I would gladly sign the purchase order as written up by thene and signed by the sales manager. That way everything agreed between me and the salesperson is in writing when I get to the F&I guy. I can't tell you how many times I get to F&I and see an "extra" fee and when I tell him to take it out he says something stupid like "gee how 'dat get in der".
Kudos to the dealership where thene works.
What happenned to all the cute little emoticon cars?
"But ask me to sign a unnecessary document and the answer is No."
I've been asked to sign an offer before I know what the selling price is, a credit application or permission to review my credit (I'm a cash buyer), a form requiring me to carry collision & comprehensive (again, I don't finance my cars), a waiver of the right to sue, but the prize goes to a waiver of my right to a copy of the previous owner's milage statement. (Hey, what's this for? Oh, we need it to register the car. Uh huh!)
I always ask to see this anyway. I want the previous owner's name and address so I can call him about the car. I also ask for a Carfax report and the car's service history with the manufacturer.
"My Pappy told me: 'When a man wants you to sign something, he's trying to get you to do something you're not gonna want to do.' " ~ Bret Maverick
Somebody in the biz, either the departed driftracer or isellhondas, commented a few weeks or months ago that they would not sell a car to a person refusing to sign the said waiver - nothing personal, store policy.
I have been watching this discussion with quite a bit of interest.
I think the fundamental thing thenebean is getting at in #2846, and the thing that drives isell crazy when a customer will drive a couple of hours to save $50 bucks, is that dealers aren't differentiated very well.
First, once you've decided on a make and model, cars are commodity products: An xyzmobile from dealer a is the same as an xyzmobile from dealer B. Even worse, for most classes of cars, there is no clear winner for the average consumer, so the xyzmobile is very, very close to the abcmobile as long as they are in the same class.
In a commodity market, price typically becomes the differentiator. I agree that driving 100 miles to save $50 is crazy. But how else to differentiate XYZ co two dealers than price? Especially when the two dealers are effectively the same distance from my house?
Relationship selling? Come on, this is a business transaction that I don't perform more than once every couple of years at the most. And even then, I'm very rarely in the market for the same type of car the next time I'm around (I alternate between buying a new commuter and a new family car), so the earliest you can expect me back is about 5 years, probably much longer than that. And even then, the odds of me wanting the same car are slim. I'm not that different from most people. People just don't buy cars often enough for relationship based sales to differentiate the dealership significantly.
Low-pressure sales? This is one where it is worth some money to me. I've had a very good experiences with a certain Subaru dealer. If I was in the market for another subaru, I would go back to them in a heartbeat and not shop around too much. Only problem is, I won't be in the market for another Subaru for at least 3 more years, and who knows what subaru will have available by then? So it's worth some money, but not a whole lot.
With a dealer you don't know, you don't find out that they are high-pressure until you have a settled price. By that point, you've already paid the price and you may as well take the lower cost car.
Quality of service maybe? That only happens after the sale, and it's hard to know the quality of service until after you've bought the darn car. Sure, word of mouth can help, but *all* dealers do warranty work. Service is fairly fungible from dealer to dealer in my experience.
It's even worse when all the dealers around you are good, solid companies with nice sales-people and good service departments. That just makes them equal to the buyer. How are you going to differnentiate yourself?
It's just hard for a dealer to differentiate themselves in such a competitive market for what is essentially a commodity, so price becomes one of, if not the, most important differentiator there. Price and location.
Or waiver of the right to sue. And it's pretty much standard here in Orlando. At one dealership, the clause even states that I'd pay their attorney's fees if we went to arbitration, needless to say I walked out.
When I asked about it a few months ago here, the advice I got was that it's really not legally enforceable when you get to the legal details, but it does a good job at weeding out the bogus lawsuits.
"i may be wrong, but i dont think we're allowed to give out previous owner information due to privacy laws...
"i dont know if i'd want all these potential customers on my trade in calling me about my old car anyways!"
New York State's DMV requires Form MV-50 Retail Certificate of Sale which gives: "Name and Address of Previous Owner" and their affidavit as to the car's mileage. Of course, the dealer can ask the buyer to waive the right to a copy or to omit the information on the customer copy.
in michigan, it is up to the selling dealer whether to give the information. same goes in indiana. in ohio, it is illegal to give the information, and in kentucky it is required by law.
hello all, I was just wondering what exactly that means as pertaining to someone who lives in virginia,buying in maryland. I will be buying a new vehicle this weekend and was wondering if all or some dealers require you to sign the arbitration agreement and also what are some issues that come up when you may need to go to an arbitrator. any info would be appreciated.
I have recently been irritated by big newspaper ads that use large type to state the so-called sale price of vehicles. They get your attention, due to the seeming bargain. In much smaller type, the ad tells you that the price reflects what you must pay after having already made a payment of "X" dollars. By the time you sift through all the parameters of the "deal" you find the price of the vehicle to be about average retail. The ads are very deceptive. You've got to watch some dealers VERY closely!
Hello all, Well, I have been talking to a dealership by e-mail now for about 2 weeks. I have found that ALL dealerships are trying to double dip on their profits when a trade-in is in play. Just thought that I would try and help others out as well. Here is the deal: I own 15,000 on my car and dealer wants to give me 10,000. If I buy a car from them, the trade-in difference goes right on top of their price. So the car that I am looking at is 20,000+ the 5,000 difference in my trade in. If I buy at this price then I spent 25,000 on a 20,000 dollar car. Now here is where the dealer is making all of the money. They turn to the next guy and sell him my trade-in for 15,000. That is 5,000 in instant profit, seeing how I am also paying their difference from trade-in on top of my "new" car. They then can make a financing profit on the two cars if people finance through them. Does this seem right??? All of the while they will tell you that they are not making that much money on this deal. Just think the average store only makes 1-3% profit on each of their products.
Double dipping? The problem is that you are upside down on your loan i.e. you owe more on the loan than the car is worth. That is not the dealer's fault. If you don't like the amount he has offered you for your car then sell it yourself.
