Subaru Legacy/Outback

ateixeira · November 2003

Yes, I would replace any seals/gaskets that you remove during the process.

191k? Yeah baby! OK, you gotta hit the 1/4 million mile mark, keep it up!

Good job, Craig. In the big picture, I didn't even notice the cord!

-juice

gord7 · November 2003

Sebberry - thanks, that is what I thought. Strange how with the climate control you can switch off the AC but not on the cheaper version on my L. Still looking for a way to disconnect the link so that I can get full hot air, without the cooling from the AC, on the windshield to get rid of ice and freezing rain.

Anybody investigated the switch connections?

c_hunter · November 2003

On the WRX, theres a little tab on the gears of the "mode" knob that triggers a pressure switch when the knob is rotated to defrost. The switch turns AC on/off. People have disabled this feature by either cutting the wires to the switch or taking the switch out. I'd imagine it's the same on other Subarus with mechanical knobs.

There are "mod" directions on this at scoobymods.

Craig

jfl · November 2003

One step before full defrost is the combination defrost/footwell. It doesn't trigger the a/c.

Jim

sebberry · November 2003

I have a question comparing the non-sportshift and the sportshift transmissions.

First, the gate shifter has the D, 3, 2, and 1 positions.

The sportshift mode lets you cycle through the gears at the nudge of the handle.

Why can't the non-sportshift be driven through the gears manually?

What is the mechanical difference?

Many thanks,

paisan · November 2003

There is lag-time if you try to shift the non sport-shift manually. I have some pretty exentsive track time with the ATs in both auto-x and road courses and it's simple not quick enough on the shifts when shifting the non sport shift manually. I have yet to try the sport shift at auto-x or track so I'm not sure if that is any better.

-mike

fibber2 · November 2003

Gordon, Something you might not be considering. Most A/C units have a thermal safety switch set at about 42'F to protect the compressor from accidental return of liquid freon from the evaporator. So on frosty Canadian mornings, the A/C is probably not running, despite any indicator lights that suggest otherwise.

Steve

ateixeira · November 2003

The SportShift is much quicker. Still not immediate but it does respond reasonably quick. Plus it's designed to be used all the time, while the PRDNL is not.

-juice

gord7 · November 2003

Craig - Thanks, I'll do a little exploring under the dash this weekend and see if I can find the tabs - after I've checked out scoobymods of course.

Steve - I wish that was the case but starting the car and then scraping the windows I can hear the AC kick in even when air temperature is below freezing.

Gordon

trautmak · November 2003

Thanks for your earlier comments about buying the 2003 Legacy GT wagon (12000 miles). We settled on $20,388, down slightly from $20,586 and are picking up the car tomorrow. The dealer is offering us the Subaru Gold Plus Warranty, 5 yrs/ 100,000 miles, no deductible, for $1266. I would not get it except that in the contract it states that the full amount of the premium will be refunded if no claim is made during the warranty period. We drive about 25,000 miles a year. I know you lose interest on the money even if you get it back at the end of the warranty, but I am thinking it is not a bad deal. (We live in NYC and travel upstate on weekends and take trips in the car). Any of your thoughts and opinions will be appreciated.

mikef11 · November 2003

In my Canadian 03 Outback, the A/C does start on defrost/foot position as well as on full defrost. Also, you cannot turn on recirc in either of those two positions. I've written my deep dislike of these features before so I won't go on about it now.

Gordon, if you find an easy solution to either or both of these, let me know.

MikeF

jlemole · November 2003

I just purchased a 5/100 Subaru Gold warranty with a $100 deductible for $1,000. So your price doesn't seem off the mark. You put on the kind of miles that I do. That, combined with the raodside assistance , etc., makes the warranty a no-brainer in my opinion. If you're financing the purchase, you'll be out of the factory warranty well before you've got the car paid off.

Jon

subaru_team · November 2003

Please double check that refund information. If it is Added Security, the dealer may be offering to refund the money if there are not any claims against it, but it isn't a provision of the coverage. Make sure you ask them to show you where it states that and how it is supported. It could be an added benefit that the dealer is providing which is great.

