77k miles is a lot, but check how it was maintained. Did they do the 30k and 60k services and keep receipts? Have they changed the brake pads, battery, tires (maybe more than once), and timing belt?
For you and for Piglet, I recommend a full service so you have a good reference point. By that I mean:
* oil and filter change * fuel fitler * O2 sensor * PCV valve * air filter * alignment * spark plugs and plug wires * timing belt (if not already done) * accessory belts * radiator flush * new wiper blades
If the hoses for the cooling system look old (cracking, soft, or discolored), I'd do those too.
Basically, that's a 60k service, and you should be set for the next 3 years or so (except regular oil changes). Modern Soob engines can last a long, long time.
and came up with a retail value of $11,200 while Kelley Blue Book showed a retail value of $20,000. I have no idea which one is correct (or if either of them are?). In smart shoppers there is a "REAL LIFE TRADE IN VALUES" topic in which a car salesman tries to give people an idea of what cars are really worth (as opposed to book values).
I was the third post on this discussion way back in November. I leased a new O.B. in Dec. It was a std.wagon with the auto tranny, like the person who posted that their father doesn't drive like "Mario" I don't either. Although it not a "pocket rocket" the performance isn't much different than my "98 Mountaineer with the V-6. It did take a bit to get used to the brakes. The main reson I leased this vehice was our family needed a vehcile to travel safely in during the winter as my son is on a traveling hockey team. At the last test drive we actually brought his goalie gear to the dealer to see how it would fit, no sweat with enough room for our suitcases on road trips. We have now taken a couple road trips. The ride, handling make it really fun to drive, especially after driving SUV's for the last 16 years. It also has the best heater of any vehicle I have owned. I have gotten a lot of compliments on the wagon especially on the Wintergreen color. I have been really impressed after having it for a while now with all the subtle things I have discovered. Also the fit and finish are much better than I expected after driving domestics all these years. The only thing I wish it had was the engine from the new WRX. Great car!
Actually I would tend to disagree that NADA is the dealers only choice. After calling on dealerships as a manufacturer's rep. before joining Edmunds.com, I have found they use all three KBB,NADA and Edmunds.com as a basis for their pricing matrix. However in this case I would agree with Juice and the middle ground of all three would probably be most accurate.
However, they sweat it the most when you bring in KBB or Edmunds.com quotes!
armac13 - You know your demographics! It was indeed a Richmond school...holding its sports day in Burnaby.
kmclean - I think you are mistaken about no light for the second press. Mine lights for every press. But you are right about the second press having to be much more deliberate (longer duration). I think, after reading your post, that the sticky lock syndrome may be the problem. By the way, I don't think I'd want to put your Maxima transmitter under my chin - it would probably explode my fillings.
sibald - Increased radio range is normal where there are less obstructions such as buildings, cars, lamp posts, etc. Over water is best but you may not want to try this with a car. For example, if one goes out in a boat just a few miles from the west coast, here in Canada, it is easy to pick up San Francisco AM stations on any radio.
goettsd - I wondered about this too. If I ask, of course the person on the other side denies it. But I usually try to unlock before they are actually standing there trying to get in.
Purchased my L.L.Bean wagon 11/2000. Runs great, love the extra power but have one problem, squeaky brakes, loud and annoying whether car is cold or has been running. First told this noise was "normal". Dealership then supposedly adjusted the breaks but problem still persists as before. Has anyone else had this problem. Plan to take car back to the service dept. and if that doesn't help will contack Subaru Cust.Serv.
I have a 2001 BB Lad that is a little over 3 months old with about 7K miles on it. I love the car and really have no complaints other than the brakes squeaking when I first start out in the morning and the windshield. Granted I live in Colorado where they use sand on the streets when it snows so craked windshields are not all that uncommon. However in just 2 months, I have 3 long cracks in the windshield. I had my other SUB for 5 years and had no cracks. Is it just a luck or could the windshield have been improperly installed or maybe it is just cheap? Has anyone else had this problem?
I'd be more inclined to believe the $20k. Your best bet is to look on used car sites like traderonline.com and see what others are selling their Outbacks for. Check out newspaper listings as well. You should try to match the individual sellers, which is less than the dealer usually. The price is what the market will allow.
You could be right about a light flash for every button push. I'm certain pushing the lock button more than once does not produce a second flash (assuming the first press successfully locked the vehicle). I'm less certain about the unlock cycle. Note that mine is the fob that comes with the factory-installed security system (which is a bit different from the other fob if I recall from my reading of the owner's manual), AND I've disabled the horn beep during lock/unlock, so perhaps there's some effect there.
I'd run out and check it right now, except the boss and the kids took the O/B for its first-ever trip into the snow today (Stevens Pass, Washington) to go skiing. Had a BUNCH of snow up there last night, so this will be her inaugural drive with AWD in snow and ice. I expect she'll be impressed with its performance. I had to collect a bunch of chits last spring to get the O/B rather than a Sienna (to replace the previously mentioned Caravan - which, by the way, has not been replaced at all as my teenage daughter "adopted" it for her use). I'll get to drive it in the snow in a couple of weeks as we head to Mt Bachelor (Oregon) for a ski week.
Phill3 - I'd guess you just had a defective or improperly installed windshield - although there's a very slight possibility that your O/B's unibody could have been damaged somewhere along the line and is exerting undue stress on the glass. Not likely, though.
