when it becomes obvious that their message is all that is important to them, and any responses that are not in complete agreement mean little or nothing. That is the sign of a closed mind. I think people here have dealt very patiently with carnivalsc, and see zero movement on her part to understand the various sides of the car-buying experience.
There is no conversation when only one person is talking...
I sooooo badly want to post something that is so sarcastic, rude, offensive but yet so funny that it is killing me. If only the hosts would take a short vacation we all would be laughing right now. Oh well, anarchy will have to wait for another day.
Quite honestly, this is a product of the lawyers and the judges. One customer makes an acusation, whether it's regarding a bad or good dealer, and EVERY other dealer in that municipality, whether it be county, state, etc. has to go by that ruling. Whether it makes good customers, dealers, and employees pay extra for the extra time, expense, lawer fees, equipment or not.
It is protecting the corporation, but again, its protecting them from the same people who file lawsuits over a door closing on their foot or tripping on a nonexistent piece of dustbunny on the floor at the grocery store.
Again, it's rule by fear, rather than rationale. I don't agree with the whole situation, but that's the way our society seems to be headed.
I don't make the laws or rule, just abide by them.
And try to earn customers' business, and trust while making a living.
As you all said, books don't buy cars. I took the van to have it certified for sale on Ebay, the person who was to do that saw the condition, service records, compared the prices already on ebay, and vans advertised in our area, and bought the van for his sister.
What I want to know is who is in the business of certifying cars for sale on e-bay??
i've been living under a rock i guess... but you made my point terry.
obviously these people are buying vehicles that aren't appropriate for their financial situation...either no one ever pointed out that when they get done paying the interest on the vehicle, that car / "deal" is way too expensive for them and hurts them or they didn't understand it when it was pointed out to them.
it's not like i've been this "smart" and "lived within my means" all my life.
when i was young, i spent more than i'd like to admit on rent and recreation. yes, i had fun. would i have done it knowing what i know now? (rhetorical question)
i honestly feel bad for those living pay-check to pay-check where one unexpected bill tosses them into the downward spiral from which they may never recover, even if their situation is the result of poor judgement rather than unfortuante circumstances.
i like their high-end rides, but i like not having the fiscal pressure much more.
When you can borrow money for 5 years at a low rate-it makes perfect economic sense to do so.When we purchased our Acura 2 years ago they offered 2.9% financing for 5 years.At the time 5 year treasuries were yielding 4ish.So instead of plucking 22k down and buying the car outright-I put the least amount down that I could (1k) and invested the remaining 21k in treasuries.For the next 5 years I will earn more on the Trasuries than I will pay on the Acura-Why wouldn't someone do this?
Well they would if they had your perspective on money... and the cash. But very few people have the cash to buy a $5k car, much less a $21k one. Your point is valid, but applies to very few buyers.
It still would make sense for a payment buyer with self control to buy on a 60 or 72 month note if they either: - put the difference into an investment vehicle that earned more than the cost of the loan, or - doubled up the payments and paid it off early, maybe even in 36 months.
Either way is a solid means to save money. Alas, however payment buyers with self control are not a lot more plentiful than cash buyers. Most walk in with an upside-down beater with 60 month note and want to buy a new beater for small $$/mo. Right Terry?
long term financing also makes sense if you plan on keeping the vehicle beyond the term which you have financed.
i was faced with the same dilemma when i bought my car in 2002 - finance for 48 months, and look at payments over $300 (i was just out of college) or stretch it to 60 months, knowing i was going to keep the car for more than 5 years, and knowing that if i hit rough times, i could have a lower base payment to worry about. i put $5000 down (i have a sentra se-r spec v) and made payments of over $300 when i could, and base when i couldnt - it worked well for me, and i am currently NOT upside down! cant say that for many people these days!
It's always interesting to read the "Smart Shopper" boards and observe the distressed, uninitiated outsider, who is trying to vent and hoping for sympathy and assistance, get ripped by the sales professionals who inhabit these boards... the "Pros", if you will.