What you need to do is not buy another car until you have paid down the loan on your current car until you are no longer upside down. Buying a new car now will leave you in this same mess again in 2 to 3 years when you buy your next car. Suck it up and keep driving your current car for a couple of more years. You will come out way ahead financially over buying a new car now.
Finally, if it still doesn't seem right or fair to you, don't buy the car. Go to another dealer and find another deal. I bet you wind up in the same situation. :shades:
P.S. By the way, it is not $5000 in instant profit. It would be $5000 in instant revenue. Not the same thing. Revenue - expenses = profit. :surprise:
Exactly....how do you know he will sell it for $15,000? ksccts has it right. Pay off the vehicle. You're buried now and if you trade the hole only gets deeper.
put in the info for your car and get a TRADE-IN VALUE, which is very different than a retail value (if you were selling it yourself rather than trading to a dealer) and that will give you a good idea of the trade. KBB has always been a rather true indicator for me.
....... **If I buy at this price then I spent 25,000 on a 20,000 dollar car. Now here is where the dealer is making all of the money** ....
It doesn't quite work that way ..l.o.l...
You have a payoff on your vehicle ... and the pay-off is nothing more or nothing less than the echo or the shadow of the loan - it has nothing to do with the dealer ... in this case and in the case of 80% of todays buyers, you have what's called: "negative equity" - you owe more than the value of the vehicle ..... maybe you had it on the last vehicle and carried it over to this one (as most people do) or "maybe" you put little or no money down on this loan and you started from a negative position from day one, then add some taxes, have the depreciation kick-in and - Wango Tango, you owe more than it's worth ........ at least your in the majority of buyers ..............
I just came back from a BMW dealership, put a refundable downpayment on a demo car. Not sure if I should buy it... 330 xi automatic '05 premium package, heated seats for 34, 500$ (bottom line price w/out any other surcharges) Is this worth it?
Paid $10 and sold it for $15.? .. we don't have all the facts here -- and you, of all people know there is 3 prices when someone sells a vehicle ... no one "makes" someone trade a vehicle, they have options, like selling it on their own and getting $13+ .. again, we don't have the whole story - it's like real estate, do you sell it on your own (fisbo) or do you pay an agent $25,000 to wander around the yard and point out that you have 2 walk-in closets ......?
Look, I know about upside down, and I checked with KBB, that is where I was getting my figures. This is not the actual numbers or anything, I just wanted to simply point out that the dealers out there love that trade in thing. It is a very worth while investment to them. Have you ever heard of dealers really losing money on someones trade-in. If they can get two different buyers hooked into their F&I program, they are now getting two people to pay interest on one car. Sounds to me that is a very good deal for the dealership. I know that I have inequity on my current car. That is why I have not traded it in. But I am in the market for a truck do to lifestyle changes, so I figured that I should start figuring numbers now. I just think that buying a car could be so much easier if it was more like shopping that the grocery store.
1.) **I just wanted to simply point out that the dealers out there love that trade in thing**
Actually, that's a very untrue statement .. dealers hate to see deals come across the their desks and the potential buyer is 3,0/5,0/$7,000 out of whack, they need to cover all the taxes and any and all of the negative equity with any rebates and/or dealer cash .. what usually happens, the dealer loads up in the trade and makes little (if anything) on the new vehicle, as far as the F&I is concerned, the store is beating the lenders silly trying to get $32,000 approved on a $25,000 vehicle, and usually the buyer has little or no cash down --- you do the math, it ain't no lottery ticket ..l.o.l...
2.) **Have you ever heard of dealers really losing money on someones trade-in. If they can get two different buyers hooked into their F&I program, they are now getting two people to pay interest on one car**
Yes, it happens every minute of everyday in every city of America, it's the flea's that come with the dog ... remember, dealers aren't lenders, they might make $200/$300 on a finance deal, but as soon as that vehicle is traded or refinanced that source is over ..
The car buying experience can be very easy - or not, it depends on the person .. some would rather "think" they know whats going on, and then you have others that take their time, do their homework and understand the real deal .. just like real estate, some folks pay $425,000 for a home, and then you have others that pay $490,000 for the same home on the same street ... info my friend, Info.!
If you really want to know what your vehicle is worth, spin over to "Real World trade-in Values" and I can tell you were your sitting in your vehicle ....
You will always get screwed when you trade in a car! There is no way to win. The dealer does not need or want your car so consequently will offer you less than its worth. If you do get alot for your trade in then your ner car price is higher than average.
This is an interesting read for sure! I have nothing against dealers needing to make a profit, or a sales person making a decent living selling cars and trucks. But my last 2 cars I bought, an Acura and an Infiniti, were truly new experiences for me as I changed my buying tactics. I'm up front with the sales person telling them we don't need to "play" the buying game. I want to buy a car, you want to sell a car, so let's make this easy. You quote me an "out the door" price, meaning a number that represents the dollar amount I will write a check for, inclusive of all taxes, DMV, fees, etc., and if it's acceptable to me, I will buy. I'm willing to dicker a little during this process, but I don't let it go on for more than 20 minutes or so. I do this at the several dealerships I shop around at to compare who is giving me the best deal. When I finally have acceptable deal in front of me, I write the check (bank draft) and hand it to the salesperson. I had no problem at the Infiniti dealership, but the Acura dealership proved to be a little more difficult in closing the deal. I guess they didn't think I was serious when I had confirmed several times if the number they gave me was the "out the door" number, when they tried to back step and add on some other charges and fees. I finally told them to give my check back because I was no longer interested in buying from them. They relented and gave me the car at the first "out the door" price they quoted. I plan on doing this again when I'm in the market for another car. :shades:
Terry, Thank you for all of the info, you are a big help. I know that I don't know a darn thing about the auto business, I have been trying to do my own research, and it seems that everyone is out to get the dealer/salesman on these forums. That is not what I want. I just want to feel that I am getting the best deal someone can offer, and not be taken advantage of. I want to go to a dealership, have them tell me all of the numbers up front, and see if I can afford it. But as you very well know, that seems to be a very rare to have that happen. I know more about the car that I want then the salesman, I just want to know more about the numbers game that seems to be going on.
