From what I understand, the spoiler is port installed. I asked around a bit, and from what I found, there can be a "slight" variance based on the surface - the paint formula is the same, but when applied to a surface there can be slight variations. I'm going to check out some white VDC's on Monday and see what I find. I'll post then.
FWIW - due to the size of the tire's on the OB, it is very sensitive to road crown. To check out if it is "normal", try driving on a two lane road. Try the right lane first, then the left. If the road is crowned on both sides, you should notice that the car will react to the crown both times. If it still floats right when you're in the left lane, make sure you tell the dealer what you did when you drove it and where you did your test. That should eliminate a "standard" - it's the crown of the road response you might get because we do know that it can cause this feeling.
I did post that before. In '99's folks did not like the degree of engine braking for slope control so it was modified, but it wasn't eliminated and it is in our vehicles still. Most people don't notice it, but it does provide a positive benefit to those nasty downhills!
There is a gasket that comes with the kit, I cannot see any reason why they would not use it.
Regarding the wiring, when you remove the interior trim you can actually see the wiring harness, unless a complete doofus intalled your spoiler there is no way to hit the harness.
Juice book mark that site it is an excellent source of information.
I backed up the car a few feet up a slightly steep driveway last night and immediately smelled a very strong burnt odor inside the car. I had never smelled such burnt odor before. The car seemed to operate fine and the odor slowly disappeared with the windows down after awhile.
If it was clutch burn how could it be possible? I thought the whole clutch mechanism is tightly sealed. Where was the smell coming from? I'm wondering if some permanent damage has been done to the car.
so the trans. shifts down when you take your foot off the gas (as in coasting own a hill) and if you are in ,say, 50 mph traffic on a slight grade, you might repeat this cycle more times than you care to. how is this different than shifting D to 3? - steve-v
i used to have to burn the bajesus out of my clutch to get in my driveway (one foot elevation change + 5" lip) and my clutch has always smelled like that after you do it. Maybe it is a asbestos replacement or it is engineering to get you to change your diving habits. since my new clutch (warantee)i park on the street. Every once in while clutch burning should not be a real biggie. -steve-v
oh well if it keeps shifting 3-4-3-4-3-4-3-4 it's bad for the tranny. So putting the tranny from D-3 and leaving it in 3 for the duration of the small hills 50mph area will eliminate the shifts up and down commonly know as "hunting for gears" usually this happens on 4cylinder cars more than on 6 or 8 because of the smaller torque band of 4-bangers. Hope this helps.
I believe the downshift happens below a certain speed when going down a grade. I don't really notice it. I believe you also need to tap your brakes for it to downshift - not sure of this yet.
Boy, it's a shame that Subaru doesn't make side air bags and head curtains an available option on all of their Outback models. I'm going to buy a new car next summer, and the base Outback is near the top of about 12 cars I'm considering.
I like the concept of all wheel drive, the base Outback has a relatively well appointed and comfortable interior, and Subarus have pretty decent reliability. It's too bad you have to step up to the "Limited" line in order to get side air bags though.
I wrote a letter to Subaru last week about this, but I'm not sure if it will do any good. It's kind of a joke that you can get a Honda Civic with side air bags, but not an Outback. It's normally only about $450-$600 to add side air bags and head curtains as an option, by the way.
I know the Outback has side reinforcement beams, but the bags/curtains would still be a plus.
Anyway, I hope everybody is enjoying their Outbacks. They look like a lot of fun to drive, and I can't wait until next summer/fall when I get to decide which car I'm going to buy.
Next summer/fall? I can't wait for the first snow this winter!!!
BTW, Patti, when does the engine braking kick in going downhill? I have never felt any hold back in any downhill situation (H6). Also, my salesman told me Subaru discontinued the feature in 2000+ models.
Steve: FWIW, in side impact tests the Legacy got 4 stars for the front and 5 stars for the rear passenger, and they tested a model without side air bags. 9/10 is still an "A" in school, right? ;-)
Honda got 4/4 stars for the Accord with no side air bags. With the bags they managed 4/5 stars, but oddly enough the air bags are in front and the test results were better for the rear passengers. I'm sure it's sample variance, but even with the side air bags you are just as safe in the Subaru.
dervish: Yep, that's the clutch smoking. My OB does the same thing in certain "launch" situations where it might be tough to get going. From what I understand, the early 2000 model Outbacks had a really weak clutch that was prone to slippage, and they had to increase the force in the clutch pressure plate during the 2000 model year. I still think the clutch force is a little low compared to other cars I have driven, but it's such an infrequent problem I don't worry about it.
Steve: I have a base Outback, and it's a great car. Pricewise, I have always felt like it was a bargain, especially since you can buy one at or below invoice without too much haggling. With improvements Subaru has made over the last two model years and some of the standard equipment that has been added, the 2002 models are an even better deal than my 2000 was. I do agree that they should at least offer side bags as an option.
The subaru side airbags are not very big, not sure how much a a diff they make.
