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Full Sized Vans

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Comments

  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    caviller,

    Find me a web site on how best to care for the top of a full size van and I will agree with everything you say.

    Man, it's is a job taking care of a van "roof". Washing the thing is not so bad, but if your into hand waxing, forget it!

    Perhaps I should hire "xfiles" to come down here and modify my garage with some sort of "catwalk" system.

    At this point, I am thinking two large heavy duty step ladders and a couple long 2x12's......
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I had a few 1/8 inch rust spots on the hood, it was clearly visible, but it wiped off easily with my finger. I think that the rail dust could not have been on the vehicle for more then a few days (max a week) because the production date was last week (although likely was produced week earlier). I have had rust form on windshield wipers, and then it leaves a rusty spot on the paint just below the arms by the windshield. It has always wiped/washed off and never created a major problem. I feel I am okay with it, only found 2 spots on the hood and likely there are some on the roof. I hope yours didn't set into the paint.
    Still, I don't think you will have a problem in the long run. Mine should just wash off. I told them not to wash.

    For other defects, the front headliner where it meets the rear headliner (behind front seat) has about a 4 inch tear at the front headliner edge,and it likely happened from pushing on the edge to make it snap into place (slightly visible only). The foam liner is broken at that very edge. So I think I will be pushing for a new one, gluing will not do because the cloth has to be able to wrap about 1 inch over the edge of the liner, and the tear is right on the edge. On hot summers, this edge tear would likely open up.

    Also found what seemed like a few glue spots (1/2inch)on the ceiling near the barn doors for the rear head liner. I am deciding if I should do anything about that, live with it or not. Problem is when they remove that larger 12 foot headliner they may do more damage then good, or bend a few clips putting it back on.

    Last defect involves a bit of buffing on the right front door and right barn door....nothing major. Rest of body was perfect. I'm picking it up on Friday.... so they can do the work. Don't have time to pick it up sooner ...and I am getting a bit impatient. LOL.

    Interesting thing though, I am not sure but feel they upgraded to a newer dashboard....same design but much softer padding which gives it a more elegant look. Seems they also improved the rear cargo doors for fit. They use to be so tight (less then 1 mm gaps it seemed)on the outer edges, and now they left a good 1/8 inch or more.

    Also new for this year was improved torque converter, handles, longer lasting brakes, ignition locks, radios.

    One thing that I didn't like! They mentioned "weight tax", but they didn't know how much it would be till the mfr sets it. Well $540 is rediculous. Bet they charge me tax on the weight tax!
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    "xfiles",

    I liked the Chevy Dash much better than what Ford has. Trouble is, when push came to shove, I could not "find" a Chevy on any dealers lot, so the Ford came in much cheaper (that and the fact it was a new 2000 saved me even more money).

    Had I needed to order, I would have gone with the Chevy for several reasons, one being the dash and another being the extra leg room in the front.

    Remember this about rail dust......you won't be able to see it until it has already started to rust (months later). The best way to check for it now is with cellophane (spelling?). Another way is to put your hand inside a plastic bag and feel the surface of your paint and glass. The plastic will exaggerate any bumps (rail dust).

    Myself, after learning what I did, you can bet the first step I will be taking with any new car is a chemical wash. Out of sight, Out of mind is not a safe game plan when it comes to "rail dust".

    You might also consider "claying" with a non-abrasive clay as part of your initial "detail". However, I would check into the Ford Chemicals to "neutralize" the Iron particles first. Trust me, if your van shipped by rail, the rail dust is on your paint. If you can't yet see it, it is only because it has not had time to start rusting (that and the color of your auto may be hiding it, mine was white, so it could not escape).

    Feel for the bumps, particularly on the horizontal surfaces (like that hard to reach roof). Mine is also on the small window ledges and hood of my van. The roof is the worst however.

    Of course, all this only really matters if you plan on keeping your van for more than 3 years. Myself, I like to keep a car at least 10 (my Volvo is now 5 and won't be replaced until my van is 5).
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    xfiles,

    Weight tax.....if I was in America I would be insisting the dealer show me the actual bill from Chevy. That is a new one on me. Must be a Canadian thing.

    Guess you got to pay for that free health care somehow.

    vguard
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    Here is a post from a guy on another forum.....

    "Do any members have information regarding the long term effect of rail dust on the surface of a new truck?
    Shortly after a purchase of a 01 Dodge Dally Pickup I noticed tiny rust spots all over vehicle even on the glass and plexiglass. To make this long saga short, Chrysler has buffed and clayed vehicle and much rail dust is still on vehicle. To compound this the roof and pillars of the truck are now badly scratched by their quality work and after reneging on a replacement truck Chrysler has blown me off.
    I would appreciate any advice about treating the surface or is a repaint without stripping to bare metal a solution. Oh yea this is my last Dodge product"!

    The problem is very real. BEWARE

    "god bless chemicals and clay"
  • dplachtadplachta Member Posts: 109
    Just wanted to get in the last word on this topic. Thank you!

    (will x-files resist?)
  • cavillercaviller Member Posts: 331
    I'll let you know when I find one. Minivans are no piece of cake for washing/waxing either. I think my solution is going to be to ignore the top unless I have a lot of time, energy and its a really nice day.


    This link, while not specific to vans, has some great info (and products):

    http://www.carcarespecialties.com/howto_articles.html


    A neighbor has an attachment for his hose. It's essentially an extendable rod with a soft wash pad on the end that rotates when water flows through it. You add your car wash and it mixes like a lawn sprayer would. I wouldn't trust it not to leave swirl marks if the vehicle was real dirty, but it sure makes it look easy. I think you can get them at Kmart or Walmart. As for waxing, I've seen nothing, but maybe an orbital buffer on a pole would be something for a good entrepreneur?