In the most recent case, the Pros, apparently frustrated by carnivalsc's disinclination to seize their advice and play the game by their generally accepted rules, resorted to name calling (TROLL). And a host played along. Hey guy's, let's play nice and follow the rules.
From the Membership Agreement: "If you wish to take issue with the statements of other Edmunds.com Forums members or Edmunds.com staff, please engage in healthy, mature debate and not immature behavior or name-calling. Civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Edmunds.com Forums."
By the way. By my understanding, the term "troll" refers to someone who posts inflamitory statements solely for the purpose of eliciting a response, ie: "trolling for a response". It appeared to me that carnivalsc was looking for help, in her own fashion, and was surprised and upset when she got dumped on.
I'd say that sympathy was extended to carnivalsc in numerous posts, and reasonable advice - from sales people as well the same as others - was extended and rejected. Instead, she found an even better example of sleaze, a screamer ad, and used it to further indict the entire automotive profession. I think people treated her with amazing restraint considering that she has not accepted a word that was offered, or backed off of her blanket accusations. She didn't get "ripped", she got answers. If she (or you) don't agree with the answers, jump in and express an opinion.
She vented, then looked for more to vent over, and has not taken any advice at all. Yet she has continued to stir the pot. That looks to me as if she is looking to raise a response, which results in the troll label.
Do you have a point, or just some more blanket accusations tossed out before you run behind your interpretation of the member agreement?
it takes a "special" person to be in the car business. We have a thick skin, able to take abuse from others, able to laugh at ourselfs and our mistakes, be understanding, competitive and much more. We take abuse and give abuse to our fellow workers. It is all in good clean fun. Everyone has to have some form of venting to survive. This is a "car board" with "car people" that read and post to help others and ourselves in our profession. If you go to a rap concert you will probably here a few bad words and if you are on an automotive site that has people in the car industry you will probably get a few remarks that you may take the wrong way. Everyone here is here to help others and not here to make fun of peoples problems.
truth is that we negotiate for a living. The very best at this business are extremely intelligent, well spoken, charasmatic and have a great sense of humor and time. You do not want to get in a war of words with that person. The internet is dangerous because people can express feelings that they would not say to someones face. I am confident that if someone was really trying to hurt someones feelings they could of said much harsher statements then what was said.
I went back and re-read all the posts from the person your defending....I see alot of people offering suggestions and help....from the poster your defending I see a condescending, I'm right and everyone else is wrong attitude. So most gave up and decided to move on...
.."apparently frustrated by carnivalsc's disinclination to seize their advice and play the game by their generally accepted rules...
the help she got was from people who can help...and the generally accepted rules work well.....but the poster seems interested in everything but actually buying the car...the folks on here were tryng to get the poster on track to make the process easier....but based on the replies she is looking for somebody to confirm her thinking not to make it easier to buy a car.
if your credit score is in the high 600's to mid 700's...then there's a good chance you will qualify.
Too low a FICO score and (believe it or not) a perfect score of 800 can hurt your chances.
I can get a 1.9 or 2.9 with my score of 677.
Remember the fine print on those APR offers says "TO WELL QUALIFIED BUYERS".
Get your credit report (Free once a year) from a place like eqifax and get your FICO score as well (may have to pay for that).
If the dealer says that you don't qualify and that you just missed it, try letting them know that the sale is contingent on the lower APR, they may help you out.
ONLY tell them this after the car price has been negoiated, not before.
well, our CA drivers licenses also have scan strips, and are routinely requested during any credit card transaction with humans (machines just ask you to sign).
Point of my original question was to see if this scanning process acts as a "filter". I'm not inclined to waste a dealer's time, but can't do the impulse approach for expensive purchases.
I would probably buy a Toyota from you too. Employed by a large corporation, regulated by the state and dealing with myriad customer issues on a daily basis, I understand your point(s). Don't necessarily disagree with them.
I just don't buy the assertion that the expense of video taping every transaction is justified by the 1 out of 5-10k transactions (I'm guessing here) that MIGHT cause a problem that can't be resolved anywhere but a courtroom. And at the same time, being sold as "for the customer's benefit."
I also agree with you however - the courts are broken.
