them, like big dents. Are they supposed to be there, or did somebody stomp on them and sort of "crush" them, leaving depressions behind?

I just want to know of other vans have them, too - or if we should have our dealer take a look.

Thanks!

darlene2 · May 1999

I have a 1991 ford conversion van with 123,000 miles, how much is it worth?

ernest · May 1999

Darlene,
A lot depends on the condition and how it looks. If it looks real good in and out and the miles were probably a lot of long distance drives, my guess would be about $2-3K. Suggest going to an NADA guide (Conversion guides are harder to find) and look up a Ford factory passenger van. The value should be comparable.

wcub · June 1999

Does anyone have any experiences with full size Dodge cargo and/or conersion van brakes? I have a '95 cargo and a '96 conversion, and both vans developed warped front brake rotors after just a few thousand miles. The only remedy the dealer offered was to turn the rotors. This has been done twice on the '95 with 41,000 miles and now the '96, with 16,000 miles and rotors turned once, needs it again.

bboissoneault · June 1999

Our 97 jeep had the same problem, low milesand the rotors warped. Chrysler, like others uses a stamped/cast rotor to save weight. The problem is it does not hold up well. Go to your local discount car parts place and buy a pair of solid cast rotors, they will probably be from China. They cost about $28 and you can istall them with new pads yurself in a coupel hours. Godd luck

emale · June 1999

anyone wanna venture a guess as to why no one has developed a full size van with dual sliding side doors? it seems like a big market that is yet unexplored.

midasgold · June 1999

My guess is that, because the full-size van market is so small compared with the minivan market, there's not enough demand/competition for FSVs to have the kind of amenities that MVs have. This applies not only to driver's-side sliders, but to cupholders, rear-seat foldability/stowability, seat upholstery, power sliding doors, etc. Our new GMC Savana is wonderful, but it's one Plain-Jane vehicle.

It's kind of odd when you think about it... When you consider the popularity of family-friendly, feature-laden minivans, and the even greater popularity of the-bigger-the-better SUVs... you would think that a full-sized van would be the ULTIMATE HYBRID, wouldn't you? I mean, it hauls mobs of people AND towers over even the biggest SUV (I can look down at Suburban passengers' laps)... but it's sort of a neglected vehicle segment - ya know what I mean?

Of course, conversion vans are fairly popular, and (in addition to cargo/work vans) are the mainstay of the FSV market. Perhaps the Big 3 resist gussying up their factory passenger vans because that would eat into the conversion market.

stolbert · July 1999

I would think it would be handy to have dual sliding doors on large vans too, especially on a cargo van. I talked to a man in the car repair business and he said that it woud be expensive to add the 2nd door on a truck framed vehicle which is what a large van is. He told me that on a car frame, which most mini-vans are, it is much less expensive to add the 2nd door. Have you noticed that the Chevy Astro only has 1 sliding door and it has a truck frame. I hope this helps.

emale · July 1999

when i think about it, the main reason is that no manufacturer wants to plunk down the denaro to develop said vehicle. i'm sure it could be done with todays technology and computer modeling. i still think a full size van with dual sliders would be highly desirable.

ariel · July 1999

I agree that dual sliding doors are a great idea -wish I had them on my van.

I have a 1990 Dodge Ram Wagon (passenger van) and love it. We need to buy a second vehicle that can carry 7 or 8 people, and will probably get another new full sized van. I don't know which one to get. The problem is this - It is almost impossible to find reviews of FSVs. I read Edmund's reviews, and the few others I could find, but there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus about which passenger van is best - Ford Econoline, Dodge Ram, or Chevy Express/GMC Savana. I've also read this conference, and come to the conclusion that most van owners here don't have a Dodge. The Dodge is the one that I've been least able to find information and opinions about. Does anyone have any advice about or experience with the latest model year (1999) vans (Ford, Chevy/GMC, and Dodge)?

midasgold · July 1999

Well, our '99 GMC Savana 2500 12-passenger is already 2 months old now. Any questions?

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