Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

sellinhonda · May 2003

right on that one. The web sites that give you a guide on how much your car is worth is just for an idea and guide only. It tells you that if you want 4,000 for your car and KBB says it is worth only 2,700, then you know your way off.

I always found funny that when a consumer is trading his car on another pre-owned car or new that there is no way that he/she will pay what KBB says is retail for mine and KBB is out of their mind. and then when we talk about their trade KBB is then all of a sudden the best guide in the world and I should pay to the penny...hmmmm

You are so right, there is not one person ever that has gotten a check from KBB and had someone come and pick up their car from their driveway, but everyone countinues to think that they will be the first and I will gladly give to the penny what KBB says I should pay them for it. Again, not to totally bash these sites, I don't want to. I think they are terrific sites for information and preparing the consumer with the information they need to purchase a car.

I just wish that people would call me say "In this area what automobile book do you use to show value for my trade" You could then go to that site and get the hard truth ahead of time AND be prepared for what I say and make (god forbid) the whole transaction easier for both of us.

qbrozen · May 2003

I've been relying on the Real-World Trade-In Values board here on Edmunds for years now. Great place to get accurate info.

Anyway, when it comes to dealing with salesfolk, I have absolutely no problem using whatever guide they want. Problem is that I've had many of them want to use one guide to value my trade-in and another guide to value the car I'm trying to buy. To use your example, sellinhonda, I would be more than happy to use Kelly to value my trade... as long as we use Kelly to value the car I'm buying, too. But, like you said, I'm sure there are plenty of customers who would even throw a fit at that.

I've had salesmen switch books on me several times in the past. Had one rocket scientist Volvo salesman who was fighting me on the trade value of my Mazda. I already got the skinny from the board I previously mentioned. He proceeded to pull out some funky little book I've never seen before and showed me the number in there for my car... it was about $1500 lower. He left it on his desk and walked over to talk to the used car manager. So, of course, I picked it up and flipped to the Volvo section to look up the car I was trying to buy... also $1500 lower than I thought. When he returned, I told him "ok. I'm not going to fight on the trade anymore. I'll use your number out of that book. But then you've got to use the number for the Volvo from that book and I'll give you $xxx profit on top of that."(can't remember the exact profit I figured, but I think it was $1500-$2K) He started stumbling all over himself and backtracking and claiming that they can't buy volvos for that price, etc. etc. etc. I thanked him for his time and left.

I got quite a few stories similar to that.

But I'm not bashing. I've got a few (granted, fewer than the bad stories) of salepeople being completely upfront and honest and we came to an agreement on numbers quickly and fairly.

sellinhonda · May 2003

positive there is some bad practices as we all know, lol, and for them I apologize as I am here mostly to try to mend a very long bad relationship between consumer and salesman.

I know depending on the region you may live, there are several different books that are used. This is not because they use the lowest one, no, it's just the value of different cars in different areas of the country. These books values aren't just picked out of the sky like we believe, they are based on what the cars are selling for at either the dealers, or more so, the local sales auction.

They then average them out and print it out in the books that we all know. This why certain sites are sometimes way off (KBB) because instead of using this formula, which you must admit is the best, they just use algarythems (sp.). They even tell you this if you look in their disclaimers that the figures are to be used for information ONLY.

I personally live and work in the New York area and we and mostly all around me us the Galves system and books for all values of trades. They have a web site as well. I am not sure of the top of my head how much it costs to obtain a figure on their site but I am positive that it is less that the difference you may be subject to when I tell you what your trade is worth and what you were expecting. Not to mention your aggrevation and time, effort..etc.

Just a few thoughts....

jeffmust2 · May 2003

Then you need to pass a written test, an eye test, and a driving test in most states to get a license.

You wanna buy a highly-bred canine pup from a good, reputable breeder?
They're going to ask you a lot of questions - personal family background, previous canine owning experience, do you live in a house or apartment, is anybody else at home if you are at work, why are you buying this puppy, etc.

You wanna have a kid?
Go ahead.

zueslewis · May 2003

and managers "go to the book" as a defense.

The way I was trained as a salesman and later used this approach (straight up and honest, no backpeddling, too) as a manager was to state "$XX is our bid on your car. That is what our dealership is willing to pay".

It doesn't matter for a second what book a value comes from - what is the real world, real money on the car? Figure it out, then say so. If you're close to a deal, compromise and make it happen. If not, it doesn't matter if you have 57 books in front of you.