Curtians would be nice but hopefully they can have them from the top and not have to make the A or B pillars any wider. One thing I really like about the Subaru is the visibility, it is the best I have known.
Thanks. I didn't really take the time to compare test scores. Maybe I've been a little brainwashed by all of the safety info that's out there these days. I'm really starting to fall in love with the Outback, and I would hate to not buy the car next year just because it doesn't have side air bags.
I've been a cyclist for 11 years and am thinking about getting into kayaking next summer, so the Outback would be PERFECT for my lifestyle. It would be so nice to have a rear hatch that I could just pop open and toss all of my gear into. Even with a 4-door sedan, it's kind of a pain going from door to door getting all of my stuff ready for a bike ride.
I agree that the Outback is a great value. All wheel drive, ABS 4-wheel disc brakes, good crash test results, great visibility, above average reliability record, very comfortable power drivers seat, good handling, fun to drive...all at a very reasonable price.
I've been looking at a lot of cars (Camry, Accord, Volvo S40, Audi A4, VW Passat, Saab 9-3), but for some reason I keep coming back to the Outback. You guys are lucky that you have one to drive now. I've gotta wait for a bit more, but it will be worth it I'm sure if I end up buying one.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope you all get a ton of snow this year where you live! I've always loved driving in inclement weather. It's like a challenge to my driving skills. I'm the type of person who will go out and drive when there are 11 inches of unplowed snow on the road, just to test my driving skills (crazy I know, but fun...as long as you do it in a safe way).
I may be a little late, but I am going to weigh in, FWIW, with some thoughts about the OD (4th) vs. 3rd gear use on automatic transmissions.
There are some 'clutchless' manuals out there. The Porche Tiptronic comes to mind first. This is an automatic designed to be shifted manually. It is a purpose-built unit with heavy duty components. Valve body fluid pressures are high for fast, crisp, positive engagement of each gear, and there is adequate cooling capacity to keep the fluid temps in line. But few automatics could stand up to this kind of daily abuse. In general, it is best to put it in OD and let the engine computer direct the shifting.
However, there are times when some level of human intervention is beneficial. If this were not the case, the manufacturers would not give you access to anything other than a big "D" (no 3,2 or 1). Automatics have come a long way from the days in which shifting was determined by RPM induced fluid pressure, manifold vacuum and a kickdown linkage only. Electronics have controlled automatics for some 10 years, and today's engine computer management employs "fuzzy logic" (one form is 'grade logic') to provide a smarter shift pattern. Still, the natural inclination under light load is to upshift as soon as possible into high gear, even when it may be inappropriate for the road conditions. Fuzzy logic is NOT artificial intellegence. It is reactive to the situation, not proactive. It cannot see the upcoming hill when you are only doing 30 mph and downshift a gear, as you would do with a manual tranny.
I don't see any harm in helping on a hill, or even leaving it in 3rd *if* you are really going to be keeping the speed down. Many automatics are reluctant to down shift, and do begin to lug the engine as you slowly progressively push down on the gas. This is bad for two reasons: 1) The lugging sound and feel is harmonic frequencies resonating within the block. Like pinging, it is not something you want to happen repeatedly, or for long periods of time. 2) By the time it finally downshifts, you have pressed the gas pedal far enough to make the applied torque during the shift be much greater than necessary, which translates as wear. If you do shift manually, try to match RPM's as you would do with a true manual. That will help the torque converter and bands cope best.
The question of tranny temperature came up. The cooler for most automatics is buried inside one of the tanks in the radiator, so engine temperture directly affects tranny temp. That is why I view an engine temperture gauge as a must have item. Of my 10 previous vehicles, two had a tendency to run hot under load. Thermostat changes, flush, rodding the radiator, nothing helped. For those two I added an external Hayden transmission cooler. Also, change the fluid on time (including filter, & wipe out the pan of brass & steel particles). Change the fluid immediately if the car overheats. Otherwise, I don't think periodic and judicious use of a lower gear will drive temp or wear up too much.
Personally, I like the overdrive electric switch (used by Toyota and others) over Subaru's shift lever movement to select between OD (D4) and D (D3). My greatest fear would be to see someone accidentally overshoot D4 and into neutral, then pull back into D4. That can be hard on the tranny due to the sudden mismatch in appropriate RPM.
Bottom line: If you 'know' your car, some level of manual intervention will prevent excessive wear. If you are clueless, leave it in D4.
Sorry, I do not have the actual specs. and I'm not getting a lot of detail on this. It is still set up in the TCU (transmission control unit), but it shouldn't be easy to notice. From what I understand, the slope control has to do with the angle of the decline, combined with the speed of the vehicle. I'll try to get more information for you, but I figured you were due an update.
Steve, I agree for the most part with your analysis. I like having a physical 1,2,3,4 in my ATs though. Also the Subarus employ an automatic power-mode, this means the speed with which you hit the gas pedal dictates how quickly it shifts. If you slam down the gas, it will hold the gears to red-line. On older subies (pre 97) they had a "power" light that would illuminate on the dash when those shift ponts were moved by the tranny computer. I have such a light on my XT6 and my aunt's SVX also has it, on my Trooper there is a button to engage power mode moving the shift points higher. Funny thing on my XT6 is that there is no "1" position, you need to put the car in the "2" position and then hit a button to put it in "1" called the 1-hold button. I wish it had a "1" slot for when I auto-x.
