Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

ateixeira · April 2003

Equal-opportunity insults are required here. ;-)

-juice

suavechavo · April 2003

Thanks for the info!

Marty

chunkydog · April 2003

Hi all,

I'm looking to purchase a 2000-2001 Audi S4.

The other day, I drove a "certified" preowned 2001 S4 at a local dealer. It has roughly 36.5k miles, and the dealer wants almost $34,000 -- though he indicated some flexibility, whatever that means.

After doing some checking on other sites, it appears that CPO S4s sell for at least $1,000-$2,000 more than private party ones. I'm sure this is somewhat typical of all CPO cars, and maybe more so of Audis (since CPO cars come with a 2-year warranty). It may even be more true of high-performance cars like the S4, where a lot of owners modify the car after they buy it.

I have a bunch of questions:

* Does anyone know how good or bad the asking price is on this particular car?

* Do dealers negotiate on CPO prices? Is it comparable to new car negotiation?

* Are CPO cars generally worth the price premium, and does that determination depend on the make and/or dealership?

All advice is appreciated. Thanks!

chorton · April 2003

is only as good as the dealer. they do have an inspection to do and you get a warranty that you normally would not get, the price should not be THAT much different than one that is not a CPO. The olny extra cost to the dealer is the patrs and labor(if any) and the cost of the warranty.

jeffmust2 · April 2003

...and on an Audi it's probably a good idea.

I'm no Audi expert but check and see if an Audi F&I guy will sell you a factory warranty extension on Audi vehicles you buy privately - it might be available, depending on the age and mileage.

I bought a '95 Lexus LS400 that was CPO; had a couple of obvious problems with it (warped rotors that a test drive would have found, etc.) that the dealer should have taken care of before delivery. In effect, they did a "sunshine" tune-up and detail and nothing more. After the sale, though, that factory warranty came in handy to fix suspension items and other expensive nick-nacks.

chorton · April 2003

As I said. The dealer selling the CPO Has to be the one that does the work to make it a CPO. IF the dealer doesn't MAKE the mechanic doing the work take time to do the right inspections and repairs you are basicly buying an extended warranty.

isellhondas · April 2003

On an Audi is a GREAT idea! Trouble is, they are expensive since the warranty companies know you'll be using it often.

Not a slam, just reality.

robr2 · April 2003

sonjaab - MA charges a flat registration fee either every or every other year for plates. Regular plates are $35 every 2 years. We do have an excise tax collected by the towns based on the value of the vehicle at a rate of 2.5%. I just paid mine and my 00 Ody was valued by the town at $6500 and my 98 Accord at $2100. The value is nowhere near the true value of the vehicle - even brand new. I paid less than $350 60 days after buying the Ody. After a while (6 years??) it bottoms out at $25.

Deep South - It depends on one's definition. To us Bostonians the deep south is Philadelphia. LOL I slay me!!

stebu · April 2003

I was thinking more like Baltimore... but OK. LOL

BTW, I just love that whole Maryland, DC, Northern Virginia, Chesapeake Bay area.

chunkydog · April 2003

Do you mean to suggest that as a make, Audis are not reliable? I never assumed that they were on par with say, Honda or Toyota, but if the general consensus is that they're below average, do tell.

I did check on this particular make and model with Consumer Reports, and it says "better than average" reliability, whatever that's worth.

audia8q · April 2003

I was looking at the Consumer reports "reliable used car" section...I don't see any Audi's listed. But they did list a few in the used cars to avoid section... That wouldnt stop me, I love Audi's...look at my screen name..
Get a good waranty and find a great dealer and enjoy the car...they arent as bad as some want you to believe.

rich

sonjaab · April 2003

WOW! Thats a lot...Plates in NY for 2 yrs. on
my 01 truck or 02 Caddy are just under $100 each.
My sister lived in Boston and paid a LOT for her
Audi ...Not to mention insurance !
Thanks for the info !...............geo

prodigalsun · April 2003

Yup, consumer reports dings the A4 and the A6.

A4 years to avoid: 97, 00, 02

good thing is, they didn't make the list of reliability risks. Those consisted of VW's, Mercedes and ford, GM and Dodge products.