If I understand correctly you are saying when you use a credit card the merchant asks to see your driver's license? Occasionally we run across that and the reason given is "to protect you" meaning the customer. I then remind them that Mastercard does not require identification to be shown if the card is signed and when swiped through the machine comes back as okay.
I had one manager of a store get out his store manual to show me where it says that had to be done. It didn't say that; it was his interpretation.
If I'm paying part of a car purchase then I might accept a need for identification, but not for the run-of-the-mill purchase.
Oh, I file a complaint on each merchant on Mastercard's website that they required identification (or had a minimum purchase amount or whatever rule).
Oh, I file a complaint on each merchant on Mastercard's website that they required identification (or had a minimum purchase amount or whatever rule).
Lets assume you are buying a key in a dealership. The cashier asks for your ID. You then say something like, "you do not need it, MC doesn't require that". The cashier, just doing what they were told to do, looks confused and amazed and stands there a moment and says that it is for your protection. You then would either: show ID and buy your $3 key or not show ID and leave or show ID, complain the whole time, and then report it to MC.
>The cashier, just doing what they were told to do,
That's usually the problem: the cashier has no idea of what and why, they just do. I ask for the manager. Explain briefly to them. It's a flip based on how difficult the manager is whether I leave the purchase for them to reshelve or buy to get the credit receipt to give the numbers to Mastercard. Often the item is available somewhere else easily and I'll just leave the manager standing looking dumb.
It takes 2 to tango, and Carnival gave as good as she got. Do you really think people here wait for the uniformed and then rip them to shreds for the mere sport of it? Do you see nothing in her posts that might make folks here get turned off? Do you not see that there was a reason that each time I read her posts George Costanza's Mom's voice played in my head at 45 speed? Who invented Liquid Soap and Why? Why is it that when I go into the restroom at work, invariably someone has printed out reams of news stories fromthe internet on Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes torrid relationship and left them in the stall I've chosen?
You picked up on my point about the cashier doesn't know or care why she asks for ID. The second point is we can handle things by calmly explaining ourselves or by acting like a fool. It appears you handle yourself well and that is appreciated by all.
For myself, I try to pick my battles and showing ID to anyone who wants to see it is OK with me.
For the past several days some of us have tried hard to help someone who recounted being treated in a manner that was unpalatable to most of us. We either helped or we didn't, whatever, we all tried as best we could and that's all we can do.
It is time we moved beyond that issue now and continue the on-topic commentary that is threaded amongst the inappropriate personal slams that are being posted here.
If anyone has any issue with how a discussion is hosted, the proper action is to email the host. If anyone thinks any particular post is inappropriate, the proper action is the same.
Let's dispense with the personal criticisms all around and get back to questions for car dealers that actually have to do with buying cars, instead of continuing these comments about those who are posting here.
ok...maybe I'm old fashioned. I actually find it refreshing if a retailer of any kind asks to see a photo id when I use a credit card for purchase. I think the reason there is so much fraud is because not enough of this is done....
however.....if your id is being scanned into some sort of blackhole machine that puts you on a never ending 3rd party list...that is beyond approach and I would fight that tooth and nail.
Now for my dealer question...How come it seems that I cannot get anyone to sell me a 2005 honda accord lx w/auto trans for a reasonable price (even a touch under 18000 would be a good start) in Chicago?
I'm cute, don't smell, have good credit and want to buy asap......do I offend?
Where have all the dealers gone.......I guess I'll wait for that so-called July 18th Honda clearance that is being cleverly hidden on the honda.com website...
I just took a quick look at edmunds pricing for the car you want....it appears invoice is around $19,000 and edmunds TMV is around $19,490......Now I assume there is some dealer money but honda doesnt throw money around like chevy. It looks to me like your offers are a bit light....maybe craig (Isellhondas) will pipe in with some suggestions.
oh isell..your just being silly now...anyone in their right mind can find a true invoice price that the dealer buys the car for (which is typically 1000-1500 below your listed invoice). Holdbacks, floor incentives, end of the year incentives blah blah blah all figure in. Heres one to check (apa.ca)
I am not in anyway against a salesperson making a living, but why such desparity amoung so many offers?
