Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

grandtotal · March 2003

You got that right. It's a great country but you sure have to pay to live here.

mfullmer · March 2003

I'm reading and posting through three days of backlog.

I just read the guys post about the Caravan.

Something I've noticed - Just about EVERY 5+ year old DC Minivan I see around the roads has blue smoke pouring out of the tailpipe. I even saw the newest body style (was that '00 or '01 when they changed?)one the other day with it.

Any thoughts?

zueslewis · March 2003

van's engines are pretty much OK - the transmissions are junk. I don't know what's up with the blue smoke.

I know what causes it, but I haven't seen repetitive piston ring problems in these vans.

tboner · March 2003

chances are, it has the relatively bulletproof 3speed automatic and the Mitsubishi 3.0L known for getting bad valve guides.

TB

vikd · March 2003

With the '04 Max just about ready to hit the showrooms, do you think I could get a better deal on a leftover '03 through the VPP program or through standard negotiating means? Screamer adds in the papers daily are discounting ALL '03 Max's by as much as $4500 off of MSRP. I have heard some '03's getting kicked out the door at around $1500 under invoice. The VPP program as I understand it, essentially sells at invoice. Just hoping some of you would have some real world examples that could help clue me in to the '03 market right now. Thanks for your help!

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis · March 2003

since there's one right there in Beaverton - I know they're hooked up with the Nissan store.

Another way to handle it is to go to Royal Moore in Hillsboro and have them locate the car, after you've spent a late night doing recon in B-town. They can grab one out of B-town's inventory and you don't have to deal with them.

maq4463 · March 2003

What you guys think about this. INTERESTING.

http://money.cnn.com/2003/03/04/pf/autos/nonstarters/index.htm

ateixeira · March 2003

Seems like overkill.

Dishonest people will find a way to disable them.

Besides, I once read that men are more likely to make car payments than alimony or child support payments (sad...). Is the problem even that bad?

-juice

vikd · March 2003

Excellent idea letting Royal Moore snatch up the Max I want from B-town...hadnt thought of that! Will they charge me extra for the locate and dealer swap? Like I said, B-town is the only Nissan dealership in Portland metro with an '03 SE Polished Titanium, [non-permissible content removed]. Ed, frost cloth, mats (trunk and cabin), splash guards and a slider.
Since you suggest heading out to Royal Moore, I assume you also reccomend them as far as being good to deal with...?
Any other Nissan dealers/salesmen that can give me some real world examples of the '03 Max market right now?

BTW Zues...hasnt stopped raining since 6pm yesterday...the 405 was flooded between 26 and the Fremont bridge...made for an UGLY commute! I'll trade some of that snow for a little of my rain...

Regards... Vikd

stebu · March 2003

"Every state is different .. but for the States that require it, it's pretty basic .. application, then a DMV check, then a NCIC"

This was something Terry wrote back about 2 weeks ago. It was a response to a question about dealer licensing. I searched back for this post because, I have some more specific questions about the subject and I wanted to see what had already been discussed.

I checked the local RMV web site and didn't find much mention of the issue. I then checked the local .gov sites and they talk about licensing being a local (town) controlled issue, at least in MA. A call to the local selectman's office only revealed the requirements to open a dealer ship in a given town. They didn't seem to know anything about a private or individual Dealer's license.

So, my questions are:

Does any of the sales professionals here, know specifically what the requirements are to obtain a Dealers license in MA or RI? Does it even exist in these state? If nobody knows these specific examples, then can anyone elaborate what the exact requirements are in any other states with which they are familiar? Furthermore, what does the license authorize you to do, if anything, besides sell cars in a given state. Is this the only type of certification needed to gain admittance to Dealer-only trade shows, wholesale shows, and other industry private information? Also, in regards to Terry's post, what is NCIC?

Sorry for the rather long post. I know this is a lot of questions. But, thanks in advance for any enlightenment anyone has to offer.

robr2 · March 2003

Here is a link to Massachusetts information:

http://www.state.ma.us/reg/boards/

This lists all professions that require a license in MA. If you click on licensing guides and then use the search box to look for car, you'll get a result showing that automobile dealers mandated by state law to have a license but are issued by the local town.

It looks like the dealer has to have a license to operate the business but I don't believe that individual sales people have to be licensed.

stebu · March 2003

robr2: Thanks for the response. But, the link you provide is the same one I was refering too in my previous post. The local town administrators seem to be in a funk when I ask about a dealers license that is not in the context of opening a physical store. Which is why I was asking about Licensing requirements/benefits for someone who dosen't necessarily want to start a buisness.