  • mrnimmomrnimmo Member Posts: 271
    I've owned many vans, mostly minivans. Several, including a Toyota with very low mileage and otherwise a real gem, had sun fade on the roof due to lack of waxing. The Toy looked like a skunk with a whitish stripe down the middle of the roof. Apparently a previous owner waxed only as far as s/he could reach. If you must get a stepladder or stool, do so. If you don't, your paint will pay the price. Fiberglass tops seem especially susceptible to sunfade if you don't wax enough.

    My $0.02
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    One thing about my van roof.......the reason I discovered the "rail dust" thing at all.....the van had a scratch on the roof when I purchased it. Part of the deal was the dealer would pay to repair the scratch. I suspect they were thinking it could be buffed out (guess they should have crawled up on a ladder when they made that inspection), as it turns out, the scratch went to the metal so the body shop insisted the entire roof needed repainting.

    Because they are repainting the roof, I will end up with not only a "rail dust free" roof, but more paint than the average van roof ever has.

    Without a doubt, I will rig up something to get a good thick coat of wax on that roof, at least two times a year (if not 3).

    The worst looking part of an old full size van is always the roof. People just forget about it I guess.

    I was very pleased when the body shop told me they were going to paint the entire roof. For one thing, they give a life time warranty on any paint they shoot....which is much better than the Ford paint warranty.

    Translation: lifetime warranty on my van's roof finish. (Provided I wax of course)
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I did a full restoration 2 years ago, and did a lot of research into paints. When the roof on your van is painted consider:

    1) Before any primer is applied to the bare sanded
    metal, it is treated with a rust eater. Metal
    begins to rust almost immediately. Standard
    procedure.
    2) Priming metal- the best is Epoxy Primer!
    All other primers that are lacquer, enamel
    based allow moisture to go through. Epoxy is
    so durable that you can drive the car for
    months, so it's super for long term projects
    such as antique restorations. You can even add
    filler over the epoxy, then sand it, and epoxy
    spray again. Urethane is also very tough on
    lacquer primers (will blister), so epoxy is
    the way to go. I found out this the hard way,
    had to remove it off half my car, luckily
    lacquer thinner washed it off very easily.

    3) Final Finish- stick to urethane (including
    clear coat). This you want in writing because
    it costs about 2 1/3x more per quart. Another
    friend of mine asked for urethane and got
    enamel (they didn;t have a fresh air source
    for the paint booth or bottled air). To avoid a
    health hazard (stuff is deadly...it absorbs
    through skin and can cause a heart attack and
    permanent respiratory damage) they switched it
    on him. Seems not all shops have the necessary
    fresh air source, or bottled air, so they might
    scam you. Lot of shops, especially do it
    yourself places only use enamel based paint.

    Urethane is so tough that it is considered almost as good as factory original baked on finish. My buddy repainted a limo recently. Well, I watched the job, and a 4 days later I went through the car wash with him (contact style wash)....and there was no damage, try that with enamel based paints. I then decided to paint my car in urethane myself. This stuff drys real fast chemically, enamels take forever to dry. Urethane is king of paints.

    To test, acrylic lacquer thinner will not remove urethane, but will remove all other finishes including lacquer and enamels.

    They have been shipping vehicles for years, why a rail dust problem now? I asked the salesman at my dealer, and non had heard of it. On Friday when I pick the van up, I will talk to the body shop guys there and let you know what's up!

    You pay all this money, and it is interesting that both you and myself have had to deal with paint damage (scuffing in my case), or other problems. Have you had any other defects that you found? Well, I hope those guys know how to buff paint! My luck they will hit bare metal. They only have a deposit from me so far....LOL! It better look good!
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    I'm not sure xfiles, why they are having all these problems now. Might have something to do with the clear coat they use.

    My sales rep knew all about rail dust, although he never mentioned it "before" the sale was final. However, when I asked him what he knew about rail dust after the fact (by several days), his first words were, "It's a [non-permissible content removed] to deal with".

    As for what type paint they are going to use, I have no idea. Man, this car purchasing stuff is getting more and more complicated every year. Not only do you have to follow the safety stuff...but you need an advanced degree in "Rail Dustology" and now it appeas a minor in "Auto Paintology" would not be a bad idea either.
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    If it were not for opposing views we would never have had a debate in the first place on safety. I think we all brought up a few great points, and we learned a few things. Thanks for the links, that took work too.

    If I could, it would be beer and pizza on me for everyone (Dplachta, Caviller, Mrnimmo, Vguard). Hey, would pizza make it across the border (Canadian Customs) or would the beagles working for customs get to it first? I probably would be charged a "weight tax" on the pizza. Hey, what is better for the waist line ....light or heavy pizza, and what happens if it falls over (roll over)? What is the safest way of "handling" pizza to avoid a lip injury? LOL
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Hey Vguard, I started reading the CHILTON manual I bought for the Savana, and I came across the serial number identification section and what each digit means in the 17 character code (found near windshield on dash).

    Seems digit 11 refers to assembly plant, and the first digit refers to country of origin (in my case code 1 or U.S.). The assembly plant was Oshawa, Ontario, Canada...placing it within 65 miles of my home. I doubt it was shipped by rail. Rail is usually for massive bulk, and trucks are used for breaking bulk (to final destination points).