There were no Japanese or Korean's on that list.

robr2 · April 2003

The excise tax has nothing to do with registering your car. As I said, plates are $35 every 2 years for regular plates. The excise tax is a personal property tax - fully deductible on your federal return.

But at least I don't have to pay sales tax on clothing like in NY!!

stebu · April 2003

Man, even though it's deductible, I hate that excise tax. Especially, during years I swap vehicles. You have to pay for both the old steed and the new one and then file for rebates. It's definitely a scam where they're hoping that people won't do the legwork needed to get their money back. Sort of like the rebates the retail stores use to move stuff. The companies that underwrite those make a good portion of their living on the unclaimed cash.

robr2 · April 2003

Acutally getting the rebate is pretty easy in my town. My experience has been that you show you paid the excise tax on the old car then proof you sold it. The clerk has always deducted the refund amount from the new bill and I pay the net amount. Never been tough for me.

virgiesmom · April 2003

Posted this on Lexus board but no replies. Thought this might be a better place: The wife has spotted a 2002 Lexus GS300 in local non-Lexus dealer's used car lot. Mileage (11k) and $ look appealing.
However nearest Lexus dealership is close to 100 mi away. For warranty work or recall stuff can I take to a Toyota dealer or have to make the trip to a Lexus dealer? This is holding up our decision.

bigorange30 · April 2003

In my state, you can just transfer the plate to the new car and then don't pay the personal property tax until the next time its due. The best way is to trade right after you have paid your tax on the old car. I did this last year with my latest purchase. My taxes were due in March but I had a buyer for my old one in January. I went to the tax office and asked if I could pay it early. They didn't have the March taxes set up yet but set mine up so that I could pay it early. Then I paid the $110 and went the same day to turn it over to the buyer. I took the plate to the dealer and placed it on my new QX4. Then, I had 14 months before the $750 tax was due on it.

kyfdx · April 2003

In Kentucky, the property tax is paid on any car you own on January 1st for that year.. Even if you sell it on January 2nd. On the other hand, If you buy a car on January 2nd, no tax is owed for that calendar year.

kyfdx

chorton · April 2003

If you peel a few luxury amenities and the "L" off the GS300 what you have is a V6 XLE camry. The power train is almost identical. ANY Toyota dealer will be able to do ANY work that a Lexus needs.

EDIT-ES300 is the camry-GS is much nicer-sorry i got crossed up. Warranty Repairs need to go to lexus dealer. Regular service and/or maintainence CAN be done by a Toyota dealer.

bretfraz · April 2003

I think you meant ES300. The GS platform is not shared by any Toyota model sold in the US.

kyfdx · April 2003

Exactly.. and I would bet most Toyota dealers wouldn't do warranty work, either. Not if they thought they could get you to pay for it, to keep from driving 100 miles.

kyfdx

rivertown · April 2003

You could always ask the Yoda dealer before buying the Lex.

It's not the same company, but I had a Lincoln dealer once happy to do everything (warranty and scheduled maintenance) on a 'Stang. Even sold me a lifetime oil change. Nice place.

joatmon · April 2003

Almost as in the Camry 6 is a bent 6 and the GS300 has a straight 6. Ever open the hood on a GS300?

chorton · April 2003

I was thinking of the ES not the GS. I Don't sell Lexus....they all sound the same to me. No I haven't been under the hood of a GS Thats probably why I got confused.

That brings me to another topic..The dealership I'm at is the states leading volume Toyota dealer..however Lexus says this town isn't big enough to have a Lexus franchise. Kind of funny there is a BMW dealer and a Mercedes dealer in town...along with Lincoln and Cadillac. Go Figure!!!!

acrafton · April 2003

Have posted several times about helping a friend buy a minivan - originally a T&C, here is the story. . .