you have to understand that if a dealer takes a car in on trade, he's gotta take it in at a price that if he has to recondition it then re-sell it, he can make some money on it. if you think that we're screwing you because we are a business and the purpose is to buy low and sell high so we can make money, then so be it. when you try to sell your own car in front of your house, are you gonna price it low because you dont want to make money?
i had a woman come in with a 98 volvo wagon who wanted $7200 - we were able to show her $6200 - high miles, a car we would auction, wholesale price. she now has a sticker on the car that says "for sale - $9000"
thats over RETAIL in almost every book!
is she not screwing anyone out of their money?
the dealer does want to take in cars on trade - we sometimes have the opportunity to make some money on them (again, the point of running a business - to make money). some cars however do not work well on certain lots - we are willing to pay more for cars that we think we can sell.
its a tricky business with lots of variables - please don't generalize and say we're always screwing you.
hopefully your next experience is a better one, seems like you had a bad experience to say something like that!
Dealers do want your used car. They make more money trading two or three times from the sale of that used car. They take a trade on your used; the 2nd trade gets traded okay; perhaps even a third time before they have a throwaway if yours was fairly recent model.
Of course you can do that yourself by selling your car rather than trading it.
This isn't at every dealer but this is how it was explained to me long ago. The total from those trades is greater than profit on your new purchase. I recall trading an 85 Skyhawk J car and it never saw the front of the dealership. It was on the backlot all washed and sold when I went back by two days later. Their total cost of prepping the car was a wash job and maybe a wax: two hours of labor time?
I realize this is not at all dealers. I priced at a downtown Buick dealer and he took my trade over a high volume Chevy dealer nearby for a trade value from their guy. It would have gone to their used lot; higher traffic artery, higher volume, easier sale than the Buick location.
Other cars get wholesaled. My dealer where I've traded lately is straightforward when he's going to wholesale my used trade. That doesn't mean the auctions. He has buyers who come around to pick up cars he doesn't want on his own lot. He keeps cars with mileage lower than 75K.
Seawiz, you said, "I want to go to a dealership, have them tell me all of the numbers up front."
In my opinion, you are asking for too much.
Your attitude is, "I will be happy when people behave in a way that pleases me."
Well, dream on. People don't behave like you want them to. You have to figure out a way to enjoy life despite their behavior.
If you want to enjoy car buying and get a fairly low price, then you will have to make the effort to learn how to do it. This DG is an excellent place to start.
By the way, I don't think car dealers are doing anything wrong in trying to get all of the money they can from your pocket. You just have to learn how to act in your own best interest.
Well, dealers don't always "want" your used car. We often cringe when people drive certain cars on our lot.
And, you are assuming a lot when you say that dealership's "total cost of prepping" your 85 skyhawk amounted to a wash and wax job.
How do you know they didn't wholesale it? It's also possible the shop discovered hundreds of dollars of work that car needed that you didn't even know about?
It's tiring to read about how much money greedy dealers make.
I recently took in a NICE Explorer from a very fussy customer who had kept it in top shape. It looked and smelled like new and it had low miles for it's age. The customer demanded top dollar for it. Even though the current gas prices are killing the resale of these now, we stuck our neck out and paid him more than we should have in order to make a very skinny deal on the new car.
We paid extra because of the pristine condition (we thought) of the Explorer.
Well, guess what?
Our intense used car inspection revealed a few things that I honestly believe the customer was unaware of. Things our appraiser couldn't have known about.
The timing chain is worn and making noise. The power steering rack leaks, the oil pan gasket needs to be replaced and it needs brakes all around.
Because it was about 2 years old and had 40K or so on it. Prime. I should have sold it myself.
I'm sure they had to replace the transmission and fix the broken gizmo that I didn't know about. Grin. I believe it was delivered on a Thursday evening and was sitting ready to deliver on Saturday afternoon. They probably had a buyer before they signed papers for it.
... **It was on the backlot all washed and sold when I went back by two days later. Their total cost of prepping the car was a wash job and maybe a wax: two hours of labor time?** ...
Thats a nice deal -- in a perfect world ... unfortunately, in the "real world" it doesn't work out that way .... you have folks trading 65/75k vehicles that need tires, new hoses, belts, filters and that darn dog hair just doesn't want to come out, and lets not forget that little oil drip every 2/3 days, and gosh darn-it, the air "just" quit when he was trading it in - funny how that works .....
And depending on the dealer (mostly imports) they don't have a home for that 99 Buick Century, that 02 Lincoln LS with 23,000 itty bitty miles, lets not forget that cute little 01 Corolla with 97k with warm air and the tires are weak and we will kinda ignore that little kiss on the entire drivers side that was painted by Jeffrey Dahmer .. and that super clean, but high mileage Suburban just can't find a home at the Honda store ..... aah yes in a perfect world it all works - but throw a little reality in there and all of sudden the dealer is trying to unload one or all of these beauties for a loss ~ just to break even ......
**Dealers do want your used car** ....... if dealers wanted every used car, then God wouldn't have invented auctions ...........................
I'm confused. Are you saying every car you get in trade has these awful, hidden flaws that require more cost to repair for sale? Or are you listing a representation of a small percent.
If you're saying it is more than a small percent, then you aren't having your "people" check the tradein before you offer a price well enough.
See post 1888 since you're implying it had hidden flaws requiring repairs.
>Thats a nice deal It was. I wanted a larger car and the dealer got a car that lots of people were buying for new drivers in their family.
Not all salesman and dealers are bad. I have had bad experiences and witnessed worse. It's hard to be honest and ethical in a sea of sharks so I offer my apology to you.
Go to edmunds - tip & advise - confessions of a car salesman. I'm from the New York area and the majority of dealers here are like this. One time I was given a great price on a car only to see a $650.00 office and clerical fee on the contract. I walked out.
