i love how people know what their car is worth, and want every penny....but want us to sell them our brand new car for a ridiculously low number...
people forget that their trade will be sold to someone else, who could care less if it has 140,000 "freeway" miles. 140,000 ANY miles is a lot - and won't be worth it to them as it is worth to the person who is trying to trade it in.
i always like to tell people that they should call KBB and have them write a check for the car at their "suggested" price, then come back and buy the car at the price we had worked out. gets them thinkin' pretty quickly... ;-)
I've done quite a few deals here in NJ over the years and EVERY dealer I've been to (domestic/japanese/euro) has used Galves .... except one volvo dealer who pulled out this overpriced black book (and tried showing this is what the used car he was selling was worth wholesale, but then insisted on using the lower Galves number to price my trade-in. you can guess how long that conversation lasted).
I know, I know, its no indication of anything and it may or may not be accurate (although it usually jives with Terry's auction numbers come trade time). BUT, the reason I'm bringing this up (aside from the recent mention of it) is that it does dictate the market around here. Not because of its accuracy, but because of its consistent use. If all dealers within 50 miles of me use this book, then all offer the same trade-in of my vehicle and every other vehicle everyone is trying to trade in. This, in turn, dictates, in many case, what folks will ask for on the private side after they come to grips with reality that they won't get what they want for their precious cars from the local dealers. So, the question becomes, does the market drive the books or do the books drive the market? (referring to the example of my area, anyway)
I don't know, I thought it was interesting. Just a bit of monday morning philosophising.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Buying and selling anything, including cars, is a lot easier on everyone in inverse proportion to the emotional level existing during dealing. Buyers and sellers alike can make themselves remain relatively objective. It is an art worthy of learning. In short, "take a chill" and ease up. Both sides have money at stake, so of course they have opposite intent in the "bargaining". What's with all the anger, frustration, and contempt? Get over it! :shades:
Versus what.?? .. 140,000 miles driven down hill and towed back ...? ...l.o.l....
There is no real book that's the Bible .. and most important, you need to be able to *read and understand* what it's saying if your going to rely on any info source, whats hot and whats not and knowing the market and what that particular region reflects ....
I was in NC last week house hunting, and one of the super large Yota dealers is a good friend and we were going to play some golf, phones ringing, people talking, etc etc .. he asks me to put a number on a 02 Ford Excursion, so we can get out of there and because his UC guy is lost .... it's a 4x4, it's got 27k, it's a nice clean Limited, new sneaks, right color, no smoke, Disney package, all the stuff with all the service - and it's a 7.3 Dsl, so I figure $27,0 and the customer wanted $28, but they put their deal together ......
Anywaaaaay ... we leave and play some golf, come back and his UC guy is laying on the floor in the middle of an anxiety attack .l.o.l... .. he apologizes, but he can't believe I would even think close to that figure -- he think's it's a $18,000 driver because it makes noise and the lifters/valves are 2 minutes away from history ..l.o.l... ........ it's a diesel dummy, with no miles and they do $28/$29 all day long at any auction on the east coast .. that's what happens when you "literally" read the books (and your an import dealer) ..................... ...... me, I'm from the old school, I watch every vehicle in the country via the auctions and "adapt" the black book to those figures ......
I gotta admit, I am surprised a trade in isn't checked out better mechanically. As a buyer, I'd have no problem if the dealer took an hour or so to evaluate my trade. It usually takes longer than that for the test drive and negotiations for the new purchase anyway.
But then again, on a busy Sat., you'd need an army of mechanics to check out every possible trade-in.
most people come in wanting to get their appraisal done in 10 minutes or less. would they really want us to have the time to find everything wrong with their vehicle so we can reduce the value even less? I would love to be able to have our techs do that, so we REALLY can put a value on the vehicle based on condition (other than the visual kind) but no one would want us to really delve into the condition of their vehicle.
it's nice to know that you would be willing to have that happen, but i think you are in the minority (unfortunately!)
we had a guy once come in and look at a car, and want his vehicle appraised. he parked it along side the building (instead of a parking spot) figuring that we'd take it for a spin (just pull forward and go) and not check the vehicle by putting it in reverse (since we didnt have to back it out of a spot). lo and behold, he was trying to hide the fact that reverse DID NOT WORK! needless to say, we figured it out and priced the car appropriately...