Maybe I didn't give enough info on the trim...2005 Accord LX w/auto trans..4 door.
TMV on this site is 18,519.00. That is a general national average. I am in a large market with alot of competition, looking to buy at the end of the model year, new redesign coming out Sept 06, honda.com advertising a july 18th sale (without details yet), loads of folks on the honda forum claiming prices as low at 17,400 incl dest only, great credit, pre-approved and like I said I'm really cute. :shades:
Why oh why is asking for something close to 18000.00 out of the question....???
did you try an online site like carsdirect? not that i would go that route myself, but the invoice prices they are claiming are pretty "fantastic". it also looks like there is a steep (3K?) diff between a manual and an automatic...
so can you drive a stick? if it were me - i'd be going for the manual transmission version!
drove manual all the time when I lived in more rural area...i'm in a heavy traffic (aka sitting in bumper-to-bumper all the time) and just find it one less thing to get mad about when I don't have to shift.
Again, I never knock that fact that someone is trying to make a living, but I'm in the same boat for a job...over worked and under paid and dealing with an impossible public every day all day...For all you dealers who think you have it tough...try being a nurse....little pay for little more then knowing you helped someone.
I wish sometimes that when I was taking care of a patient that I could negoiate a private price for their care based on certain criteria, just like a dealer...I could just see it now.......
Sorry Mrs. Johnson, but you need a new kidney and the lowest APR for a transplant loan we can give you is 6.25% based on your FICO....hahahaha
I am all for showing ID when purchasing with a credit card...................
Some years back when I lived in Fla. and went on vacation someone broke into my home and stole a few of my credit cards.................... Took NOTHING else tho.................
They sure had fun at every mall in Palm Bch. County. Bought THOUSANDS of dollars worth of designer clothes, small appliances, jewelery, etc.
Work of professionals for sure...............
A quick ID check would of stopped them in their tracks.
YES..I learned my lesson................2 cards in my pocket the rest in a safe deposit box ! I can see why a car dealer would require ID also.
i understand the traffic argument with the auto vs. manual transmission. i used to drive a manual accord until the crankshaft fractured in what must be a very rare event. everyday i drive my automatic accord, i miss that manual, and i do lot's of stop and go in atlanta traffic.
you might find having the manual keeps you actively engaged in the task of driving. that said, i do arrive at my destination slightly more rested now than when i had the manual. true, but i also know when things got squirrely out there (you drive enough time in atlanta traffic and you see all sorts of things happening all around you), the manual was the vehicle to have...infinitely more responsive.
suspect mileage was better also with the manual, and maintenance less.
Thanks, Pat. Also good to hear what others go through wrt providing ID's at dealers, et all.
For record, I agree dealer should make a profit, and to that discussion revolves around "how much" and "how to make it".
BTW, GM's latest "employee discount" is having a huge effect, and several major news websites report the REASON was that it minimized the haggling so many GM Car buyers have had to endure.
"oh isell..your just being silly now...anyone in their right mind can find a true invoice price that the dealer buys the car for (which is typically 1000-1500 below your listed invoice)."
What is it with this week?
Anyway, the "invoice" is.. the invoice. That's what the dealer pays for the car. There is no "true invoice".
What there is, is this: -Holdback: Money with which the manufacturer helps the dealer defray inventory cost. If interested, we've had that discussion. Monthly. No $1000-$1500 here.
-Customer Rebates. Money that the manuf. offers to bribe people to buy a car. Definitely money you should take advantage of, if available. NEVER been available on any Honda, as far as I know.
-Dealer Rebates. Money that the manufacturer gives to the dealer upon sale of a car. Often staggered: Sell 40 cars this month, and get $400 per unit; sell 50 or more, get $600 per unit. More difficult to find out about, and you're not "entitled" to it, but you can usually get some of it, especially when the dealer needsd to sell a few more cars quickly to make quota.
I think that's it. Understanding this will work to your advantage. All this nonsense about "true invoice" is just that: nonsense. If you came here to enlighten us, please find someone else. If you came here to learn, please don't post statements like that. It's just not true.