    Checking your serial number should be the first step in deciding if rail dust is a likely problem.

    Here is the information for GMC (The eleventh character in your serial number denotes the assembly plant as follows):

    B = Baltimore, MD
    E = Pontiac East, MI
    F = Flint, MI
    J = Janesville, WI
    S = St. Louis, MO
    V = Pontiac, MI
    Z = Fort Wayne, IN
    0 = Pontiac, MI
    1 = Oshawa, ON
    2 = Moraine, OH
    3 = Detroit, MI
    4 = Scarborough, ON
    7 = Lordstown, OH
    8 = Shreveport, LA

    Unfortunately I found nothing on Ford Vans in my 1969-91 Haynes Manual.
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    Mine was assembled at the "Lorain" plant in Ohio, where all the Econolines are built. The number your talking about is called the "VIN" (Vehicle Identification Number).

    You can also look at the bottom of your window sticker. On the Ford version at least it has a spot for "final assembly point".

    I bet your right, that yours was trucked in. However, it may have sat at a rail yard waiting for a truck and could have been exposed that way as well.

    If it was me, I would order some of those Ford chemicals and do the wash myself.....If you want, I will get the exact part numbers from the body guy when I pick up my van Fri. I think he said it ran about 32.00 each (for 1 gal of each).

    I am planning on buying them and re-washing my van in about 6 months, just to be sure.

    Are you getting your van Friday? I am (well, getting it back anyway), and I can hardly wait.
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    The Oshawa area near me has several GM plants, as a matter of fact there are about 5 plants in my area. I feel fairly confident it was assembled and painted there based on the code, but yu never know. I am counting on the fact that it was built in the last 2 weeks. It is odd that my Tercel I painted 2 years ago with cheap paint on it is holding up. I have a wiper blade that is always gets a bit rusty (even after I repainted it with rust paint), and so it drips unto the paint, the painted area gets a rust film on it, but being washed only about every 3-5 weeks it shows no problems. I wonder if it is brand specific, there are a quite a few auto paint suppliers.

    Fords also also has a huge modern painting facility they built about 5 -7 years ago near Toronto (same area as Oshawa). I'm sure they have others.

    I hope things turn out well with your vehicle. It's not right they put you through that, a repaint doesn't seem fair, you almost want to push the lemon law in their face.

    Yup, I pick my van up on Friday at 11AM and will take it for a long cruise! Hope it doesn't break down on that drive. I am supposed to also have an appointment with an upholstery store for the front headliner to be replaced. I don't even like the idea someone will be tearing it apart, even though I have done this job myself. He better have CLEAN FINGERS! I plan on being there watching. LOL. As you can see, I don't trust others to do repairs, so I have always done my own.

    Your right about it being called the VIN number, it through me off because that is what was used for the title, yet further down it uses the VIN designation.

    Is the body guy doing a chemical wash now, or are you picking it up from a paint job on the roof?

    I enquired about a GMC shop manual from the dealer. Seems they are now $210 CDN.....yikes! I wonder if there is any source on the net for manuals or a website with free downloads.

    Good luck!
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I drove it from the rear of the dealer lot, and as I turned unto the main road I was hearing a loud whining noise (like a whining rear differential) and also a loud egine noise (as if the dog house cover was removed). I drove the 2500 Savana 1/4 mile and it went away, but I was suspicious and put gas in and took it for a short spin before returning to the dealer. Well, the tranny specialist came on a test drive with his computer hooked up to observe shift points, etc. He heard the noises too, and then within a 1/4 mile it went away again. He said there is definately a problem, and that it is "major" he felt. I was told to leave it, I paid for it, and drove home with only one key (expensive key I would think). I will find out Monday, the mention of a new transmission and even a new 2002 model van if I want to wait was mentioned. Lucky I asked for no cleanup, and it still has the plastic on the steering wheel, the carpets, the seats, the stickers on the windows were still on (and only 35kms on it now). They can resell it easily if I dislike what I hear on Monday.

    The ride is incredible, it is super quiet (once noise goes away), and rock solid, also the tranny shifts real smoothly. I was expecting some rattles, this thing had absolutely not even a single rattle, even held up over railway tracks. Now this brings up rail dust....seems you cannot rely on the VIN number for the assembly destination as we discussed. On the window sticker it showed final assembly was in Wentzville, MO. So I may have to deal with rail dust too.....give me a break!

    The tranny specialist also felt that it was a seal problem, once the oil warms up, and oil distributes, the seal swells and the problem goes away. So he felt I was getting slippage of the clutch plates to make the noise that sounded like the dog house was removed.

    How did it go with your van? Hope your pleased!
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    Sorry to hear about your transmission problems. Guess you should have gone with the Ford (just kidding, I think).

    However, this does give you the chance to re-think the entire thing.....lol

    Go look at the Ford Chateau....quad captains chairs...and the Ford Chateau, unlike the Chevy LT can be ordered in the 1 Ton version (E-350).
    I can't tell you how much I love the quad Captains chairs with the one bench (seating for seven). It leaves a ton of room behind the third row bench seat.

    Or, if you don't mind the half-ton, look at the Chevy LT....it has the quad captains chairs as well (they are so much nicer for adults to sit in than on a bench).

    As for my Van, it looks great. It is a 100% improvement over what it was.

    The brown specs are gone and the finish is now smooth as glass. I have been inspecting my paint from every angle (it is white, so it is hard to see many imperfections anyway), and I have to say, it looks and feels better than any new car finish I have ever had.

    I have already started the process of hand waxing and let me say, once I have wax on the paint, it gets even smoother.