I did end my post with "keep the transactions separate" The simpler the process the better for both parties.
I honestly doubt many will shed a tear for your dealership.
In the instance you described, your dealership chose to sell this on their lot as opposed to wholesale it. Had you selected the later, the dealership would most likely had even money on the trade-in, although a lower net profit on the deal as a whole, the burden would have been on the wholesaler to restore the car. Maybe all the facts aren't disclosed in this instance also? What back end money was received by the dealership from the manufacturer in terms of sales volume generated over a specified time period???
Most would agree dealerships will not be around long if they buy and sell at the same price. most consumers aren't asking for this. Just not the typical gouging that has taken place for years. Dealerships also seem slower to develop newer standards in terms of managerial hierarchy. Other industry's fall in line with auto sales as well (retail precious stones i.e diamonds) Maybe thinning out the ranks? Pist....you in the corner, If you really need to talk to your manager.....maybe your not needed.
In the instance of used vehicles, dealers (at least those I personally know) use galves auto guide, other variables exist such as market conditions for particular vehicles, etc. I'm not sure how comparable Galves is to KBB trade-in value at this time. The undeniable dealer benefit to used car sales is........(drum roll) no cross shopping!!! For new cars you can browse dealership lots and in the event no one has the particular combination of specs one can be ordered. Used cars while subjectively evaluated in some instances are all very different, "cream puffs" as used by those in the retail auto field are "low low miles' and "one owner" well maintained. The customer in no way could ever argue what the dealership paid for any used car unless they are provided such inside dealer purchasing info (never gonna happen). Also, accidents, damage, etc is extremely hard if almost impossible to detect. Car Fax you say??? A Joke!!!.......Net profit abounds.
Dealers "DO" in fact want your trade in, for at the very least to blur the lines of a sale. I recently went to shop the new Infiniti M (Mark I hope your not watching). The dealership begged to include my expiring RX lease in to the deal almost to the point of becoming Irate when I said......NO!...Marco?...Poll...NO!!!
I tend to question a salesmen's interests in general, how does someone that earns their income through commission at the expense of the customer have that customers best interests in mind. With that being said, how could the dealership ever attain higher volume sales which has it's own benefits in terms of increased manufacturer to dealership money?....the salesmen ultimately serves no one but themselves.
Why should a salesman act the customer's interest? Of course he acts in his and the store's interest - that's his job, and there's nothing wrong with that. He's a salesman, not an attorney.
The customer is responsible for acting in his/her own interest, including doing the necessary homework.
Re-read the last paragraph in my post. I'm inferring they have neither the customer, nor the dealerships best interest in mind. They are self serving, thus the customer and the dealership both lose. The salesmen will let a customer walk out doing a disservice to the dealership if their (salesmen) needs are not met.
Also, other's have mentioned reality in the same breath as cars, very different and a bad analogy. Vehicles depreciate, while land does not. Well unless you bought in the late 80's and sold in the early 90s or as recent publications have suggested bought in the last 2.5 years and plan to sell a few years from now. Realitors are much like car salesmen. The higher the selling price the more commission. How do you serve the buyer honorably in this case.
Reality or realty? "Also, other's have mentioned reality in the same breath as cars, very different and a bad analogy." Probably a true sentence in either case, but I suspect you meant realty...
Anyway, I know there are sales people who work to their own self interest to the detriment of the store, but they usually don't last too long in a decent dealership. It was they who caused the requirement for the sales manager's approval in the first place. If they aren't working to the store's interest management will weed them out. Ideally they want to find a deal that serves the store and is consistent with their own interest at the same time.
But I will agree that there are exceptions, as there are to almost anything. Ymmv.
......... As soon as I read "the Galves book" I had a feeling you were from the far northeast, yep your from Conn ... it's used in about 2.2 states, the funny part is, they throw that puppy out when they get to the "real world" and buy a few vehicles at some real auctions ... but I digress ..
**I'm inferring they have neither the customer, nor the dealerships best interest in mind. They are self serving, thus the customer and the dealership both lose.** ...
Salesman like that just don't turn and burn customers at their will, they may last a week, they may even last a month (if that) .. dealers pay alot of money for their advertising and floor traffic is watched veeeeery closely, the average store spends $257 per copy just to get a customer into the dealership, let alone selling him a vehicle .... as far as Realtors are concerned, I could spend hours on that subject, they make dealers look like Sister Teresa, but ~ I will stay on topic .........................
" The timing chain is worn and making noise. The power steering rack leaks, the oil pan gasket needs to be replaced and it needs brakes all around. >
Sounds like you need a new mechanic. Didn't they start the engine and listen? How could they miss leaking fluid, leaking oil, and bad brakes. There had to be some residue on the engine that would indicate the leaks. And even I could pull a wheel off and check brake pads.
Brings up an interesting question, how much of an inspection is done when a trade in is appraised? Hopefully more than a one or two minute fluid check. If not, then you only have yourself to blame.
You'd be surprised, the varying business practices of dealerships in general. A business I part own happens to work with several dealerships, all operating very differently. One has a revolving door policy with it's sales team, I've spoken at length with the longest tenured sales manager. He brings new young slick salespeople with little experience into the store. Has them sell to their friends, relatives, etc. After they're dried up, moves onto the next. Guess what makes they sell??? Another rotates sales managers, they feel that managers are disposable, the sales people that come in contact with the customer are most important and need to build a rapport. Either method, still the same good cop, bad cop story......doesn't this get old after awhile???
Funniest trade in story and true but you'd swear I'm lying.......a relative who is a Lexus service manager. Purchases/leases around 15+ cars per year (yes bad habit). Traded in a Corvette (current model year) to a BMW dealership in a deal for a 3 series convertible. The dealership never took a look at the car, only the title that read "Coupe" offered him more then what he paid for it. He scratched his head on this one. When he drove to the dealership he parked the car in the back. Asked them if they would like to inspect it. They didn't, made the deal and he drove off. (I was negotiating a 3 series lease with them at the same time). They called him and stated, "This is a coupe not a convertible." He said, "I know, the title says coupe." I never found out if he paid them the difference, but that was the first and last BMW he owned....Believe it or not???
alfox, I meant realty.......but the way I posted it does make more sense :P
Thae last thing I would want would be for anyone to shed a tear for me.