In summary though, a judicious use of the "3" isn't harmful, but many people aren't judicious with it.
The Outback is a great vehicle for kayaking and biking. I recently switched to sea kayaking after being a pretty avid whitewater paddler in my younger days. No matter what type of paddling you do, the Outback seems to be an ideal vehicle. Plenty of room for gear, boats on the roof, and paddlers. As a sea kayaker, I'm usually on my own, but I can see how the Outback would make a great river shuttle for 3-4 boats, paddlers, and gear. Same goes for biking.
I did a combined mtn biking / kayaking trip last summer, and had the Outback loaded up with all my gear. It looked pretty cool. In the end, I think I was more excited about the driving than the kayaking and biking!
I also do a lot of skiing, and the Outback is again a great vehicle for that sport. Unfortunately, I did not encounter any serious winter weather in my ski trips to Virginia and West Virginia during 2001, and the roads were also clear when I was in Vermont December 2000. Talk about poor luck! Maybe I will run into some bad weather this season. My fingers are crossed! Who else but a Subaru driver wants bad weather??
It's one of those low volume playboats that does great endos :-) (do boaters even say "endo" anymore? - my C1 whitewater days are mostly behind me too, c_hunter - let's go boof one, eh?). Steve Host SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
I have to admit, I was at first reluctant to get between the two of you on this one (didn't want to attract any flaming....) :-) Sometimes my explanations are a bit long winded, but some of this technical stuff is not easy to explain without an overload on detail. You both seem like car guys, so the investment was worth it. May your transmissions live long.....
My 00 OB does this too (check my post #3041). It worries me enough that I am keeping a record of all the relevant posts and I mentioned it to the dealer for investigation at the last service, just so that it would be on record. They found nothing of course and I didn't expect them too as they didn't remove the clutch. But I have never smelled such a powerful burning clutch smell as a result of modest, deliberate slippage.
I intend to keep a very close eye (nose?) on this when the warranty nears it's end, maybe even having them replace it anyway and hope that when it comes out it will show excessive wear and I won't have to pay. Bit of a long shot, that.
And to Edmunds: Why, when I enter post 3041 and click GOTO, do I get post 2982? 3041 is not even on the same page.
My wife recently won a 2002 Outback in the HGTV Fall fix-up contest. We ended up with the LL Bean edition. It has been helpful reading this forum to find out more about Subarus (or is that Subari). We have never owned a Subaru but I was impressed with the test drive we got to take. We get the car on the 15th. I'm anxious to see how the car does in the Iowa winter. I'm looking forward to sharing my experiences in the Subaru ( when my wife lets me drive).
Some more data from the 2001 Road Trip in September (BC, Washington, Ihaho, Montana, Wyoming, Montana, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Alberta, BC, Alberta and finally BC again).
First a note on Montana Highway 212. If you ever get the chance to drive this route do not let it slip by.
It is the most spectacular road I have ever driven and that includes the east coast, the west coast and much of Europe. It is called the Beartooth Scenic Highway and is 64 miles/102 km and 3 hours, crossing via Beartooth Pass (the Indians call it Trail above the Eagles) at an elevation of 10,947 ft/3,640 m. I've never been so high without being in a plane. You seem to look down on everything in a 360 degree arc, and can see for bloody miles. It is higher than Mount Baker WA. There are high altitude lakes, jagged peaks, all kinds of rocks of many different hues and of course, the summit is pretty bald with no trees and in mid-September, a few bits of snow. Not to mention almost no RV's! We actually saw a guy stopped at the side of the road videotaping a bit of snow at his feet. Must have been from Florida.
You really notice the lack of oxygen at that altitude, even though we had been aclimatized to 6,000 ft for a week. Even trying to talk and walk simultaneously leaves you out of breath. And the car, although running fine, needed lower gears to get up the hills and did not have the power it normally had. Of course the trailer didn't help.
The H4 manual tows this load very well. I feel this is a well balanced rig. It is sure footed and very stable even on wet roads and loose gravel. I have not tried it in mud or snow. Once again, like last year, I found I could go through the bends faster than many tailgating SUVs, which would drop back through the bend and then race up behind me again on the straight. I would not want to have much more weight though...apart from the performance hit, which could be serious on steep inclines, I think there would be a good chance of heavy wear on clutch, brakes etc. Only had the burning clutch smell once, backing slowly up a steep incline with the trailer attached.
As you can see below, the fuel consumption was pretty good. Sorry about the imperial gallons (why can't the US use real gallons as well as real miles?).