Most people in the business know what goes bad on different models and different cars. When they see a huffmobile they know it's likely to have slipping tranny from 2 to 3rd gear. So they drive looking for that symptom. I've noticed my dealer owner/salesman looks at people's cars when they just stop in to shop or pick up parts or whatever. It's like he's checking the wear/tear on them. When it's time to trade he hardly looks at it because he already knows how it's doing and i f it ticks when you drive away or has dents and dings from golf balls like my 93 LeSabre.
It's hard to believe a dealer didn't catch timing chain noise on a Ford SUV especially if that's a common problem. But those things happen.
Doesn't the dealership quote with the appropriate buffer in place should any conditions exist that need repair?
No I'm not directly involved in vehicle sales, although my family has been for years, as was I for a short time. I currently service local dealerships direct for aftermarket add-ons in a business i hold ownership in. Another product the dealerships mark up significantly.
Again, nothing wrong with profit, gouging is was leaves the bad taste in customers mouths. And it's funny how some in the business are not aware of useful tools and indicators available to them.
... **I've done quite a few deals here in NJ over the years and EVERY dealer I've been to (domestic/japanese/euro) has used - Galves .... ** ...
The funny part is, one of the largest auctions in the country is right down the street from you .. dealers will use the black book on every purchase from that auction ..... the Galves book is indiginious to the NE area, and they use what they use to show a lower price, so it's kind of a "false market" ... there is plenty of NY/NJ dealers that come down here to buy 4x4's and cleaner used vehicles -- once on a blue moon, you'll see some dummy flicking thru the pages of one .. usually we have to take him to the Emergency Room for all of those paper cuts ..............................................
I just recently turned in a lease car at lease end to a different dealer than I leased it from (moved from NJ to NH a couple of years ago). I had been wondering if I should try and sell it myself as it was in exceptional shape, and slightly under mileage, however, the TMV here at Edmunds pegged its "Private Party" resale value at $28,444, which was almost exactly what the residual was on the car.
When the leasing manager saw my car his first comment was, "Oh yeah, we're keepin' that one."
My response was, "Really? Why?"
"Mr. Shipo, do you have any idea how hard it is to find a nicely equipped 530i with both the Sport Package and a 5-Speed manual?"
"Well, yeah, that's why I placed a factory order in the first place."
Long story short, it was up on the BMW-USA CPO locater service two days later, listed at $36,999. Hey, from my perspective, if they can get that kind of money for MY car, then more power to them. ;-)
...is that dealers make good money on used cars, but not necessarily YOUR used car. If you're trading a well-kept, low-miler Accord at a Honda dealer, or even a nice Volvo at an Infiniti dealer, you may get "book". But if you're trying to dump a Chevy Impala at a BMW dealer (or really, any non-Chevy dealer), that sucker is getting wholesaled.
I imagine that sometimes the dealer makes a lorge amount on a used car (like the wash/wax/gone in 2 days example), but other times they get hit with excessive recon charges, or the market dries up and they get stuck with something the can't move.
Overall, the used car side should make a profit, but it has to vary by unit.
But, if you don't like what they offer, take it someplace else, or sell it yourself.
