Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

chicagojo · December 2004

It's a Honda Pilot, so not exactly super-luxury car, but still...

That's a good idea to have an independent shop look at it. Wish I would have thought of that yesterday when all this happened.

If there is frame damage, where does that leave me, since the dealership is being a real jerk about this whole situation.

chicagojo · December 2004

If the car was leased, or if I'd had it for a few years or even a few months, it wouldn't be that big of a deal to me. But it's not leased and it was only 3 days old, so it's a bit of a different situation. One of the reasons I bought this car (Honda Pilot) was for safety...now I feel like I have a car whose safety is potentially compromised through the dealership's mistake and they are not even willing to apologize. Very frustrating.

Does anyone know what the proper channels are for providing negative feedback about a dealership to an automotive company (assuming I'm not able to come to some sort of satisfactory resolution with the dealership?)

rroyce10 · December 2004

....... Depending on the damage, it being only a few days old and based on what you are saying, then the dealer should just replace it from another vehicle in stock .. if I were you, I would just call the lender and explain the situation .. good customer relations is what keeps a dealer alive ...

Terry.

jglackin · December 2004

Within a few days, you will receive a call from Honda Customer Service asking about your purchase experience. As someone whose income was partially based on those surveys at one point, try to let your emotions over this incident sway your answers on questions not related to it.

I can remember customers that purchased cars and had a negative experience with the service department answering 'completely dissatisfied' to every question - even those like "manner in which you were greeted" and "knowledge of product features". Answer your survey questions honestly, and ask (I believe Honda does phone surveys) for an address for customer relations concerns.

ksccts · December 2004

What do you guys think of this incident?

http://www.goacetech.com/Story.php?story_id=61808885&category- - =Automotive

Tragedy.

driftracer · December 2004

like that, or the guys in the car could've put together a story to help the driver avoid a wrongful death/negligent homicide lawsuit.

I don't care if the salesman took the car to 125 mph...it doesn't mean the driver/potential buyer had to speed and drive like a moron.

The only people benefitting from that accident will be lawyers.

ksccts · December 2004

I agree. His defense is "the salesman made me gun it"?

And, of course, in the finest American legal tradition, the family of the dead salesman is also suing the poor girl who go hit by this guy.

Poor girl.

driftracer · December 2004

luckily, the law is on her side.

Bear in mind that it's common practice to include all parties in a deal like this, whether they're at fault or not. They then fight it out, and the person suing everyone deals with whomever is left.

I'll give a separate example if it'll make more sense and the hosts don;t mind an off-topic post.

ksccts · December 2004

Common practice doesn't make it right and doesn't lessen the stress on the innocent victim. Imagine being sued and having to deal with the stress involved when you are in that situation purely by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have a great legal system but unfortunately it's not perfect.

isellhondas · December 2004

I keep a tight leash on my customers during demo drives. I once made a young punk pull over. I tried to just leave him standing there but he knew what I was going to do and jumped into the passenger's seat.

I didn't say a word to him as I drove back. when I pulled into the lot, I said GET OUT!

And that was it.

jasmith52 · December 2004

Here's our present legal system:

BMW doing 95 MPH plows into Saturn making left turn. Court determines that accident is 99.9 percent the fault of BMW driver but 0.1 percent the fault of Saturn driver cause she didn't turn blinker on.

Now if BMW driver doesn't have any money in these multi-million dollar settlement guess who has to pay the entire judgement. You guessed it the Saturn driver due to the "deep pockets" laws.

Is that justice and is this settlement just??

jglackin · December 2004

Obviously we all have to make assumptions since we weren't there, but drawing from my own experiences....

I threatened to call the police (w/cell phone in hand) when one customer was driving aggressively, went off route and refused to pull over, (he pulled over and I drove back), and

I ended the test drive of one of the owner's friends once because of aggressive driving (he pulled over and I drove back).