CAR DATA 2000 Subaru Outback, H4 2.5L, 5 spd manual, pulling Jayco pop-up tent trailer, unloaded weight approx 1000lbs/455 kilos. Estimated all-up weight (driver, passenger, luggage and loaded trailer) 1600lbs/727 kilos
L per 100km, miles per Imp gal 9.8, 29 10.0, 28 10.0, 28 10.4, 27 11.1, 25 8.5, 33 9.2, 30 11.2, 25 9.4, 30 10.5, 27 9.6, 30 10, 28 11, 28 ------------- 9.9, 28.3 AVERAGE
The very low figures are achieved ascending mountain passes, and the highest figures when descending.
The digital camera used for Vol 1 is a Canon S100. The first 10 or so pictures are under exposed by one stop until I noticed the error. Ther first 70 or so pix were taken at 640x480 and the rest at 1600 x 1200. In future I will use the higher res all the time as they blow up nicely to full screen. But I only had 24MB of storage at the time. Now I have an additional 96MB card.
Vol 2 (scans from film) were taken with a Canon AE-1, 35-200 mm Soligor zoom and FujiChrome 100 slide film. The scans were done by London Drugs at their "consumer" resolution onto CD. In future I will use their "professional" resolution as I am not thrilled with these results. I used to use the Kodak PhotoCD process which was absolutely the best in the world (and expensive) but it seems to be discontinued now.
Goose, Nice Pics! The Bear Tooth pics reminded me of Trail Ridge Road that runs through Rocky Mountain National Park. "At its upper limit, Trail Ridge Road reaches 12,183 feet in elevation, higher than any other continuous paved highway in the United States." It stays at a high altitude for several miles and has some great vistas. The fee is Natl. Park entrance fee. It typically closes in October due to high winds and snow and re-opens by Memorial day weekend. I'm sure it's a bit more crowded than Bear Tooth, tho'. If you're out this way check it out, but watch out for elk (and tourists ;-). There are so many, they're almost pesky and if you're not careful, you might hit one. ;-) Cheers, Theo in Colo.
I have a 90 legacy wagon (which is a great car) that I'm thinking of replacing. Am debating between 02 CRV EX vs. outback. I really want a moonroof on the new car.
I think the dual moonroofs on the subaru are idiotic. I want to have the open space above me and not over the infrequent rear passengers. Besides, they are bundled into the $3000 more expensive limited edition.
I'm thinking of adding an aftermarket moonroof. My concern is that slicing a hole in the roof will weaken the structural integrity. The local ACS moonroof installer says he doesn't think Subaru changes the roof bracing for outbacks with sunroofs, so he is not weakening the roof anymore than subaru does.
Is he right? Does anyone know how I can verify his info? Thanks
I'm hoping to pick up my 02 OB today! Must be why I'm typing this in at this hour. Too hyped to sleep! Just for the record, I opted for H4 5 spd. The H6's that I test drove had just a little too much of that "electric car feel" for me. Would have jumped on the Bean if it came with the manual. Hey SOA how about sport tourer GT limited wagon with the H6-5spd or a sporty OB version ? Lots of friends that are in Audi's,VW's and Volvo's would have reconsidered their decisions. Can you happy owners tell me of anything I should look for when I inspect the car at delivery? I don't want to be a jerk, but I really don't want to take the car until everything works and looks like it's supposed too. The car it the basic AWP version in saphire blue. I am in central CT and wonder if folks around here put snows on, and which tire/size combination seem to work the best. I do about 10 highway, 7 twisty hilly rural miles each way to work.
Well, after 2-1/2 weeks with my '02 OB 5-speed, I'm happy to report it's a pleasure! Smooth, easy to drive - a great little runabout. The only SMALL issue is the steering wheel is slightly off center. I'd advise ob11 to check that out when he takes delivery. Otherwise, all is well. Just 2 questions for you experienced folks:
Has anyone swapped out the rather tinny sounding horns? They're right in front of the radiator, so it seems like it would be a snap. Any gotchas?
Also, as it nears it's first oil change (500 miles; I'm a fanatic), I'm thinking of using synthetic oil - especially due to the very cold temperatures in Wisconsin. Anyone (Patti?) have an opinion on using synthetic? 5W-30 is the recommended viscosity.
My Subie dealer recommended to change the oil to synthetic after a couple of oil changes, but not immediately on my VDC. They also recommended to go with synthetics immediately with the auto transmission, which I did. FWIW, I did my first oil change at 1000 miles and switched to Mobil 1 at 5000 miles.
So far, everything is fine. In my mind, the car is even quieter and smoother with the synthetics.
Sound like fun, goose. Glad to hear it performed well even at altitude with a trailer.
Betty: I have put an aftermarket ASC moonroof in my Forester. Among my friends and I, we've installed a total of 4 of them from Adler & Mandell in Rockville, MD, in various cars. None ever leaked or squeaked. They offer a lifetime warranty but none of us have needed it. I have a photo right here.
An ASC certified shop will know that they are doing. They had to remove the B-pillar brace on my Forester, but they add their own bracing to compensate. Mine is tight and rattle free. I paid $300 for a pop-up model, power ones were $900. It was $70 extra to cut the roof rails shorter and reinstall them.