  Went with her to the dealership she was working with to help finalize everything and it had gone well to that point. A decent price on the T&C (not great but fair for all) and now they were appraising her trade in (02 ML 320). They came back with a number $3K under what was reasonable and what CarMax had offered. We were very nice but to the point that if they could do $29K on the trade (as opposed to $26K) she would buy that night. They hemmed and hawed and came up 800 bucks. We thanked them and left telling them that we handn't shopped price or other minivans and were ready to buy if they could come up.
  Sales manager calls her the next day saying he wants his used mgr to give it the once over again, etc. to get the best price. I bring it in (she is pregnant and has 2 kids and her husband is in Iraq). After looking at it again for an hour they come up to 27,500. I again say the only price that will do the deal is $29 - that is what it is worth (checked with Terry). They will work on it . .Next day they call back and say they are at 29K, come in pick it up. We go in and the van is parked out front but a few nights earlier we had a massive hail storem (DFW) and the hood is severely dented. We go in and there is a 'new' sales guy. What happened to Ron? Oh, he asked me to work with you . . .I point out that the van is severely damaged, he says "oh, really?" I point out it and and he gives me the "we will fix that". . .on the the prices. Sure enough, the trade in is as at $29k, but the sales mgr has simply increased the sales price of the van by the delta ($1500). I point this out. He looks me dead in the eye and says, "but you said you needed $29K on the trade, you have $29K.". I reply yes, but that was with the agreed upon price, that increasing the sales price by the same amount as the trade increase changes nothing. We stand up to leave and the sales mgr comes running over asking "what will it take to win your business" (why do they ask this knowing already what it will take?!). We briefly tell him that nothing has changed except playing with the numbers and leave. . .
  In the mean time I insist my friend look at the new Sienna and Honday Odyssey. She eventually decides on an Odyssey and in DFW they are selling at $2500+ off MSRP. We go to a dealer and tell them up front what we need and they go to work. Within 45 min of 'checking around' they come back with $29K on the trade, the agreed to sales price, no add ons. She does the deal that night.
  Yesterday the Chrysler dealer calls back - the original sales guy asking what happened. I tell him I was a little bothered by the new sales guy and sales mgrs approach/tactics and since he was not involved in the issues, he should have the sales mgr call back. Sales mgr calls back and asks about status. I tell him she purchased the Honda. He is very upset (but polite) and asks why I didn't give him the 'chance' to win the business. I told him that he had 3 in person chances knowing exactly what she needed before she had shopped anywhere else but he held out and would not meet the pricing that was very fair to all.
  His next statement got me - "if you would have just told us you were serious and that you really had to have the original price and $29K we would have done the deal?!". Huh? We were in there three times each time ready to sign and indicated just that . . .this wasn't a phone or internet anonymous person shopping prices and grinding. . .we were sitting across the table with check book out . . .she had already did a credit app as well.

  Why would a dealer not do such a deal when several others were eager (and were weren't beating them up on the new car price) and also, why would he then say he would have did the deal after he lost it?

Adam

BTW, the Honda dealer (John Eagle in DFW) was great, would buy from them in a hearbeat.

kyfdx · April 2003

You came back three times. They didn't meet your price, but you kept coming back. Evidently, they thought you were only interested in that van.

mirth · April 2003

They probably were one of those place that don't think a woman is serious about buying until they bring their husband in...

acrafton · April 2003

I never thought of that . . . you may be right. Indeed, she was hooked on the T&C at first and maybe they knew/thought that and were holding out for as long as possible. Very good insight.

imidazol97 · April 2003

Do you mean they thought the buyers (man and woman) were only interested in that van so they were going to hold up the price, since they felt there were no other cars they were interested in buying?

'Reminds me of going back to dealer where I bought 77 olds and wanted to order 80 olds. The salesman said they had to have a signed purchase before used car manager would give a value to my trade in!!!! I don't sign nothing without filled in prices... I left.
Ordered new car at another olds dealer next evening. They called the 2nd day _at work_ wanting to know if I was still interested. I told them I was in and wanting to make an agreement Monday night. What did they think I was there for? I told them DUH I already bought a car. Bye. They disrupted my work to ask me that kind of question. What chutzpah.

rivertown · April 2003

Some folks are just interpersonally competitive and greedy, just like some are fair minded and straight forward. Telling which from which is possible; figuring out why probably isn't.

kyfdx · April 2003

This is kind of in reverse, but...