Patti

darthvapour · November 2003

Just wondering if the dealers will move on the MSRP or not. With the value of the Canadian dollar these days it's cheaper to buy in the U.S.

Cdn MSRP 33,095 incl. Auto & dest.
US MSRP 24,695 incl. Auto & dest.
US MSRP in C$ 32,100 that's a $1000 less, and if U.S. dealers deal it'd even be a better deal. Based on an exchange rate of 1.3 C$/US$

bat1161 · November 2003

Took a ride in my friends 03 OBW 4AT a couple of weeks ago. One thing he has that I don't is the AWP. After riding with the heated seats on, my next Subie will definitely have that feature. Is that now standard on all Subaru's?

Mark

ateixeira · November 2003

25k miles per year is a fast pace. The age of the components will not be that high. I think it might actually lessen the value of a warranty if you drive at that pace.

We have a 7/100, and we're pretty sure we'll get the full 7 years out of ours.

Mark: last year it came on all Outbacks. Now it's missing only from the Outback with the Sound Package, primarily meant for markets like Florida. Most of the ones you'll find in NY will have the AWP.

-juice

fibber2 · November 2003

Gordon,

I too tried it out last night at 39'f, and it still came on. But this morning at 34'f it would no longer engage the compressor. So the temp is lower than I expected, but at some point it should be a non-event. It is possible that sensor placement could be an issue. Say if it is in an area that engine bay heat influences, then it might run despite true outside conditions. I have to see if I can borrow a shop manual set and look it up.

Steve

pathtomax · November 2003

Thanks to everyone here for the insight. I called around to 5 dealerships for the 5/100 warranty. Four of them came back with $1500 but then the last place I called, Manchester NH Subaru, offered the same for $1100!

A good $400 saving off the retail!

ateixeira · November 2003

Cool, congrats on both purchases, by the way.

-juice

fibber2 · November 2003

Gordon,

As nobody else posted, here's my entry. Changing the hardwired 'logic' within the HVAC control unit would be difficult without a lot of disassembly to get to the rotary contactor behind the knob. There is a wiring harness connector out the back, but I don't have a wiring diagram to tell you which wire goes to the compressor.

Suggested method: The A/C compressor is right on top next to the oil dip stick. The wire for the magnetic clutch exits in plain site, goes to a black connector, then right into the harness. If you open that connector, the compressor should stop running. Hit a good autoparts store for a matching connector set (so that it is fully restorable), run the line back thru a grommet in the firewall and add a dash switch. Turn the switch off for the winter, if you please.

I once owned a Mercury Montego in which the A/C ran in all modes except vent. There was no separate A/C switch. Needless waste of gas. This is exactly how I handled it.

Steve

K9Leader · November 2003

Last week I started hearing a chunking noise on hard left turns on my 2000 OBW (41K mile). Turns out the sway bar (or stabilizer bar, or anti-sway bar) was broken. It broke right where it is bolted to the underside, so the curved part was hanging down and hitting the wheel on left turns, hence the "chunk-chunk-chunk" noise. I've pulled the loose part off so it won't hang down and cause more damage.

It was going in for an alignment the next day. The guy at that shop seemed amazed I had broken it and wanted to know what was I doing to break it -- thoughts of traversing a boulder-strewn dried creekbed running through his head, no doubt. Alas, I was only turning left into my son's high school parking lot when it happened (or at least the first time after it broke and I heard the chunk-chunk).

I have pulled the removal and installation instructions off of AllData, but they do not seem to match up with what I see under the car. It appears that the bar runs under the exhaust pipes right where they connect to the manifolds, so it appears that these will have to be disconnected to do the repair. However, the AllData info does not say anything about this step. Can anyone shed light on this?

K9Leader

ateixeira · November 2003

This is a pretty easy job. I've done a couple of Foresters, mine plus I helped Hutch. It's just 4 bolts.

Grease up the bushings first. I think the routing will become obvious to you.

Back then, the 18mm rear bar for a Forester was about $80 from a wholesaler.

Did you jump a curb or something? It's a thick metal bar, pretty wild that it broke.