I like the Outback, my dad has one. You get a longer warranty than the CR-V and the AWD is truly full-time. The new CR-V is a big improvement but they'll command full MSRP for a few months.
Chris: it's great that you are so excited. PDI (pre-delivery inspection) is key. Make sure you test drive the exact car you are buying. It should be a smooth operator, in every way (steering, handling, acceleration, shifting). The gas tank should be full, and they should air down the tires, which are shipped with lots of pressure to avoid flat-spots. Inspect the paint closely, the interior, in fact do not take delivery at night if you can help it.
Allright, another Dave. Lots of Daves among Subie owners. Yes, I changed the wimpy horn on my Forester. I used a Highway Blaster, which basically is a direct replacement, just screw it on. Make sure to get the low note, louder horn. They have high notes, which sound like the stock horn. I have a photo of that here. Click on the left arrow to see the "before" photo.
Let it break in before you use synthetic. I say 15k miles, but no matter what give it at least the full 1000 mile break-in period before going synthetic. You do need some friction for the piston rings to seal properly.
Congrats on your new Subies. LLBean for free - doesn't get any better.
David - I switched to Mobil 1 5W-30 at 10k miles (about a month ago). Runs great. It appears that some LLBean and VDC owners with the H6 switched to synthetics early (1k miles). H4 owners seem to switch at around 10k. Don't understand why. I would check with the dealer, but, recommend breaking in the engine first with dino.
Chris - As for winter tires (I live in East NY, by Danbury), I am waiting to see how the car does with the stock tires. My suspicion is that these tires with the AWD will be sufficient for our winters.
By the way, all you newbies please join us tomorrow night for our Subaru Crew chat. Follow the link above to the Owner's Club and then hop on the bandwagon. We usually get about a dozen Subie owners than can answer your questions in real-time! Plus you can share your impressions.
The horn on the Forester is behind the passenger side headlight, I'm not sure where the Outback's is. It should not be hard to find though.
Before delivery, ask if they installed the anti-squeak shims on the brakes. Subies have a squeak when backing up once in the morning. These shims are to prevent that for those who don't like the noise. I am choosing not to upgrade now as the noise does not bother me. Go over the car well as initial quality on Subarus needs to improve a little. Check all accessories for operation including the rear power outlet. Make sure you get the "rack tool" which looks like a phillips screwdriver and is used to move the cross members on the roof rack. My dealer threw in the first oil change free. Maybe you can ask for this. They are great cars - expect to have it a long time. Congrats and let us know how it goes.
inviting people to the chat since I have been soooooo bad lately at participating and feel I don't deserve to even mention it. Trying to get ready for our trip to Disney (driving) among other things.
Lots of activity this morning. How am I supposed to get any work done?
Chris (ob11): have fun with the new ride. I would focus on alignment, tire balancing, and brakes when you take the new car out for a pre-delivery spin, (in addition to a general lookover). Those are areas that needed attention on my Outback after I took delivery. You are going to love the H4/5spd combo, it's a lot of fun to drive. I agree, an H6/5spd would be awesome. I think it would make for a perfect GT wagon. I grew up in NW CT (Burlington), and we never bothered with snow tires. Recently, however, my parents put Blizzaks on their Accord and were very impressed with the results. In my opinion, I would say AWD probably gives you more than enough traction for 95% of the winter driving you will encounter up there in CT.
David: as others have mentioned, you should hold off with the synthetic until the engine has broken in and everything is seated. Depending on who you believe, break-in takes from 1000-15000 miles. If the off-center steering wheel bothers you, definitely have it corrected under warranty. It should be straight. For some reason, Subaru cannot seem to get cars aligned correctly at the factory.
Greg: I have never heard the brake squeak on my Y2K OB, and it's up to 22K miles. Wonder what the deal is? I would hope Subaru implemented the shim fix or corrected the problem for the newer model years, so it may be that Chris doesn't need to worry about this.
Speaking of worry, OCD has struck home. The dealer-installed pinstripes on my Outback are indeed crooked as a garden hose, and I will be pulling out the hairdryer this weekend to remove them. I can't believe I never noticed this before. Thanks for pointing it out, you bunch of nut cases! ;-)
Comments
Thanks!
Patti
Thanks!
Patti
Patti
Regarding the wiring, when you remove the interior trim you can actually see the wiring harness, unless a complete doofus intalled your spoiler there is no way to hit the harness.
Juice book mark that site it is an excellent source of information.
Cheers Pat.
If it was clutch burn how could it be possible? I thought the whole clutch mechanism is tightly sealed. Where was the smell coming from? I'm wondering if some permanent damage has been done to the car.
how is this different than shifting D to 3?
- steve-v
-steve-v
-mike
Greg
I like the concept of all wheel drive, the base Outback has a relatively well appointed and comfortable interior, and Subarus have pretty decent reliability. It's too bad you have to step up to the "Limited" line in order to get side air bags though.
