Subaru Legacy/Outback

grahampeters · February 2002

G'day

In Australia we refer to people who use their foglights when unnecessary by a special word - "plonker". It carries approximately the same connotation as the English suggestion that the driver wears his shirt tucked into his underpants. Definitely uncool and the sort of behaviour which inspires other road users to cast dreadful hexes upon you, generally of the variety that puts you backwards into a mudbank a mile down the road.

Cheers

Graham

tshin99 · February 2002

What is the torx driver for the roof rack?

-tom

wmiller4 · February 2002

I only use them in foggy or snow storm weather. I have found they give
snow covered ground more detail when driving through a snow storm at night.

If you have fog/aux lighting on, you should switch your fogs off when you are
approaching other cars on the road like you would switch off your high beams.

paisan · February 2002

I also replace the 55w H3 bulbs in the fogs with 100w H3s

-mike

red927 · February 2002

I only use them in inclement weather or on very dark roads. They do help a little. My wife always has the fog lights on in her GT. She thinks that she sees better but I'm not sure and I will not correct her.

tshin99 · February 2002

The Subaru dealer told me that on the LL Bean edition, the only factory installed add-ons were the 6 Disc in-dash CD thing and the spoiler. The rest (like the dust deflector) were after market add-ons and I'd have to talk to the parts department to have them installed. Is this true?

Also, anyone have any recommendations for accessories that they've added on to their OB?

thanks,
tom

armac13 · February 2002

Thanks for giving me yet another reason to like Australia.
:-)

Ross

goosegog · February 2002

Every jurisdiction has its own rules but here in BC I don't think you can use fog lights all the time. I believe in the "be seen" mantra that was first applied in Sweden and later here. Back in the 70's & 80's many studies (some by the provincially owned insurance company in BC that everyone had to use) indicated that accidents were reduced if motorcycles and buses were required to use headlights whenever moving and so that was required in BC. I drove around in daylight with my fog lights on (but not the other lights in order to prevent me accidently leaving the lights on when parking). However although buses and motorcycles were required to have their lights on, Muggins here got a ticket for having fog lights on when not driving in "fog or falling snow".

Somehow I doubt that the BC Road Traffic Act has since been amended to allow fog lights at other times, although federal (and provincial?) law requires all cars from 1990 model year to have DRLs.

So I only use the fogs if I'm driving in fog or falling snow which happens about twice a year, and even then the so-called fog is pathetic compared with the pea-soupers wot I experienced many times in Britain. On those occasions the only safe mode of transport was walking because your really could only see about 10 feet. Crossing even a two lane road was bloody dangerous. You learn to use your ears. And it's quite frightening to get so totally and completely lost about a mile from the place you grew up and lived in for 23 years, that you just park and wait for a cop car or bus to come along and follow. There would be almost no other traffic under those conditions.

The low position and flat wide beam of a fog light is designed to prevent glareback and as someone pointed out can also be useful on dark, windy, narrow roads to "see round the corner". But of course the headlights stay on too (who's brilliant idea is this?) thus negating most of the benefit of the fog lights. So in my opinion building them into the car is simply a design fad to make the car look "butch" and turning them on is usually a waste of electricity and serves only to annoy others.

I'd guess that within a few years most cars will have the fog lights built right in to the headlight assembly and the macho "front covered in lights" trend will go away.

Nowadays there are so few cops around that I doubt that anyone would get a ticket for using fogs, same as they don't for having the (illegal in BC) blueish accessory driving lights or headlights. Not to mention the van I saw the other day with BRIGHT BLUE brake lights and turn signals at the rear!

Grahampeters: "Plonker" - I love it, it's been a long time since I heard that.

c_hunter · February 2002

As far as I know, all the options can be added at the factory -or- the dealer (or by the owner in most cases). My Bean came with the spoiler, cargo net, and rubber floor mats. Other cars I looked at also came with things like the 6-CD changer, the dust deflector, rear liftgate bar, and differential protector. Having installed the CD player and a few other goodies in my previous Outback, I know these things don't have to come from the factory. The Bean is fairly well equipped to begin with, so all I have added is the hood deflector (helps quite a bit on this car).

Craig

ccampbell4 · February 2002

When I bought my 02 OB in December, I was offered the option of buying the extended warranty. I think it was around $600 or so. I'm usually not one to buy those on any product, because I beleive they wouldn't offer them if they thought they'd lose money on the deal. If THEY are banking on the product not breaking down, then why wouldn't I? I was just wondering what you guys thought.

fibber2 · February 2002

Wow, how did I get so far behind! 150 posts in 2-3 days....