Check in your state. You might be able to get a copy of the buyer's title which will list the price. Ask around. It should be public information. In our state you can get limited information from the internet and the vin number to check the source of an automobile.
com'on stop poking fun at galves....the man, Murray Galves, essentially invented wholesale on jerome ave in NY. At one time, the wholesale capital of the world. long before those big fancy high dollar auctions that overfeed fat used car managers...lol
I laugh when a guy shows up here at the auctions with one of those little funny black books. Everyone in the place spots that book and wants to sell him their entire inventory...lol
"thats over RETAIL in almost every book! is she not screwing anyone out of their money? "
Only if they BUY it
Now to make things clearer, the dealers should:
1. list the agreed new car sell price 2. then add the tax on that price 3. then minus the agreed trade allowance (price) 4. then add payoff amunt of the trade (if any). 5. then minus any "after tax" rebates (if any)
but Nooooooooo they need to get stupid with convoluted calculations that even a genius (like myself) has a difficult time figuring out. And figure it out I do , because if the numbers don't match up with mine, I beat up F&I guy until he gets it "right" - which is defined as matching MY numbers not his. My way or the high way - that's what my wife is always complaing about about me.
"Dummy flicking threw the pages of one" a book the categories vehicles cheaper then a publication you use??? Shouldn't you applaud the person that's buying at a lower price point and selling at KBB or NADA???
How does one in the industry buy and sell at KBB or NADA and stay in business??? Please explain.
"I beat up F&I guy until he gets it "right" - which is defined as matching MY numbers not his. My way or the high way - that's what my wife is always complaing about about me."
Wow, Mike - you must be quite a man. I'm impressed! :rolleyes:
....... See .. you gotta "read" the posts before you post back ............
I never said "KBB or NADA" ... you did.
The vast market doesn't use the galves book .. so if your at an auction in KC, FL, MI or Atlanta your going to be leaving in the same vehicle you came in with ............... get it.?
It's kinda like me reading a 1998 Catalog on Formula boats .. the prices were much lower, but I'll never be able to buy one at that price ....
1. list the agreed new car sell price 2. then add the tax on that price 3. then minus the agreed trade allowance (price) 4. then add payoff amunt of the trade (if any). 5. then minus any "after tax" rebates (if any)
In many (most?) states, isn't tax only charged on the difference between the price and the trade-in value? For these, swap steps 2. and 3. I am right?
I imagine that sometimes the dealer makes a lorge amount on a used car (like the wash/wax/gone in 2 days example), but other times they get hit with excessive recon charges, or the market dries up and they get stuck with something the can't move.
Overall, the used car side should make a profit, but it has to vary by unit.
Excellent point. The corollary to it is that the risk of dealing in used cars has to be greater compared to new cars. Undisclosed damage (or damage unknown to seller, as isell mentioned), incorrect value assigned to a trade-in, change in market conditions, a chance that a car will have to be sent to an auction after all - all these appear to make used car business riskier than new. Hence the (potentially) larger rewards.
I already posted some of the story on another board here, and I've sent letters (and digital copies of tapes) to the Department of Consumer Affairs, state Attorney General's Office, the BBB and for good measure, the pope. I mean, why not? It can't hurt. So, I'll spare you all of the details, and ask any armchair attorneys for their opinion on this aspect of the holy ripping-off.
Let's say a relative -- oh, for sake of argument, a younger sister -- bought a car.
Let's say the finance manager told her the extended warranty was X-dollars, but in presenting a plan as an official Honda preferred customer plan, he could offer it to her at X-minus-dollars.
Let's say that warranty was sold as part of an even more expensive package that this sister was never told she was buying, as she was explicity told it was an official Honda package. (Other fishy fees were included, but that's for another day.)
Now, let's say little sis realizes she's been ripped off after she gets home, and also realizes there's no price listed for her warranty on the warranty paperwork.
Let's say the dealership refuses to provide an itemized breakdown of said alleged package (which included the aforementioned fishy fees) so little sis knows how much refund she's entitled to when she cancels the warranty, but in a recorded conversation with a sales manager, he says the warranty in that alleged package is X-dollars, not the X-minus-dollars promised, but "don't be surprised if you only get X-minus-dollars back."
Let's say at another recorded meeting, the head manager and finance manager both say the warranty was, in fact, X-dollars, not the X-minus dollars promised, but they still refuse to provide an itemized breakdown so little sis knows how much refund she's entitled to and tell her, "Call Honda and find out how much it's for." (And let's say they kick her out at this point.)