Update - The Donnelly mirror I installed last summer continues to function flawlessly - and, during cold weather, the temperature readout displays "ICE" on start-up whenever the temperature is 37 degrees or lower. Cool! Or is that a "Duh!?".
Well, time to go wash the old Caravan to ensure some blue paint still exists under the dirt.
Who makes the sound system for Outbacks? I was at a Subaru dealer today trying to decide between the Outback and the Forester. The Outback had a CD player that costs $360. I can get a great CD player/tuner for less than that. Any thoughts on that?
I asked for input several weeks ago on the dealership in Ogden, Utah; I appreciate the answers from several of you out there. Today I completed the sale on a '01 Outback wagon and wanted to pass on my experience for anyone that is considering a purchase within the Wasatch Front area. I initiated my purchase with the "Web Manager" at Ogden Subaru, Dave Gilbert. At no point in the transaction was I subjected to the dreaded experience of car shopping. My inquiries were answered professionally, my dignity left intact and the offer that I made in good faith (based on Edmunds research, naturally!) was accepted with no rebuttal. I truly feel that I engaged in a win/win situation with Dave and the dealership. I can only hope that my relationship with the service folks goes so well. I would highly recommend Ogden Subaru, I was pleasantly surprized by the entire process. Oh yeah, I absoulutly love the Outback! Ciao...
The reason your post said "2001 BB Lad" may be that you ran the spellchecker on it.
No, I really mean it. Stop laughing ;-)
Weird, eh? If you go to your Preferences you can enter words to make a custom spelling list for yourself, which should fix it. Me, I just leave the busted spelling in there, and never touch the "Check Spelling" button.
Just bought a 200l OB. Love the car, but have a few questions. The brakes squeal when ever I back up the car. The dealer told me this is normal. Anybody have any experience with this? Can you tell me if this is trully normal? Also, notice "buzzing" sound which appears to be coming from under the dash. It appears to be some type of vibration. Haven't asked dealer about it yet. Also, had upgraded security system put in. It will not allow me to use my key without setting off the alarm. I have to use the remote. Is this normal? Sorry for all the questions. I don't have much faith in dealers.
snap: see if you can wear a layer of the brake pads off. Hard braking in reverse may do that (make sure you have plenty of room). Sounds like your pads are glazed over.
Phil: that's the spell check.
Your windshield ought to be covered by insurance (in most states anyway). You have the heated base so insist on an OE unit.
ckfreund: aftermarket stereos are cheaper, even compared to invoice.
Lynne: see my reponse above. Yours may just need time to break-in the pads/rotors.
The buzz is harder to trace, so I'd let the dealer look at that. Could be an improperly installed air filtration system, so you have that?
Use the keyless! :-) It's easier and prevents scratches on your new car.
I test drove an LL Bean this weekend. It was sweeeet! (keep in mind I'm comparing it to my '94 Jeep Cherokee). The engine was very smooth and quiet! I had a hard time even telling if the engine was on while standing next to the hood. I tested it on a steep highway hill that my current Jeep, with a V-6, has to be floored to accelerate up. The Subaru took it very nicely! I had to look at the speedomoter to see that I was already going 70mph just halfway up the hill.
Now, if Subaru would just put the H6 engine in a 'non-premium' package. Here in Colorado, Subaru offers the 'Rocky Mountain' edition/package. Cloth seats, but heated and with power driver's seat, the nicer sound package and interior features, no moon roofs, but has the bug/rock deflector and differential protector. A really nice package for the money and put together for what Coloradans want - now, if it just had the H6 in it...
Phill3 - you should know that by living in Colorado, with gravel instead of salt spread on the roads, that cracked windshields are a way of life. Maybe the aerodynamics of the Subie hood 'channels' more rocks right at the windshield. Do you have the bug/rock deflector on yours? The deflectors (on any car) do make a difference, because they change the aerodynamics over the hood and windshield. On my Cherokee, I've had windshields that lasted 3 years, and I've had a couple that only went 2 months before a crack(s) appeared. There's been more snow this winter here than the last couple of years, so there is more sand and gravel on the roads this year compared to the last 2 or 3 years. On the other hand, if the crack started at the edge of the windshield, there may be a pressure point there between the frame and the window, which may imply an improperly installed windshield.
Kris: wow, they use gravel? I would've thought they used sand or something else.
The H6 will likely make it into the Outback Sedan for 2002, then onto the other Legacy models and the ST-X for 2003. That's the impression I got after chatting with some Subaru reps at the Philly show.
It makes sense - the Outback outsells the GT and L combined 3 to 1. Also, all these are US-built, while the Forester and Impreza come from Japan. That also means the Forester is more likely to get a turbo than an H6.
Hi, Everyone. I'm new to all this. Haven't owned a car in over 20 years, and now my wife and I are pretty much set on buying a used Outback wagon. As I understand it, the newer design started in '95 and our local dealer here in Brooklyn just got one in. My current question: in one or two of the discussion groups, there seems to be some question whether the engine in the '95 Outback wagon is powerful enough. We will be driving mostly city, with once or twice a month out of town. Will I notice this as a problem? Will it feel (with two small kids in the back) that the car does not have enough oomph?? I haven't seen the car yet, but he tells me that it's automatic with 79K mileage; his price, $8,500. If we like it (later this week), we're inclined to go for it. Or, would we really be that much happier going for a '98, say, at twice the price (such as we've seen)? Thanks for opinions. Jason W.