I installed the Subaru hitch on my '02 OBW as my dealer was willing to match Internet prices. But beware that you get the right one. Seems that the '00-'01 uses a slightly different kit from the '02, and I got to go thru it twice as I was originally given the wrong unit. The Subi kit is well done. It fits snug, has end caps to reduce tube rust, etc.

Some comments:
1) It took me 2-3 hrs as it takes some mental preparation to do the required cutting for the bolt passthru and the exhaust clearance region. The assembly is heavy, and working alone I had trouble with getting the alignment correct when feeding the bolts thru the frame to the welded-in nuts. In fact I did begin to cross-thread one and had to spend some time filing threads to fix the damage. My metric tap & die set didn't go up this far, so I had to do the cleanup with a thread file. Put a bit of light oil on the threads to help get them started more easily.

2) The tush end of the OBW is high, placing the center point of the receiver a good 15" off the ground. This is comparable to some pickups. The tong on the stock draw bar is too short to allow for flipping it over and using it in the 'step down' position, putting the base of the ball at close to 17". If you buy a landscappers type drop-down gate trailer as I did, you will need to buy a Reese 1.25x1.25" class-II bar to lower the ball height. Write back if you need me to find the P/N.

3) As stated, the interface module converts separate turn signals to American style 1157 taillamps found stock on most trailers. It also avoids ckt loading which could affect directional and hazard light flasher performance, as well as the 'bulb out' sensor system that would wonder why there was an extra few amp draw on the line. It is also an excellent safeguard to the car's electrical system as a whole, were you to back the trailer wiring into water on a boat ramp, puddle, etc.

What to do when putting this on a model without the required 10 amp feed? Do regular Legacy models have the rear power outlet? If so, pick up the power there.

Steve

p0926 · February 2002

tshin99- The torx driver is the special tool you need to remove the cross bars from the roof rack. It should be in the glove compartment. Re options, if they're listed here on Edmund's, then they can be factory installed. Sounds like your dealer just wants to sell you a car currently on the lot (and make a bigger profit by selling you any options at full retail plus labor!).

-Frank P.

bkaiser1 · February 2002

Thanks for the update...I've been thinking about putting a hitch on my OB, too, and was looking at the DrawTite Class-II hitch from eTrailer.com for $90. Their estimated install time is only 40 minutes, so it's nice to hear how grossly optimistic they are BEFORE I start, rather than after. I was given the impression that there was no cutting involved, though, and it was a straight bolt on procedure...is this correct? How much cutting did you need to do for the OEM hitch? Perhaps the DrawTite is slightly different? Hmmm...it sure is a hell of a lot cheaper than Subaru's hitch (about 1/3 the price). Thanks, Brian

fibber2 · February 2002

Cutting is required in a few places on the OEM hitch kit, but less so on the aftermarket. Here's the deal:

The OEM attaches to the body in 4 spots. Two are at the existing tow hold-down slots, and the hitch replaces these with two new tongs just slightly below those points. The other two are barrel shaped supports that extend up into holes in the frame rails, allowing a maybe 8" bolt to extend up to a pair of welded nuts on the upper side of the frame. The stock vehicle bumpers have a long underside skirt that covers these, so a 1.5" (?) hole saw must be used to cut thru the plastic to open the access spots. There are markers molded into the plastic for alignment of the pilot bit on the hole saw.

Step two: I like the OEM design because it really hugs the body and is much less visible. It goes 'up' over the exhaust, rather than down below it like the aftermarket. But here again you must cut two (?) squares of underside bumper plastic away to make the required clearance. A good 'snap blade' knife did the trick.

And finally, you have the lighting interface which is made to fit and already has the spare tire well grommet attached.

BTW: I found the drawbar info: Reese P/N 06280 - basically identical to Subaru P/N L1010FS030 but with a longer tab that allows for installation with a 0.75" rise or 1.25" drop.

Steve

fibber2 · February 2002

As well stated by a number of posts, the fog lights factory installed on most cars seem to do little or nothing for poor weather visibility. I did adjust them upward slightly to broaden the pattern, but they are still basically for show.