I wrote a letter to Subaru last week about this, but I'm not sure if it will do any good. It's kind of a joke that you can get a Honda Civic with side air bags, but not an Outback. It's normally only about $450-$600 to add side air bags and head curtains as an option, by the way.
I know the Outback has side reinforcement beams, but the bags/curtains would still be a plus.
Anyway, I hope everybody is enjoying their Outbacks. They look like a lot of fun to drive, and I can't wait until next summer/fall when I get to decide which car I'm going to buy.
BTW, Patti, when does the engine braking kick in going downhill? I have never felt any hold back in any downhill situation (H6). Also, my salesman told me Subaru discontinued the feature in 2000+ models.
Thanks.
Ralph
Honda got 4/4 stars for the Accord with no side air bags. With the bags they managed 4/5 stars, but oddly enough the air bags are in front and the test results were better for the rear passengers. I'm sure it's sample variance, but even with the side air bags you are just as safe in the Subaru.
-juice
Steve: I have a base Outback, and it's a great car. Pricewise, I have always felt like it was a bargain, especially since you can buy one at or below invoice without too much haggling. With improvements Subaru has made over the last two model years and some of the standard equipment that has been added, the 2002 models are an even better deal than my 2000 was. I do agree that they should at least offer side bags as an option.
Craig
Curtians would be nice but hopefully they can have them from the top and not have to make the A or B pillars any wider. One thing I really like about the Subaru is the visibility, it is the best I have known.
I've been a cyclist for 11 years and am thinking about getting into kayaking next summer, so the Outback would be PERFECT for my lifestyle. It would be so nice to have a rear hatch that I could just pop open and toss all of my gear into. Even with a 4-door sedan, it's kind of a pain going from door to door getting all of my stuff ready for a bike ride.
I agree that the Outback is a great value. All wheel drive, ABS 4-wheel disc brakes, good crash test results, great visibility, above average reliability record, very comfortable power drivers seat, good handling, fun to drive...all at a very reasonable price.
I've been looking at a lot of cars (Camry, Accord, Volvo S40, Audi A4, VW Passat, Saab 9-3), but for some reason I keep coming back to the Outback. You guys are lucky that you have one to drive now. I've gotta wait for a bit more, but it will be worth it I'm sure if I end up buying one.
Thanks for the feedback. I hope you all get a ton of snow this year where you live! I've always loved driving in inclement weather. It's like a challenge to my driving skills. I'm the type of person who will go out and drive when there are 11 inches of unplowed snow on the road, just to test my driving skills (crazy I know, but fun...as long as you do it in a safe way).
Anyway, enjoy your Outbacks (I'm jealous)!!
There are some 'clutchless' manuals out there. The Porche Tiptronic comes to mind first. This is an automatic designed to be shifted manually. It is a purpose-built unit with heavy duty components. Valve body fluid pressures are high for fast, crisp, positive engagement of each gear, and there is adequate cooling capacity to keep the fluid temps in line. But few automatics could stand up to this kind of daily abuse. In general, it is best to put it in OD and let the engine computer direct the shifting.
However, there are times when some level of human intervention is beneficial. If this were not the case, the manufacturers would not give you access to anything other than a big "D" (no 3,2 or 1). Automatics have come a long way from the days in which shifting was determined by RPM induced fluid pressure, manifold vacuum and a kickdown linkage only. Electronics have controlled automatics for some 10 years, and today's engine computer management employs "fuzzy logic" (one form is 'grade logic') to provide a smarter shift pattern. Still, the natural inclination under light load is to upshift as soon as possible into high gear, even when it may be inappropriate for the road conditions. Fuzzy logic is NOT artificial intellegence. It is reactive to the situation, not proactive. It cannot see the upcoming hill when you are only doing 30 mph and downshift a gear, as you would do with a manual tranny.
I don't see any harm in helping on a hill, or even leaving it in 3rd *if* you are really going to be keeping the speed down. Many automatics are reluctant to down shift, and do begin to lug the engine as you slowly progressively push down on the gas. This is bad for two reasons: 1) The lugging sound and feel is harmonic frequencies resonating within the block. Like pinging, it is not something you want to happen repeatedly, or for long periods of time. 2) By the time it finally downshifts, you have pressed the gas pedal far enough to make the applied torque during the shift be much greater than necessary, which translates as wear. If you do shift manually, try to match RPM's as you would do with a true manual. That will help the torque converter and bands cope best.
The question of tranny temperature came up. The cooler for most automatics is buried inside one of the tanks in the radiator, so engine temperture directly affects tranny temp. That is why I view an engine temperture gauge as a must have item. Of my 10 previous vehicles, two had a tendency to run hot under load. Thermostat changes, flush, rodding the radiator, nothing helped. For those two I added an external Hayden transmission cooler. Also, change the fluid on time (including filter, & wipe out the pan of brass & steel particles). Change the fluid immediately if the car overheats. Otherwise, I don't think periodic and judicious use of a lower gear will drive temp or wear up too much.