My intent was simply to point out the fact that dealers don't always make the evil profit on used cars that some people think they do.
I have never seen a "Galves" book nor do I know a thing about their pricing. It's not any "book" that determines value anyway. The current MARKET is what determines this.
Funny how much people who aren't in the business seem to know so much about it.
Well, first of all, mechanics do not appraise the trades. They are appraised by the sales managers who are very experienced at evaluating the condition of a car.
In a perfect world, we would take an hour and a half, raise the cars up on a lift, pull the wheels, check the compression etc. No busy dealer has the time for that.
Yes, we did start the engine and we listened. The timing chain rattle wasn't that bad and was much louder when it was cold. Nobody would have caught it. The leaking PS rack wasn't gushing fluid and impossible to detect unless on a rack. Same with the oil pan gasket. The brakes weren't down to the wear indicators just thin.
So, yes, we only have ourselves to blame. Our appraisers do a very good job but they don't have X-ray vision.
My point was/is...unexpected reconditioning costs can detract markedly from all of the horrible (gasp) profit a dealer makes. Just a part of the business.
The Galves book is used in the far northeast region .. usually in the Connecticut, Maine, Naw Hamsha area .. you also see some trickle down into the NY area and then some dealers "try" using them in the Philly area - "if" ~ they can keep a straight face ..... .... the funny part is, when they come to buy at the "big" auctions, those books dissapear, or they get that "dead mullet look on their face" ... you can usually tell the experienced buyers vs the rookies in about 7.5 minutes ..l.o.l.....
Depending on the vehicle, the color, time of the year and the miles, they can be 5/10% less than current market value ...
I come from the "Galves" region - though we use a variety of books, and auction reports to come to a value. depending on the car, we are more likely to price NADA or KBB than another car which we may price at Galves. What books (if any) do you recommend, or do you strictly use auction reports to come up with your numbers?
im just curious! i am honestly surprised that only the northeast uses Galves! their website (surprise surprised) made it sound like they are THE source for pricing guides!
Only in these forums have I heard of the Galves book and I've never seen one.
It's difficult for some people to accept the fact that these books are simply "guides" that may or may not reflect what their car is really worth. a used car is only worth whatever the current market dictates.
Had a guy in yesteday with a nice looking 1999 Expedition that, alas, had 140,000 miles on it. Of course, we heard about the "all freeway miles" and the "3000 mile oil changes" and I believe him. The truck looked like a 40,000 miler.
He "knew what it was worth". Had reams of computer printouts etc. I gently suggested that he sell it himself.
Comments
Kudos to the dealership where thene works.
What happenned to all the cute little emoticon cars?
I've been asked to sign an offer before I know what the selling price is,
a credit application or permission to review my credit (I'm a cash buyer),
a form requiring me to carry collision & comprehensive (again, I don't
finance my cars), a waiver of the right to sue, but the prize goes to a
waiver of my right to a copy of the previous owner's milage statement.
(Hey, what's this for? Oh, we need it to register the car. Uh huh!)
I always ask to see this anyway. I want the previous owner's name
and address so I can call him about the car. I also ask for a Carfax
report and the car's service history with the manufacturer.
"My Pappy told me: 'When a man wants you to sign something, he's
trying to get you to do something you're not gonna want to do.' "
~ Bret Maverick
i dont know if i'd want all these potential customers on my trade in calling me about my old car anyways!
-thene
Somebody in the biz, either the departed driftracer or isellhondas, commented a few weeks or months ago that they would not sell a car to a person refusing to sign the said waiver - nothing personal, store policy.
I think the fundamental thing thenebean is getting at in #2846, and the thing that drives isell crazy when a customer will drive a couple of hours to save $50 bucks, is that dealers aren't differentiated very well.
First, once you've decided on a make and model, cars are commodity products: An xyzmobile from dealer a is the same as an xyzmobile from dealer B. Even worse, for most classes of cars, there is no clear winner for the average consumer, so the xyzmobile is very, very close to the abcmobile as long as they are in the same class.
In a commodity market, price typically becomes the differentiator. I agree that driving 100 miles to save $50 is crazy. But how else to differentiate XYZ co two dealers than price? Especially when the two dealers are effectively the same distance from my house?
Relationship selling? Come on, this is a business transaction that I don't perform more than once every couple of years at the most. And even then, I'm very rarely in the market for the same type of car the next time I'm around (I alternate between buying a new commuter and a new family car), so the earliest you can expect me back is about 5 years, probably much longer than that. And even then, the odds of me wanting the same car are slim. I'm not that different from most people. People just don't buy cars often enough for relationship based sales to differentiate the dealership significantly.
Low-pressure sales? This is one where it is worth some money to me. I've had a very good experiences with a certain Subaru dealer. If I was in the market for another subaru, I would go back to them in a heartbeat and not shop around too much. Only problem is, I won't be in the market for another Subaru for at least 3 more years, and who knows what subaru will have available by then? So it's worth some money, but not a whole lot.
With a dealer you don't know, you don't find out that they are high-pressure until you have a settled price. By that point, you've already paid the price and you may as well take the lower cost car.
Quality of service maybe? That only happens after the sale, and it's hard to know the quality of service until after you've bought the darn car. Sure, word of mouth can help, but *all* dealers do warranty work. Service is fairly fungible from dealer to dealer in my experience.
It's even worse when all the dealers around you are good, solid companies with nice sales-people and good service departments. That just makes them equal to the buyer. How are you going to differnentiate yourself?
It's just hard for a dealer to differentiate themselves in such a competitive market for what is essentially a commodity, so price becomes one of, if not the, most important differentiator there. Price and location.