Does anyone else have any input on this?

rivertown · March 2003

Sounds like you have a good reason to want a dealers' license, other than the intent to open a traditional dealership. What do you have in mind?

I suspect that the two things you can't do without a dealers' license are to take receipt of a francise and to serve as an intermediary for sales tax and registration. I dunno, though.

Trade shows? If crashing is impossible, I suspect a dealer bud could take you.

NCIC, I think, stands for National(wide?) Crime Information Computer (Clearinghouse?). A way for a dealer to check criminal history, if the cops will run the check for him. I think it's only law enforcement folks that can access it directly.

robr2 · March 2003

I know in my town here, a local business person who wanted to sell used cars on his property had to go before the Board of Selectman in order to get approval to sell more than X number of cars. I guess my town has a bylaw stating that if you sell more then than that number, you are a dealer.

Now I was just poking around the Registry's site and came across a reference to Class 1 and Class 2 dealer licences. Also this application for dealer plates gives more info:

http://www.state.ma.us/rmv/forms/21386.pdf

Also see section 57:

http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/gl%2D140%2Dtoc.htm

It looks like the license is issued by the police dept.

My consulting bill is in the mail!! :-)

zueslewis · March 2003

If Royal Moore pulled a car from Medford and incurred a $200 bill doing so, then it would be normal to work that into the deal, but considering the East side of Hillsboro is only 5-6 miles from B-town, it won't cost anything to do a swap.

I bought a GMC Yukon there in 1997 and sent my mother and father in law there for their 1997 Sonoma. I don't know if the dealerships are still close to each other, but it seemed like it was under good ownership. I also towed vehicles into the dealerships on many occasions and the service folks were always good to work with - if they'll treat a tow driver well, they'll surely treat well someone who is surveyed on their experiences.

vikd · March 2003

That's exactly what I wanted to hear...good to have someone with local knowledge from which to glean good advice. Thanks!

Of course the fact that you sent your MIL there could also mean that it is not a very pleasant place.. ;-/ (drawing from personal experience; insinuating nothing of yours)...

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis · March 2003

and my father in law did 41 years with S&P railroad - if I led him wrong, even though he's 5'6", 140 lbs, he'd kick my butt.

While living in Aloha, especially when helping the towing company, I got to run all over the area and speak with people inside and outside every dealership and private garage for miles around - interesting social experiment.

Also, for private garage stuff, I recommend Bassett Automotive - very close to you, great shop and people.

vikd · March 2003

Hey, drove by the B-town Nissan dealership yesterday but didnt see the towing company. Is it on the same side of the street as the Kuni Caddy/BMW dealership?
Saw you post on another thread about Saab's...any thoughts about picking up a low mile used one? I know they depreciate like a rock so they sound like a good buy for a sports sedan if the reliablity is there. Gotta start thinking of alternatives to the '03 Max...don't think the Polished Titanium will be around by the time I'm ready to buy. Why not buy this weekend you ask? Closing on a new house the end of the month...
Have a nice weekend folks...

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis · March 2003

It's not the company itself, just a yard for storing vehicles. I have't been there since '98 and they may have relocated - who knows.

Saabs are GREAT buys used. They DO depreciate like rocks, which is why it's better to pick up a one year old than a new one.

isellhondas · March 2003

You don't mind owning a mechanical nightmare!

Not a slam, just my strong opinion.

xccoachlou · March 2003

Maybe some people just enjoy telling SAAB stories?

- Lou

bretfraz · March 2003

My 9-5 has been more reliable than my previous Infiniti.

I heard that Consumer Reports has given the 9-5 a very high rating in their latest Car Buying Guide or whatever it is.

Saab's rep for unreliability may be well earned but is no longer applicable to their current cars.

zueslewis · March 2003

I don't see the recent Saabs in my cases, and believe me, I would if there were problems. We have people whining profusely over dash rattles, so something more serious would certainly warrant complaints.

I've only had 2-3 Saab cases in 2 years and those were settled - Saab didn't even fight like the other manufacturers do - that says a lot to me.

stebu · March 2003

river: Mostly, I'm just doing some legwork to investigate further into all the in's and out's of the car business. Right now it is just a side bar or a distraction for me. But, I'm doing this same type of investigative data collection on several fronts. You can't have too many options simmering on the stove in today's economy. If you know what I mean.

robr2: I've heard of that bylaw before, so it must be fairly common. My town hasn't provided me with the exact requirement as yet, so I don't know for sure how they view the whole issue. BTW, thanks for the links. They were very helpful. Checks in the mail.;-)

Any of the dealers care to weigh in here with any advice/suggestions/pitfalls of starting a small time car business?

rivertown · March 2003

IC! Good luck!

isellhondas · March 2003

Come from painful experience with some of the ones we have taken in as trades.