It had 135 HP. I have a '97 wagon with the 2.2 that I think has enough power (for me)(mine has a 5 speed though). Try it yourself to make sure. Watch the guys on this board though, they tend to really like the power.. in fact, I'm sure that someone will eventually write in and complain about the WRX HP (I could only do 0-60 in 6 seconds... I was hoping it would do the mid 5's... etc.) Frank
Jason: take it for a longish test drive and take the kids with you. Load up all four adults and see for yourself. It should feel peppy and up to the task. If it's sluggish, imagine climbing a mountain pass.
A bit of history on the Outback:
'95 was the first year, 2.2l engine, and it was more of an option package called Legacy Outback.
'96 came more differentiation, 155hp 2.5l engine, but it required premium fuel.
'97 is the sweet spot - it got more power (165) and could run on cheaper 87 octane fuel.
The next big change was the 2000 models.
Aim for a '97, which has more torque and still runs on cheap gas. A '95 ain't bad, though, and they are lighter, so you may be happy with one of those.
Make sure it shifts smoothly with no shudder; check for rust, panel alighment, brake pedal pulsation, etc.
Good luck.
-juice
My cousin has a '99 and my dad has a 2001, and both are happy owners
I Just got back from the dealership where I plead my case for a new windshield. They took the tip of a ballpoint pen and ran it down the 3 cracks. If the pen "snags" they say the crack is caused by a rock or something other than stress. Bottom line is they felt the cracks were caused by rocks (no bigger than the size of a pen tip mind you). I do have a hood deflector that might have contributed to the problem and I understand the hazards of living in a snow region but I still feel a windshield shouldn't crack by something the size of "." And three different times! When I told them I went 5 years with my previous car without any cracks they said well I guess you were lucky and everything evens out. I am willing to bet my replacement will last more than 3 months without getting 3 cracks!
Juice thanks for the reminder about the heating unit when I get it replaced. (I do have insurance but I have to pay the deductible).
Anyway, the dealership (Shortline) wasn't too symphathic, they more or less just pushed me off and told me to call the 800 number if I wasn't happy with their response. Oh well.
A.J. - yup, Colorado uses a sand and gravel mix to put on the roads. There is a tiny bit of salt added, but very little compared to out east. With almost no salt put on the roads and the very dry Colorado climate, we don't have to worry about rust, just lots of cracked windsheilds. (thats why the Rocky Mountain edition Outback comes with the hood bug/rock deflector and the rear diff. protector)
Phill3 - I feel for you. I didn't know about the 'pen' test. The hood deflector SHOULD prevent most of that type of thing from happening. I guess nothing is 100% affective.
Phil: the rock itself could have been bigger. That was just the size of the edge that caught your windshield.
They use ridiculous amounts of salt in DC and MD, and it's a shame. That can't be good for mother nature. There is some sand, but lots of salt. Cars get all white, it's hideous.
It should hit 50 degrees next week. Hope so, Sandy is begging for a wash.
Juice, if you want to see salt you should live in Ottawa, after a day of sloppy roads here the car looks like it has a beard there is so much salt sticking to it. I wrote in a past post here about all the damage to indoor parking garages, the damage runs into the millions of dollars, several large downtown underground garages had to be closed for extensive work as they were in imminent danger of caving in, all the rebar and metal support structure had been eaten away. Cheers Pat.
I have almost 6K on my OB, and my brakes squeal everytime I back out of my driveway too. I didn't really notice it until the weather got cooler, I have no idea if there's any connection. In reading other posts here I assumed it was normal given some of the explanations about the pads needing to reseat, etc. I should certainly be past any new brake glazing at this point. So, I guess the question is, is this something I should bring up with the dealer, or is it "normal" for the new OB's?
BMW 325xi Sport Wagon: Under $32k Base!!! I asked, it was not a mistake. The one there had: AWD Premium Package (leather and stuff) +$3500 Steptronic transmission +$1275 Cruise HID Heated seats Special fog lamps of somekind AM/FM/CD For $36,455
If it were me, I would get everything there except auto. That puts it at $35,180 MSRP. Good deal.
We (the Maryland Subaru Crew) also saw the 325xi at the Baltimore Auto Show. We too were impressed for the money, however it is noticeably smaller (especially on the inside) than a Legacy or an Outback. Also, for about the same money, you can get a 3.0 H-6 vs. the Beemer's 2.5 V-6. Of course you can opt for the 330xi—for a lot more money. But it's still small.
the 2.5l engine in the '96 and up Outback makes 165hp. It is pretty good, although I find myself wishing for just a leetle bit more, like 180. I don't think the '95 is worth it- the dealer gets to mark it up because it says "Outback," but it doesn't have the bigger engine, the suspension, etc. Does it even have the blistered roof? You are better off with an "L", or pony up to the 2.5 liter Outbacks.
The current 3.0L OB is a good value in the LL Bean flavor but:
The 325xi has: HID 5spd manual or auto Far better suspension True rear bias You can also get navigation Meets the Sube H6 in performance in the 2.5I version (I was told 8sec to 60mph with the 5spd and 9sec with the 5spd sequential shift auto by the BMW rep.). The 330ix is supposed to get to 60mph in 7sec. If you add everything on I'm told it tops out at $40k. The way I want it....$35k.
The Sube is $28k. $7000 advantage to Subaru but you cant get some things. If they every put a more subtle body on the the WRX Wagon it would fry the BMW for a lot less money. The only think that is stopping me from putting the WRX first on my list is that I think its hideous.