Personally, I like the overdrive electric switch (used by Toyota and others) over Subaru's shift lever movement to select between OD (D4) and D (D3). My greatest fear would be to see someone accidentally overshoot D4 and into neutral, then pull back into D4. That can be hard on the tranny due to the sudden mismatch in appropriate RPM.
Bottom line: If you 'know' your car, some level of manual intervention will prevent excessive wear. If you are clueless, leave it in D4.
Steve
Patti
stevem327: given your hobbies, I'd get a wagon. Among the cars you are considering, only the Outback, Volvo V40, A4 Avant, and Passat come as wagons.
-juice
In summary though, a judicious use of the "3" isn't harmful, but many people aren't judicious with it.
-mike
I did a combined mtn biking / kayaking trip last summer, and had the Outback loaded up with all my gear. It looked pretty cool. In the end, I think I was more excited about the driving than the kayaking and biking!
I also do a lot of skiing, and the Outback is again a great vehicle for that sport. Unfortunately, I did not encounter any serious winter weather in my ski trips to Virginia and West Virginia during 2001, and the roads were also clear when I was in Vermont December 2000. Talk about poor luck! Maybe I will run into some bad weather this season. My fingers are crossed! Who else but a Subaru driver wants bad weather??
Craig
-juice
Cheers!
Paul
Steve
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SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Steve
I intend to keep a very close eye (nose?) on this when the warranty nears it's end, maybe even having them replace it anyway and hope that when it comes out it will show excessive wear and I won't have to pay. Bit of a long shot, that.
And to Edmunds: Why, when I enter post 3041 and click GOTO, do I get post 2982? 3041 is not even on the same page.
And to Edmunds: Why, when I enter post 3041 and click GOTO, do I get post 2982? 3041 is not even on the same page.
I have encountered the same problem - I have passed the word up the chain and we'll see if it can be fixed.
tidester
Host
SUVs
Congratulations on your good fortune and welcome to the boards! Be sure and get your wife to sign up too.
We're looking forward to hearing about your experiences!
tidester
Host
SUVs
Congrats, and rest assured you paid the lowest price ever for your Bean! :-)
You take delivery on the same day as our Subaru Crew weekly chat, so pop in and let us know how you like it, OK?
-juice
First a note on Montana Highway 212. If you ever get the chance to drive this route do not let it slip by.
It is the most spectacular road I have ever driven and that includes the east coast, the west coast and much of Europe. It is called the Beartooth Scenic Highway and is 64 miles/102 km and 3 hours, crossing via Beartooth Pass (the Indians call it Trail above the Eagles) at an elevation of 10,947 ft/3,640 m. I've never been so high without being in a plane. You seem to look down on everything in a 360 degree arc, and can see for bloody miles. It is higher than Mount Baker WA. There are high altitude lakes, jagged peaks, all kinds of rocks of many different hues and of course, the summit is pretty bald with no trees and in mid-September, a few bits of snow. Not to mention almost no RV's! We actually saw a guy stopped at the side of the road videotaping a bit of snow at his feet. Must have been from Florida.
You really notice the lack of oxygen at that altitude, even though we had been aclimatized to 6,000 ft for a week. Even trying to talk and walk simultaneously leaves you out of breath. And the car, although running fine, needed lower gears to get up the hills and did not have the power it normally had. Of course the trailer didn't help.
The H4 manual tows this load very well. I feel this is a well balanced rig. It is sure footed and very stable even on wet roads and loose gravel. I have not tried it in mud or snow. Once again, like last year, I found I could go through the bends faster than many tailgating SUVs, which would drop back through the bend and then race up behind me again on the straight. I would not want to have much more weight though...apart from the performance hit, which could be serious on steep inclines, I think there would be a good chance of heavy wear on clutch, brakes etc. Only had the burning clutch smell once, backing slowly up a steep incline with the trailer attached.
As you can see below, the fuel consumption was pretty good. Sorry about the imperial gallons (why can't the US use real gallons as well as real miles?).
CAR DATA
2000 Subaru Outback, H4 2.5L, 5 spd manual, pulling Jayco pop-up tent trailer, unloaded weight approx 1000lbs/455 kilos. Estimated all-up weight (driver, passenger, luggage and loaded trailer) 1600lbs/727 kilos
L per 100km, miles per Imp gal
9.8, 29
10.0, 28
10.0, 28
10.4, 27
11.1, 25
8.5, 33
9.2, 30
11.2, 25
9.4, 30
10.5, 27
9.6, 30
10, 28
11, 28
-------------
9.9, 28.3 AVERAGE
The very low figures are achieved ascending mountain passes, and the highest figures when descending.
Bob
great pics, btw. what kind of camera(s)?
-Brian
Bob
Vol 2 (scans from film) were taken with a Canon AE-1, 35-200 mm Soligor zoom and FujiChrome 100 slide film. The scans were done by London Drugs at their "consumer" resolution onto CD. In future I will use their "professional" resolution as I am not thrilled with these results. I used to use the Kodak PhotoCD process which was absolutely the best in the world (and expensive) but it seems to be discontinued now.
