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Ed: I think Greg did consider the Forester, but the backseat is about as roomy as the Impreza, so I can't imagine it was any better for his son.
Greg: congratulations on your decision -- the CRV is a fine vehicle. The 2002 model is much improved over earlier versions and I was glad to see they finally gave it enough power. I commend your color choice too, though I was somewhat turned off by the seat cloth "graphics" when I looked at a CRV a few weeks ago.
One thing about Hondas -- the seating position (low seats, arms and legs out) and low beltline give the interior a nice open and airy feel with a great view. After owning 3 Hondas though, I actually appreciated the more "upright" seating of the Outback. I do agree with you about the impaired view out the Outback for tall people, however. At 6-1, the view is barely OK for me, and I can see how it would cause "ducking" for someone who's 6-3.
Let us know how you like the CRV when it comes in, and good luck managing your excitement -- I know it's not easy waiting for a new car.
Craig
c_hunter - I am replacing a 92 prelude and considering outback wagon and crv! Just when you think you are original!
I am considering BOTH the CRV and the Outback and it is a tough choice. And I agree that it boils down to the interior.
Dollar for Dollar I think the CRV is a better deal at $22,000 than the other car I am considering - the LL Bean Outback for $28,000.
I've owned Hondas and Subarus (1979 Wagon) before and both are good cars.
On the CRV you gain a more functional interior and I would have to give Honda the edge in reliability and resale over Subaru. Being 6 foot 3 I appreciate the extra interior space.
The Subaru LL Bean outback has a richer interior (leather) with more features. BUT it does give up space in all but the driver's seat. Of course the big appeal of the LL Bean is the H6 and the all time AWD. Plus it has a quiet highway ride. A fairer comparison would be the H4, cloth seat outback which is about $23,000.
One thing I find in common with all Subarus is that the front PASSENGER seat is very CRAMPED in the legroom department. Just had a ride in my friends Forrester and it is the same story there -- even with the passenger seat all the way back there is very little room to stretch out my legs riding shotgun. Most of the time I would be driving but at times when the wife would take the helm on a long trip with me in the car I think I would be uncomfortable there.
Anyone else notice the lack of front passenger leg room on Subaru designs?
It may explain why Subarus seem to be more popular with women than men -- since women are generally smaller the smaller interior is less of an issue.
I also had a 1996 Outback wagon with automatic and now have a 2001 LL Bean. The legroom in the 96 might be an inch better.
I dislike both the old 96 and 2001 passenger seat legroom. On the drive side, my left leg cannot extend far enough to rest comfortably on the dead pedal and I find it rubbing/leaning on the door panel. It becomes annoying after 15 or 20 minutes.
I bought the car based on the 96's bulletproof record and overlooked the legroom issue. No other nits to pick.
Any help would be great. We could probably get the same deal just about anywhere but I want to go back to the same dealer for service too. If Tristate gives us a great deal, we might have to buy it there but service it at Mountanview (only 1/2 an hour away). Has anyone had problems with getting service at a dealer where you didn't buy it? I guess that depends more on the dealer than anything... We just moved here and so far I've had a hard time finding a good Audi dealer (the Outback is for my wife).
Thanks in advance! Hopefully I can be an active participant here soon (I'm also on Audiworld if any of you are also fellow Audi owners). The AWD owners have to stick together, right?
-Jason Boswell (Bozzy)
tidester
Host
SUVs
Joseph (nowakj66): if you are coming from a Prelude, I think you will appreciate the Outback's handling over the CRV. I drove a CRV back in June 2000 when I was shopping around, and it felt like it was going to tip over on curves compared to the Prelude. Talk about night and day!! I later drove the Forester and then the Outback, and both handled great -- a happy medium. Not as good as the Prelude, but much better than the CRV (SUVs in general). I was reminded about the benefit of Subaru's car-based handling when test driving an Acura MDX recently. If handling and secure cornering are important to you, this is one area where the Subaru vehicles have an edge in my opinion.
You are right that a fairer comparison is between the base Outback and the CRV. They are about even in equipment levels, cloth seats, engines, etc. My first Outback was a base model, and I have always considered it to be a bargain for what you get. Another factor to consider is that you can get the Subarus for close to invoice, which knocks the price down another $2000 or so.
Regarding reliability, I was surprised to learn that Consumer reports rates Subaru on par or higher than most Honda models (this after being a Honda owner for many years). In terms of resale, Honda is probably better, but Toyota, Honda, and Subaru are all very good.
Craig
As for Honda CR-Vs being tippy feeling -- I was discussing the very same issue with my Honda dealer. He also came from a Prelude to a 2001 CR-V and had to get used to the tippiness.
The 2002 CR-V is of course an all new body style and they have addressed some of these stability issues via a wider track, longer wheel base and lower center of gravity.
I have not driven the original CR-V but the 2002 felt firmly planted. Kind of like a tall Civic.