When I asked about it a few months ago here, the advice I got was that it's really not legally enforceable when you get to the legal details, but it does a good job at weeding out the bogus lawsuits.
owner information due to privacy laws...
"i dont know if i'd want all these potential customers on my trade in
calling me about my old car anyways!"
New York State's DMV requires Form MV-50 Retail Certificate of Sale
which gives: "Name and Address of Previous Owner" and their affidavit
as to the car's mileage. Of course, the dealer can ask the buyer to waive
the right to a copy or to omit the information on the customer copy.
in michigan, it is up to the selling dealer whether to give the information. same goes in indiana. in ohio, it is illegal to give the information, and in kentucky it is required by law.
"In Utah, it is illegal for a woman to disrobe on stage.
In New York, she may; in Nevada, she must."
Having every state cook up their own little rules and regulations, and a bunch of them their own emissions requirements, is completely coo-koo.
Of course, I also think that any country covering more than one time zone should split in two...
-Mathias
Ahh.. a secessionist..
I'll go along with that, as long as Indiana ends up in a different country :P
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I was just wondering what exactly that means as pertaining to someone who lives in virginia,buying in maryland. I will be buying a new vehicle this weekend and was wondering if all or some dealers require you to sign the arbitration agreement and also what are some issues that come up when you may need to go to an arbitrator. any info would be appreciated.
Well, I have been talking to a dealership by e-mail now for about 2 weeks. I have found that ALL dealerships are trying to double dip on their profits when a trade-in is in play. Just thought that I would try and help others out as well.
Here is the deal: I own 15,000 on my car and dealer wants to give me 10,000. If I buy a car from them, the trade-in difference goes right on top of their price. So the car that I am looking at is 20,000+ the 5,000 difference in my trade in. If I buy at this price then I spent 25,000 on a 20,000 dollar car. Now here is where the dealer is making all of the money. They turn to the next guy and sell him my trade-in for 15,000. That is 5,000 in instant profit, seeing how I am also paying their difference from trade-in on top of my "new" car. They then can make a financing profit on the two cars if people finance through them. Does this seem right??? All of the while they will tell you that they are not making that much money on this deal. Just think the average store only makes 1-3% profit on each of their products.
What you need to do is not buy another car until you have paid down the loan on your current car until you are no longer upside down. Buying a new car now will leave you in this same mess again in 2 to 3 years when you buy your next car. Suck it up and keep driving your current car for a couple of more years. You will come out way ahead financially over buying a new car now.
Finally, if it still doesn't seem right or fair to you, don't buy the car. Go to another dealer and find another deal. I bet you wind up in the same situation. :shades:
P.S. By the way, it is not $5000 in instant profit. It would be $5000 in instant revenue. Not the same thing. Revenue - expenses = profit. :surprise:
It doesn't quite work that way ..l.o.l...
You have a payoff on your vehicle ... and the pay-off is nothing more or nothing less than the echo or the shadow of the loan - it has nothing to do with the dealer ... in this case and in the case of 80% of todays buyers, you have what's called: "negative equity" - you owe more than the value of the vehicle ..... maybe you had it on the last vehicle and carried it over to this one (as most people do) or "maybe" you put little or no money down on this loan and you started from a negative position from day one, then add some taxes, have the depreciation kick-in and - Wango Tango, you owe more than it's worth ........ at least your in the majority of buyers ..............
Terry.
Where do I sign up? :surprise:
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330 xi automatic '05
premium package, heated seats
for 34, 500$ (bottom line price w/out any other surcharges)
Is this worth it?
thanks
You need to read the posts before you reply ..
Paid $10 and sold it for $15.? .. we don't have all the facts here -- and you, of all people know there is 3 prices when someone sells a vehicle ... no one "makes" someone trade a vehicle, they have options, like selling it on their own and getting $13+ .. again, we don't have the whole story - it's like real estate, do you sell it on your own (fisbo) or do you pay an agent $25,000 to wander around the yard and point out that you have 2 walk-in closets ......?
Terry.
Actually, that's a very untrue statement .. dealers hate to see deals come across the their desks and the potential buyer is 3,0/5,0/$7,000 out of whack, they need to cover all the taxes and any and all of the negative equity with any rebates and/or dealer cash .. what usually happens, the dealer loads up in the trade and makes little (if anything) on the new vehicle, as far as the F&I is concerned, the store is beating the lenders silly trying to get $32,000 approved on a $25,000 vehicle, and usually the buyer has little or no cash down --- you do the math, it ain't no lottery ticket ..l.o.l...
2.) **Have you ever heard of dealers really losing money on someones trade-in. If they can get two different buyers hooked into their F&I program, they are now getting two people to pay interest on one car**
Yes, it happens every minute of everyday in every city of America, it's the flea's that come with the dog ... remember, dealers aren't lenders, they might make $200/$300 on a finance deal, but as soon as that vehicle is traded or refinanced that source is over ..
The car buying experience can be very easy - or not, it depends on the person .. some would rather "think" they know whats going on, and then you have others that take their time, do their homework and understand the real deal .. just like real estate, some folks pay $425,000 for a home, and then you have others that pay $490,000 for the same home on the same street ... info my friend, Info.!
If you really want to know what your vehicle is worth, spin over to "Real World trade-in Values" and I can tell you were your sitting in your vehicle ....
Terry
keep the transactions separate.
Charlie
Thank you for all of the info, you are a big help. I know that I don't know a darn thing about the auto business, I have been trying to do my own research, and it seems that everyone is out to get the dealer/salesman on these forums. That is not what I want. I just want to feel that I am getting the best deal someone can offer, and not be taken advantage of. I want to go to a dealership, have them tell me all of the numbers up front, and see if I can afford it. But as you very well know, that seems to be a very rare to have that happen. I know more about the car that I want then the salesman, I just want to know more about the numbers game that seems to be going on.