-juice

K9Leader · November 2003

Juice:
No, nothing out of the ordinary. It isn't bent or crushed or torn -- the break is clean and just sheared right through. Probably just a weak spot that finally gave out.

Can I do the job on ramps (Rhino Ramps) or do I need jackstands (i.e., does it have to be off the suspension)?

K9Leader

ateixeira · November 2003

I did my Forester with Rhino Ramps, so you do *not* need to unload the suspension.

Even without them, you could jack it up at the rear diffy and put jack stands at the jacking points.

It's an easy job. I'd remove the broken one now, rather than wait for the new part.

-juice

c_hunter · November 2003

If the sway bar broke with only 41000 miles, you should take this up with Subaru. Cost is one thing, but this is potentially a very serious safety issue. I think somebody at Subaru ought to know that a suspension component failed for no apparent reason. At the very least, let's get Patti's opinion on this.

Sway bars are generally supposed to be lifetime parts. They should not fail under normal use.

Craig

ateixeira · November 2003

Did you ever drive over anything in the past, that may have created a hair line crack? Then it would have just been waiting for a little jolt to make the final break.

-juice

c_hunter · November 2003

My friend's dad han an Alfa Romeo convertible (some 80s model I think). They called it the Alfa Repairo because it was always breaking. Several parts outright failed. At the time, we were in engineering school and did a full analysis. In one case, it was a stress fracture right near a hole (stress concentration) and another there was a defect in a cast part which left a small void (also a stress concentration). it was really interesting, and lowered my opinion of Italian cars even more (I'm 50% Italian, by the way). Very poor engineering.

Since the sway bar is really a "sprung" part I would expect it to fail all at once, and not be something that develops over time. Hard to say. But it would be interesting to look at the fracture and see if there are any clues. How about a picture?!?

Craig

kmclean · November 2003

Gordon -

Just a thought on de-linking the A/C compressor from the defrost function (although I agree with the sentiment). I recall reading some years back that when A/C became a standard feature on all but the cheapest cars that the manufacturers were concerned about the A/C seals, gaskets - whatever - "drying out" by not being used during the winter months - especially by owners living in the more northern latitudes (not meaning to ignore you, Graham). Hence, they caused the compressor to run when the defrost cycle was selected - at least down to a certain temperature. That, plus the fact that running the compressor does improve defrosting efficiency in some temperature/humidity conditions.

This may be dated - or irrelevant - information at this point, but perhaps it's worth considering before you alter the system.

Cheers from [cloudy, rainy, windy] Seattle!

Ken M.

paisan · November 2003

on the WRX is a PITA. You need to take the sub-frame off to get it off.

-mike

jfl · November 2003

I double checked my 2000 Legacy yesterday. My compressor does not come on in the defrost/footwell mode. It only switches on in the full defrost mode. You can verify this because the RPMs don't increase in the footwell mode but revs up in both the full defrost and a/c modes.

Jim

subearu · November 2003

My '00 Outback does the same. I even found that if you turn the dial halfway between the full defrost and the defrost/footwell mode that you don't trigger the compressor and get more airflow at the glass than you would in defrost/footwell mode. Not sure I'd trust it, since it's unsure if the dial would stay.

FWIW, this morning in the drizzle and 50F temps, I turned on full defrost without much thought or worry.

-Brian

ateixeira · November 2003

Hmm, you never mentioned front or rear, but now that I re-read your post, you were probably referring to the front sway bar. Is that right? If so it's definitely harder to do than the rear.

The A/C compressor is so efficient nowadays, honestly I don't think it's worth it. The compressor may run even with the temp setting towards the hot end, but that dehumidifies the air and successfully removes condensation from the windshield.

In other words, it defrosts.

)

I track my mileage and all summer long with A/C my efficiency was excellent, better than in the winter with oxygenated fuels. So compressor efficiency is so good that I really would not worry about it. Plus you keep those seals lubed.

Just my 2 cents' worth.

-juice

K9Leader · November 2003

Juice:

You are right -- I didn't mention that it was the front sway/stabilizer bar that snapped -- that is why the broken piece would hit the wheel during left turns.