Not in the car business, but developing an understanding of it, I remain, -Mathias
P.S. Craig, if I have to read "(gasp) profit" one more time, I'm going to scream.
"A quick ID check would of stopped them in their tracks. "
It doesn't matter that you think ID check is OK. It doesn't matter that I think it's a bad idea.
What matters is that the agreement between the merchant and the issuer specifically requires that the card + signature be honored without further ado.
That's the whole idea behind credit cards. FWIW, I don't show ID either, but I very rarely get asked. My record was $5,700 at a car dealership... it's true, and it puts me back on topic.
Geo9, I'd like to know: When your cards were stolen and used, did you have to pay for any of the damage? My understanding is you would not have to pay anything unless you didn't report the theft, and then your liability would be limited.
Yeah...holdback 1-3%, incentives, floor incentives (typically more over weekends-peak sales-which you will never know about), marketing support blah blah blah....none of that matters if you don't know what the "real" starting price is.
You are absolutly wrong about invoice price. The "invoice" price published by the dealer to the consumer is NOT what the dealer paid for the car...at least not here in America. That is what they want the consumer to think they paid for it.
Do you honestly think that if dealers were paying that published "invoice" price that they would sell their cars below it so easily. The "they are making money off holdback and manf to dealer incentive thing" only works if they meet their quote or sell quite a few cars.
Seeing as the honda accord had a 10% drop in sales in May 05...I would think some of these poor salesmen are starving to death.
I used to work for a company that placed all the F&I guys in the dealerships...some of the stories I've heard.
Just like edmunds uses TMV invoice price is only based on national average of what people are paying for the car...you will never know the :"real" price the dealer is paying to buy the car from the manf. unless you work for the dealer or the bank financing the loan for the buys to the dealer.
So...sorry if I disagree, but the "invoice" price you see is nothing more then an inflated (dealer fee, advert fee, marketing fee, loan interest fee) price.
I'm smart enough to never disclose this when in negoiating until the right moment.
You've got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em..
I'm actually the perfect buyer, not picky about anything but a fair price. You have a ugly color car on a lot that you can't move, then I'm your buyer.
Not being picky about color/options gives me the advantage of waiting for the right deal....I just think no one is talking because...1.) It's the beginning of the month and 2.) the honda.com website is showing a clearance coming July 18th.
I can wait....I'm very patient.....but an honest saleman will get my sale!
Mine is - who out there wants to sell a car at a reasonable profit to themselves?
And your question would be?
P.S. When did being an informed consumer ever become something one needs to defend...I'm honest and expect others to be....I'm not ashamed of it, I rather embrace it and I DO NOT take advantage of others. (karma can be a bi**h ya know)
Comments
There is no conversation when only one person is talking...
It is protecting the corporation, but again, its protecting them from the same people who file lawsuits over a door closing on their foot or tripping on a nonexistent piece of dustbunny on the floor at the grocery store.
Again, it's rule by fear, rather than rationale. I don't agree with the whole situation, but that's the way our society seems to be headed.
I don't make the laws or rule, just abide by them.
And try to earn customers' business, and trust while making a living.
Toyota Ken
What I want to know is who is in the business of certifying cars for sale on e-bay??
obviously these people are buying vehicles that aren't appropriate for their financial situation...either no one ever pointed out that when they get done paying the interest on the vehicle, that car / "deal" is way too expensive for them and hurts them or they didn't understand it when it was pointed out to them.
it's not like i've been this "smart" and "lived within my means" all my life.
when i was young, i spent more than i'd like to admit on rent and recreation. yes, i had fun. would i have done it knowing what i know now? (rhetorical question)
i honestly feel bad for those living pay-check to pay-check where one unexpected bill tosses them into the downward spiral from which they may never recover, even if their situation is the result of poor judgement rather than unfortuante circumstances.
i like their high-end rides, but i like not having the fiscal pressure much more.
It still would make sense for a payment buyer with self control to buy on a 60 or 72 month note if they either:
- put the difference into an investment vehicle that earned more than the cost of the loan, or
- doubled up the payments and paid it off early, maybe even in 36 months.