I have installed driving lights (distance) on several cars, but put them on a relay to only work with the high beams. I never use them unless I am alone on the road. Why do so many people use them with low beams - insisting on their right to see, while blinding me in the process??

Steve

subaru_team · February 2002

I love the word "plonker". I think I'm going to try to use it at least once per day!

Patti

p0926 · February 2002

Patti- As in: "The Subaru crew on Edmund's are a bunch of plonkers" ??? ;-)

-Frank P.

sibbald · February 2002

You are quite right about the use of actual yellow fog lights being illegal in B.C. unless the conditions require them.

The auxiliary driving lights, or as you called them "butch" lights are of course not illegal. I also agree that people who use them during the day and on clear nights, IMHO, need to get a life.

On the other hand, I would not recommend driving with the blue accessory front or rear lights. I know many tickets are written because the police feel quite possessive about being the only ones who are allowed, under the Motor Vehicle Act, to display blue lights.

Cheers,

Tom

rsholland · February 2002

A "Plonker" is someone who tucks his shirt into his (or her) underware.

Who wears underware??

Bob

kturner1 · February 2002

Call me crazy, but I do think there is something wacky about the Soob dipsticks. My theory is that oil gets up into the tube when running and fouls up the readings even with a pull/wipe/dip/pull/check procedure. I check my oil first thing in the am before starting up when things have settled down.

aps5 · February 2002

They tried to sell us the extended warranty on our 02 Bean, along with "etched glass in case of theft" from almost $2200 down to $450.
The catch was that we'd save $100, and the price would go up in March, if we bought when paying for the car, instead of thinking about it. We realized that our previous sube OB sport went 120k miles with only routine maintenance. Forget the warranty. These cars go the distance.

Andy

paisan · February 2002

One A/C Compressor goes or the Tranny and you are looking at recouping the $1000 Subaru Gold Warranty in one sitting. They are good cars but mechanical items do break.

-mike

taubate · February 2002

A while back, I mentioned about a rattling noise that happened during cold starts. Suspected that it was piston slap. A couple of respodents also brought up belt tensioners. Here an update...

The more I listened, the more the noise resembled ticking, rather than rattling, and it only happened during acceleration.

Had a good friend who is an engine expert come take a test drive. Also showed him the service bulletin that showed the use of mechanical valve lash adjusters. Verdict: valve lash adjusters noise. The gap was caused by metal contraction in cold weather. No big deal.

Thanks to those who provided their input!

p0926 · February 2002

Bob- Not I... While I do wear underwear, I'm having a difficult time with the mental picture of a tupperware form of plastic underware.

-Frank P.

p0926 · February 2002

mike- If the odds were in favor of your A/C compressor or tranny going then sure, an extended warranty would make sense, but then Subaru would be broke paying off the claims. Obviously this isn't the case so statistically speaking, you're better off passing on the extended warranty and self-insuring.

-Frank P.

rsholland · February 2002

paisan · February 2002

My dad has the gold warranty, and it has already paid for itself. On his Legacy L he has had done:

rear axle boots
struts
engine seals
lights behind the dash
speakers

all in the post std. warranty period. If the AT tranny goes, you are looking at $3-$4K that alone is worth the $1K price of admission for the Subaru Gold Warranty.

-mike

p0926 · February 2002

mike- The operative word here is IF. I'm glad for your dad but surely you'll admit that he's the exception rather than the rule. If getting a extended warranty gives you peace of mind, then go for it. I'm just pointing out that statistically speaking, you're better off self-insuring.

Of course statistics mean nothing to lots of people. That's why millions buy lottery tickets every day.

-Frank P.

bkaiser1 · February 2002

I appreciate the hitch-input!

paisan · February 2002

$1K v. $3-$4K in my book is worth it. Maybe me and my family is extra hard on our cars or the NYC roads toss them a beating but in general I've found that every extended warranty I've bought has paid off at least 60-70% of it's value in repair costs. I usually get mine exteneded to 100K bumper to bumper. The littlest things can be quite expensive. But YMMV.

-mike

PS: There is no such thing as self insuring, at least not for me, I'm not going to take the $1000 and save it, it would go for mods!

ochssk · February 2002

I noticed subaru sells both an acrylic hood protector and a vinyl (bra) cover (full or hood only). Anybody have thoughts on which would be better for protecting the car?

jamessubie02 · February 2002

Does anyone know when the 2003 Subaru Outbacks will be available in the US? Wondering if I buy an 02 now or wait. Also, anyone aware of what the differences will be? Thanks!