Well, I guess I will find out how difficult it is to replace, as the part is ordered and is to be my Saturday project. As I noted in another post, the removal/installation instructions on AllData seemed straightforward, but do not say anything about disconnecting the exhaust pipes from the manifolds, which appears to be necessary (they are bolted together right at that spot). Has anyone done this or can confirm this is what I have to do?

--K9Leader

ateixeira · November 2003

If it's been drained/refilled before, the drain plug is plastic and the threads might just be stripped. Have it checked out.

-juice

mikef11 · November 2003

From my 03 OBW manual (Yes, I RTFM :-D):
"When the dial is placed in the "defrost" or "defrost/foot" position, the air conditioner compressor operates automatically regardless of the position of the air conditioner button to defog the windshield quickly. At the same time, the air inlet selection is automatically set to "Outside air" mode.
In this mode you cannot select "recirculation" mode by manually pressing the air inlet selection button."

Unfortunately the manual is accurate for my car. My salesman thought the 2000 OBW were the same, but my memory says otherwise.

However, further in the manual, for cars with auto air system (which I don't have and hence never read before) it restates the above quotes and continues with "Even with this mode selected, you can turn the air conditioner ON/OFF and select interior air recirculation or outside air introduction as desired."

So, it appears the upper level cars can turn off the A/C and can recirc air when in defrost mode, but the lower level can't.

I'll disagree with you on the A/C question Juice. When it is cold outside, the Relative Humidity of warmed air is very low and the air is very dry. Extra dehumidification is not needed (in fact, many houses have humidifiers for the winter as teh air is too dry). If we could recirc the air, then it may be needed, but I can't do that. Note that the manual indicates that the A/C is to help defog, not defrost.

The manual gives no indication that the compressor turns off at low temperatures but does state: "Operate the conditioner compressor as a low engine speed (at idle or low driving speeds) a few minutes each month during the off-season to circulate its oil.". To me that implies that the compressor will work even in sub-freezing temperatures.

MikeF

paisan · November 2003

But here when it's cold the air is pretty dang humid.

-mike

mikef11 · November 2003

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'cold'. :-) I was careful to say that when you heat up cold air, the RELATIVE humidity decreases. Cold air cannot hold as much moisture as warm air, so feels more humid even though there is less water in the air.

MikeF

kmclean · November 2003

Geez - you guys just hit my weather-geek button with the humidity comments.

In a nutshell: focus on dewpoint (yes, you'll find this on the Weather Channel). The dewpoint is the temperature at which relative humidity is 100% (as an aside, it also indicates the lowest ambient temperature possible unless the dewpoint drops). Most relatively normal people won't describe conditions as "humid" much below the 40s (Fahrenheit) - simply because the dewpoint is too low (see previous sentence). Hence, when it is 39 with 100% humidity, few of us complain. On the other hand, when it is 85 with relative humidity of 80% (indicating a dewpoint of roughly 79), we're all miserable. Dewpoints below 40 are dry, 50s are comfy, 60s are sticky, and 70s and above are tropical. This is why Seattle, despite our wet fall and winter climates (especially today), is never "humid."

'nuf said. Time to clean the leaves out of the gutters (again).

Cheers from Seattle!

Ken M.

fibber2 · November 2003

has less to do with the need (or lack of) for dehumidification, and more to do with warm-up rate. When the A/C compressor runs, the inside temp drops fast. You just cannot get as much heat to the windshield during warm-up with it on, as when it is disabled. So when it is near freezing outside/inside and you are trying to warm the windshield, it simply takes longer if the compressor kicks in. Again, my experiment says that about 35'F is the thermal switch cutoff point (which is lower than I thought), but I understand why he would want to have the option to turn it off.

As I posted above, it is easy enough to do by adding a switch to the compressor clutch.

You must run the compressor periodically year round for two reasons.
1) Compressor oil (2-4 oz mixed in with the R-134) lubes and helps to swell compressor seals & "O" rings . If it all drains to the bottom, seal leakage will eventually occur.
2) Automotive refrigerants contain a certain amout of free fluorine and chlorine. When they remain stagnant for long periods of time in the presence of trace amounts of water vapor present in the system, weak acids are formed (HCl, HF, etc.). Eventually, they eat the system from the inside out.