Either way is a solid means to save money. Alas, however payment buyers with self control are not a lot more plentiful than cash buyers. Most walk in with an upside-down beater with 60 month note and want to buy a new beater for small $$/mo. Right Terry?
i was faced with the same dilemma when i bought my car in 2002 - finance for 48 months, and look at payments over $300 (i was just out of college) or stretch it to 60 months, knowing i was going to keep the car for more than 5 years, and knowing that if i hit rough times, i could have a lower base payment to worry about. i put $5000 down (i have a sentra se-r spec v) and made payments of over $300 when i could, and base when i couldnt - it worked well for me, and i am currently NOT upside down! cant say that for many people these days!
-thene
Now, if it was only available with a mortgage.....
In the most recent case, the Pros, apparently frustrated by carnivalsc's disinclination to seize their advice and play the game by their generally accepted rules, resorted to name calling (TROLL). And a host played along. Hey guy's, let's play nice and follow the rules.
From the Membership Agreement:
"If you wish to take issue with the statements of other Edmunds.com Forums members or Edmunds.com staff, please engage in healthy, mature debate and not immature behavior or name-calling. Civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Edmunds.com Forums."
By the way. By my understanding, the term "troll" refers to someone who posts inflamitory statements solely for the purpose of eliciting a response, ie: "trolling for a response". It appeared to me that carnivalsc was looking for help, in her own fashion, and was surprised and upset when she got dumped on.
Carry on
james
Dang.! .. another $10 word ... ok, who's got the dictionary today..?
Terry.
She vented, then looked for more to vent over, and has not taken any advice at all. Yet she has continued to stir the pot. That looks to me as if she is looking to raise a response, which results in the troll label.
Do you have a point, or just some more blanket accusations tossed out before you run behind your interpretation of the member agreement?
Thanks
.."apparently frustrated by carnivalsc's disinclination to seize their advice and play the game by their generally accepted rules...
the help she got was from people who can help...and the generally accepted rules work well.....but the poster seems interested in everything but actually buying the car...the folks on here were tryng to get the poster on track to make the process easier....but based on the replies she is looking for somebody to confirm her thinking not to make it easier to buy a car.
Too low a FICO score and (believe it or not) a perfect score of 800 can hurt your chances.
I can get a 1.9 or 2.9 with my score of 677.
Remember the fine print on those APR offers says "TO WELL QUALIFIED BUYERS".
Get your credit report (Free once a year) from a place like eqifax and get your FICO score as well (may have to pay for that).
If the dealer says that you don't qualify and that you just missed it, try letting them know that the sale is contingent on the lower APR, they may help you out.
ONLY tell them this after the car price has been negoiated, not before.
Point of my original question was to see if this scanning process acts as a "filter". I'm not inclined to waste a dealer's time, but can't do the impulse approach for expensive purchases.
I just don't buy the assertion that the expense of video taping every transaction is justified by the 1 out of 5-10k transactions (I'm guessing here) that MIGHT cause a problem that can't be resolved anywhere but a courtroom. And at the same time, being sold as "for the customer's benefit."
I also agree with you however - the courts are broken.
I had one manager of a store get out his store manual to show me where it says that had to be done. It didn't say that; it was his interpretation.
If I'm paying part of a car purchase then I might accept a need for identification, but not for the run-of-the-mill purchase.
Oh, I file a complaint on each merchant on Mastercard's website that they required identification (or had a minimum purchase amount or whatever rule).
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Lets assume you are buying a key in a dealership. The cashier asks for your ID. You then say something like, "you do not need it, MC doesn't require that". The cashier, just doing what they were told to do, looks confused and amazed and stands there a moment and says that it is for your protection. You then would either:
show ID and buy your $3 key
or
not show ID and leave
or
show ID, complain the whole time, and then report it to MC.
I just want to make sure I understand correctly.
It's their call - I wouldn't show ID either.