James

scubadvr · February 2002

Hello all,

In lines with the earlier statement on verifying that one receives the torx driver for the roof rack when the car is delivered, I am curious as to how many received the valet key. I did not, and am hoping this won't be an issue when I go back to the dealer requesting one. Has anyone had to buy one of these keys? Does anyone ever use these keys?

Thanks,
Colin

hypov · February 2002

I carry them with me as a spare in lieu of the other master. There's no value added with a valet key if you have a wagon. The only thing it doesn't do is lock/unlock the glove compartment. According to the manual, you're suppose to receive 2 masters and a valet, and the dealers aren't suppose to sell you the keys that originally comes with the car.

-Dave

hammersley · February 2002

Late again...
If my headlights are on, generally my fogs are too... not necessarily to see, but to be seen better.

Cheers!
Paul

armac13 · February 2002

do you really think that is they can't see your headlights they will be able to see your headlights + fogs?? You little old plonker you.
:-)

Ross

rsholland · February 2002

...And today's program is brought to you by the word "plonker." (with apologies to Sesame Street)

Bob

fibber2 · February 2002

My mother is British, and I spent some months of my early years in Wembly Park. I do remember being dressed with outer & undershirt tucked into underpants....

Steve

fibber2 · February 2002

Steve,

I have the Subaru acrylic deflector, and am very happy with it.

Steve

bkaiser1 · February 2002

I've always had vinyl bras on my cars and love them...many people think that the fabric backing will sandpaper off the paint over time, but that has never been my experience. So long as you take the time to remove the bra at least once a week and *keep the car waxed* there shouldn't be any trouble. I have never experienced any fading/scratching with any of my vehicles, and I am super anal retentive about my car's paint quality.

Having said that, I HAVE seen cars that weren't properly cared for that were faded/scratched etc as a result of using a vinyl bra. I like the acrylic deal for the hood because it can stay on all the time, but it leaves the bumper exposed and that's the surface that REALLY feels the brunt of the sanded roads here in the winter.

It's up to you they both have merits and weaknesses.
Brian

mrk610 · February 2002

I only drive with my fog lights on when fog or rain/snow . I have the acrylic deflector ,Afraid that the bra will rub the paint due to I have the dark blue color wagon. I got both the master and valet keys when I bought my car . I still have not heard from my dealer about my engine noise ,so i called SOA today and started my own case .I still think it's tensioner due to the fact that I can't hear any noise while its idling. Patti glad to hear your over the stones .

mike k
P.S Nascar is back Woo Hoo.

herbruss · February 2002

I tend to agree with Paisan on the extended warranty. Got one with my VDC, specifically because it was the first year for the engine, VTC, VDC, and host of other things. One look at the number of sensors and electronics was enough.

The best argument against a car bra I've seen was an old boss who broke a strap on the LeBra on his 911. He was doing 70 or so when it broke. The bra whipped around, snagged the drivers side mirror and broke it off. It then beat the living heck out of the car with the mirror before he could stop. Definitely an air freshener moment for him. Damage was quite extensive. The humiliation at work was worse.

I like the 3M Chip Guard. Had it on a truck around the wheel wells and after 5 years it was still tight and inconspicuous.

fibber2 · February 2002

I am still on the fence on this one. Bought the OB this past September, and picked up the Honda Odyssey this past weekend. I am more inclined to get one with the Honda as the warr is only 3/36, and for $875 I can extend that to 7/100 with $0 deductable. I will probably at least break even on that one. The Subi is less of an edge. Best I could find was 6/85 (gold plan) with $50 ded for $695. Considering that the powertrain is covered for 5/60 already, there is less of an exposure.

Historical Data: I bought it on my first 3 new cars ('79-'87) and lost money. I skipped it on the next two cars, and had expenses that would have put me ahead by a reasonable margin. Leased the next 3, so no longterm data. Now back to buying, and not sure what to do....

Steve

cptplt · February 2002

heres my experience on my 3 legacies
92 LS wagon - didn't get one, spent over $700 on the stupid pneumatic suspension system the LS had, may have been other things which would have been covered too but I can't think of any other big ticket items. Got rid of it after 6 years and 100K as I had a sense things were going to start happening.

