Real-World Trade-In Values

rutger3 · May 2003

This is a great topic. The subject of the dealer cost when buying a new car is, by most experts opinions very important when trying to deal on a vehicle. Consumer reports,Edmunds and the like live by this creed. The invoice cost is now available everywhere. It never use to be that way,but the field has changed. Now I am not sure if this really should be the buyers business(if I'm a dealer then no way),but this is the nature of car buying in 2003. When buying a used car this info is not available which of course is in the dealers favor.
The reason I would like to know is so I am aware of if there really is room for movement from the dealer asking price. It is too easy to say just go for 'good value'. I can guarantee that the dealers idea of good value is different than mine. The dealer is at a distinct advantage against the customer so the more info I have the better. Even with the invoice cost on a new car the dealer makes money and has other info you do not have. The used car field is different because each dealers cost for the used car varies and can be significant.
As an example, if dealer A buys a car for $4000 and sells is for $7000, is that a better 'value' than dealer B who buys the same car for $2500 and sells it for $5000. In the first case the dealer would probably laugh at your offer of $5000 because it cost them $4000. The second dealer takes your 'good value' offer at $5000 because they only paid $2500. Why should the dealer have all the advantages? In other words,the dealer trade in value for your car has no range, but when making an offer as a seller the price should be a 'good value'.
BTW, then why is it the dealer wants to always know how much you owe on your trade instead of just offering you a 'good value'?

zueslewis · May 2003

" BTW, then why is it the dealer wants to always know how much you owe on your trade instead of just offering you a 'good value'? "

Because most buyers are payment buyers and your payoff has to be accurate for two reasons: (1) the dealer HAS to know how much money they're sending your bank!!! (2) the payoff is calculated in the grand scheme for payments, unless you don't care what the payments are...

chrisbgood · May 2003

I (hoping I'm an informed buyer) have already done the math on my payoff -- and I'll let the dealer know my expectations for a trade value. I calculate my own payments usually within $1.00 and pre-arrange all financing -- I will let the dealer have the financing if they can beat my % and terms I've already arranged (payment is the final piece of that -- I NEVER discuss payments with the dealer --- price is not payments -- I always calculate them the last time I borrowed the dealers calculator because I had another permutation that I'd failed to bring -- the maths' got to work for me).

On my last deal the dealer did undercut my Credit Union by 1/4% with a local bank. The terms were attractive. I took their financing. Good for them, good for me.

Usually I also don't talk trade until I've talked price and nibbled them to the number I'm looking for --which I'm up front about. Last two successful deals have taken less than 2 hours at the dealer including test drive, etc.

If I'm shopping I'm shopping to buy and I want to know the dealers out the door price -- what he can offer it to me for so I can take it out the door today.

The disgusting part of this? List price means nothing. If you talk to a Dodge dealer for example and you pay anywhere near list price you have failed. That's besides rebates -- Dodges (and most other domestics) sell for thousands less than the MSRP -- thousands less than the purported invoice price. That makes me very unsure of them -- negotiations are amiable but if we can cut through thousands of dollars below the invocie within minutes should I really trust the MSRP/invoice/Edmunds pricing????

Foreign cars have been closer to invoice. Much closer -- but even so usually under (only once at invoice). I tend to trust the foreign dealers more for the irrational reason that the price doesn't implode like it does at the domestic shops falling far below MSRP/lsit -- and the product does seem to last very well.

What I do have a hard time doing is buying used. When I look at barely used (1 year to 2 years) I find that most dealers have such a high price that in this market I can bargain better on a new vehicle and walk out the door for under the asking price of the used without much issue. On slightly older (3 to 4 years) I start to worry about domestic reliability and the foreign ones still have wayyyyyy to much price for the age. Older than that it and the field becomes much harder to pick from (ever look for a used foreign car of about 5-6 years in age with less than 50,000 miles and some of the common nice options (say leather, automatic, cruise, etc.)?)...