That's usually the problem: the cashier has no idea of what and why, they just do. I ask for the manager. Explain briefly to them. It's a flip based on how difficult the manager is whether I leave the purchase for them to reshelve or buy to get the credit receipt to give the numbers to Mastercard. Often the item is available somewhere else easily and I'll just leave the manager standing looking dumb.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It takes 2 to tango, and Carnival gave as good as she got. Do you really think people here wait for the uniformed and then rip them to shreds for the mere sport of it? Do you see nothing in her posts that might make folks here get turned off? Do you not see that there was a reason that each time I read her posts George Costanza's Mom's voice played in my head at 45 speed? Who invented Liquid Soap and Why? Why is it that when I go into the restroom at work, invariably someone has printed out reams of news stories fromthe internet on Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes torrid relationship and left them in the stall I've chosen?
What do you have to say about that, smartguy? :P
For myself, I try to pick my battles and showing ID to anyone who wants to see it is OK with me.
...runs off cliff while pulling out hair and screaming...
can anyone say "publicity stunt?!"
-thene ;-)
For the past several days some of us have tried hard to help someone who recounted being treated in a manner that was unpalatable to most of us. We either helped or we didn't, whatever, we all tried as best we could and that's all we can do.
It is time we moved beyond that issue now and continue the on-topic commentary that is threaded amongst the inappropriate personal slams that are being posted here.
If anyone has any issue with how a discussion is hosted, the proper action is to email the host. If anyone thinks any particular post is inappropriate, the proper action is the same.
Let's dispense with the personal criticisms all around and get back to questions for car dealers that actually have to do with buying cars, instead of continuing these comments about those who are posting here.
Thank you.
however.....if your id is being scanned into some sort of blackhole machine that puts you on a never ending 3rd party list...that is beyond approach and I would fight that tooth and nail.
Now for my dealer question...How come it seems that I cannot get anyone to sell me a 2005 honda accord lx w/auto trans for a reasonable price (even a touch under 18000 would be a good start) in Chicago?
I'm cute, don't smell, have good credit and want to buy asap......do I offend?
Where have all the dealers gone.......I guess I'll wait for that so-called July 18th Honda clearance that is being cleverly hidden on the honda.com website...
I am not in anyway against a salesperson making a living, but why such desparity amoung so many offers?
Maybe I didn't give enough info on the trim...2005 Accord LX w/auto trans..4 door.
TMV on this site is 18,519.00. That is a general national average. I am in a large market with alot of competition, looking to buy at the end of the model year, new redesign coming out Sept 06, honda.com advertising a july 18th sale (without details yet), loads of folks on the honda forum claiming prices as low at 17,400 incl dest only, great credit, pre-approved and like I said I'm really cute. :shades:
Why oh why is asking for something close to 18000.00 out of the question....???
so can you drive a stick? if it were me - i'd be going for the manual transmission version!
Again, I never knock that fact that someone is trying to make a living, but I'm in the same boat for a job...over worked and under paid and dealing with an impossible public every day all day...For all you dealers who think you have it tough...try being a nurse....little pay for little more then knowing you helped someone.
I wish sometimes that when I was taking care of a patient that I could negoiate a private price for their care based on certain criteria, just like a dealer...I could just see it now.......
Sorry Mrs. Johnson, but you need a new kidney and the lowest APR for a transplant loan we can give you is 6.25% based on your FICO....hahahaha
Some years back when I lived in Fla. and went on vacation someone
broke into my home and stole a few of my credit cards....................
Took NOTHING else tho.................
They sure had fun at every mall in Palm Bch. County. Bought THOUSANDS
of dollars worth of designer clothes, small appliances, jewelery, etc.
Work of professionals for sure...............
A quick ID check would of stopped them in their tracks.
YES..I learned my lesson................2 cards in my pocket the rest in
a safe deposit box ! I can see why a car dealer would require ID also.
you might find having the manual keeps you actively engaged in the task of driving. that said, i do arrive at my destination slightly more rested now than when i had the manual. true, but i also know when things got squirrely out there (you drive enough time in atlanta traffic and you see all sorts of things happening all around you), the manual was the vehicle to have...infinitely more responsive.
suspect mileage was better also with the manual, and maintenance less.
For record, I agree dealer should make a profit, and to that discussion revolves around "how much" and "how to make it".