I could go on and on...but I won't since to some here it would sound like I'm slamming another make.

Hopefully they are now much better...it sounds like this is the case.

Just don't get me started on Audis...:)

manamal · March 2003

My take on saabs:
Extremely safe cars...very durable...high maint...and if you don't do the scheduled maintenence, then...well...you will have problems. It is possible that the people that are inclined to trade a SAAB for a Honda or Toyota (which are more forgiving of lackluster maintenance), might not havedoen the proper service. I don't know.

All I know is the '00 to '03 9-5 has proven to be THE MOST RELIABLE European Car. the new 9-3SS, to early to tell.

rubicon52 · March 2003

It's tough to find reliable/durable cars that depreciate quickly. Infiniti is the only one that comes to mind.

Manamal: When you say Saab is the most reliable European car, what is that based on.

mackabee · March 2003

Yeah, I know. I sounded just like a customer. It just happened the logistics did not fall in place. I had to work, mom had to work, and my son had to work. Seller also told me he would not be available on Saturday. Still looking for a car for Mack III.
: )
Mackabee
Of course Mackabee III is starting to sound a lot like a customer too! Now he doesn't want anything with over 100k on the clock, whether it's a Toy or a Honda! I told him he's going to have to save some more dough then.

manamal · March 2003

Saab claim is based on CR.

Note that I do not own a SAAB, rather 2 toyotas.

ateixeira · March 2003

I'm not sure if you can still claim Toyotas are forgiving of lacklusters maintenance, look at the sludge debacle. Change that oil frequently if you own one, and save receipts.

-juice

vikd · March 2003

Sounds like they can be a fantastic value for a 1 or 2 yr version. Not too worried about reliability at least in the short term. I would only pick one up with 2 or 3 years of the manu warranty remaining and sell it before it expired. Long term ownership is another story...not sure I want to roll those dice. From what Zues has said though, the '03 models seem pretty hassle free from the lack of claims against them. I dunno...I still want the '03 Polished Titanium Max but I bet that ship will sail before I'm ready to climb aboard. Oh well, back to more research and further excuse to hang out here at Edmunds...
To that end...any market examples of what nearly new, well equiped Saab 9-3's are going for?

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis · March 2003

you don't need to look solely at '03s if you don't want. The '01s, and especially the '02s have been scarce in lemon law proceedings.

vikd · March 2003

Any idea what the manu warranty is on those things?...I guess I could find out easy enough elsewhere on this site if need be.

That could be an example of the perfect three year ownership vehicle...assuming the warranty would still be in play and the used car maket improves 3 yrs from now. With the initial deprec. and a strong used car market for a low mile (dont drive many miles), well maintained sport sedan, it could prove to be a push...of course that's being optimistic but...

Hey Zues...was the light rail system completely finished before you left in '98? I cant remember when the project wrapped up precisley but B-Town Nissan's lot is now limited/bordered by the light rail tracks that head out to Hillsboro...

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis · March 2003

under construction when I left - those tracks by the dealership and theater run right by the tow/impound lot. That lost may be a grocery store or train station by now - I don't know.

I haven't actually looked at the warranties on Saabs - in my position, the warranty coverage isn't as important as what actually went wrong - the big picture of the mechanical history of the vehicle. I'm sure, on Saab's website, they talk about certified used cars and their warranties.

vikd · March 2003

history is a good enough start and encouraging to hear. I guess only time will tell how the newer versions hold up and how Saab continues to handle customer service and warranty issues.

Maybe I'll wander on over to "real world..." and ask Terry what some of these puppies are going for.

Thanks again Zues...alot of useful info here!

Regards... Vikd

audia8q · March 2003

Off lease Saab's represent a great value. The prices are well below similar cars in class. They are a little quirky but if I was driving across country a Saab 9-5 would be one of the top 5 choices. The seating and driving position/set up fits me like the car was designed around me.
Used Saab's are worth a look...
They are pricey to fix so routine maintance is important.

prodigalsun · March 2003

So, what years should one avoid to prevent having a plethora of Saab stories?

A 2001 9-3 SE for around $20K might just be the ticket, if one can be found.

suvshopper4 · March 2003

Thanks for the tip.

Has Subaru corrected the improper wheel bearing installation problem yet (both OEM and service departments)?

zueslewis · March 2003

from what I'm seeing, they started getting much better in '99-00, and I don't see '01s often, and haven't seen an '02 yet - I've seen '02s in everything else!