And by the way, if I EVER caught a salesman with an NADA or Kelley book at his desk with a customer, he'd better leave before I get to him.

Salesmen, even experienced ones (unless their job prescribes it) have no business thumbing through a book without the total knowledge of what a particluar vehicle brings in the market, what adds and deductions apply and don't, what options packages include what, how much to allow for that scratch of the fender, how much a set of tires like those cost, etc.

And CURRENT AUCTION TRENDS - something a salesman, who has never attended an auction, would have no way of knowing, unless the used car manager brought back a tape recording of the auctioneer - not likely.

All that's going to happen when that book comes out with a customer is an increase in hard feelings and a better chance to lose a car deal.

qbrozen · May 2003

And by the way, if I EVER caught a salesman with an NADA or Kelley book at his desk with a customer, he'd better leave before I get to him.

i like that. wish you were at every dealership i have dealt with in the past. there would have been MANY salesmen out on their butts.

Got another quick one, speaking of showing books to customers. And this is one of my favorites because the salesman actually told me to leave and escorted me out of the building. This moron pulled out Galves to show me where he was getting his number from, and I showed him that he was failing to look at the add-ons which followed the base price number and figure in the V8, SLT package, auto tranny, etc. (I already had a copy of Galves in my back pocket and knew exactly the value of my truck - according to that book). Only time I've ever been thrown out of a place. I laughed the whole way.

sellinhonda · May 2003

Without a question, I totally agree....but.

Which would hold more credibility, at least telling someone where your getting your info on the number you just quoted or just saying, here is your value just because I say so. I think you will agree that even the seasoned vet. has to glance at the book every now and then on one of those of the wall trades you never see. I for one agree with you that you should have an idea already on trade in value, but I mentioned, If I have a customer with a trade and I know it's worth 2,500-2,800 and just blurt it out without having credibliity where it came from,,,or say lets get some information on the car sir, do a complete trade apprasal and have my used car manager take a look at it as well as check it's value in the book. (use your own wording I guess, LOL). I hope you see a point there, adds a little more credibility especially as I mentioned before they know the book I am using.

just a thought...

rroyce10 · May 2003

...... *> And by the way, if I EVER caught a salesman with an NADA or Kelley book at his desk with a customer, he'd better leave before I get to him <* ...

l.o.l.. absolutely - live by the books, die by the books ..

Terry.

zueslewis · May 2003

sellinhonda (is that isellhonda's evil twin?) - kidding.......

It's not a matter of credibility, especially when people aren't ready to believe you, anyway. No matter what number you come out with, there'll be an argument of some sort - "where'd you get that?", "I checked with my credit union", "according to the KBB website", etc.

Of course, there's a guide BASIS for a trade evaluation, but the real factors like I spoke of before - auction trends, recon costs, place in the market - those are the REAL factors that develop a REAL bid number at a dealership, not NADA's version down to the penny - you know that.

In court, every time I go, I'm asked about the value guides for my appraisals. KBB, Kelley, Galves are just guides, mainly used by lenders to loan money on a vehicle - these guides can't buy a car, or dictate to a dealer what they HAVE TO pay for a car. Ain't happening, no more than a sticker on the window mandates what a customer will pay for a car. A customer can offer less, pay more (yeah, right), or walk - just like a dealer.

rivertown · May 2003

I don't even try to trade. I've always bought a car somebody in the family likes,likes,likes; we've driven them till they are beaters; and then we've sold 'em through the paper quick and easy. (Of course, sometimes the ins co has bought a total.)

Simplify, simplify, simplify.

saber86 · May 2003

What is the policy when customer backs out on a deal? I understand it most if not all states have "no cooling off period" and it is clearly stated in the sales contract.

A colleague of mine at the office purchased odyssey and now he wants to back out and wait for the 04 sienna. The all the documents have been signed and dealer is not going to back out of the sales.

So he went over to the toyota dealer and sales manager told him, even though he signed the sales contract, he can still back out legally because he has not physically taken the vehicle off their lot. This is supposed to be some kind of loop hole in the no cooling off period law.

Is there any truth to this or is the toyota dealer sales manager just Bsing to make a sale?

zueslewis · May 2003

they haven't concluded the transaction - have your friend check with the BBB for sales statutes in your area.

Now, if he'd driven over the curb....

saber86 · May 2003

no he says he did not even test drove the vehicle because it was still being prepped in the svc area. I guess he just looked at the vehicle and verified the vin# with what was on the sales contract.