BTW, GM's latest "employee discount" is having a huge effect, and several major news websites report the REASON was that it minimized the haggling so many GM Car buyers have had to endure.
What is it with this week?
Anyway, the "invoice" is.. the invoice. That's what the dealer pays for the car.
There is no "true invoice".
What there is, is this:
-Holdback: Money with which the manufacturer helps the dealer defray inventory cost. If interested, we've had that discussion. Monthly. No $1000-$1500 here.
-Customer Rebates. Money that the manuf. offers to bribe people to buy a car. Definitely money you should take advantage of, if available.
NEVER been available on any Honda, as far as I know.
-Dealer Rebates. Money that the manufacturer gives to the dealer upon sale of a car. Often staggered: Sell 40 cars this month, and get $400 per unit; sell 50 or more, get $600 per unit.
More difficult to find out about, and you're not "entitled" to it, but you can usually get some of it, especially when the dealer needsd to sell a few more cars quickly to make quota.
I think that's it. Understanding this will work to your advantage. All this nonsense about "true invoice" is just that: nonsense. If you came here to enlighten us, please find someone else. If you came here to learn, please don't post statements like that. It's just not true.
Not in the car business, but developing an understanding of it,
I remain,
-Mathias
P.S. Craig, if I have to read "(gasp) profit" one more time, I'm going to scream.
It doesn't matter that you think ID check is OK.
It doesn't matter that I think it's a bad idea.
What matters is that the agreement between the merchant and the issuer specifically requires that the card + signature be honored without further ado.
That's the whole idea behind credit cards.
FWIW, I don't show ID either, but I very rarely get asked.
My record was $5,700 at a car dealership... it's true, and it puts me back on topic.
Geo9, I'd like to know: When your cards were stolen and used, did you have to pay for any of the damage? My understanding is you would not have to pay anything unless you didn't report the theft, and then your liability would be limited.
-Mathias
You are absolutly wrong about invoice price. The "invoice" price published by the dealer to the consumer is NOT what the dealer paid for the car...at least not here in America. That is what they want the consumer to think they paid for it.
Do you honestly think that if dealers were paying that published "invoice" price that they would sell their cars below it so easily. The "they are making money off holdback and manf to dealer incentive thing" only works if they meet their quote or sell quite a few cars.
Seeing as the honda accord had a 10% drop in sales in May 05...I would think some of these poor salesmen are starving to death.
I used to work for a company that placed all the F&I guys in the dealerships...some of the stories I've heard.
Just like edmunds uses TMV invoice price is only based on national average of what people are paying for the car...you will never know the :"real" price the dealer is paying to buy the car from the manf. unless you work for the dealer or the bank financing the loan for the buys to the dealer.
So...sorry if I disagree, but the "invoice" price you see is nothing more then an inflated (dealer fee, advert fee, marketing fee, loan interest fee) price.
Now, your "Questions for a Car Dealer" are....?
-Mathias
You've got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em..
I'm actually the perfect buyer, not picky about anything but a fair price. You have a ugly color car on a lot that you can't move, then I'm your buyer.
Not being picky about color/options gives me the advantage of waiting for the right deal....I just think no one is talking because...1.) It's the beginning of the month and 2.) the honda.com website is showing a clearance coming July 18th.
I can wait....I'm very patient.....but an honest saleman will get my sale!
And your question would be?
P.S. When did being an informed consumer ever become something one needs to defend...I'm honest and expect others to be....I'm not ashamed of it, I rather embrace it and I DO NOT take advantage of others. (karma can be a bi**h ya know)
Holdback isn't profit. Far from it. "floor incentives" ?? what's that?
You asked, I answered. Don't believe all of these "prices paid" either.
Being cute helps but it doesn't look like it's working.
As far as the clearance...we can't ADVERTISE clearance until that date. Prices aren't going to tumble when the calendar flips to the 18th!
Don't outsmart yourself here. Inventories are VERY low right now. The longer you wait, the slimmer the selection.
And I think by "honest" you mean a salesperson that gives a car away is in that catagory? Honesty has nothing to do with this.