This is a Saab owner's area, too, so I'd see the cases if they were coming in - they just aren't.

bretfraz · March 2003

Of the 9-5 the most trouble prone seems to be the 1999 model (first year in the US). As production went on they got better and better. My '00 has been excellent. In'01 the 9-5 won a JD Power award for initial quality. I simply have not heard any substantial complaints on '02 and newer.

Pretty much the same story for 9-3. Since the 9-3 is an improvement over the 900 before it, Saab had many years to work out any problems. What's left are the quirks and oddities that exist in every car, nothing to worry about.

The only other car I'd rather drive x-country is a Mercedes Benz S500 or S600. Maybe an Audi S8. There are few cars better suited for long distance driving than a Saab 9-5. Take it from someone who used to drive 40K/year.

prodigalsun · March 2003

Thanks for the feedback gentlemen!

zueslewis · March 2003

ateixeira · March 2003

suvshopper4: yes, Subaru started using a new bearing design on the 2002 Impreza and on the 2003 Forester. I follow every Subaru thread here on Edmunds and have not seen one failure with the new bearing design.

It's the rear bearings that tend to fail more often, and one fix involves swapping them out for Legacy bearings, which bolt right on.

FWIW, my '98 has all the original bearings and they're fine.

I'm curious to see what zeuslewis' experience is with Subies though...

-juice

vikd · March 2003

I figured a used Saab would be a pretty good buy. Just for my own piece of mind though, I think I would only pick one up with the manu warranty still intact, then decide at the end of the warranty period whether to keep it based on it's dependability up to that point.

Heck, Lease deals on brand new 9-3's right now are pretty outrageous. GM/Saab Fin is offering money factor's of somewhere around 2% iirc...and you don't take the depreciation body blow.

Strange...just a week ago I was 100% set on an '03 Max SE; not sure how I came around over to Saab...being a car nut is pretty frustrating sometimes. Too many nice cars...too little time.

Thanks gents...

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis · March 2003

very "mid level" when compared to Honda, Toyota, etc and far above domestics and Koreans. I love the WRX, although young guys are blowing them up and Subaru is pulling the rug out from under them, even though SUBARU PAYS SCCA MEMBERSHIP (Read: autocross and rally event enrollment) FOR EVERY 2002 WRX SOLD!

Subaru lemon law cases bring enough attention that I see them, although only a couple per month out of 200-250. About the same as Honda and Toyota.

manamal · March 2003

The best deal is on the saab's that are comming off lease. Because of the subsidized lease deals, many SAABs are leased. Comming off lease, a '00 9-3 probably could be had for about 13-15KK. A similalry aged 9-5 would run about 17-19K

ateixeira · March 2003

Cool, zues, thanks for sharing that info.

From my perspective they are pretty reliable. We've seen a batch of wheel bearings go bad, and it happens again if not installed to spec (don't over-torque them!).

They cover that stuff under the 5/60 warranty, plus SoA has a rep that is a regular here and resolves a few problems here and there. They do a good enough job that we bought a 2nd Subie and will probably stick with them.

The WRX is a funny case, because those same kids are modifying the cars heavily. One guy that shredded the teeth off his transmission gears used the handle "all_wheels_spinning" or something like that, LOL! Another complained that he could no longer spin the tires in 2nd gear because the clutch had worn (duh!).

If you get it up to 280hp and the stock drivetrain is meant to handle 227hp, can you blame them if the clutch or tranny go? IMHO, no, you should have budgeted a swap for those along with the big increase in HP. Or just wait for the STi if you really need that kind of power - it's designed to handle 300hp (the tranny and clutch are different).

Subaru got smart and the clutches on the 2003 and later models have a force-limiting valve. Guess what? I've seen zero failures on clutches/trannies for 2003 models.

-juice

vikd · March 2003

...it just isn't large enough for my needs (2 kids, one still in car seat) unfortunately. It would be near the top of the list, along with the STi if the kids were all growed up.

Thanks for the tip manamal, but even at 0% interest (which would not be available on a used vehicle) on a 15k version, a 48 mo term pymnt would be $313/mo; and the veh would be out of warranty. We close on our new house the end of the month so I don't have the normal reserves for a cash buy. Based on the heavily subsidized leases you mentioned, I could prolly pick up an '03 for close to that and have zero maintenance worries. I know leasing isnt always the best option, but for some vehicles it seems a heck of a lot more attractive and right now the Saabs seem like one of them. I seem to be talking myself in to leasing an '03 Saab and again I'm not sure why...guess I have a sickness for researching vehicles... I need to seek help ;-/

Regards... Vikd

zueslewis · March 2003

You just went from buying a cheap used car to leasing a new one!

Bear in mind, your credit union probably has bargain basement rates on 1-2 yr old vehicles. Also, GMAC may have a subsidized rate on certified cars.

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