Cheers, Theo in Colo.
Brett: you lucky dog! Congratulations! Since that is the car I lust after, I will be interested in hearing your feedback.
Craig
I think the dual moonroofs on the subaru are idiotic. I want to have the open space above me and not over the infrequent rear passengers. Besides, they are bundled into the $3000 more expensive limited edition.
I'm thinking of adding an aftermarket moonroof. My concern is that slicing a hole in the roof will weaken the structural integrity. The local ACS moonroof installer says he doesn't think Subaru changes the roof bracing for outbacks with sunroofs, so he is not weakening the roof anymore than subaru does.
Is he right? Does anyone know how I can verify his info? Thanks
Has anyone swapped out the rather tinny sounding horns? They're right in front of the radiator, so it seems like it would be a snap. Any gotchas?
Also, as it nears it's first oil change (500 miles; I'm a fanatic), I'm thinking of using synthetic oil - especially due to the very cold temperatures in Wisconsin. Anyone (Patti?) have an opinion on using synthetic? 5W-30 is the recommended viscosity.
Thanks,
David
So far, everything is fine. In my mind, the car is even quieter and smoother with the synthetics.
Just one data point,
Mike
-Brian
Betty: I have put an aftermarket ASC moonroof in my Forester. Among my friends and I, we've installed a total of 4 of them from Adler & Mandell in Rockville, MD, in various cars. None ever leaked or squeaked. They offer a lifetime warranty but none of us have needed it. I have a photo right here.
An ASC certified shop will know that they are doing. They had to remove the B-pillar brace on my Forester, but they add their own bracing to compensate. Mine is tight and rattle free. I paid $300 for a pop-up model, power ones were $900. It was $70 extra to cut the roof rails shorter and reinstall them.
I like the Outback, my dad has one. You get a longer warranty than the CR-V and the AWD is truly full-time. The new CR-V is a big improvement but they'll command full MSRP for a few months.
Chris: it's great that you are so excited. PDI (pre-delivery inspection) is key. Make sure you test drive the exact car you are buying. It should be a smooth operator, in every way (steering, handling, acceleration, shifting). The gas tank should be full, and they should air down the tires, which are shipped with lots of pressure to avoid flat-spots. Inspect the paint closely, the interior, in fact do not take delivery at night if you can help it.
Allright, another Dave. Lots of Daves among Subie owners. Yes, I changed the wimpy horn on my Forester. I used a Highway Blaster, which basically is a direct replacement, just screw it on. Make sure to get the low note, louder horn. They have high notes, which sound like the stock horn. I have a photo of that here. Click on the left arrow to see the "before" photo.
Let it break in before you use synthetic. I say 15k miles, but no matter what give it at least the full 1000 mile break-in period before going synthetic. You do need some friction for the piston rings to seal properly.
-juice
David - I switched to Mobil 1 5W-30 at 10k miles (about a month ago). Runs great. It appears that some LLBean and VDC owners with the H6 switched to synthetics early (1k miles). H4 owners seem to switch at around 10k. Don't understand why. I would check with the dealer, but, recommend breaking in the engine first with dino.
Chris - As for winter tires (I live in East NY, by Danbury), I am waiting to see how the car does with the stock tires. My suspicion is that these tires with the AWD will be sufficient for our winters.
Good luck,
Greg
The horn on the Forester is behind the passenger side headlight, I'm not sure where the Outback's is. It should not be hard to find though.
-juice
Greg
Greg
One more thought - if the alloys came with wheel locks, make sure you have the lug nut adaptor.
-juice
Chris (ob11): have fun with the new ride. I would focus on alignment, tire balancing, and brakes when you take the new car out for a pre-delivery spin, (in addition to a general lookover). Those are areas that needed attention on my Outback after I took delivery. You are going to love the H4/5spd combo, it's a lot of fun to drive. I agree, an H6/5spd would be awesome. I think it would make for a perfect GT wagon. I grew up in NW CT (Burlington), and we never bothered with snow tires. Recently, however, my parents put Blizzaks on their Accord and were very impressed with the results. In my opinion, I would say AWD probably gives you more than enough traction for 95% of the winter driving you will encounter up there in CT.
David: as others have mentioned, you should hold off with the synthetic until the engine has broken in and everything is seated. Depending on who you believe, break-in takes from 1000-15000 miles. If the off-center steering wheel bothers you, definitely have it corrected under warranty. It should be straight. For some reason, Subaru cannot seem to get cars aligned correctly at the factory.
Greg: I have never heard the brake squeak on my Y2K OB, and it's up to 22K miles. Wonder what the deal is? I would hope Subaru implemented the shim fix or corrected the problem for the newer model years, so it may be that Chris doesn't need to worry about this.
Speaking of worry, OCD has struck home. The dealer-installed pinstripes on my Outback are indeed crooked as a garden hose, and I will be pulling out the hairdryer this weekend to remove them. I can't believe I never noticed this before. Thanks for pointing it out, you bunch of nut cases! ;-)
Craig
-juice