He has already called BBB and they told him he has to honor the sales contract since texas allows no 72 hrs cooling off period for car sales. He just wants to verify if such loop hole exists or not.

kyfdx · May 2003

Did he write a check? Just stop payment. Tell them you won't go through with the deal, won't take delivery, won't make the payments. They won't drop it off in your driveway. The BBB is not legal representation, and is ultimately a business organization, not a consumer advocate. I wouldn't trust them for legal advice.
The deal isn't done, until delivery takes place.

regards,
kyfdx

grandtotal · May 2003

Assuming he has not handed over a cheque what's the worst they can do? Hang on to his deposit maybe, but sue him? I doubt it. I think he needs to be absolutely sure he wants the Sienna and if he really does tell the Honda dealer so and take his bumps.

sellinhonda · May 2003

can say that here in N.Y. that if you haven't taken delivery and signed the actual FINAL contract at delivery you can walk, get your deposit back, whatever...

No delivery, No deal, no dice

saber86 · May 2003

Dealer is doing all the paperwork and already approved for financing and he did not put any deposit down. He signed all the paper including releasing his old vehicle as a trade in. The honda dealership is telling him, if he does not pick up the vehicle and start making payment, than the creditor will report to the credit bureau for default and ruin his credit. The honda dealer also told him, since he has already signed the paper, they can repo his old vehicle that he signed over for trade in.

imidazol97 · May 2003

"customer" whom he forced to take a car.
Honda's are so easy to sell, why wouldn't the dealer
just say, for $100 I'll quit the deal.

Why use a sledge hammer
on a "customer" to make him take the car???

Imagine the bad publicity vs. the good publicity
of I changed my mind and they let me out of the deal
for $xxx for their time and trouble.

kyfdx · May 2003

SO, SUE ME!!!

kyfdx · May 2003

How bad did he get screwed on this deal, if they are making all that noise about him backing out?

kyfdx

zueslewis · May 2003

and until it's over the curb, it's not a car deal.

He can basically ignore the contract - they can pound their chests, but that's about it. The BBB is a dealer mediator in most places, so, in retrospect, that wasn't the place to go.

rivertown · May 2003

If the dealer won't undo the deal out of good will, it looks like a matter of who has the bigger hammer.

So, what was the value of the trade? The dealer can always 'say' the trade's been sold for $.29.

Trying a good will conclusion, a la Imidazo, makes the most sense to me.

saber86 · May 2003

He is going there during his lunch and deal with the general manager. He says he is going to be civil at first by offering them few hundred dollars for their troubles and see they will accept that and be done with it. If not, He is going to take zueslewis advise and say hell with it since he did not drive it off the lot.

I don't have all the details what exactly he paid or got for his trade in. I didn't want to ask him since hes already stressing over how to get out of the deal.

qbrozen · May 2003

no delivery, no dice, that's how I understand it.

But, then again, how did he sign the purchase contract without taking the car? What about the delivery inspection report? He couldn't have signed that if he didn't even get to inspect the car yet, could he?

I guess maybe if you really do sign everything, they could make you stick to it, no? I mean, what would prevent someone from signing all the papers, they hand him the keys, then he puts them back down and says "eh, i changed my mind."? I'd like to hear what more dealers have to say on this.

zueslewis · May 2003

there are also many reasons for not taking a vehicle right away - that always gets the sales managers squirming.

If you were sending the vehicle out for window tint, stereo, detailing, other accessories, or if it just came in it has to be PDI'd in the shop.

There are state laws that say "a signed contract is a signed contract". Others, like in Texas, (paraphrasing) say "it ain't a deal 'til you see the taillights".

Saber - I know we've had our issues - I appreciate your civility. Are you in Texas, as well?

rroyce10 · May 2003

.... Zues is right, Texas, Maryland, Utah, it makes no difference no ticky no washy - (no physical delivery) .. the best thing for all is, drop the dealer a couple of hundred have some hugs and kisses, then go on ...