But if I were buying I think the 325xi is worth the premium (currently). When the GT H6 Limited Wagon comes out it should be fun to compare them.
I had a post about a month ago stating that the breaks on our 2000 Lecacy Wagon also squeal. The squeal happens not just in reverse but also going forward. This started happening around 10,000 miles. We now have almost 18,000. We took the car back to the dealer and they indicated that it was not a problem and probably due to glazing. A friend who is a mechanic also said the same thing. We've just learned to live with the squeal. I've checked the pads and I'll probably have to change at least the front in another few thousand miles and I'll see what happens after the pad replacement and rotor turning.
I'm considering a 5 speed but have read in reviews that it's notchy. Just wanted to get owner's impressions of the 5 speed. How do you like it and how does it compare to other manual gearboxes you've driven? Tnx.
Sudhir: I agree the styling on the WRX wagon can be a "pill" to swallow but it's worth it to watch me spank a few Bimmers into unintelligible whimpering.
It went right OFF my list of possibilities. The rear middle seat is not usable by an adult. (Note that I said "not usable" - if I merely said "not comforable" that would make it like most alleged five-seaters.) And if the front seats are moved back (I'm only average height for an American male adult and I can only drive it with the seat back 100%)), there is zero legroom for passengers in the outside rear seats, either.
The rear cargo space is impressive. If only they had allocated a few inches of that to rear seat passengers...
The 325 series an any form will not be able to compete with the WRX in probably all performance tests. Come to think of it, I dont even think that the 330 series will be able to run with the WRX but it would fun to check. Dont you think? Either way, I dont think its really a fair comparison. The WRX is lighter, smaller, and faster (not to mention cheaper!!). I would wait for the H6 GT Limited to compare what I consider to be cross-shopping cars.
In my opnion, the WRX is a new generation (the next generation) of muscle/pony car with AWD. What defines it? Refinement is secondary to performance (Mustang, Camaro, Firebird). I think I once refered to it as a Firehawk you can drive in winter and I'll stick to that. It basically does what the pony cars of "old" did. Gives you Ferrari like performance of 1/5 the cost. If you dont believe me check the numbers of the Trans Am Firehawk (stock). It will run with Ferrari 456M GT (my favorite)....but guess which one I want. I think the Pontiac may actually be faster in some cases but I dont know off hand.
The WRX is a great idea but really not for me (looks aside). I'll give up lots of performance of refinement....but really I want both!!!!! The first new generation pony car I can remember is the GSX/Talon but that was not all that great of a performer without mods at least in my hands. With a few stealthy mods (like a bigger turbo and intercooler) the GSX could probably run with stock Mustangs GTs. If DSM brings the Lancer Evo here then there will be another one. Thats another cool car that I dont want. Dont get me wrong, I'm really glad they brought the WRX here and I hope it sells like crazy so there are more of the breed but its just not for me. Now if there was a limited version with GT wagon looks and the comfort of my wifes OB Ltd......now thats for me. Currently its called an Audi S4 Avant and will likely set me back $45k. I would like to have the same for closer to $30k from Subaru to make me change my mind. AND I would change my mind.
I agree with you about the rear seat room in the Outback. The rear seat room in the Forester is even worse. I like the driving position in both the Outback and Forester and I fit nicely (6'-7" tall and 225 lbs) but have found that there is very little room in the rear seats especially behind the driver. Subaru needs to address this legroom issue for America bound vehicles.
Are you sure you drove the Outback based on the Legacy, and not the Outback Sport, based on the Impreza? There is a big difference!
I would suggest you go and make sure which car you actually drove. What you have said about the Outback (Legacy) is absolutely not true. I know, I have one and just returned from a long trip with four regular sized adults. We were not tired at all.
If you drove the Impreza based Outback I will agree with you whole heartedly.
The '97 would be a good target - runs great on 87 octane, plenty of getupandgo. 98 & 99 got minor tweaks, but nothing spectacular. Our test drive revealed a burned out foglight and a weak battery, both of which were fixed without question prior to purchase. They also performed the entire 60k service ritual @ 53000 before they'd allow me to buy it. If the mileage on any prospective purchase is close to a major service interval, it might be a good bargaining chip.
gowiththeflow: It had been a long time since I last owned a 5-speed... I don't find my 97 OB's particularly notchy... sometimes with it had a bit shorter throw, but it's still a blast to drive. Most folks here will agree the AT is a bit of a slug compared to a 5MT, given equal amounts of power. My other manual tranny vehicle is my trusty '69 PowerWagon - no comparison!
k6ncx (are you a Ham?) agree on both counts - Outback rear legroom is not great, but a Forester is worse. I have 2 booster seats in the back of my OB, and the big kiddo has to ride on the hump if we're in the family travel mode, although most of those times we're in the van.
I've got a '96 BB 5 speed. You are right, the shifting feels a little "notch", but guess what? When you get used to it, it won't bother you. It is a hell of alot better than the WV I had years ago. Try driving one, you'll love it. This car has been my most reliable consistent car ever. I've got the old 2.2 liter 4 and the 5 speed gets you alot more pep than the automatic. The 2.5 that year required premium fuel. Plus snow handling is awesome. 1 1/2 r. drive in yesterday's New England snow storm was a pleasure!