7 to 8 years is a very had field to pick from (milege starts to hurt and the nicer foreign names are still expensive [BMW] or money pits [Mercedes]).

dweller1 · May 2003

my friend did take the $$$ and trade in the solara. he did it today and same deal as i quoted. 400 over inv for 03 accord ex cp and traded in the toyo for 10k. I didnt even realize they still put vinyl in a decently appointed car like a Solara, but as i think about it you can get pleather (plastic leather) in a vw beetle also. Although i would never buy a car with pleather. just my personal preference...dweller

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... Give that man a cigar, a steak dinner at Ruth's and a 7 day trip to Alaska via Holland of America cruise lines -- $10 grand .. $400 over invoice .. for a 99 SE Solara with a 4 banger ..???

He caught someone in a coma .. hey God bless him, he did Greeeat, enjoy the Honda ... ! (of course, the UC Mgr might be lookin' for a job .l.o.l.)

Terry ;-)

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... The 01 is from Greece .? .. I'm just guessing, but BMW, like Volvo, Benz, etc, have a European build and delivery program .. I'm "assuming" that's what the change of ports are, -But- if so, BMW will have All the records for it and it's an easy trace .. the difference in a sport and a premium is "around" $500 on a resale deal .. the 01 is worth "around" 32/33ish, put a little this and that with a certify, then $36, and $37 would be just about all of it .. the 02, about the same because of the packages and the miles are just a tinge on the high side for an 02 ...

See what happens and let me know ...

Terry.

sandman46 · May 2003

Did you get my e-mail? Just curious, and if you did, can you help me?

The Sandman :-)

lanzz · May 2003

Terry,

Thanks for your info on the value of my '00 Camaro SS, I got 14,500 on a trade, which was almost exactly the number you said.

I leased an '03 Infiniti M45, which I am very happy with. Got a question - you seeing any of these go through the auctions yet? Seems like the resale on the car should be terrible, given the heavy incentives, and the relatively tepid reception it is getting in the market. Seems like a good car to lease, but not a good car to buy.

Thanks again - Ed

paolenz · May 2003

Hi Terry,

The '01 that had a port of entry from Greece was a European Delivery Order. The owner toured Europe with the car and ended up in Greece, hence the port of origin. The dealer won't budge from his asking price of 39K so I walked. The 'O2 530i is a loaner car and you are right about the mileage being a little bit high. I offered a price of 34K before I knew that it was a loaner car and the salesman said yes and I was on my way to pick up my car. However, when I got to the dealership, the person I was dealing with was not there- he was with a client test driving a car-so I decided to ask more questions about this car. A newbie salesman approached me and ask me if I needed help and that is when he told me about the history of the car. He even told me that the car was hit on the left side near the wheel well and they were willing to let it go for 37K. I almost laugh at the offer because he didn't know that I offered 34K for this car. I left without talking to the original salesman.

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... >> jiggle the wiring, water pump is out, A/C not working (in the past, adding freon has fixed it, but I have no idea if that's the fix this time around) << ..

Gheeez, your scaring me .. miles are ok for the year and it's a good color, the problem is, it's falling apart .. hey what do you want for 176k .. personally, I would be surprised if you saw $1,5 with all that potential work, the last time I looked, a compressor for this dude was $1,500 .. I dunno, sounds like a good time for a charitable event.!

Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... >> Regional differences must come into play in the car biz too. Terry's experiences with Subarus, for example, may not apply well to my New England market, (where Subies retain value better than elsewhere). <<

Like I was saying, that's why I need to know the area that a vehicle is in, the color, the options, the miles, etc. .. that's why it's a real good idea to read "past posts" before you speak .. or in this case, print.

Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

...... Popping sound ..? -- if you know it's going to cost $300 and you have a "written" estimate, then I wouldn't bother getting it fixed .. this way if the dealer says - ooh, it will cost $1,984.23 too fix it, you can drop the estimate in his lap and see his/her face get that "dead Mullet look" .. but a detail will help .. miles are ok for the year, sounds like a $3,5 vehicle on a trade --- down Retail Rd, get it fixed, cleaned, service and "ask" $6,900, and kiss it goodbye for $5,5/$6,5 ..

Good luck and let me know ...

Terry.

blh7068 · May 2003

How about a value for a 02 Maxima SE...

12k, majestic blue, auto, leather, a few minor(YES minor...:))scratches,(poor nissan paint). Actually it has all options except heated seats, traction control and navigation. Here in Oklahoma.

Thanks!

theworm · May 2003

I have a two-part question re: trade-in value, if you don't mind:

Part 1:
--------
trade in value...