I was looking at a Porsche one time... Seller was asking $23,9K and I offered $20K. He turned it down. I told him I couldn't go any higher, but if he called me back, and I hadn't bought something else, my offer would still be good. A week later he called and said he would take $21K. I told him $20K was still the most I could pay. Did I worry that he would sell to someone else? Nope. I knew when he called me back, that it was only a matter of time... Sure enough, two days later, I had the car for $20K. This might have been the dealers feeling, when you visited three times looking at the same car, even after it was hail damaged.

just my $.02

kyfdx

landru2 · April 2003

Obviously, the dealer really didn't want the trade for $29,000. However, I guess, you could've just gone and sold it to Carmax for the $29000 and then then bought the T&C for the agreed upon price.

Sounds like your friend got what she wanted in the end anyway.

The value of trades often gets people in trouble. Remember, the trade's "worth" is only relevant to the particular buyer. If Terry says something is "worth" $29000, even he probably won't be willing to pay that if he already has 5 of them on his lot. The guy down the street that has none may gladly pay $29000.

A used car's "worth" is simply not the same to everyone. This is an easy concept to understand when it comes to individuals looking to buy a used car but applies equally to dealers buying a used car as well.

rivertown · April 2003

it doesn't explain why the dealer was bent about not getting the same deal he'd turned down 3 times before.

That sounds more like uninformed customer behavior than pro salesman behavior.

IMO, too many car salesman treat a deal like a game of poker. That's uncool, in the first place. For the salesguy to then get bent when his bluff is called is simply childish.

landru2 · April 2003

Sometimes human nature leads to childish behaviour, whether it's a whining car salesman or a name-calling customer.

kyfdx · April 2003

The dealer is out to maximize his profit.. If the car is 'worth' $29K to him, but he can get it for $26K, then so much the better. He's not really looking for a 'fair' deal. Then again, neither am I. If fair is $29K for my trade, and I can get $31K, then so much the better.

kyfdx

chorton · April 2003

The car business is soooooooo hard, for the customer and the salesperson. If everyone came to a dealer knowing what the car IS worth-Trade in. and knowing Exactly what to pay for the new one, Why would there be SALES people? On the same note, If everyone on the lot came to BUY TODAY, There would be much fewer games involved.

jbollt · April 2003

Not everyone is ready to buy without doing some test driving of competative models. A GOOD salesperson expects his buyers to pick the best car for them, not the one he/she will make the most money on today. The only way to help this happen, is for the buyers to shop, and NOT fall for the "today only " pricing and typical salespersons approach of let me SELL you a car. I, for one, want to BUY my cars, not be SOLD one.

acrafton · April 2003

There are significant tax savings here in DFW and if you sold it to carmax and the bought the T&C you lose the tax benefit - in this case, $1812,50. That is why it was important to do the trade.

Also re it not being 'worth' it if they have five on the lot, etc. Good point, but none of the dealers (Chrysler or Honda) ever planned on keeping it on their lot. They were each going to sell it to another dealer (MB). They told me they were shopping it to the local MB dealers and named them. So, it appeared that the Honda guys were either passing it through for what they could sell it for, or small uplift (probable) and the Chrysler guys were trying to maximize profit (which I have NO problem with them doing, at all).

As mentioned, our frustration was that he was upset that we did another deal for terms that he was offered 3 times.

Adam

imidazol97 · April 2003

today..." I wish I had a dollar for everytime a salesman asked me if I was ready to buy today implying he could only give me a best price if I would commit to a purchase then and there. As I said in my earlier description, I went to the dealer to purchase a second car from that store. Salesman tried to play games with a presigned purchase agreement before used car price was determined...
jbollt has the right idea. Help the customer buy the car they want at the price they want to pay.

chorton · April 2003

I was referring to the ones that no matter if the car is what they want, the price is right and the weather is nice they are just here to get a price take it back to the LOCAL dealer and THEN BUY a car. And then we get a call from THAT dealer wanting to trade for THAT car. What a coincidence. I wish just a few of you knew how different this dealership operates. I'm done here, This is a waste of time.

audia8q · April 2003

There is a reason they ask you for a commitment.....One example that has been used alot around here. Put yourself in the sellers shoes....

lets say your selling your house. A guy shows up and looks at your house and asks you "what is your best price?" Do you give him your bottom line without knowing if the so called buyer is actually serious and qualified? Experienced negotiators (any field, not just car sales) will tell you that it would be foolish to do so... asking a commitment questions shows your seriousness...what incentive does a seller have to give away the best price unless you have a serious buyer who is ready to go?...

jeffmust2 · April 2003

But since car people really seem to love it...