Go with the flow: I have a 5-speed 2000 Wagon, and find it a very pleasant transmission. The linkage itself (IMHO) is not at all notchy - the clutch is just a wee bit grabby but not a problem. I've driven 4- and 5-speeds since the mid-60s, starting with a tri-power GTO, and including Fiats, Toyotas, Audis, Nissans and Dodges. The Toyota was tops, the Dodges close seconds followed by the Audis and Nissans. Fiat was, well, Italian. Goat just plain scary.
Goose: Finally had the chance to test the light flashes during lock/unlock. During lock, pressing the button once generates one light flash and total lock-down; subsequent presses cycle the locks again - but no light flashes. For unlock, a single press produces two light flashes and unlocks the driver's door. Second press unlocks the other doors (except in your case, with the sticky passenger door) - but no more light flashes. I could see how pressing it twice fairly quickly would give the impression that the second press is producing the second light flash - but it ain't so. I must need a life if I have time to dwell on these sorts of trivia!
Juice - FYI, they use NO salt in the Seattle area (not that we've needed any the last few years - except for '96-'97). Considered environmentally unfriendly and politically incorrect - a MAJOR sin out here in la-la land. When I first moved here in the 1980s I thought it was a haven for car freaks - there were all these old cars in great shape. Then I realized that a lack of road salt, coupled with the northern latitude (which dramatically reduces sun damage) just allows cars (and everything else) to last a long time.
As for Bimmers - they're akin to Audis in my book - great to drive when everything is working - but when they break (too frequently), be prepared to get hammered on parts/labor unless you can do it yourself (good luck on that count!)
Actually, both the County & State DOT are using liquid magnesium chloride, often laying it down before it snows.. pre-emptive strike? Supposed to be more environmentally friendly than regular salt, and they're using less sand (thus less dust in our perpetually stagnant winter air), but a recent media interview of a DOT mechanic noted that they have to sandblast & repaint the frames of the plow trucks after only 2 years - because of corrosion from the de-ice! go figure!
Ahem, the Bimmer is *only* $7000 more? Let me rephrase that and see what you think.
The Bimmer costs 25% more than the Subie.
Twenty. Five. Percent. More.
That people even *think* about comparing cars that are so far apart in price absolutely screams something about one or both of them. In this case I believe it is both:
1) Those Bavarians are so blindingly certain that their stuff is superior[1] to everything on earth that they don't show the slightest hesitation in putting a smaller car in the same "class" as larger cars from every other manufacturer, and then charging 15% or 20% more than the car would actually be worth even if it weren't done in 15/16 scale.
2) Subaru is hands down the best bang for the buck on said planet.
-wdb
[1] This is not to say that a 3-series BMW is not a better automobile than whichever Subie one chooses to compare it to, but rather that it comes nowhere near being a 25% better automobile.
Hi, I've been reading all the Outback discussions for some time now, but this is my first post. I want to thank everyone here for all the helpful information! I am especially in awe of Juice's Subaru knowledge and passion. After coveting the Outback for 2 years, I finally bought a 5-speed Wintergreen 2001 OB Ltd in November. I love it, and took a great 3,500 mile Christmas road trip with it through Arizona and Utah.
It's been a great car in every way, but there are 3 noises I'm concerned about: 1) Brake Squeal- I've noticed 4 or 5 other people lately commenting on this. It mostly occurs for the first or 2nd brake of the morning as I back the car out of the garage and sometimes the next time I brake going forward. The noise began the second week I had the car. Has anyone had this problem successfully fixed? Or do people just learn to live with it? 2) When the car was about 1 month old, the steering wheel started making a squeaking sound when moving counter-clockwise from a neutral (straight) steering position to about an inch or 2 counter-clockwise. If I turn the wheel a whole revolution, it will repeat the squeak during the same part of the rotation on every following revolution. Has anyone had any experience with this or know what it might be caused from? 3) This is minor, but every time I shift into 2nd gear, (except when the car is really warm), a plasticky clicking sound comes from the shift knob just as it's placed into 2nd gear.
Thanks again for all the interesting discussion! And thanks in advance to anyone who might have some light to shed on these noises.
I've never had any brake squeal problems, but then, hauling the car down from 110 on the main straight at Summit Point for 20 laps probably took care of any "glaze." ) I'm putting fast road pads on the car sometime this month and uprating my fluid to DOT 4 synth.
I like the MT5, and don't find it to be notchy. It is pretty smooth, and not as rubbery as the current VW box.
I'm conflicted about this BMW comparo. The BMW is a prettier shape and has a VERY well sorted suspension, but it is smaller and has higher maintenance cost. The last AWD system BMW fielded has not withstood the test of time. You see a lot more 10 year old Soobs on the road than 325ix's. I love the new xi and think it would be a pleasure to own, but cash is cash and I just can't go there. The soob is a great car for the money, and bigger too.
Plus, as the only member of the BMW CCA withOUT a BMW, I can confidently say that Soob owners are a lot more fun to hang out with than Bimmer owners.
Comments
Subaruman: congrats. Sweet ride!
77k miles is a lot, but check how it was maintained. Did they do the 30k and 60k services and keep receipts? Have they changed the brake pads, battery, tires (maybe more than once), and timing belt?
For you and for Piglet, I recommend a full service so you have a good reference point. By that I mean:
* oil and filter change
* fuel fitler
* O2 sensor
* PCV valve
* air filter
* alignment
* spark plugs and plug wires
* timing belt (if not already done)
* accessory belts
* radiator flush
* new wiper blades
If the hoses for the cooling system look old (cracking, soft, or discolored), I'd do those too.