    My roof (which was repainted) looks great as well. However, I won't be able to wax it for 90 days, so I will be checking it daily for "bird poop"....

    Ask your dealer about the Chevy LT.......I don't know if you can get it in the heavy duty version however.

    Bet your weekend plans are ruined !!!
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Yup, weekend plans were ruined a bit. I still prefer the Savana for the leg room and easier access to the rear.

    They think the problem is the seals in the tranny (will know more on Monday). The problem is one single manufacturer (no competition) supplies all the seals for GMC/Ford/Chrysler and others. They make engine, tranny, axle seals, etc. It's not GMC's fault it seems. No way I am accepting a repair. If a alternator goes, they replace it and not overhaul it. I accepted an engine overhaul once before, and it didn't solve the problem, and it cost me on trade in. This time they better give me a new vehicle or new tranny or money back. It hasn't even been taken home yet!

    Sounds like your dealer went out of their way to go the extra mile to make you happy. Sounds like your ready to start enjoying your new van. Sounds like my problems are just beginning.
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    have you seen the "SLT" ?


    http://www.gmc.com/savana/slt/comfort.html


    Leather is optional.....Trust me, at least look at those quad captains chairs. I can stand up and walk back (between the captains chairs) right down the center all the way to the third row bench seat.


    The only down side to bench seats is for adults on long trips. Those captains chairs are great for grownups.


    However, as I read it, you would need to settle for the 1/2 ton (1500).

  • chowinichowini Member Posts: 2
    Any Who have these van that is 96 & up and have no use of the rear 4 seater or rear seats,or have turn it into a work van. I need the floor tracks for the seats and the plastic piece around the track.
    I could use some information as to where I can find these parts beside the parts dept. please e-mail me if you would!

    chowini@mail.com Thanks a lot. P.C.
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    Here is the correct part number for the Husky floor liners (front, both right and left), for your new van (FG 3180 Fronts 01-96 Chev/GMC Express/Savannah):


    http://www.huskyliner.com/3180%20DOC.pdf


    I ordered mine online from "Sporto Motoring" here:


    http://www.sportomotoring.com/husky.tmpl


    These Husky liners are really nice. They are "molded" to the exact dimensions of your floor area (for the Ford Econoline, that includes the hump on the drivers side). I never could find them local. On-line is the only place I had any luck. They are not cheap, but they are really nice. I ordered mine in grey, to match my interior color carpet. I think they come in black and tan as well.


    These are liners, not mats, so they have a lip all the way around that keeps water, etc on the liner itself.

  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I have been real sick with the flue the last few days, and have not gone far with the dealer regarding my van being defective. I found out this much though.

    1. Never ever order if you don't have to! Buying
    without seeing is asking for trouble, and they
    hold all the cards (Mfr). It's a double edge
    sword with passenger vans, because they are
    almost impossible to find on a lot the way
    you want it, so your tempted to order.

    2. We have no LEMON LAW in Ontario! We have
    a Canadian Motor Vehicle arbitration assoc.
    They couldn't help me either, because they
    deal with vehicles that are repeatedly breaking
    down, or the same defect keeps recurring. Mine
    is too new (under 35kms).

    3. In there warranty book they have all the
    options open to them. They can repair or
    replace components with NEW or REMANUFACTURED.
    Well, if they try a remanufactured tranny on
    me there going to be up for fraud. A new
    tranny can cost perhaps $4000, while rebuilts
    easily go for $1500. My biggest concern is how
    do I know I am getting NEW or REBUILT if they
    should decide to replace it. With the plastic
    still on the carpets and seats, they better
    have the decency to give me a new one. Parts
    departments normally only deal in
    remanufactured goods, so I have to be careful.

    The option of ordering another van is not possible, besides I do not want to wait any longer. Seems we both have had to accept certain defects, and to me repainting the body is not the same as new. In my book it is acceptable to replace defective component parts on a new vehicle and the vehicle can still be considered new. However, once you start painting the body you have lost the original finish, it is no longer as good as new. Seems the customer has to suffer, I hope I get a discount for some body dings (right door and the bottom drivers side of the van looks like it ran over a curb) even after the repaint....I doubt it though. GMC has the option of repairing all defects in sheet metal during shipment in their warranty, that certainly does not imply savings for me. The manufacturers have covered themselves from every angle. Your safest bet is buy off the lot, and even still you might miss a few things (like the rail dust which I have not yet had a chance to check out).

    If this was the camera industry, how many people would buy a $2000 camera and then listen to a salesman telling you to "please wait while we first repair it" before you can take it home. Seems to me that if it is defective to begin with, we should be seeing a discount, but we don't!

    I was also told the Consumer Protection Act here in Canada does not apply on vehicles, because when you order the vehicle you enter into a written contract. That's funny, I thought the contract would naturally imply a good vehicle for a good buck ($). Repainting in particular will never make it as good as new either, so a warranty sometimes is still not fair, sometimes we should be compensated for defects.

    Thanx for the floor liner source Vguard. I found a few rolled up in the back of the van (you were right, GMC does supply a few with the van), likely enough to only do the front row. If there inferior I will be quickly ordering those floor mats you mentioned.
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    xfiles,

    Sorry to hear you still have not been able to resolve your van issues to your satisfaction. I know how you feel. When I first discovered my problems (scratch on roof and rail dust contamination), I got this "sick" feeling in my stomach.

    However, after an $825.00 visit with the private body shop my dealer uses (which Ford paid) and seeing the work they did, I feel much better. I hope you will as well, once they have fixed your van.