San Francisco Bay Area
2000 Lexus GS300 - black on black
Premium package (electric/heated everything, 6disc CD, etc)
Navigation
25k miles

Prime condition (I'm a detailing fanatic) and fully serviced, 6 months left on original warranty.

Part 2:
-------
Trading b/c I'm looking at the Infinity G35coupe. Am I better off going to the Lexus dealer first and talking to their UC Manager, since I'd imagine this would be a prime car for them to keep & resell as a certified pre-owned (whereas the Infiniti dealer would be more likely to send it to auction)?

Thanks in advance!

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... Yep, Zues has hit this one .. most folks that sell a vehicle have a pay-off on their existing vehicle ..

Call the bank first, get yourself a 10 day pay-off and see what they do differently (if anything) then you can do all the paperwork right there, just make sure you have a contact and they can make sure they are around when you bring the buyer in, when it's all done, take Your tags off the vehicle and I'm sure he can bring a tag to get him home .. it's done everyday, no biggie, nothing too it.

Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... TMU .. hmmm, If it's a mistake, if the title got punched incorrectly, if the there was a real deal oop's -and- can be proven by DMV, Carfax, Chrysler service reports, etc .. then a fair retail price would be "around" $8/$8,5ish ..

If it ends up as a "Real TMU", and the miles were last clocked at 75k or whatever then it won't be worth $3,0 and $4,5 would just about kill it on the retail end .. right now, Concords aren't setting any sales records anyway ...

Terry.

steine13 · May 2003

...I would think that once you have a deal and you're confident the person is actually gonna come across with the $$, you might want to save everyone a bunch of hassle and get a short-term loan and pay it off. Maybe even once you're sure you're going to sell the car.

My credit union, for instance, has a 9.9% visa card and no cash advance fee. $10k for two weeks is going to cost, what, $1000/50*2 = $40 or so, it'd be worth it to me.

That way, you have the title in hand, and people know they can just fork over the money and drive off... and you dont' have to worry about getting 3 parties together.

-Mathias

dogmom2 · May 2003

That's why I want to get rid of it. I've spent so much money on it this year.

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... 100k on the Honda, not a biggy if the vehicle is clean, deep in the tire catorgory, service is fine .. probably has $4,5ish in it and a fair deal for both would be "around" $6,5ish ..

             The Protege' is a great little vehicle, miles are low, it's a LX .. so if it has a real good history, no kisses, no chemistry experiments in the back seat, might have $4ish in it .. a fair price for both would be "around" $6ish ..

           Lets see what happens ...

                    Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

....... Good morning John .. Sooo, you like the older women huh..?

It's a 92, it's a base right, RS, VL ..? no p windows, locks, etc .. it's an auto, 4dr and only has 29k -- if it's clean, No rust, looks, drives and feels like a 00, then it "might" see $1,2/$1,500 at the block .. a fair price for both on the retail side would be "around" $2,5/$2,9ish, probably not a bad little ride ...

Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

...... Hi Ed .. Wow ..! - that's quite a switch from a SS to a M45, if you don't mind me asking, why that particular vehicle ..?

Infiniti has some Great vehicles out right now, I feel the Q, M have kinda missed the boat .. but anyway, loaded up M's with all the stuff, had a sticker of about $47ish are doing "around" $34/35,0 with 5/6k ... thank goodness you leased it, cuz' there about as strong as "pond water" in the re-sale market.

Terry :-)

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... Sounds like it could be a nice one .. slider and Bose .. right .?

The miles are low, the color is right (make sure you check it out for any damage, not too many Maxima's out there with bad paint) .. these are nice vehicles and a great value on the market - dealer probably has $16ish in it, should be able to buy it for the $18's ...

Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... Some name .l.o.l. but good question.

The color is great for the area and the miles are super low - you shouldn't have any problems with a Infiniti dealer or any import dealers in that area, as long as you aren't trading at a Hyundai dealer you should be fine .. a clean, low mileage vehicle is great inventory to have anywhere, you should be seeing the $24's on a trade if it's "jam-up" super nice and needs -0- ...

Terry.

zueslewis · May 2003

...here's one for ya' - by karaoke buddy is looking for a van to replace his 233,000 mile Dodge Caravan - I've been trying to talk him into something newer for a year now.