Basically, that's a 60k service, and you should be set for the next 3 years or so (except regular oil changes). Modern Soob engines can last a long, long time.
-juice
Frank
While the cold can affect its value, it can't be that much. I think they were over-compensating.
Dealers use the NADA book, not Kelley or Edmunds. I'd guess it's worth around $15-16k, depending strictly upon its condition.
-juice
I leased a new O.B. in Dec. It was a std.wagon with the auto tranny, like the person who posted that their father doesn't drive like "Mario" I don't either. Although it not a "pocket rocket" the performance isn't much different than my "98 Mountaineer with the V-6. It did take a bit to get used to the brakes.
The main reson I leased this vehice was our family needed a vehcile to travel safely in during the winter as my son is on a traveling hockey team. At the last test drive we actually brought his goalie gear to the dealer to see how it would fit, no sweat with enough room for our suitcases on road trips.
We have now taken a couple road trips. The ride, handling make it really fun to drive, especially after driving SUV's for the last 16 years. It also has the best heater of any vehicle I have owned.
I have gotten a lot of compliments on the wagon especially on the Wintergreen color. I have been really impressed after having it for a while now with all the subtle things I have discovered. Also the fit and finish are much better than I expected after driving domestics all these years.
The only thing I wish it had was the engine from the new WRX.
Great car!
However, they sweat it the most when you bring in KBB or Edmunds.com quotes!
Tara
Host
Station Wagons Message Board
armac13 - You know your demographics! It was indeed a Richmond school...holding its sports day in Burnaby.
kmclean - I think you are mistaken about no light for the second press. Mine lights for every press. But you are right about the second press having to be much more deliberate (longer duration). I think, after reading your post, that the sticky lock syndrome may be the problem. By the way, I don't think I'd want to put your Maxima transmitter under my chin - it would probably explode my fillings.
sibald - Increased radio range is normal where there are less obstructions such as buildings, cars, lamp posts, etc. Over water is best but you may not want to try this with a car. For example, if one goes out in a boat just a few miles from the west coast, here in Canada, it is easy to pick up San Francisco AM stations on any radio.
goettsd - I wondered about this too. If I ask, of course the person on the other side denies it. But I usually try to unlock before they are actually standing there trying to get in.
-juice
Has anyone else had this problem. Plan to take car back to the service dept. and if that doesn't help will contack Subaru Cust.Serv.
hill
Phil
You could be right about a light flash for every button push. I'm certain pushing the lock button more than once does not produce a second flash (assuming the first press successfully locked the vehicle). I'm less certain about the unlock cycle. Note that mine is the fob that comes with the factory-installed security system (which is a bit different from the other fob if I recall from my reading of the owner's manual), AND I've disabled the horn beep during lock/unlock, so perhaps there's some effect there.
I'd run out and check it right now, except the boss and the kids took the O/B for its first-ever trip into the snow today (Stevens Pass, Washington) to go skiing. Had a BUNCH of snow up there last night, so this will be her inaugural drive with AWD in snow and ice. I expect she'll be impressed with its performance. I had to collect a bunch of chits last spring to get the O/B rather than a Sienna (to replace the previously mentioned Caravan - which, by the way, has not been replaced at all as my teenage daughter "adopted" it for her use). I'll get to drive it in the snow in a couple of weeks as we head to Mt Bachelor (Oregon) for a ski week.
Phill3 - I'd guess you just had a defective or improperly installed windshield - although there's a very slight possibility that your O/B's unibody could have been damaged somewhere along the line and is exerting undue stress on the glass. Not likely, though.
Update - The Donnelly mirror I installed last summer continues to function flawlessly - and, during cold weather, the temperature readout displays "ICE" on start-up whenever the temperature is 37 degrees or lower. Cool! Or is that a "Duh!?".
Well, time to go wash the old Caravan to ensure some blue paint still exists under the dirt.
Cheers!, all. Great forum.
Ken M. (Seattle)
Ciao...
No, I really mean it. Stop laughing ;-)
Weird, eh? If you go to your Preferences you can enter words to make a custom spelling list for yourself, which should fix it. Me, I just leave the busted spelling in there, and never touch the "Check Spelling" button.
Cheers,
-wdb
Phil: that's the spell check.
Your windshield ought to be covered by insurance (in most states anyway). You have the heated base so insist on an OE unit.
ckfreund: aftermarket stereos are cheaper, even compared to invoice.
Lynne: see my reponse above. Yours may just need time to break-in the pads/rotors.
The buzz is harder to trace, so I'd let the dealer look at that. Could be an improperly installed air filtration system, so you have that?
Use the keyless! :-) It's easier and prevents scratches on your new car.
-juice
Now, if Subaru would just put the H6 engine in a 'non-premium' package. Here in Colorado, Subaru offers the 'Rocky Mountain' edition/package. Cloth seats, but heated and with power driver's seat, the nicer sound package and interior features, no moon roofs, but has the bug/rock deflector and differential protector. A really nice package for the money and put together for what Coloradans want - now, if it just had the H6 in it...