92 L sedan, got an aftermarket warranty , however the oil seals went after that ran out at 75K .also needed two sensors - again out of even the extended warranty, some other stuff I would have loved to have gotten fixed too which I won't however splash out on like an inoperative power mirror on the passenger side

98GT wagon - got the Subaru gold with no deductible at 2/3 "MSRP" for 6 yrs/100K - have had a new radio antenna, front oil seal (they did the timing belt too - "damaged from being covered with oil" - more like they were too embarrased about having to take almost 3 days to do the seals that they charged SOA for the timing belt!!!), replaced HVAC lights (not really supposed to be covered apparently). So far saved almost $700+. I also have an A/C leak which will probably need fixing this season, they suspect a valve behind the dash is the culprit, several hours labor to get to it and a extended warranty covered item. I am going to make money on this warranty!

I also have a warranty on my wifes 00 Venture (which has stunned me by being absolutely faultless for 30K!) and 00 Windstar but then the Ford is a true piece of potential junk - we had a 95 which had the famous transmission and head gasket problems! If Ford hadn't bribed me with $4000 and a better trade than any half intelligent non Ford dealer would give you and 0.9% I wouldn't dream of getting another Windstar (and certainly not one without an extended warranty! -1800 for a rebuilt tranny and 1200 for the head gasket in the 95! plus there was the self ejecting spark plugs!)

jimmyj1945 · February 2002

I have never bought one. Have always tried to buy reliable vehicles (Honda-Nissan-etc). Now buying a Subaru and never thought about buying an extended warranty...Until now. These post have me thinking maybe I should! This will be my first Subaru. Are they as reliable as Honda and Nissan? Is an extended warranty needed? Should I really buy a Subaru? Now you really got me thinking....

Jim J.

p0926 · February 2002

Jim J- Take a few deep breaths and get a grip. All Subaru's are at least above avg in reliability. They are easily as reliable as any Nissan and close to Honda's bullet-proof reliability. Read thru the thousands of posts in Subaru related topics here on Edmund's and you will find very few problems listed. Go ahead and get an extended warranty if it gives you peace of mind. Just remember that manufacturers wouldn't offer them unless they made a net profit and by all accounts, extended warranties are a cash cow for everyone who sells them.

-Frank P.

jimmyj1945 · February 2002

Thanks. I really am logical and know what you are saying is right. Just went off the deep end for a moment. I feel better already.

Jim J.

cptplt · February 2002

they are cash cows which is why you should always be ready to negotiate them down, if everyone paid "MSRP" for the manufacturers warranty, it would be like everyone buying a car at MSRP. I think a good deal is at least 1/4 to 1/3 off list price and I know some people have even gotten better. You also do not have to buy it from the dealer you purchased the car at.
When I got my Subaru one in 98, I did so several months after I purchased the car and so it wasn't rolled into the financing but SOA at that time let you spread the payments by credit card over a year.
I came from a Honda family but my own experience with an Integra and my wifes experiences with a Civic and Accord have not been great, on par or a little worse than the Subarus - things rarely went bad before 60K on the Subarus, my Integra was a piece of junk after 30K, - though my wife claims it was the way I drive! The Civic must have been built on a Canadian holiday
Both makes are far better than the VW Scirocco and Audi Coupe and 4000 we have also had. I will never ever buy a VW/Audi product again.It wasn't just the problems which were many, it was their whole attitude and esp with the 4000 which we bought when we were overseas and brought back to the States. Their claim that US spec models sold to military /diplomatic customers overseas would be treated when back in the US like one sold in the US market was a farce. Yes, they always met their obligations in the end, after about a week or two of my dealer having to make dozens of calls to their HQ with the car sitting there unable to run. This was in the 80s , their product and service may be a lot better now but they lost this customer for good.

winkiebark · February 2002

Thanks to all for the helpful input on hitches and towing. I like the Draw-Tite product that I see on the etrailer site. They list a wiring harness that uses a t-one connector that plugs into the Subaru's wiring system. I have seen suggestions on the boards as to where to look for such a connection, but so far have had no luck in locating it. Has anyone used this product that might know where the plug-in is located on the Subbie? thanks

mortpeaberry · February 2002

the wiring connector is in the tire well for the forrester, and behind the passenger qtr. panel on the legacy. If you take the floor out of the back area, then you can get access to the side panel, many push in retainers and a few screws behind the access panels - no pics yet - Maybe I can take some today.
If the harness is there (it's there) If not, well...
go slow and good luck
this msg will self distruct...
steve-v

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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