That said I PREFER the Subaru Outback as a vehicle because it is not trying to be an SUV stylisticly.
I just may be pushed to a CR-V (on the low end of price) or a Toyota Highlander (on the high end) for a more roomy interior.
CR-V has aced reliability scores, but keep in mind the warranty is horrible - 3/36 with no roadside assistance. All Subies are above average and have a 67% longer powertrain warranty, plus free roadside assistance. I am considering an Odyssey and this is a huge factor in my decision.
Subarus have a great balance in many areas, like packaging/content, price/value, performance/efficiency, reliability/warranty, plus there's the full time AWD.
Having said that, you should consider all your options and choose what fits your needs best. The CR-V does have a versatile and roomy interior, but since space has become a high priority for me (2nd baby on the way) I may be pushed into a minivan.
-juice
I've been reading Subaru owner comments all over the web avidly for the past week during my decision-making process - yesterday the decision was made & this afternoon I'll be picking up my 02 LL Bean (Wintergreen - yum)! I know I'll love the car. I hope I don't rue the $$ spent. Especially since the Legacy GT was my second choice - near the bottom of the line or near the top of the line - go figure.....
It was the 3.0H6 that won me over. If only that was available w/o all the bells & whistles!
I've had Yakima racks for years, several different vehicles, so I have the bar & all the accessories (mostly kayak) I need. Is there any reason to go w/ the Subaru towers, as opposed to Yakima? Is the Subaru bar different? I believe (correct me if I'm wrong here) that Yakima makes the Subaru product? Any difference in quality/price, etc?
Oh, & speaking of bells & whistles, I do have another question. I may need to duck for this one. It's about that LL Bean badge..... Has anyone removed theirs? Any advice on how to do that w/o leaving a mark? Maybe I'll learn to live with it, but honestly, there are very very few advertising products I'm willing to endorse by wearing them, and advertising on my vehicle is.....well......let's just say I'd rather not.
Thanks to the PTB for providing such a great space for sharing of info!
Jillian
The bottom of the line is actually the Legacy L, but even that is very well equipped (comparable to most competitors' mid-line models).
-juice
No ducking necessary...my badges were gone the evening I brought the vehicle home!
Take a strong thin string (ie: waxed dental floss) and pull it tight...get it started under the lip of the decal. Once you have slipped it in there far enough, you can actually use your nails to start plucking it off. Any risidual sticky stuff (there shouldn't be any, but in case there is) can be removed by spraying some WD-40 on it and wiping with a soft cloth. This is done only after the decal/badge is removed. If you look on the photo gallery forum, you will see my wintergreen 01 bean with my 02 console modification!
Good luck....and congrat's on your choice of vehicle and color!
-r
-juice
For most decals and glued on badges, the easiest method of removal is a hairdrier. Aim it at the badge and slowly pull back. The glues are usually hot melt.
Remove any residual glue with WD40 on a rag and then wash off. Other glue removers that are very effective without hurting the paintwork are Citrus Oil (sold here as glue remover) or Eucalyptus Oil. The latter allows you to smell like a Koala for free and give your Outback the Real Aussie smell!
Cheers
Graham
Cheers!
Paul
Phill
I now inform the dealer at purchase that if I see any of his nameplates at delivery the car stays on his lot.
Cheers Pat.
Ken in Seattle
Yes, Yakima makes the Subaru rack accesories. At one time, we had access to a Subaru dealer in TN that sold the Subaru badged stuff for less than you'd pay for Yakima, but now you pretty much get the best deal with the Yakima stuff (especially if you have your own crossbars). I bought a set of 4 Yakima "Double Cross" towers for $110, and used my old crossbars, lock cores, and the rest of my kayak and ski attachments. The Double Cross kit comes with new end caps for your cross bars.
I just checked the Yakima website and noticed two things: 1) the Double Cross is now priced at $115 (some of their web pages incorreclty list it as $155), and 2) they have a new mount called the Low Rider which looks a little more compact (also priced at $115).
Craig
I'll go to the local sporting goods store (where my friend works
Thanks.
Mayme Grim
You can reverse the license plate holders and use them as frames for the front plate.
Mayme: Sears has good ones, and the new ones are black and much better looking than the X-Cargo models. I've also seen carriers at Trick Trucks and at Pep Boys, so check local auto and truck parts stores. Both places even offered installation.
An LL Bean 5 speed would be sweet. It would even cost about $800 less. I hope Subaru at least goes to a 5 speed automatic soon.
-juice
And so far I LOVE this vehicle! Can't wait to actually GO somewhere with it!
Jillian
Thanks!
Ted: go ahead and flush the ATF again. It's due for it anyway. Make sure the shop has one of those machines that forces new ATF in, and sucks the old stuff out. That gets all the old, contaminated fluid out.
Let's hope that helps, it's certainly the cheapest thing to try. A rebuilt tranny would run probably about $2 grand.
-juice
Cheers!