Terry.

stebu · May 2003

"The BBB is a dealer mediator in most places..." This sounds like an interesting, and to me anyways, an unexpected take on what the BBB is about. Now you've got my attention, could you elaborate just a bit.

saber86 · May 2003

I am in texas. I live in frisco just north of dallas. I don't know if you know where that is? Are you originally from texas?

saber86 · May 2003

apparently he went there this past saturday and the dealership had the vehicle in service getting prep and something zues mention PDI. That is why he did not take physical possession of vehicle on saturday.

sellinhonda · May 2003

Pre Delivery Inspection

All dealerships have a check list per Honda they go thru with all vehicles prior to delivery after they are dropped off. Basically to make sure everything is OK and up to Honda standard prior to delivering to customer. It is the first time anyone does any kind of inspection of the vehicle

There should be a copy of the inspection by a Honda tech in the delivery paperwork. Sometimes it's left in the glovebox.

saber86 · May 2003

I'm curious. "No delivery and no possession then deal is not done deal." Is that a law documented in the books or just a loop hole only the dealers know about?

sellinhonda · May 2003

may try to hold your feet to the fire to keep a deal but if you haven't a)sign a typed financial contract from a bank and/or b)title/registration forms. c)transfer any monies d)take delivery of said product. then no deal

If all you have done is signed a "buyers order" saying you agree to purchase said vehicle, it doesn't really matter until you take full delivery and sing the "real" contracts.

sellinhonda · May 2003

I kind of embarrassed and pissed off but here is a example.

I sold a Pilot to a customer in March with a signed "buyers order" and took a deposit on AMEX. The car came in a week ago and at first he was all excited. Then he wouldn't return anyones phone calls. After a week yesterday he calls me to tell me his wife changed her mind and he already called AMEX and disputed the 500.00 deposit. Not much I or anyone can do.....

The good news is I had someone else waiting in line for the same excat car and now gets it early, but I still lost out. But there is an example that until you take delivery I am SOL.....

&*$% out of luck !!!

zueslewis · May 2003

Most dealers are signed up with their local BBB for dispute mediations. This precludes lawsuits and hopefully results with quicker problem solving when a consumer has an issue.

I've been on both sides of the fence (three sides?), in F&I (contract issue), service (repair issue) and personally (dude ate my down payment). I noted a strong dealer-loyal sense from the BBB people - same with manufacturer issues, say if you contacted the BBB prior to contacting an attorney about a lemon lawsuit.

Since many dealers are signed up (with an agreement/contract), the dealer is certainly charged a fee for this service - thereby, the BBB has reason to sway the dealer's way, or lose the fees over time - dealers are tight, and if the Chevy dealer in town is losing his tail at BBB hearings and cancels his "subscription", then his buddy the Ford dealer will probably follow suit.

zueslewis · May 2003

I lived in Arlington for a while and worked at David McDavid in their Pontiac/GMC store.

I'm originally from Lake Jackson, in Brazoria County (South of Houston).

stebu · May 2003

Thanks for the info. Very enlightening. Although, it's a bit unsettling to learn that the BBB has a monetary interest that could run counter to the consuming publics interests.

zueslewis · May 2003

It's alarming from either side of the issue. As the representative of a dealer in two arbs, I was faced with the "what if". "What if" they rule in our favor, and they're wrong - am I now a conspirator to fraud?

Luckily both cases were CRYSTAL clear, and I had nothing to worry about.

townha11 · May 2003

Hello. I wonder if anyone could tell me how dealers can offer 7, 8, $9000, and even more off the MSRP on some new, but discontinued, models. Do manufacturers rebate this amount to the dealer? I was under the impression that once a vehicle was delivered to the dealer he has "bought it." I'm thinking especially of the few 2002 Isuzu Troopers that are still on dealer lots and that are going for thousand off MSRP. If I consider looking at these vehicles I certainly don't want to insult the sales staff by asking for even more off the MSRP. No sense being a total dork, heh? Thanks for any help.

imidazol97 · May 2003

to the public on models that are at the end of the model year? or discontinued? I recall that there often were discounts back to dealers beginning in the summer to help move cars soon to be replaced with next year's models, but the public doesn't know about the discount --

E.g., was it on this group that someone commented that Honda gives dealers rebates, but doesn't want the public to get the idea that Honda like others has to use rebates to help move cars...

Can someone help with this question?
Are these dealer rebates shown on Edmunds?

rivertown · May 2003

In a word - yup.

At the turn of the year there was something like $2K in dealer cash for the Honda Civic Si that never showed up on Edmunds or anywhere else that I could find.
I think there's prob some dealer cash on Carollas now.

How to find out? I don't think you can, for sure.
How to get a clue? Watch for screamer ads. Follow the 'What did you pay?' threads. Check to see what Edmunds says about pricing; LOL, when Edmunds stops giving an 'invoice price', something's up.

Hankr · May 2003

is from Consumer Reports' website... who will charge you $12 for a full report (for 30 days) on any new car you desire, localized to your area to show any regional programs in place too.