...he's looking at the 15-pax Dodge B-350 in program form. What's a 2002 15-pax with 25-30K miles going for at auction?

rroyce10 · May 2003

..... 233k ...? he sure got his moneys worth.!

Super nice, super clean, dual air, power pack, 25kish .. high $13's, low $14's.

Terry.

zueslewis · May 2003

wants $17,999 for one with 28K, I thought that was steep - my buddy's the kind of guy I'd like in MY F&I box...he'll say yes all day long.

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... Should be able to buy it for the $16ish zipcode ...

rutger3 · May 2003

two more vechicles considering for son's first:
1998 Civic LX 4D,auto,84k,from a small used car dealer.asking $7000 with 6 month warranty.Needs front end alignment which he will do.
1997 Legacy L sedan,auto,87k from new car dealer with 99 day/3300mi warranty, asking $6500.
Any thoughts? thanks.

zueslewis · May 2003

still looking for that job as your auction assistant...no callback from Kelly.

Any ideas?

lanzz · May 2003

Terry,

Re: the switch from the SS to the M45... needed something bigger, wanted something nicer, and felt like I could not beat the features and performance of the M for the 'out the door' price I got.

The other things I liked were the Caddy DTS and the Lexus GS 430. DTS was stupid money and GM is not leasing in NY state (only that dumb SmartBuy) Even with a GMS discount, the DTS was big cake, and there were not a lot of nice used ones around that I could justify the money for. The GS is sweet, but real cash and it's hard to find a 430 - when you find one, new or used, there seems to be a premium attached.

Thanks for the info on the M45 resale, that is what I figured - nice to be a lessee on this one!

Ed

theworm · May 2003

Appreciate the quick response and the insight. BTW, also appreciate you and the other salesfolks' participation in the inconsiderate forums (tho I'm just a lurker there). I've still had more bad salesmen than good -- but nice to see that good ones are out there, and my last 3 buys have been excellent now that I'm not hesitant to walk out of a store to find one

BTW, TheWorm = long story

sandman46 · May 2003

Still considering the Sentra over the Corolla. The Sentra I can get in2 for less $ I think. Overall, the Corolla a better car except the brakes are still sucky. Dealer has some dealer cash on top of the rebate for the Sentra. Don't know what to do. Only will use it to commute to work and teens will also drive it, thus the reason for the better brakes, they hate my '96 Corolla.
HELP!!

The Sandman :-)
(P.S. The wife will get it within the year as her '01 Altima will be hitting 50k soon. My kid starts at Gainesville next month and we'll be racking up some miles on the Altima.)

mayerzd · May 2003

I've been looking for a used Mazda Protege5 for a couple of weeks now. I found a strange deal online and wanted to get your opinion on it. A guy in Texas is selling a 2002 Protege5, loaded with 10K miles, for $4,500 online. Obviously there's a catch. Here is a quote from the ad: "The vehicle is an unauthorized use recovery. Since it was registered to the insurance company, a new 'mileage unknown' title was automatically issued when it went to the auto auction after recovery. The digital odometer shows 10,000 miles which is the true mileage of the car. It is still under full warranty!".

What would I be getting myself into if I bought this car? At that price I'm willing to take some chances.

Thanks in advance,
drew

robr2 · May 2003

"unauthorized use recovery" sounds like a nice way to say "stolen and found"!!! LOL

Good Luck.

qbrozen · May 2003

how the heck did you find that one?

I would definitely want to get a good look at it first, but $4500 is definitely tempting from a consumer point of view. As long as there is nothing majorly wrong with it, seems like you'd get your money's worth of driving out of it.

dougb10 · May 2003

Better check very carefully to ensure they didn't recover this baby from a lake! Once a car has been submerged, it is pretty well toast. Anything that sounds too good to be true, generally is.

mayerzd · May 2003

I ran a Vehicle History Report on the Protege5 and the only issue that came up was 'Odometer Problem Record', which I already knew. Other than that, nothing.

I figure that I could pay a mechanic in Texas $100 bucks or so to do a complete check on the car before I bought it.