Steve :confuse:
i had a woman come in with a 98 volvo wagon who wanted $7200 - we were able to show her $6200 - high miles, a car we would auction, wholesale price. she now has a sticker on the car that says "for sale - $9000"
thats over RETAIL in almost every book!
is she not screwing anyone out of their money?
the dealer does want to take in cars on trade - we sometimes have the opportunity to make some money on them (again, the point of running a business - to make money). some cars however do not work well on certain lots - we are willing to pay more for cars that we think we can sell.
its a tricky business with lots of variables - please don't generalize and say we're always screwing you.
hopefully your next experience is a better one, seems like you had a bad experience to say something like that!
-thene
Of course you can do that yourself by selling your car rather than trading it.
This isn't at every dealer but this is how it was explained to me long ago. The total from those trades is greater than profit on your new purchase. I recall trading an 85 Skyhawk J car and it never saw the front of the dealership. It was on the backlot all washed and sold when I went back by two days later. Their total cost of prepping the car was a wash job and maybe a wax: two hours of labor time?
I realize this is not at all dealers. I priced at a downtown Buick dealer and he took my trade over a high volume Chevy dealer nearby for a trade value from their guy. It would have gone to their used lot; higher traffic artery, higher volume, easier sale than the Buick location.
Other cars get wholesaled. My dealer where I've traded lately is straightforward when he's going to wholesale my used trade. That doesn't mean the auctions. He has buyers who come around to pick up cars he doesn't want on his own lot. He keeps cars with mileage lower than 75K.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I learned everything I know about cars from you....
regards,
kyfdx
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In my opinion, you are asking for too much.
Your attitude is, "I will be happy when people behave in a way that pleases me."
Well, dream on. People don't behave like you want them to. You have to figure out a way to enjoy life despite their behavior.
If you want to enjoy car buying and get a fairly low price, then you will have to make the effort to learn how to do it. This DG is an excellent place to start.
By the way, I don't think car dealers are doing anything wrong in trying to get all of the money they can from your pocket. You just have to learn how to act in your own best interest.
And, you are assuming a lot when you say that dealership's "total cost of prepping" your 85 skyhawk amounted to a wash and wax job.
How do you know they didn't wholesale it? It's also possible the shop discovered hundreds of dollars of work that car needed that you didn't even know about?
It's tiring to read about how much money greedy dealers make.
I recently took in a NICE Explorer from a very fussy customer who had kept it in top shape. It looked and smelled like new and it had low miles for it's age. The customer demanded top dollar for it. Even though the current gas prices are killing the resale of these now, we stuck our neck out and paid him more than we should have in order to make a very skinny deal on the new car.
We paid extra because of the pristine condition (we thought) of the Explorer.
Well, guess what?
Our intense used car inspection revealed a few things that I honestly believe the customer was unaware of. Things our appraiser couldn't have known about.
The timing chain is worn and making noise. The power steering rack leaks, the oil pan gasket needs to be replaced and it needs brakes all around.
A couple of other things too...I can't remember.
Oh, the money we're going to make on THIS deal!
Sound familar, Terry?
Because it was about 2 years old and had 40K or so on it. Prime. I should have sold it myself.
I'm sure they had to replace the transmission and fix the broken gizmo that I didn't know about. Grin. I believe it was delivered on a Thursday evening and was sitting ready to deliver on Saturday afternoon. They probably had a buyer before they signed papers for it.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Thats a nice deal -- in a perfect world ... unfortunately, in the "real world" it doesn't work out that way .... you have folks trading 65/75k vehicles that need tires, new hoses, belts, filters and that darn dog hair just doesn't want to come out, and lets not forget that little oil drip every 2/3 days, and gosh darn-it, the air "just" quit when he was trading it in - funny how that works .....
And depending on the dealer (mostly imports) they don't have a home for that 99 Buick Century, that 02 Lincoln LS with 23,000 itty bitty miles, lets not forget that cute little 01 Corolla with 97k with warm air and the tires are weak and we will kinda ignore that little kiss on the entire drivers side that was painted by Jeffrey Dahmer .. and that super clean, but high mileage Suburban just can't find a home at the Honda store ..... aah yes in a perfect world it all works - but throw a little reality in there and all of sudden the dealer is trying to unload one or all of these beauties for a loss ~ just to break even ......
**Dealers do want your used car** ....... if dealers wanted every used car, then God wouldn't have invented auctions ...........................
Terry.
If you're saying it is more than a small percent, then you aren't having your "people" check the tradein before you offer a price well enough.
See post 1888 since you're implying it had hidden flaws requiring repairs.
>Thats a nice deal
It was. I wanted a larger car and the dealer got a car that lots of people were buying for new drivers in their family.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Go to edmunds - tip & advise - confessions of a car salesman. I'm from the New York area and the majority of dealers here are like this. One time I was given a great price on a car only to see a $650.00 office and clerical fee on the contract. I walked out.
I did end my post with "keep the transactions separate" The simpler the process the better for both parties.
Charlie
In the instance you described, your dealership chose to sell this on their lot as opposed to wholesale it. Had you selected the later, the dealership would most likely had even money on the trade-in, although a lower net profit on the deal as a whole, the burden would have been on the wholesaler to restore the car. Maybe all the facts aren't disclosed in this instance also? What back end money was received by the dealership from the manufacturer in terms of sales volume generated over a specified time period???
Most would agree dealerships will not be around long if they buy and sell at the same price. most consumers aren't asking for this. Just not the typical gouging that has taken place for years. Dealerships also seem slower to develop newer standards in terms of managerial hierarchy. Other industry's fall in line with auto sales as well (retail precious stones i.e diamonds) Maybe thinning out the ranks? Pist....you in the corner, If you really need to talk to your manager.....maybe your not needed.