Okay, and let's say little sis calls Honda and finds out Honda has the warranty on record as X-minus-dollars, thus leaving one to believe the dealership happily pocketed that difference, leading to the sales manager making that odd comment about not being surprised about getting only X-minus-dollars back when he said X-dollars were paid.
So, is that considered fraud or just typical wheeling and dealing in the world of selling cars? Honda customer service is on this as best as they can be because I don't think they appreciate the manager saying on tape, "Honda lets me do whatever I want, charge whatever I want because I act as a broker for them." But I thought I'd get some feedback to see if anyone else has dealt with this -- or helped a family member with it -- or if anyone has advice.
To answer your question, no, I've never dealt with this kind of thing or "helped" either.
As far as your tape, it's worthless at best, except to help you sister "remember" what was being said. You are simply not allowed to secretly taping conversations, and it's not a good idea to announce on the web to have done so. I don't think it's actionable, don't get me wrong, but it's not a good idea.
As far as the mangaers statement that Honda lets him do whatever he want to; it's more like Honda does not have much to do with it. He sells their product, that's pretty much it. The only thing they can do if he misbehaves, is to affect his vehicle allocation. He does not work for them, he works for his dealership.
He's also a shyster, but what does that get you? Your sister was being stupid going in there signing stuff without knowing what was going on. That doesn't make it alright to take advantage of her in what sounds like pretty rotten deal.
This "X-minus-dollars" business is nothing other than the deaelrship making a profit on the warranty. Just liike Safeway making a profit on the milk they sell. Now, if sis can legally cancel the warranty, she is entitled to all of it back, the warranty an the profit. So I don't understand what's going on here, but notice the "If" at the beginning. If the dealership has "packaged" the warranty, they may have, in fact, sold her the warranty at cost, plus the "paint and fabric protection", a refund to which she is not entitled.
Sis should be happy she actually got a Honda warranty as promised, not some lousy aftermarket piece of paper which could be worth nothing. She's better off keeping the warranty than selling it back to Honda at dealer cost.
FWIW, it would have been a cinch to avoid this situation. Now it'll take some real finesse to get her money back. Chalk it up to experience, never go spend that kind of money when she doesn't know what she's doing, never buy from these clowns again, and forget about it.
It would help if we knew what the $$ amounts are we're talking about. Is it really that big a deal? A Honda at sticker is a better deal any day than a Cavalier with all available discounts, at least to me.
Terry, here is the whole thing on this double dipping dealers. I have been talking with a internet sales manager for a dealership. He gives me this very low quote of 12K for my car, then the very next sentence he say " We hope to make A Lot on your trade." Why can't we just deal with fair market value? I am all for the dealership making money, and the salesman on top too. But to just put it in your face like that, little disrespectful I thought. He should have just said " if you do this deal, then your a sucker". After learning from these forums, I know that I have to put off my purchase until it I am right side up in my current car. Of course when I told this to the dealer, he said that I would never be ahead with my current car, and if I don't buy now, then tomorrow my car will be worth-less, and everyday that I delay I am just losing money.
"After learning from these forums, I know that I have to put off my purchase until it I am right side up in my current car. Of course when I told this to the dealer, he said that I would never be ahead with my current car"
Errr, does that mean that if you pay your car off that you will then have to pay someone else to take it off your hands?
NEVER?? Unless you're driving a 1985 Toyota Tercel on which you owe $15K for the next 5 years, that sounds like hyperbole. Fairly simple mathematical calculations (at which I am less than competent) and reasonable projections will allow you to estimate the point at which you'll be rightside up, or at least even.
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and thats the same for the used cars we put on our lot. sure we price them for $3000 or so over what we gave you...but we only make that if someone BUYS it at that price...and we all know that people come in and haggle the price. (that and we lower prices on used cars if they've been sitting for a while"
have we made $3000 or more on a car? sure! do we do it often? not so much.
btw, in our state, you would subtract trade value first, then calculate taxes ;-) - but if you REALLY want to toss that extra money at me.... (wink wink)
When your little sister receives her warranty contract in the mail from Honda, she will have 45 days to cancel it and get a full refund. If it is financed the refund will go to the bank and not to her though. Have her read the back of the contract when she receives it. There will be instructions on how to cancel.