Not to speak ill of those involved, but I'm not sure that I would allow one of our younger salespeople to take one of our "sportier" cars out with a group of their contemporaries w/o verifying our test drive route first.

kyfdx · December 2004

"I didn't say a word to him as I drove back. when I pulled into the lot, I said GET OUT!"

Hey.. just like Arnold in The Terminator!!

rroyce10 · December 2004

...... Very sad for the salesman and his family ... but I have a feeling after all the smokes clears, the dealer will be paying Big Money to the passengers because of their whiplash and broken fingers .... we don't charge the folks that are guilty anymore, we charge the ones with the deepest pockets, what a system ........

Terry.

Kirstie_H · December 2004

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h

Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

ksccts · December 2004

Excellent post, Terry.

steine13 · December 2004

That is how I understand it, too.

"Great legal system" my foot.

I suppose it's better than the legal system of, say, Nigeria...

-Mathias

weaselinsuit · December 2004

Bear in mind that I am commenting from a Canadian perspective but the whole thing will be fact driven. No doubt the driver of the BMW was speeding based upon the reports. However, with respect to the Saturn driver, generally there's a pretty high onus on the left turning driver. The onus can be discharged of course, depending upon the facts and the conduct of the driver driving straight ahead. It all depends upon what the road was like, i.e. did the hill prevent the Saturn driver from seeing the BMW, particularly given it's speed?

As for the dealership being on the hook, their garage policy contains a liability coverage. It was their car being driven with their permission by the test driver. The salesman should have told the punk to slow down or pull but didn't.

Unfortunately, that makes the dealership vicariously liable. The underlying theory of tort law is not to punish the wrongdoer but to compensate the injured party. Equally unfortunately, there is a public policy decision that insurance should be there to pick up the pieces. Since the dealership, through their salesman, was best placed to control the situation, they're on the hook. That's not to say that the driver is absolved of any responsibility but generally the liability policy of the car respondes first with the driver's own policy, maybe, picking up anything over the limits of the garage policy.

Lesson in all of this, do as a number of you have suggested, make the punk pull over and take back the wheel. If they refuse, call the cops, it may not stop an accident but it shows due diligence to take every effort to avoid one.

rworrell · December 2004

FYI, I took over a lease of a Saab 9-5 wagon and, as part of my due diligence, I got the VIN from the seller (lessor) and called the local Saab dealer who would be doing my service and asked them to look up the VIN and the service history. They told me the same thing. I explained that I was assuming the lease and not just calling to try to find out info, but they'd have none of it. I called Saab USA and asked if this was their policy and they said "No"--the dealer should help a prospective buyer out with a service history. Maybe you should try to call Saab USA and see what they say--they were very nice and helpful to deal with.

Great car, BTW--I had almost no problems with mine and now my wife has an '03 Aero wagon.

rroyce10 · December 2004

**likely traveling more than 90 m.p.h. when he crashed in August, killing a car salesman --- The police report said authorities believe the driver of the BMW, Christopher Maher, 20, of Inverness, was traveling "probably in excess of double the posted speed limit" of 45 m.p.h.**

**Unfortunately, that makes the dealership vicariously liable. The underlying theory of tort law is not to punish the wrongdoer but to compensate the injured party** ....

Hmm, I must not get out much .. the only injured party I see here is the salesperson and his family, probably because he's dead ... the driver should have been charged with manslaughter - oop's thats right, we don't do the responsibility thing anymore ...

Terry.

turboshadow · December 2004

...that it is called the 'legal system,' not a 'justice system.'

Truth in advertising at its most ironic....

Jamie

Kirstie_H · December 2004

We've veered off topic here - the US (or any other) legal system isn't appropriate for this board. Thanks!

stickguy · December 2004

to the salesfolks, this raises a good question. How do you sell performance cars, without letting the buyer actually try out the performance?