In the instance of used vehicles, dealers (at least those I personally know) use galves auto guide, other variables exist such as market conditions for particular vehicles, etc. I'm not sure how comparable Galves is to KBB trade-in value at this time. The undeniable dealer benefit to used car sales is........(drum roll) no cross shopping!!! For new cars you can browse dealership lots and in the event no one has the particular combination of specs one can be ordered. Used cars while subjectively evaluated in some instances are all very different, "cream puffs" as used by those in the retail auto field are "low low miles' and "one owner" well maintained. The customer in no way could ever argue what the dealership paid for any used car unless they are provided such inside dealer purchasing info (never gonna happen). Also, accidents, damage, etc is extremely hard if almost impossible to detect. Car Fax you say??? A Joke!!!.......Net profit abounds.
Dealers "DO" in fact want your trade in, for at the very least to blur the lines of a sale. I recently went to shop the new Infiniti M (Mark I hope your not watching). The dealership begged to include my expiring RX lease in to the deal almost to the point of becoming Irate when I said......NO!...Marco?...Poll...NO!!!
I tend to question a salesmen's interests in general, how does someone that earns their income through commission at the expense of the customer have that customers best interests in mind. With that being said, how could the dealership ever attain higher volume sales which has it's own benefits in terms of increased manufacturer to dealership money?....the salesmen ultimately serves no one but themselves.
The customer is responsible for acting in his/her own interest, including doing the necessary homework.
Also, other's have mentioned reality in the same breath as cars, very different and a bad analogy. Vehicles depreciate, while land does not. Well unless you bought in the late 80's and sold in the early 90s or as recent publications have suggested bought in the last 2.5 years and plan to sell a few years from now. Realitors are much like car salesmen. The higher the selling price the more commission. How do you serve the buyer honorably in this case.
Anyway, I know there are sales people who work to their own self interest to the detriment of the store, but they usually don't last too long in a decent dealership. It was they who caused the requirement for the sales manager's approval in the first place. If they aren't working to the store's interest management will weed them out. Ideally they want to find a deal that serves the store and is consistent with their own interest at the same time.
But I will agree that there are exceptions, as there are to almost anything. Ymmv.
**I'm inferring they have neither the customer, nor the dealerships best interest in mind. They are self serving, thus the customer and the dealership both lose.** ...
Salesman like that just don't turn and burn customers at their will, they may last a week, they may even last a month (if that) .. dealers pay alot of money for their advertising and floor traffic is watched veeeeery closely, the average store spends $257 per copy just to get a customer into the dealership, let alone selling him a vehicle .... as far as Realtors are concerned, I could spend hours on that subject, they make dealers look like Sister Teresa, but ~ I will stay on topic .........................
Terry.
Sounds like you need a new mechanic. Didn't they start the engine and listen? How could they miss leaking fluid, leaking oil, and bad brakes. There had to be some residue on the engine that would indicate the leaks. And even I could pull a wheel off and check brake pads.
Brings up an interesting question, how much of an inspection is done when a trade in is appraised? Hopefully more than a one or two minute fluid check. If not, then you only have yourself to blame.
Can you say FSBO (For Sale By Owner)? Ooops, sorry, off topic.
Funniest trade in story and true but you'd swear I'm lying.......a relative who is a Lexus service manager. Purchases/leases around 15+ cars per year (yes bad habit). Traded in a Corvette (current model year) to a BMW dealership in a deal for a 3 series convertible. The dealership never took a look at the car, only the title that read "Coupe" offered him more then what he paid for it. He scratched his head on this one. When he drove to the dealership he parked the car in the back. Asked them if they would like to inspect it. They didn't, made the deal and he drove off. (I was negotiating a 3 series lease with them at the same time). They called him and stated, "This is a coupe not a convertible." He said, "I know, the title says coupe." I never found out if he paid them the difference, but that was the first and last BMW he owned....Believe it or not???
alfox, I meant realty.......but the way I posted it does make more sense :P
I would like to know what the makes are. I must have missed a detail somewhere if I should already know what makes...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
My intent was simply to point out the fact that dealers don't always make the evil profit on used cars that some people think they do.
I have never seen a "Galves" book nor do I know a thing about their pricing. It's not any "book" that determines value anyway. The current MARKET is what determines this.
Funny how much people who aren't in the business seem to know so much about it.
In a perfect world, we would take an hour and a half, raise the cars up on a lift, pull the wheels, check the compression etc. No busy dealer has the time for that.
Yes, we did start the engine and we listened. The timing chain rattle wasn't that bad and was much louder when it was cold. Nobody would have caught it. The leaking PS rack wasn't gushing fluid and impossible to detect unless on a rack. Same with the oil pan gasket. The brakes weren't down to the wear indicators just thin.
So, yes, we only have ourselves to blame. Our appraisers do a very good job but they don't have X-ray vision.
My point was/is...unexpected reconditioning costs can detract markedly from all of the horrible (gasp) profit a dealer makes. Just a part of the business.
The Galves book is used in the far northeast region .. usually in the Connecticut, Maine, Naw Hamsha area .. you also see some trickle down into the NY area and then some dealers "try" using them in the Philly area - "if" ~ they can keep a straight face ..... .... the funny part is, when they come to buy at the "big" auctions, those books dissapear, or they get that "dead mullet look on their face" ... you can usually tell the experienced buyers vs the rookies in about 7.5 minutes ..l.o.l.....
Depending on the vehicle, the color, time of the year and the miles, they can be 5/10% less than current market value ...
Terry.
I come from the "Galves" region - though we use a variety of books, and auction reports to come to a value. depending on the car, we are more likely to price NADA or KBB than another car which we may price at Galves. What books (if any) do you recommend, or do you strictly use auction reports to come up with your numbers?
im just curious! i am honestly surprised that only the northeast uses Galves! their website (surprise surprised) made it sound like they are THE source for pricing guides!
-thene
It's difficult for some people to accept the fact that these books are simply "guides" that may or may not reflect what their car is really worth. a used car is only worth whatever the current market dictates.
Had a guy in yesteday with a nice looking 1999 Expedition that, alas, had 140,000 miles on it. Of course, we heard about the "all freeway miles" and the "3000 mile oil changes" and I believe him. The truck looked like a 40,000 miler.
He "knew what it was worth". Had reams of computer printouts etc. I gently suggested that he sell it himself.