I don't think you are going to get anywhere with your recorded conversations because the initial transaction was not recorded, so this turns into a he said-she said thing.
When buying a car with an extended warranty package the buyer signs a purchase contract (plus a dozen other things.) What is said by word of mouth is completely worthless and carries zero legal weight, whether recorded or not - the contract that was signed rules. Signatures count. Period.
If the buyer signs without reading and understanding the contract, little sympathy is owed. If they cannot understand the contract, then it is the buyer's responsibility to bring along someone who can to act as an interpreter.
No, it's not OK to lie and rip people off, but you know some charlatans do it all the time. As a consumer your best line of protection is the contract document. If you sign one you don't understand, you've given away your own best protection.
I know little about the legalities of recording meetings so I have no comment about that. I do know that whatever was said was trumped by the signed contract, so whether or not the recording was legally made is moot.
And lastly no, I'm neither a Republican nor a shady dealer, and I am not in the car business. But I do have several decades of experience signing and managing contracts. The information offered about how to cancel the warranty was valuable - you should thank the poster.
Nobody said that it was illegal to record conversations. What was said is that your recorded conversations will not do you any good in fighting the dealer. If the original transaction were recorded and you could provide proof that the quoted price wasn't the sale price, then you might have something. But it was not and you do not.
The fact of the matter is that she signed the paperwork. Unless it was signed blank, then there could not have been anything illegal going on. On the contract there would have been a price. If it wasn't the same as what she was quoted, then she should have questioned it then. As I said earlier, just have her cancel the warranty if she is not happy with the price paid.
a transaction, like buying a car, is a 50/50 process. The salesperson should be fair and honest, but the buyer needs to be educated enough to complete the transaction. And, both will have to live with the consequences when it's a done deal.
It amazes me that people will sit down and sign documents that they do not understand, that involve large sums of money, and then gripe about getting screwed on a deal. WHY DID YOU SIGN THE ^%$# PAPERS?!!!!!!!!!!!! And, if the paperwork does not reflect what you were told, why would you sign that?
Call your bank and see what you owe on the loan. Reference it against used car values in your area, KDD, NADA. You'll be able to find your difference and if your really upside down. If the dealership is making so much money they are most likely rolling in the negative equity into your new loan. So regardless of if you purchase the new car, your still in the same boat as before. The dealer should not bill the sale as a cure all for your negative equity, what amount your upside down if any will not magically go away with his deal.
As far as the fishy story, I had a friend that had something similar sold to him, some extended warranty/life insurance policy that added 5k to his deal. He basically went into the dealership with a few people, Irate yelling and making a scene, on a busy day they reworked the deal. While I don't condone that type of behavior, in his case it got results.....maybe do the same, don't say a word and drop a fish in a newspaper on his desk when you head back down.
1. list the agreed new car sell price 2. then minus the agreed trade allowance (price) 3. then add the tax on that subtotal 4. then add payoff amunt of the trade (if any). 5. then minus any "after tax" rebates (if any)
I went to buy a Porsche Cayenne at Steven Creek Porsche in San Jose, CA. They gave a fair price for the CS, and for my trade. Sounds great, right? Wrong. I have financing online from Capital One using their "Blank Check" At the last minute the sale guy says "oh no, we don't accept that check, last time it took Capital One 90 days to pay us..." He then tried to steer me into using their financing which was about a full point higher. His logic was it would only be about $40 bucks a month more... Yeah right. Except over the life of the loan it would have added up to thousands more in interest. I said no thanks. I called Capital One. They said they pay as soon as the check hits the bank, 3 to 5 days at most, and that the sales guy was just trying to pull a fast one... What do you guys think? Sleazy trick or legit concern?