    I agree with your feeling regarding new paint. I am very lucky that my new paint was the van roof, which is difficult to see anyway (and that it is white, the most forgiving color). I must admit, the paint on the roof looks better in many ways than what I have on the sides. I suppose the fact they were painting a horizontal surface makes all the difference in the world.

    I can't help but think your dealer will do what it takes to make you happy. While some may advise you to take an aggressive approach, from my experience, the best approach is a reasonable one. No responsible dealer wants a customer to be unhappy (which only leads to bad press). Communication is the key to winning any situation.

    Remember this, the dealership parts department will not care if your transmission replacement is new or rebuilt, since GM will be paying the bill. It is the GM rep, not the dealer who is in the position to make that particular decision. My goal would be to get the dealership on my side and help force the GM rep to do the right thing.

    I really hope everything works out and your happy with your van when all is said and done.
  • ormsbeenhormsbeenh Member Posts: 1
    Our 97 E350 Ford Club Wagon has been wonderful to us. 5.4 gets us about 16 MPG on cheap fuel. But we took a beating last summer. $1800 for brakes. Foolishly, I used a indendant truck repair shop to change out the front brakes. They pulled to the left. They used rebuilt calipers that failed. They couldn't figure it out, and after $800. they suggested I see a Ford Garage, who in turn replaced the rear brakes, and seals and another $800. and they still pull to the left somewhat. But your held hostage. I should have just had Ford do them to begin with. Otherwise, we have been thrilled with the van. Tows well, rides good, glad we ordered the 1-ton.
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    Lots of rest and vitamins, xfiles!

    Best of luck,

    Drew
    Host
    Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Yup, I shoved down a good dose of Vit-C and fruit, it sure is doing the trick.
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Seems my dealer consists of idiots. I drove down today to look at my van again, good thing it was behind a high fence away from some other nuts on the lot. Noticed they backed a new 4x4 truck right over a huge bush (4 feet over it)with branches up to 1" thick. My buddy looked at the underside and got a laugh, so did some other people. When this vehicle pulls forward he is going to lose either brake/gas lines, gas tank puncture, etc. This doesn't say much for my dealer.

    Other bad signs I got a bad dealer, the manager makes me wait 3 mins before he arrives to the phone, then tells me he has a customer waiting....well what am I? This has happened 3 times now, I never seem to be a customer now that it is paid for! Maybe I need to do some media to wake them up (how my van was delivered). Bringing that up.....I arrived for pickup of my vehicle and found it with doors locked, hood open (not raised), and sitting at a 20 degree angle in mud(tires 2"deep in it) off the paved area of the parking area (used dealer section). After paying, my salesman never even followed me out to the vehicle to show me around or anything (gave me the keys and said bye). Well, that was what I came home with....1 key and left it at the lot. I expected something like them driving the van to the front of the store for me....shees! If I complain too much, I may end up getting bad workmanship later on (never know). I will be getting future service done elsewhere. Small dealer, small minds!

    I checked out our legislation (real cute in Canada). We have a Canadian Motor Vehicle aribtration association (Camvap). Well, they deal in only vehicles with repeat problems, not new vehicles with 35 kms total. Also we have no grace period after signing....done deal! I hear in the US you get 30 days for a full refund! I get ZIP, Nill, thumb in nose and wiggle your 4 fingers kind of deal!~ GMC also in there warranty specifies all defects including PAINT, SHEET METAL, and other components are covered! Well, that tells me I have a fat chance in negotiations. So I am going to record and photograph everything, any other problems and I will go to CAMVAP, a process taking 70 days on average if I have fruther problems. Bottom line is I am accepting the vehicle (no choice), and have what needs fixing done. Then I want to enjoy it.

    The pros....engine is good, steering/suspension good, love the ride, no rattles (rock solid), super quiet. I am not saying GMC makes bad vehicles, I just got a bad one with a few more defects (ding along bottom edge/tranny/headliner torn) then average on delivery. I will fill you in later once I pick it up. I'm telling them tomorrow to go ahead and fix the existing tranny so I can get it home real fast into that nice garage I fixed for it.

    Sounds like your enjoying your vehicle. I hope to be at that same situation soon! The baloney we customers have to go through....SHEES!
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    "xfiles",

    I can't help but wonder if you would not be better served, having a different GM dealer fix your van.

    It is all warranty work, so whoever does the work makes a profit from the service. Why enable the dealer who has treated you so bad, to make a profit from your misfortune?

    I have never read anywhere that the "selling dealer" is required to perform warranty work. This could be a great opportunity to establish a better relationship with a dealer that actually cares about your experience. From what you have said, your existing dealer could care less !

    Food for thought!
  • rsmmacrsmmac Member Posts: 22
    Dear xfiles,

    Based on my experience, the dealer (and sometimes the service writer) can make all the difference in the world. If you ever visit the "Chevy Express-GMC Savana reliability" message board, you can read about my experiences with a 1997 MC Savana 1500 van conversion (5.7L) and its transmission.

    I went through a few transmissions during my 95,000 mile ownership experience. Each time I visited the dealer, I was treated exceptionally well, provided a loaner car for free (the first time the transmission went bad, I had a loaner van for almost two weeks - waiting for the GMC Rep. to approve the transmission swap).

    This is the first time I have actually trusted a dealership service writer. This guy never fed me any bull, he knew and told me up front that I wouldn't get my van back for at least 10 days (the first transmission swap), and he called me with periodic updates. Being an amateur mechanic (4 years of auto shop in high school) I know most of the basics. I can usually tell when a service writer or mechanic is trying to feed me B.S., and I am very dissapointed when they do.