Phill3 - you should know that by living in Colorado, with gravel instead of salt spread on the roads, that cracked windshields are a way of life. Maybe the aerodynamics of the Subie hood 'channels' more rocks right at the windshield. Do you have the bug/rock deflector on yours? The deflectors (on any car) do make a difference, because they change the aerodynamics over the hood and windshield. On my Cherokee, I've had windshields that lasted 3 years, and I've had a couple that only went 2 months before a crack(s) appeared. There's been more snow this winter here than the last couple of years, so there is more sand and gravel on the roads this year compared to the last 2 or 3 years. On the other hand, if the crack started at the edge of the windshield, there may be a pressure point there between the frame and the window, which may imply an improperly installed windshield.
The H6 will likely make it into the Outback Sedan for 2002, then onto the other Legacy models and the ST-X for 2003. That's the impression I got after chatting with some Subaru reps at the Philly show.
It makes sense - the Outback outsells the GT and L combined 3 to 1. Also, all these are US-built, while the Forester and Impreza come from Japan. That also means the Forester is more likely to get a turbo than an H6.
-juice
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1400062&Auth=false
-juice
I haven't seen the car yet, but he tells me that it's automatic with 79K mileage; his price, $8,500. If we like it (later this week), we're inclined to go for it. Or, would we really be that much happier going for a '98, say, at twice the price (such as we've seen)?
Thanks for opinions.
Jason W.
Frank
A bit of history on the Outback:
'95 was the first year, 2.2l engine, and it was more of an option package called Legacy Outback.
'96 came more differentiation, 155hp 2.5l engine, but it required premium fuel.
'97 is the sweet spot - it got more power (165) and could run on cheaper 87 octane fuel.
The next big change was the 2000 models.
Aim for a '97, which has more torque and still runs on cheap gas. A '95 ain't bad, though, and they are lighter, so you may be happy with one of those.
Make sure it shifts smoothly with no shudder; check for rust, panel alighment, brake pedal pulsation, etc.
Good luck.
-juice
My cousin has a '99 and my dad has a 2001, and both are happy owners
Juice thanks for the reminder about the heating unit when I get it replaced. (I do have insurance but I have to pay the deductible).
Anyway, the dealership (Shortline) wasn't too symphathic, they more or less just pushed me off and told me to call the 800 number if I wasn't happy with their response. Oh well.
Phill
Phill3 - I feel for you. I didn't know about the 'pen' test. The hood deflector SHOULD prevent most of that type of thing from happening. I guess nothing is 100% affective.
They use ridiculous amounts of salt in DC and MD, and it's a shame. That can't be good for mother nature. There is some sand, but lots of salt. Cars get all white, it's hideous.
It should hit 50 degrees next week. Hope so, Sandy is begging for a wash.
-juice
Cheers Pat.
Jeannette
AWD
Premium Package (leather and stuff) +$3500
Steptronic transmission +$1275
Cruise
HID
Heated seats
Special fog lamps of somekind
AM/FM/CD
For $36,455
If it were me, I would get everything there except auto. That puts it at $35,180 MSRP. Good deal.
Bob
The 325xi has:
HID
5spd manual or auto
Far better suspension
True rear bias
You can also get navigation
Meets the Sube H6 in performance in the 2.5I version (I was told 8sec to 60mph with the 5spd and 9sec with the 5spd sequential shift auto by the BMW rep.). The 330ix is supposed to get to 60mph in 7sec.
If you add everything on I'm told it tops out at $40k. The way I want it....$35k.
The Sube is $28k. $7000 advantage to Subaru but you cant get some things. If they every put a more subtle body on the the WRX Wagon it would fry the BMW for a lot less money. The only think that is stopping me from putting the WRX first on my list is that I think its hideous.
But if I were buying I think the 325xi is worth the premium (currently). When the GT H6 Limited Wagon comes out it should be fun to compare them.
Bottom line is the LL Bean is more family-oriented, the Beemer is more back-road oriented. Different strokes for different folks.
Bob
Jeannette,
I had a post about a month ago stating that the breaks on our 2000 Lecacy Wagon also squeal. The squeal happens not just in reverse but also going forward. This started happening around 10,000 miles. We now have almost 18,000. We took the car back to the dealer and they indicated that it was not a problem and probably due to glazing. A friend who is a mechanic also said the same thing. We've just learned to live with the squeal. I've checked the pads and I'll probably have to change at least the front in another few thousand miles and I'll see what happens after the pad replacement and rotor turning.
Chuck
Cheers,
Stephen
Bob
The rear cargo space is impressive. If only they had allocated a few inches of that to rear seat passengers...
Cheers Pat. No offence intended
Either way, I dont think its really a fair comparison. The WRX is lighter, smaller, and faster (not to mention cheaper!!). I would wait for the H6 GT Limited to compare what I consider to be cross-shopping cars.
In my opnion, the WRX is a new generation (the next generation) of muscle/pony car with AWD. What defines it? Refinement is secondary to performance (Mustang, Camaro, Firebird). I think I once refered to it as a Firehawk you can drive in winter and I'll stick to that. It basically does what the pony cars of "old" did. Gives you Ferrari like performance of 1/5 the cost. If you dont believe me check the numbers of the Trans Am Firehawk (stock). It will run with Ferrari 456M GT (my favorite)....but guess which one I want. I think the Pontiac may actually be faster in some cases but I dont know off hand.