Isell, I know in the past you restricted S2000 buyers (that is, no joy rides), but once you had the deposit, how much did you allow the pending buyer to exercise the car?

To me, it's a tough sell saying it accelerates fast, handles like a race car, etc., but you have to take my word for it that you will like it?

jglackin · December 2004

I'm at a C.J.D. store, so the only things 'performance related here are anything with the Hemi, the Crossfire, and the Viper. Vipers don't get driven - in fact, most buyers have them towed away. The Crossfire, not really being about power, generally attracts a mature audience so joy rides are not usually an issue. That leaves the Hemi. That's in several products now, and everyone wants to feel its power. We keep people on a straight, flat road with a speed limit of 45mph. I personally don't mind a brief full throttle stomp, but I always say something like, "Keep in mind that this road is heavily patrolled by the local police." That calms everyone down right away. Also, keep in mind that performance does not mean that you can drive 90mph - I used to do that in an '86 4cyl Turismo (not a performance car by any stretch).

Also, before a test drive I have had several minutes of conversation with the customer about their wants/needs. This pre-qualification is necessary, especially with these kinds of cars, so that everyone is as sure as they can be that all involved are on the same page.

driftracer · December 2004

respect for the break-in period on the new car/truck. Drag race style launches aren't something that should be happening, no matter what.

audia8q · December 2004

The backwards hat, pants falling down crowd often stops by to test drive our RX-8 and Mustangs. Of course they get huffy and obnoxious when we question their abilities to buy and insure the car before any test drive. Legit customers seem to fully understand the questioning. The ones who get noisy are usually noisy because they have been exposed as a joyrider.

We will allow a customer to give our performance cars a spirited test drive but if they get nutty or questionable the ride ends quickly.

inukeu2 · December 2004

I would like to ask a question of this forum to find out what the salesman's side of the issue. I gather that these "surveys" have become the measuring tool for all automotive transactions (be they purchase or service). Being a scientist I believe in gathering meaningful data if it eventually impacts the current process. To my question...

Recently my wife and I purchased a luxury SUV from the lone brand dealership in our area. After a fair bit of haggling over price I was told that I could only get the negotiated price if I gave the dealership all "10's" on the survey. Is this fundamentally wrong? I understand that training dollars and vehicle allotment and God forbid INCOME may hinge on these surveys but c'mon. Ultimately we can see where these surveys will end up. Each dealership will bolster their score with all 10's and they survey becomes insignificant. From now on I will be less likely to give the perfect score unless I am overwhelmed with service.

Lastly I would like to express my theory on negotiating price on these vehicles which may give insight to my survey responses. I believe that inherently there is some value (to me) to every vehicle. Some cars are nowhere close to a purchase price so I do not frequent those dealerships. When shopping vehicles I shop for many brands and determine where the line falls for that vehicle. If the value to me is enough to get me laughed out of the dealership I do not go. So when negotiating on price I realize the dealership has to make money and I want to feel fulfilled. Now I have come to realize emotion can have NO place in this process. The line that I negotiate at is what I'm willing to pay... If the dealership cannot sell the vehicle for that amount of money then than you for your time. I have very little tolerance for salesmen that would lead you to believe that you are taking food from their children's mouths! You're not "doing me any favors" when you give me this price. Supply and demand is all it boils down to. I've walked from many dealerships without ill feelings for the staff but with an understanding that the two lines (value to me and their margin) did not meet. I refuse to give a salesman a score of 10 if he tells me that I am "making it very hard on him". One last note. If the amount of time that I spend taking up the salesperson's time has anything to do with it, it is negligible. All of my automobile transaction have taken less than four hours. Let me know your side of the story. I'd love to hear what you guys think.

inukeu2

jasmith52 · December 2004

well this topic has been covered - ad nauseum.

Firstly - I am not a salesman however I do understand how these surveys work. On a gross scale the intent of these surveys are to improve the sales/delivery process and improve customer satisfaction. However the system is set up as a pass/fail system where any score other than 10 is viewed as a zero.