    I sold the van and ordered a 2001 Savana 3500, 155" wb, 8.1L V8. I think the heavy duty transmission in this one will hold up better (I hope) so I can keep this one a lot longer.

    Before I sat down with the finance department, the salesman came with me for an test drive (15 - 20 miles) & let me check out everything. The only thing I found was that the tow package didn't include the plug for the trailer lights (read the fine print, it only comes "pre-wired"). The dealer had one installed at no cost; the salesman actually agreed with me that it seemed misleading, if not plain silly, to not finish the job when you install a "factory tow package". If you buy a Tahoe, you get the plug from the factory, why not on the Savana?

    I also recommend that you visit other dealers (if possible) and see if you can find someone who values your business. Maybe they'll sell you your next car someday...

    Best regards,

    rsmmac
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I have considered going to another dealer also, and this other one actually is 30 mins closer to me. I had avoided this dealer because the salesman never built a van on the computer for me, just jotted down some numbers on paper and that was it...what yu call a lazy salesman! Since the van cannot be moved with a bad transmission, I will be stuck having that done by my existing dealer, but after that the painting will be done elsewhere, and the front headliner goes out to a upholstery place (so it doesn't matter).

    As for the 3500 van, it is a heavy duty tranny (like what I got)...provided the seals are good in it (mine failed). Unfortunately they come from Freudenberg who has no competition, terrible work conditions, and my friend who works as quality inspector there said they let a lot of garbage pass! They are the exclusive manufacturer for Chrysler/GMC/Ford and others I'm told. Since there are approximatly 28 seals in a tranny, I bet this is a major reason why so many people have tranny problems. My tranny was spinning it's clutches and within 2 blocks the problem would go away as the seals swell up (always 1st gear while cold). Otherwise, this is the same tranny that is used in the 177 inch wheelbase commercial cutaway van trucks with GVWR of 12,000 lbs (Chevy commercial brochure). So that tranny should be more then enough for a passenger van carrying much less payload. I think we should have good luck with it, and I have been told by a tranny shop that it is the 1500 series GMC that is known for tranny problems. The heavy duty GMC tranny is supposed to be the best tranny made in North America. LOL....mine failed on the lot.

    So far my dealer has accepted fixing everything, and I hope things work out well. I have the 3 year warranty on the tranny, and after that I really do not care anymore. I will go to the wreckers and find a tranny for $200-300 (or if I wish a rebuilt for $1500)and put it in myself...it's not a big job (1/2 dozen bolts at the engine, drop the cross member and drive shaft, remove the speedometer cable and one or two more things....that's it). No more arguing or thinking about it, I would rather just get it done. I also know nothing else will be damaged by someone else, or someone dent my vehicle like happened to my friend today. Seems the mechanic charged him for a brake job, while my friend is charging him for a body and paint job on the door after slamming the door into the car hoist pillar as the mechanic exited the vehicle...LOL. Nice big vertical dent! Ouch!
  • khpangkhpang Member Posts: 1
    Hi there!

    I don't know anything about Van. I found a Dodge Ram 1995 B3500 full-sized van, with 96K miles. It seats 12 passengers, 5.9 V8. Any one has anything to say about this model?

    Thanks.

    Kong
  • suvshopper4suvshopper4 Member Posts: 1,110
    re post #533

    I know the Dodge 5.9L (360 cubic inch) has been around a long time, and is supposed to be a real gas hog in the new Durangos. Still, you might need that much engine with a 12-seater.

    I recently had a 1990 Dodge 2500 conversion van with the 5.2L (318 c.i.) engine, which has been in production over 40 years. Great running rig. Bought it with 131k miles, sold it with 152k, and it seemed to have plenty of life left in it. The auto trans was acting funky, but it was a good-running, reliable truck.

    ejp
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I went down to discuss what the problem with the tranny, and the supervisor and tranny mechanic test drove it and felt nothing was wrong. Well after driving it a while I now know their both wrong, they just didn't drive it long enough. So although I got it home today, the tranny is still not right. By the way....didn't look like it would fit the garage I enlarged, but it did....whew!

    Seems whenever I stop for any length of time (even a red light) that the loud noise begins and it takes much longer to shift into second (also makes a differential like whining sound. After 1/4 mile it's back to normal until the next red light. Sounds like it takes a short distance of driving to build up vacuum, and then when I stop for even a minute I have lost some of the vacuum. Since the tranny functions by hyraulics it sounds like a feasible problem. Their the experts, they can figure it out, I just know it' still not right, but now I have drove it and likely the clutch plates will have had damage from excessive spinning (or will very soon).

    The supervisor was young, said he knows less then the tranny guy regarding trannys, yet he made the final decision...he was even half hour late for my appointment. Shows what I am dealing with! So it is going back. This time the idiot made the problem worse with the miles added on now.

    Other then the tranny problem, the emissions/tranny/suspension/steering/ fuel and other systems seem to all be perfect. Rides great, very quite,lots pickup, and can't believe a vehicle so big has no rattles. I am starting to enjoy it finally (less one problem left)!

    I was surprised with the gas mileage, although too new to calculate, it sure went a long way on a 1/4 tank of gas....I was impressed, and after 5000 miles will expect it to be a bit better yet.

    By the way, didn't need any body work...that had me worried. Just leaving the bottom edge the way it is, it's not noticeable and I noticed others have the same imperfection. I can live with it.
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    to a different GM dealer. That's my advice (although I would get the fellows name who drove with you the first day you went to pick up your van, and who agreed you had a problem).