The WRX is a great idea but really not for me (looks aside). I'll give up lots of performance of refinement....but really I want both!!!!! The first new generation pony car I can remember is the GSX/Talon but that was not all that great of a performer without mods at least in my hands. With a few stealthy mods (like a bigger turbo and intercooler) the GSX could probably run with stock Mustangs GTs. If DSM brings the Lancer Evo here then there will be another one. Thats another cool car that I dont want. Dont get me wrong, I'm really glad they brought the WRX here and I hope it sells like crazy so there are more of the breed but its just not for me. Now if there was a limited version with GT wagon looks and the comfort of my wifes OB Ltd......now thats for me. Currently its called an Audi S4 Avant and will likely set me back $45k. I would like to have the same for closer to $30k from Subaru to make me change my mind. AND I would change my mind.
Are you sure you drove the Outback based on the Legacy, and not the Outback Sport, based on the Impreza? There is a big difference!
I would suggest you go and make sure which car you actually drove. What you have said about the Outback (Legacy) is absolutely not true. I know, I have one and just returned from a long trip with four regular sized adults. We were not tired at all.
If you drove the Impreza based Outback I will agree with you whole heartedly.
Daniel
6', 200lb male
gowiththeflow: It had been a long time since I last owned a 5-speed... I don't find my 97 OB's particularly notchy... sometimes with it had a bit shorter throw, but it's still a blast to drive. Most folks here will agree the AT is a bit of a slug compared to a 5MT, given equal amounts of power. My other manual tranny vehicle is my trusty '69 PowerWagon - no comparison!
k6ncx (are you a Ham?) agree on both counts - Outback rear legroom is not great, but a Forester is worse. I have 2 booster seats in the back of my OB, and the big kiddo has to ride on the hump if we're in the family travel mode, although most of those times we're in the van.
Goose: Finally had the chance to test the light flashes during lock/unlock. During lock, pressing the button once generates one light flash and total lock-down; subsequent presses cycle the locks again - but no light flashes. For unlock, a single press produces two light flashes and unlocks the driver's door. Second press unlocks the other doors (except in your case, with the sticky passenger door) - but no more light flashes. I could see how pressing it twice fairly quickly would give the impression that the second press is producing the second light flash - but it ain't so. I must need a life if I have time to dwell on these sorts of trivia!
Juice - FYI, they use NO salt in the Seattle area (not that we've needed any the last few years - except for '96-'97). Considered environmentally unfriendly and politically incorrect - a MAJOR sin out here in la-la land. When I first moved here in the 1980s I thought it was a haven for car freaks - there were all these old cars in great shape. Then I realized that a lack of road salt, coupled with the northern latitude (which dramatically reduces sun damage) just allows cars (and everything else) to last a long time.
As for Bimmers - they're akin to Audis in my book - great to drive when everything is working - but when they break (too frequently), be prepared to get hammered on parts/labor unless you can do it yourself (good luck on that count!)
Cheers, all!
Ken M.
Actually, both the County & State DOT are using liquid magnesium chloride, often laying it down before it snows.. pre-emptive strike? Supposed to be more environmentally friendly than regular salt, and they're using less sand (thus less dust in our perpetually stagnant winter air), but a recent media interview of a DOT mechanic noted that they have to sandblast & repaint the frames of the plow trucks after only 2 years - because of corrosion from the de-ice! go figure!
Cheers!
Paul
The Bimmer costs 25% more than the Subie.
Twenty. Five. Percent. More.
That people even *think* about comparing cars that are so far apart in price absolutely screams something about one or both of them. In this case I believe it is both:
1) Those Bavarians are so blindingly certain that their stuff is superior[1] to everything on earth that they don't show the slightest hesitation in putting a smaller car in the same "class" as larger cars from every other manufacturer, and then charging 15% or 20% more than the car would actually be worth even if it weren't done in 15/16 scale.
2) Subaru is hands down the best bang for the buck on said planet.
-wdb
[1] This is not to say that a 3-series BMW is not a better automobile than whichever Subie one chooses to compare it to, but rather that it comes nowhere near being a 25% better automobile.
It's been a great car in every way, but there are 3 noises I'm concerned about: 1) Brake Squeal- I've noticed 4 or 5 other people lately commenting on this. It mostly occurs for the first or 2nd brake of the morning as I back the car out of the garage and sometimes the next time I brake going forward. The noise began the second week I had the car. Has anyone had this problem successfully fixed? Or do people just learn to live with it?
2) When the car was about 1 month old, the steering wheel started making a squeaking sound when moving counter-clockwise from a neutral (straight) steering position to about an inch or 2 counter-clockwise. If I turn the wheel a whole revolution, it will repeat the squeak during the same part of the rotation on every following revolution. Has anyone had any experience with this or know what it might be caused from?
3) This is minor, but every time I shift into 2nd gear, (except when the car is really warm), a plasticky clicking sound comes from the shift knob just as it's placed into 2nd gear.
Thanks again for all the interesting discussion! And thanks in advance to anyone who might have some light to shed on these noises.
--shoobsube
I like the MT5, and don't find it to be notchy. It is pretty smooth, and not as rubbery as the current VW box.
I'm conflicted about this BMW comparo. The BMW is a prettier shape and has a VERY well sorted suspension, but it is smaller and has higher maintenance cost. The last AWD system BMW fielded has not withstood the test of time. You see a lot more 10 year old Soobs on the road than 325ix's. I love the new xi and think it would be a pleasure to own, but cash is cash and I just can't go there. The soob is a great car for the money, and bigger too.
Plus, as the only member of the BMW CCA withOUT a BMW, I can confidently say that Soob owners are a lot more fun to hang out with than Bimmer owners.