For my recent purchase, I found out there was a $500 factory-to-dealer incentive in addition to the $2000 factory-to-consumer incentive. Their invoice, holdback and floorplan info is thorough too.

In every other site I checked, KBB, Edmunds, Autosite, MSN, et al, none indicated the extra $500 was "in play".

Best $12 I've spent in a while.

squirreljam · May 2003

Question to all the Dealers out there:

How do the various insider pricing plans (GM Supplier, Ford x plan, Nissan VPP, etc.) work? I assume the factory pays a set amount of profit to the store for doing the deal, since the price of the car is set by the plan, often at less than invoice. Most dealerships seem eager for these deals so there has to be something in it that's worthwhile.

Thanks,
Squirrel

rivertown · May 2003

Thanks, Hank.

What sort of floorplan info does CU give?

Hankr · May 2003

CU indicated that in addition to the 3% of MSRP there was for holdback, there is another 1.5% that CU called "Floorplan Allowance".

I don't recall the stated difference between holdback and floorplan allowance, I threw my repoorts away. But CU did display them as separate cost lineitems (for Suzuki only, there was no FloorPlan Allowance shown for Focus or Matrix, whose reports I also bought).

They both sound to me like additional funding to (theoretically) finance unsold inventory during the 60-90 days (on average) a unit might sit on the lot before being sold.

Anyway, CU's reports were much more thorough than other sites, both with their information, and buying-advice as to how to use the reports. Very well worth the $12.

rivertown · May 2003

Thanks, again, Hank.

CU for me next time I'm buying!

zueslewis · May 2003

throw holdback and the other allowances into the discussion at the dealership....

grandtotal · May 2003

Absolutely nothing wrong with discussing holdback, floorplan assistance, whatever, it's the out of the door price that matters. How you get to that price and what you discuss along the way is irrelevant.

Hankr · May 2003

I will never discuss it. I do not want to get drawn into a discussion where I'm at a clear disadvantage against one who does this day-in and day-out and knows far more than I.

I simply play "Willy the Dunce", indicating I have done some research to arrive at my offer, and I understand it may be too low. But I won't discuss the details behind my offer, I just politely refuse to go there.

I tell them very politely I understand they may not accept the offer, and that is OK... even expected early in the game. But I also make it clear I'll not budge one dollar until I try the same offer elsewhere. If it too is turned down, I'll be back (via phone or email) with a higher offer until someone says "Yes".

I will only speak a language we both understand equally-well; DOLLARS. And I won't move from my offer in any given visit / discussion by even one dollar (out of courtesy to the competing dealer).

It has worked for me, and I've had generally pleasant, productive buying experiences and would guess I buy at prices better than 75% or more of the general buying population.

I think the keys to making it productive are to be forthright, respectful, and truly willing to sign right away when I hear "Yes". I have never walked from a deal where my offer was met.

Perhaps I'm not typical? Will many buyers come in with an offer, have it accepted and then still back out or shop it elsewhere? That's really sleazy.

CarMan@Edmunds · May 2003

Hi townha11. Dealers can easily sell a 2002 Isuzu Trooper for $7,000, $8,000, or $9,000 off of MSRP right now because Isuzu is giving dealers $6,000 dealer cash this month to help them unload leftover 2002 Troopers. When this cash is combined with the spread between this truck's MSRP and dealer invoice price it adds up to one heck of a discount.

Car_man
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lagitane · May 2003

Need HELP. What is the best way to trade, or sell a brand new truck? (not yet 30 days old). Purchased a 2003 Toyo Tundra V-8 on 4/22. Dealer gave me an excellent deal. No gripes there. Paid $22,800 before add ons. Problem is that the gas is killing me, plus finding out what the upkeep is for this beautiful beast. (Yipes!)I was mislead by the MGP by several V-8 owners, dealer included. Toyota doesn't seem to even consider gas mileage anymore when they make their trucks. This thing sucks gas like a pig.

Problem is, I can't really afford this truck. I'm in WAY OVER MY HEAD. Dealer giving me the run around about returning it. Was willing to get me into something I really don't want, can't live with.

Any advise on how to negotiate a fair trade into something more economical with this truck? Dealer has me at a disadvantage. Don't have any more money left for yet another down payment. Really feel lost with this one. Should I try to do something now, wait until the end of the year when they are trying to dump the '03's, or wait a few years while still on warrantee and then trade, or sell. Is this case hopeless? Gotta be something financially feasible I can do. Just have no experience with this.

Appreciate any help any one may have to offer.

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