    I just got back from purchasing several cases of Mobile 1 synthetic oil. I plan on making the switch in the next couple days....any opinion on synthetics for full size vans "xfiles" ? (we need to keep the conversation relevant to full size vans or we will get booted off.....).
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    Nah, we won't boot you off...at least not yet ;-)

    Regarding Mobil 1, I would wait till you're at least a couple of thousand miles after break-in before switching. I personally switched my vehicle to Mobil 1 5W30 at 3500+ kilometres on the odometer (break-in was at 1500 kms); it required 8 litres, or 8.5 quarts of the stuff. That was its 1st (unscheduled) oil change. Its 2nd oil change, this time scheduled, was done at about 16500 kms, and with Mobil 1 15W50, as approved and recommended by the manufacturer.


    Drew
    Host
    Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    When to switch is the big question. I have almost 1300 miles on my van, as of today.

    I have read the threads on synthetics and have also read Mobile's position on using synthetics at any time, but I am thinking now I will make the switch at somewhere between 1800-2200 miles (sort of a compromise between "day one" and "first scheduled oil change").

    The bigger question for me is when to make the switch to the Mobile synthetic transmission fluid (a 14qt. job on my van = $70.00 for fluids).

    The arguments for synthetic engine oil, when applied to transmission fluid, really show promise.

    Trick is to find this stuff on sale.....I spent all day yesterday searching for retailers who would match Kmarts $4.00qt Mobile1 sale price (normal price $4.47). Of course, Kmart had none in inventory, but I was able to get AutoZone to match, so I picked up a few cases. It seems the Mobile1 filters never go on sale ($9.99ea).

    oh ya.....FULL SIZE VAN (gotta make sure I include that in my thread).....
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I can't remember the site I was at last week, but an auto engineer there said that because of the tighter tolerances found today that break in is not as critical as in the old days. He said that in the old days nothing was perfectly round (not even the pistons), but now things are dead on. He mentioned the first 50 miles are critical, and take it easy the first 1000 miles. So your not much over the hill yet for the switch to synthetics.

    I have also read many times and even my dealer said to expect some improvement in gas mileage at the 5000 mile mark. I tend to believe this, and it implies further break in continues on for a while longer. One other thing, there is talk of break in oil, and from what I understand the difference is something to do with foaming agents....can't remember if break in oil has it or isn't suppose to have it. In my opinion it would not hurt to reach the 5000 mile mark.

    Remember, machined parts need to "set". Even with my air compressor they said DO NOT change the oil too soon, because too clean an oil does nothing to polish the metal....you need some abrasive quality to the oil in the beginning (that black sooty look is necessary). Even the air compressor maintenance fellow told me if you change the oil too soon that the compressor will not break in properly. He said it's always safer to wait a lot longer then not enough. Were not talking about waiting till 25,000 miles, I just wouldn't worry about it till the van is really broken in well. It wouldn't hurt to go through two complete oil changes....say around 7000 miles.

    By the way, I got GOOD NEWS...nothing wrong with my tranny. Seems GMC vans have the "loudest" clutch cooling fan for the radiator on this planet. I took out another van and it did the same thing, it sounds like an approaching bus with it on, and it whines too. This is one part I will replace quite soon with "aftermarket" parts. It even fooled the tranny man, luckily the supevisor noticed it. If it were not for test driving another vehicle I would not have believed him. Believe me this fan is downright embarrassing for noise. I am finally like yourself a happy camper! The van had NO MECHNICAL defects at all! Real surprise to me!
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    What is more important is frequency of oil changes (I am rewriting this, somehow I lost this section in the previous article). Remember that each time you start your vehicle some fuel gets pass the rings and ends up in the oil pan. Next time you check your oil, just smell the dipstick (just like fuel). This is a normal condition.

    So although synthetics lubricate better, it's real advantage lies with non combustion type motors (electric motors). I would not stretch things too far between oil changes because the engine parts do not like fuel in oil which breaks down anything....it is really a cleaner. So freqeuncy is the key. Most oil starts failing at about 1500 miles, and 95% of the population does not change it this soon (nor do I). I change every 3000 miles and I got 400,000 miles (not kms) on my Tercel.....so I myelf am not even worried about synthetics. Synthetics though are standard on high performance racing engines to withstand higher temperatures.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I miss my Tercel:-)

    I keep pretty meticulous mpg (kpl?) records and my mileage didn't plateau until around 15,000 miles on my Quest minivan. Anecdotal, but there it is....

    Lots more oil stuff in the Synthetic motor oil message board (maybe too much!).

    Steve
    Host
    Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Rollover characteristics of 15-passenger vans

    Steve
    Host
    Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Not touching that one with a ten foot pole Steve....LOL!

    Hey, what model year of Tercel did you have? How many miles you accumulate?
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    I remember you saying how difficult a time you had with the washing and waxing of the roof. Well, I went to a professional cleaning supply store and purchased an attachment for a broom handle. It is a T-shaped attachment wih the 1" thick arms extending about 7 inches to either side of your broom pole (once attached). Actually a professional window cleaning blade would work almost as well. On this is a thick shaggy cotton boot (with snap ons) that slips on over the 14 " blade tightly. Well, using this I hand washed what I could reach and I finished the center of the roof with the broom handle and attachment.