We have the dog barrier and it works great. Our Cocker Spaniel would surely jump over the back seat and try to sit with us up front if the barrier wasn't there. She likes to sleep on her bed in the back when she's not busy barking at 18 wheelers. My wife is thinking that we should buy a dog car harness and have her restrained with a rear seat belt for her safety. If we do that we'll need to cover the leather seats so her claws won't scratch the seats.
Vince
Greg
Someone had trouble inserting/removing tethers into the restraints on their wagon - here is my technique: insert the clip upside down - towards the back of the car, so that after it rotates around to the right angle, the spring and opening are facing down. just reverse to remove - no fighting.
-steve-v
santa cruz
this was towing up and over the coastal range 30mi/1200' 50 mph curves -the car did GREAT! it was happy with 50mph up and 45 down. breaking was heavy but not bad. I don't want to have to doit again (not prudent as they say) but possible.
-steve
Most tow ratings can safely be exceeded by 30-40%, engineers like to build in safety margins. I just finished towing a 5000lb trailer 350+ miles from Pittsburg to NYC with my trooper which is rated at 5K towing. I was doing 75mph up and down the hills of PA. I figure I could probably exceed it if needed but like you said you don't want to do it often.
-mike
Hockey stick hooks? These guys know their buyers.
-juice
purchased Winter Wheel package from TireRack (Blizzaks on steel wheels=$600 incl. shipping).
Arrived in four days: just in time for the Northeast's first nasty road event of the season (last Saturday).
Installed all four in less than 30 minutes, while the snow and freezing rain were falling, using only the OEM jack (and my trusty clicker torque wrench: the OEM lug wrench is only suitable for prying lids off of paint cans, provided they're not too sticky).
Drove to the grocery store for emergency-Christmas-cookie-baking-supplies by order of my wife and daughter. Only a few other cars in the parking lot: half of them were Outbacks!
Report: not so much as a twitch of slippage! Those Blizzaks are everything promised: they held the road like velcro even on slick turns. No major increase in noise or loss of ride comfort that I can (yet) discern. After struggling through two winters with the OEM tires (Wilderness) I KNOW for a fact I wouldn't have made it there and back without a lot of white-knuckle cursing.
Recommendation: If you live in snowy climes, BUY THOSE WINTER TIRES! In the end they're free! Yup, FREE! Figure it like this: In 8-10 years you'll go through at least two sets of tires. But with winter tires you'll be dividing the wear between the two sets and may not need to invest in any more before you trade up for that 2008 Exiga. The $200 for the steel wheels will reduce the cost of maintenance and possible replacement from salt-corrosion on your alloy rims; so consider that a wash as well! And the bonus is that you won't have to pay the deductible for all those winter accidents you'll now be avoiding. Oh, why did I wait so long. Don't be a fool...save yourself before its too late!!!
Oops, I let alittle Jacob Marley slip in there,
Have a very safe and festive Christmas,
YetAnotherDave
I'm sure the snow tires are awesome. Nice price.
-juice
-juice
Any newbie tips I should know about? Like, for example, are those snow tires desperately needed? So far, the OEM's seem to grip pretty well.
TIA,
Jason B.
The only newbie tip I will pass on is to check your tire pressure whenever the seasons/temps change, and make sure you either go with the recommended 30F/29R or slightly higher pressures to your liking, being sure to maintain that 1psi difference front to back (it evens out the rolling diameters so the AWD can sense slippage correctly). Otherwise, just go out and have fun with the car -- they are great for that.
As for your tire question, it induces a chuckle from me, not because it's funny, but because it reminds me of the Potenzas I had on a Honda which were laughable in the snow and rain, especially when they wore down some. I can't comment on how the 2002 Outback tires will perform in snow, since I rarely see any of the whitte stuff in VA. But if the Outback's Potenzas are anything like my Honda's, then I wouldn't expect too much. The Wilderness tires on my 2000 Outback were OK in the snow, but not anything great.
As Dave Peterson noted, good snow tires make a huge difference (on any car). if you get a lot of winter weather (as I did when I lived in MA) it might be worth the investment. Based on my experience with Blizzaks on a FWD car, I know the Outback would be awesome with those tires. They improve winter handling and braking immensely.
Craig
Craig - I was not aware that keeping the tire pressure in the back 1 PSI lower helps with slippage detection. Can you explain more?
Greg
Greg
After picking it up my wife and I went on a mini 4 day ski vacation and on the way there spent one night at a campground. We put our skis and some gear in the new ski box, and some bags in the passenger seat. We then inflated a couple therm-a-rests and slept in the back with the seats folded down. It was very convenient and quite comfortable. I'm 6'2", so I put my feet up between the front seats for part of the night and then kitty-corner for the rest. It was slightly below freezing during the night, but it was fine with sleeping bags.
Craig
-Brian
Now I have the psi @ 35F/34R. Like the handling better; and the ride, not much different from 32F/31R (tires = Michelin MXV4 Energy).
-Dave