Steve

kmclean · November 2003

Big surprise in the Seattle lowlands this morning. After a couple of days of heavy rain that caused river and urban flooding, we awoke to an unpredicted snowfall of a couple of inches by 6 AM. Seems the temp dropped more than 20 degrees overnight, and the remaining rains turned white!

Install the ski racks! Launch the Outbacks!

Cheers!

Ken in snowy(!!) Seattle

gearhead4 · November 2003

I understand Gordon's complaint and think that Steve is right on when he points out that the compressor chills the air even more until the engine heats up.
I would like to add, that some people (my spouse, for one) mistakenly think that the defogger blows warm air even with a cold engine. Until that engine runs for a few minutes, the defogger blows cold air in your face.
I say, give me the OPTION of turning on the AC compressor with the defogger. I drove many vehicles that had no AC and yet did a satisfactory job of clearing the fog from the windshield.

- jim

pathtomax · November 2003

It seems everyone keeps going around with this issue. I live in NH and see the need for the A/C compressor in defrost mode. Cleans the window quickly.

I just wish that it didn't hurt some horsepower on my H4.

Oddly enough, I think that some of the lines in my rear-defrost have stopped working. I have 2 fog lines in my view. Anyone else had that happen?

gord7 · November 2003

Didn't mean to start a controversy with my original question but it appears that one or two others have similar sentiments about being able to control the AC while defrosting.

Steve - thanks, found the wire but will have to wait until the weekend to locate a switch position and route through the firewall.

Having the ability to use the AC to dehumidify is great and I have used it frequently in the past in previous vehicles - but I want to choose! My habit in winter is to have air directed to windshield and footwell for most of the time once the car has warmed up and I just don't need the AC cycling on all the time. I have driven on 4 continents (lived on 3) from the arctic to tropics, even had the outside of the car fog up due to high AC inside and high humidity outside!

Thanks for all the comments - I will report back when I have done the mod.

Gordon

goosegog · November 2003

Pathtomax: I've had that happen (not on the OB) and they can be repaired. You can get a kit and do it yourself or you can take it to a glass place. Doing it yourself often results in a slightly thicker line, but it works.

mikef11 · November 2003

The A/C and recirc issue has been discussed before and I've said about all that I can on it so I do not intiate the topic anymore. But I am ready to comment when someone else brings it up :-) It's good for Subaru to see that there are a number of people who do not like the present arrangement and would at least like an option. My preference would be to have a dip switch setting like on computers so that the owner can set the option he or she wants. (Ballistic, I think the same type of setting options would work for the CC operation as well). My dealer is looking forward to selling me an XT; he will sell me one, but he also will have to disable the A/C and recirc feature before I buy.

In another Edmunds discussion a link was provided to another site which had details on how to modify the micro switch behind the controller. If the link is not there, send me an E-mail and I'll send it to you.

If you disble the A/C feature, follow the advice given here and run the compresor at least once a month to keep seals lubricated.

Let us know how it turns out.

MikeF

paisan · November 2003

Should get together with the Kia Sorento folks. They are waging a war over there about this very topic!

I personally perfer the compressor being on, clears my windows much quicker (I can control it on my Trooper) and have tested it AC v. No AC and every time, it's the AC version that works faster.

-mike

stever · November 2003

Subbie chat in ~2 hours. Join in! Link is on the left or you can click on the fancy graphic at the top.

Steve, Host

ateixeira · November 2003

Big, big news at the chat. Great news for all the Subaru fans here. More incentive to show up!

-juice

otis123 · November 2003

2005 H6 Outback coming to the US sooner than April???

Ralph

ateixeira · November 2003

Full details are available in the Subaru Crew - Meet the Members thread, but to summarize, Subaru has invited Bob and me to be their special guests at the Detroit Auto Show from January 6-8.

Press days are 4-6, public days are 10 and later. That means we will have back stage access 4 days before the public! Cameras allowed, too. Plus a round table discussion with Subaru, so we can provide our feedback.

Very exciting score for the whole Crew. We'll try to get all your questions answered. The Subaru Legacy GT will debut and we will have full access to it.

-juice

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