I have to agree with dougb10 though, it seems to good to be true and that makes me extremely leery.

zueslewis · May 2003

do is verify the warranty status through a Mazda dealer - CARFAX doesn't say jack about warranty status!

beachfish · May 2003

Thanks for the info on the '92 Cavalier. It's plain and unblemished and only ever so slightly faded. Could be pollen, the inside is full of it.

They're both realistic about the price, but it's hard for me to set a price for them when the seller is my eldest aunt and the buyer has been my neighbor for 23 years and bakes twice a week. I'll work it out.

I'm looking forward to the bus ride up I-64 past Charlottesville a lot more than the Cavalier ride back. I'd bum a ride from a friend, but I don't want to be seen driving a Cavalier

John

rutger3 · May 2003

what is a reasonable cost to pay for tags/title on a used car in New Jersey when getting new plates through a dealer. It seems to me most dealers try to make this a big profit area.

akangl · May 2003

Oh come on, Cavalier's aren't that bad. My mom drives a 96 Cavalier with over 170k on it, only thing she's done to it is a starter, fuel pump, and basic maintance. She's had the car since it was a year old with 12k on it.

suvshopper4 · May 2003

In Jan '01, the dealership charged me $24.50 Registration/Title Fee on a new vehicle, but transferring my old tags.

Documentary Fee, a separate charge, was $95.00. It is now at least $105.00 at the same dealership.

Hope this helps.

Viva la Rutgers' sons!

jon130 · May 2003

Have a Red 99 Alero GLS with all options on it, little high on miles (72k) that I need to get rid of. It's still a nice car, though it continues to have problems. Thankfully something told me to get an extended warranty on it when I got it 2 years ago. Car's in nice shape, never any major body damage. Front leather seats show some wear, but that's just the quality of the leather I think. Anyone got a good idea of what I should expect for a trade-in price?

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... >> insurance company, a new 'mileage unknown' title was automatically issued when it went to the auto auction after recovery. The digital odometer shows 10,000 << ..

Other than this sounding like a Repo and a vehicle with TMU, everything is going your way -and- who knows what else -- does it have a 50mm gun attached to it ..? -- NEXT.!

Terry :-)

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... Hey Ed, .. I like the DTS, I have had a few and Really enjoyed them a lot. I was just driving a 430, I picked it up with 2,800 mi and drove it til' 5,500, also real nice vehicles .. the gig is to find a real nice 02 DTS with 9/10k, you can probably find one for under $34 .. I will interested in how you like the M45.

Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

...... The color is not bad, miles are waaay tall, no help there, you get a little help with it being a GLS and hopefully a 4dr .. if the tires are deep and it doesn't look like the Boy Scouts were using their BB guns on it, no kisses, no rust, no damage then you might be seeing the tall $5's on a trade ..

Terry.

dweller1 · May 2003

Friends 2000 prelude was totaled in an accident, not his fault. Other drivers insurance com. is offering 16800 payoff. car had 48000 miles , in georgia,power moonroof, alloys, red exterior, cloth int(leather not an option for this model year),tires had 2,400 miles on them(he has a receipt), handshaker,car was purchased new and was a cream puff, still. I was thinking insurance companies should give you retail plus sales tax, without a fight, especially since their insured caused this accident, not my friend. Is 16800 all the money in this situation? thx in advance ...dweller

jon130 · May 2003

Thanks Terry. That's about what I was figuring. There's a dime sized ding in the drivers door, probably as a result of some person considerately throwing their car door into it. Paint isn't broken. If it's worth it, I might actually see about getting it removed before I offload the car. It's actually a very clean little coupe and certainly doesn't act like it has 70+ on it. It's a fun car, I just don't know if I can trust it after my warranty runs out. Also, I'm looking at Celicas and Tacomas. Seeing some REALLY inflated pricing compared with TMV pricing. Can that pricing really be that inflated? Once again, thanks for your help. It's really nice to be able to know in advance if my numbers are right.

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... Right now is a great time to find a inexpensive Tacoma, hot sellers in the winter, get cool come spring (depending on where you live) - Spring has sprung .. Celica's are funny little dudes, can't give them away in the winter, get large in the Spring, but not everyone is lookin' for a 2dr .. just take your time and shop.

good luck ...

Terry.

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... $16,800 ....? Whoa, that's all the money - but don't forget to ask for the TAX.!

Terry.

Real-World Trade-In Values

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