The surveys really impact the profit(s) available to a dealership/salesman so thats why they are important.

However they are NOT a scientific sample of the buying process. Many people buy a car and because the dealership holds out for a better price or the floor mat had a skuff in it, people give a poor score even though the customer has been treated fairly. Some people use these scores to somehow get even over perceived wrongs.

How would you feel if your salary was set by some goofy opinions based on flippant information.

Per your buying a car opinions, well that's the system we have based on how people choose to spend their money. Dealerships with fixed prices or standard practices are soon run out of business by dealerships that undercut the fixed prices by $20.

driftracer · December 2004

close is a good as anything else, like "sure, I'll get you some factory floormats, but we're done on price at that point".

The dealership lives and dies by those scores, just the way it is. The salesman gains or loses certification and additional income based on personal CSI scores; the dealer is allocated for vehicles and certain facets in the service department via these scores.

I have no respect for a salesman who uses the "you're taking food off my table" notion, that's just a really weak salesman.

Goes with the same notion, though, of how many consumer make up their own stats (numbers) on new and used vehicles to "negotiate" the price of the new car and value of their trade. Weak, dishonest, no matter which side of the table you're on.

kyfdx · December 2004

It really hasn't been a good test drive, if the greenpea doesn't immediately quit his job when you get back.. ;-)

gkbenji · December 2004

The indy dealder called me back today with a followup, and said she learned the reason they couldn't give me the service history was because I wasn't the owner. Apparently if I went back today, they'd let me have it without problems. FWIW, the service rep did say it was a US legal issue and not a manufacturer policy, Saab or otherwise.

jglackin · December 2004

Driftracer -

I agree, and our surveys are divided into numerous sections. Never have I used the survey in negotiations, but after I go through the delivery of the vehicle I bring out a copy of the survey and explain to the customer how important the survey is to me and specifically the questions relating to me. More importantly, I ask them to return it, not matter how they fill it out - we all know that satisfied folks are less likely to mail them back.

My first pay plan had a serious CSI component. Your weekly salary was based on CSI. Essentially CSI>98 = salary and bonuses...CSI<=97 = no salary or bonus. For those of you not in the business...sell 20 cars...average 8 surveys back...if 7 are 100's and 1 is a 75...you just got a 97 CSI. The surveys are brutal and will never be a real measure of anything since they can be bought and are swayed by emotion so easily.

driftracer · December 2004

service - was I was a service manager, owners at both stores I was SM at wanted CSI based pay - anything short of 99% got the service advisors NO bonus, just base pay.

That makes a difference between getting $2,000 or $2,000 plus a $2,000 bonus (on an average month).

isellhondas · December 2004

And that is just not right! Service customers tend to be an unhappy bunch anyway sometimes.

One bad survey under that program would kill you.

driftracer · December 2004

so we had service advisor turnover, which only made handling customers tougher, making CSI worse...

Shouldn't let those bean counter-types who don't understand the car business run a car dealership. It's not an accounting firm, after all.

Kirstie_H · December 2004

Let's cover this in our Surveys discussion.

insane · December 2004

Hello,

Not sure if this is the right place to go, so here goes:

I'm considering buying a used car, but the seller still owes $25K on the car, hence a title lein.

I have cash on hand to make the purchase, but what steps do I take if I were to purchase it from the seller. It doesn't seem wise to give the seller the cash until the title clears - yes?

Thanks in advance

driftracer · December 2004

he can't get a clear title until he has the money to clear the loan...

I would go to a notary and draw up an agreement - still beware that there may be insurance, and certainly registration, issues for you until you have the title.

insane · December 2004

Thanks, Driftracer

The seller claims to have the money to clear the title but hasn't done so because he has a 0% loan.