What's the harm in giving a non-serious home buyer your best price? It's not like he can take it to an identical house two blocks over and cross-shop it.

Unlike new auto sales.

landru2 · April 2003

is an offer on a house not even considered without a deposit?

Since the house can't be cross-shopped it would seem like deposits wouldn't be necessary at all. Yet, without a deposit to show committment, an offer will not even be considered.

What's the harm? What a silly question. What's the harm in letting every neighborhood teenager test drive the Mustang GT you have for sale?

Whats' the harm in negotiating for an hour with a guy on that used Mustang and finally reaching your rock-bottom price of $10000, only to have the buyer say, "Ya, that's a good price but I only have $5000 to spend." Now imagine that selling that car is how you make your living. Oh well, no harm done.

jeffmust2 · April 2003

I said - what's the harm in giving a home buyer prospect your best price?

How does that translate into your question of "why is an offer on a house not even considered without a deposit?" Darn close.

Ok, gee, uh, that's a tough one...but let me give it a shot -

a) Because a house is MORE IMPORTANT than a car? (unless you drive AND live in it)

b) Because if the home buyer defaults after making a deposit...sometimes...you get to keep the $$ or at least part of it? (been there and done that)

"What's the harm? What a silly question. What's the harm in letting every neighborhood teenager test drive the Mustang GT you have for sale?"

It's a Legend but close enough and if that kid could sign for the money involved, he's My Man - I refuse to discriminate based on age; time for the boy to grow-up and buy that dream vehicle. I'd get an adult's signature on the Sales Receipt of course.

It would be my job to separate the joy riders from the real prospects, something I do 50 hours a week in my real job.

"What's the harm in negotiating for an hour with a guy on that used Mustang and finally reaching your rock-bottom price of $10000, only to have the buyer say, "Ya, that's a good price but I only have $5000 to spend."

It's never taken an hour - more like one minute. As for my negotiating skills, I've read these boards long enough to know that I could never! ever! hope to reach your level - but I do know enough to ask what price range vehicles a prospect's been reviewing and/or what price range do they find acceptable for their budget. And I do this over the phone BEFORE a test drive so by the time he/she falls in love with my dream, there's some room to negotiate - but not a ton.

RE sales people: Pass exam, licensed, have to have E&O insurance, usually put everything in writing, lots of disclosure laws where I live, etc.

Auto sales people:

bretfraz · April 2003

has got to make a commitment to the deal. Whether that's the seller or buyer, a commitment has to happen otherwise nothing gets done.

Some people are simply used to sellers offering a committed price upfront and expect that in every transaction they're involved in.

Buyers get upset when a seller won't offer a committed price upfront. Imagine buying a commodity item like computer chips. You can shop the different mfrs and obtain their committed price before making a purchase commitment upfront. The problems start when a buyer expects that every time they want to buy something.

Its the lack of education and flexibility on the buyer's part that cause most of these problems, IMO.

landru2 · April 2003

"I said - what's the harm in giving a home buyer prospect your best price?"

No, what you actually wrote was:

"What's the harm in giving a non-serious home buyer your best price?"

See the difference?

jeffmust2 · April 2003

...in my post must be in the white color font, eh?

Ok, since you apparently have as much to do today as I have, try answering my question -

What's the problem, when selling a house, in giving a not-serious prospect your best, bottomline price?

mackabee · April 2003

Jeff, how do you tell if they are serious or not serious?
; )
Mackabee

landru2 · April 2003

The part about the deposit was in relation to your comment that you see no harm in giving NON-SERIOUS buyers your best price. A deposit is how home buyers show they are serious.

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