    This attachment is generally used for cleaning walls by professional cleaners. It sure beats using a rag at the end of a pole and risking scratching your vehicle. The snaps hold it tightly in place and stay hidden to prevent any damage to the vehicle. It should make waxing the center of the roof very easy with a 5 foot stepladder. The shaggy booty is very durable, and you can wash ond re-use over and over.

    I was lucky Vguard, I didn't find any evidence of a rail dust problem. Any rail dust that was there is now washed away with soap and rag.
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    If a fully loaded 15 passenger van has that problem, I wonder what happens when you convert a full size van for ambulance use?

    My van won't seat more than 7, so I guess I am just running the normal "full size van" risk of rollover.

    Of course, I drive like an old lady from Florida (or so my wife says anyway), so my risk of rollover is less than anyone, in any car!!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It was an '82 4 door sedan bought new. Drove it cross-country a couple of times and it was our only ride for 7 years. Then it wound up being driven a couple of times a week for 10 years (I work at home). So it only had 112,000 miles on it when I sold it in May '99 for $800.

    I'm not going to touch your post either, not even with a 10' pole with a shaggy cotton booty on it....

    vguard, excellent question. The E350 is one of the ambulance conversion models, and this page doesn't mention anything about, say, suspension mods. They do require a block heater, which comes in handy if you're running around Tampa/St. Pete I guess .

    Steve
    Host
    Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Is an empty bus or full bus safer, is a empty transport truck or fully loaded 60 ton truck safer? Not that I want to get into this safety issue again, but what vehicle is as safe full as it is empty?

    I think things need to be placed in perspective. A transport truck driver would consider a fully loaded 15 passenger van a lot safer then what he is driving. A transport truck takes a lot longer to stop, has incredible loads (loads that can even shift), takes risks shipping hazourdous or flammable liquids, and are dangerous to small car motorists, etc. We accept those vehicles on the roads, and the drivers are willing to drive them. It boils down to one thing>>>SLOW DOWN when you have a heavy load. Like anything else, act foolish and you will get hurt. Would you feel safer on a motorcycle? There is always risk!

    As for myself, my extended van will only have 2 people on board, and rarely 3-4. I am not worried.I wouldn't enjoy driving it fully loaded with 12 passengers any more then I would enjoy a fully loaded car bouncing on the road with a suspension a bit weak for what it was really intended for. Most cars do not drive that well when FULL! Then again a motorcycle is not that safe either when there are 2 on board. The ability to avoid an accident is drastically reduced when you have a rear passenger (handling is terrible). Yet we see trucks/vans/cars/motorcycyles/bicycles on the road and we take our chances. When you consider that people take chances riding bicycles on the road, motorcycles, or bungee jump.....does it not make you wonder if safety is always what is most important.
  • mrnimmomrnimmo Member Posts: 271
    Agreed. Any vehicle is less safe when pushed to it's limits. I don't like seeing any vehicle driving around with its rear end sagging. You know the suspension is already maxxed out. I cars and minivans (especially the older Chrysler's) dragging their rearends all the time.
  • vguardvguard Member Posts: 78
    weight limitations when towing? I passed a guy yesterday who was towing an 8200lb (empty/dry weight) Airstream trailer, from the back of his small-sized SUV. That is a trailer I would not even attempt to tow.

    Imagine his handling characteristics once he fills up his small SUV with his family/luggage/dogs, etc.

    Notice I said I passed him.....trust me, I wasted no time getting away from that idiot.
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Reminds me of the commercial (not sure which mfr)where the small little car is willing to give the transport truck on the side of the road a tow (for sure, for sure)...LOL. Or the GMC truck towing this huge ship unto the shoreline...LOL (while in sand??). Seems some guys believe they can tow anything. Sure it will pull it (usually) if you want to compromise safety and accept greatly reduced life on the vehicle. Shees, if one of those big wrestlers can pull a bus, I am sure a mini van can too. However, these people do not realize they are frying the engine, clutch systems, brakes. I can imagine the strain on the crankshaft assembly and other components in an underpowered vehicle not designed for towing. The repair bill later is 20 times higher then if they would have rented a tow vehicle. I would not even want to approach the manufacturers tow limits if I respect the vehicle. New vehicles are too expensive to treat like that (unless you buy very old).

    This is where the full size SUV, pickups, and full size vans became popular to tow our largest toys. Mini vans can do some work with smaller trailers, and most cars cannot tow much more then a few cases (24's) of beer without the rear end dragging....LOL.

    Bottom line, I think
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    When I wrote "Bottom line, I think"....this was the start of a new paragraph that I some how forgot to erase. However, it does sound FUNNY! LOL

    Wish I noticed it sooner.
  • xfilesxfiles Member Posts: 132
    Interesting problem about them brakes and too bad all that money was spent and you still have the problem. I wasn't sure if you meant it started pulling to the left after the brake job was done the first time (and it was not pulling to left before you went in for service). It may be that someone contaminated the front pads with oil,etc. (dirty fingers can do it, or dropping it on a dirty floor) and just put them on after cleaning with a towel. That changes the holding characteristics as the brakes are applied. If one brake grabs firmly and another cannot due to slippery pads your going to see some pulling. I cannot see any other reason for it since the calipers are rebuilt and I assume moving freely. Ask for new front pads.....there cheap enough and only take a few minutes to install.

    I read over your comments again and noticed that your rebuilt calipers FAILED! Well, that is a give away for contaminated front pads. The calipers leaked I bet and all over the pad on the one side of the vehicle. They replaced the caliper and not the pads...... that is the likely source of contamination.

    Try Midas Muffler guys....they will always check your brakes for FREE. Ask for their advice!
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