In circumstances like this, how does one go forward - do I put a down payment or pony up the entire amount?

kyfdx · December 2004

Notarized sale papers at the courthouse (or wherever you transfer cars). You won't be able to complete the transfer until the lien clears, but you'll have everything on the right forms..

Then, you have the cashier's check made out to him AND his lender, and send off the check to the lender along with copies of the transfer paperwork... They send you release of lien papers and send him a check for the difference between what he owes and what you paid for the car..

Generally, you have to wait to take possession of the car until all of this is done..

regards,

kyfdx

insane · December 2004

Pardon my ignorance,

But when you say sale paper, do you meant the agreement drawn up by the seller and I, and must the agreement be notarized at the court house or just any notary public?

Finally, the seller will still owe $7K on the loan after I pay him the price we agreed upon. That means if I were to send in my Cashier's check to the lending institution, he would still need to come up with the other $7K to pay off the loan.

Since he claims he has the cash to pay off the loan, would it unreasonable for me to ask he clears his title before I pay him in full? Assuming that could be done, what would be a reasonable amount I should give towards down payment - %?

jglackin · December 2004

Another possibility of how to protect yourself...since that's your ultimate goal, right? What is the seller's intention? Is he going to purchase a vehicle? If he is, we are accustomed to doing 'courtesty trades' for customers. His benefit - some tax savings on the new car (depending on the state where you live). Your benefit - dealership paper trail.

kyfdx · December 2004

In my state, there is a specific form that has to be filled out if both parties are residents of the state.. It is required to transfer the car... In my example above, he would need to also send in a cashier's check along with yours to completely pay off the car.

You definitely want any transfer papers or bill of sale notarized..

And, yes... the best of all possible worlds is that he pays off the car and obtains clear title first... but, it is likely he will want some kind of firm monetary commitment from you, before he pays off his 0% loan... How much? I don't know... I always get the willies giving too much real cash to someone I don't know..

If he "knows" he is going to sell this car for sure...whether to you or someone else.. then he should have no problem paying it off first... but, if he is just "testing the waters" and may decide to keep the car, then of course he won't want to do that.

regards,

kyfdx

insane · December 2004

Thnaks for the answers...

I have a much better idea on how to go forwards.

jglackin,

The seller is moving to NYC and no longer needs his car.

insane · December 2004

Thnaks for the answers...

I have a much better idea on how to go forwards.

jglackin,

The seller is moving to NYC and no longer needs his car.

jglackin · December 2004

make sure everything is done 'above board', notarized, done in triplicate, signed 10 times, etc.

Another point to make here is that (unless this car is very rare) there is probably another car just like this one somewhere close. Try one of the used car search sites - you may get one for less, the same or just a little more, but with no potential aggravation.

echodog1 · December 2004

Hi there,

I'm trying to help my folks get a good deal on a new

Toyota. How much hassle is it to buy a car out of state to register in NJ? How does one do it?

racer63 · December 2004

The worst part about it is that you may have to pay the sales tax when you register the vehicle at DMV, as well as have to get the vehicle inspected. When I did it I took the manufacturer's Certificate of Origin to get an original NJ title. Basically works just like doing a private owner used car transaction.

dbauer · December 2004

if its within a reasonable distance, the selling dealer may send someone to the DMV with you to oversee the completion. i used to be in a metro area on a state border, and we did that all the time.

pka · December 2004

My question...when you buy a used car from a dealer...do you have to pay sales tax?

what about from a private seller...do you pay sales tax to the DMV when you register it?

suppose you register a car in one state --pay sales tax to DMV because the car was bought in another state and a few weeks later have to move to a different state---do you have to pay the difference in sales tax when you register the car again? is the tax refunded? for example...suppose you bought a car in NY and did not pay any tax to the dealer but paid VA sales tax at VA DMV. Now two weeks later you have to move permanently in Delaware (no sales tax)--is the tax refunded? or if you have to move to a state where the tax rate is higher---do you have to pay the difference?

please someone help...

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