I seem to recall that the online banks had 2 kinds of checks (draft and something else?). Anyway, one was like writing a check, and the other was more like applying for a loan or something. But, the second type did take longer to clear, and may dealers wouldn't take them.
Possibly the salesman was confused, but also possible they did have a problem in the past for some reason. Of course Cap One is going to say we pay immediately. Doesn't mean it always happens.
usually when people come in with a bank draft (what you have) we take the check, send it in, make sure it clears, then let the customer pick up the car. if you have a cashiers check, or bank check, then it should be no problem. the salesperson has a legitimate concern (though i've never heard of a bank not paying for 90 days), but tell him to take the check, and you'll wait til it clears before you pick up the car...
Comments
people forget that their trade will be sold to someone else, who could care less if it has 140,000 "freeway" miles. 140,000 ANY miles is a lot - and won't be worth it to them as it is worth to the person who is trying to trade it in.
i always like to tell people that they should call KBB and have them write a check for the car at their "suggested" price, then come back and buy the car at the price we had worked out. gets them thinkin' pretty quickly... ;-)
-thene
I know, I know, its no indication of anything and it may or may not be accurate (although it usually jives with Terry's auction numbers come trade time). BUT, the reason I'm bringing this up (aside from the recent mention of it) is that it does dictate the market around here. Not because of its accuracy, but because of its consistent use. If all dealers within 50 miles of me use this book, then all offer the same trade-in of my vehicle and every other vehicle everyone is trying to trade in. This, in turn, dictates, in many case, what folks will ask for on the private side after they come to grips with reality that they won't get what they want for their precious cars from the local dealers. So, the question becomes, does the market drive the books or do the books drive the market? (referring to the example of my area, anyway)
I don't know, I thought it was interesting. Just a bit of monday morning philosophising.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Versus what.?? .. 140,000 miles driven down hill and towed back ...? ...l.o.l....
There is no real book that's the Bible .. and most important, you need to be able to *read and understand* what it's saying if your going to rely on any info source, whats hot and whats not and knowing the market and what that particular region reflects ....
I was in NC last week house hunting, and one of the super large Yota dealers is a good friend and we were going to play some golf, phones ringing, people talking, etc etc .. he asks me to put a number on a 02 Ford Excursion, so we can get out of there and because his UC guy is lost .... it's a 4x4, it's got 27k, it's a nice clean Limited, new sneaks, right color, no smoke, Disney package, all the stuff with all the service - and it's a 7.3 Dsl, so I figure $27,0 and the customer wanted $28, but they put their deal together ......
Anywaaaaay ... we leave and play some golf, come back and his UC guy is laying on the floor in the middle of an anxiety attack .l.o.l... .. he apologizes, but he can't believe I would even think close to that figure -- he think's it's a $18,000 driver because it makes noise and the lifters/valves are 2 minutes away from history ..l.o.l... ........ it's a diesel dummy, with no miles and they do $28/$29 all day long at any auction on the east coast .. that's what happens when you "literally" read the books (and your an import dealer) .....................
Terry.
But then again, on a busy Sat., you'd need an army of mechanics to check out every possible trade-in.
used cars are tough on both ends...we all just gotta do the best we can. glad to have you around to help answer the tough ones! ;-)
-thene
it's nice to know that you would be willing to have that happen, but i think you are in the minority (unfortunately!)
we had a guy once come in and look at a car, and want his vehicle appraised. he parked it along side the building (instead of a parking spot) figuring that we'd take it for a spin (just pull forward and go) and not check the vehicle by putting it in reverse (since we didnt have to back it out of a spot). lo and behold, he was trying to hide the fact that reverse DID NOT WORK! needless to say, we figured it out and priced the car appropriately...
there are all kinds out there!
-thene
It's hard to believe a dealer didn't catch timing chain noise on a Ford SUV especially if that's a common problem. But those things happen.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
No I'm not directly involved in vehicle sales, although my family has been for years, as was I for a short time. I currently service local dealerships direct for aftermarket add-ons in a business i hold ownership in. Another product the dealerships mark up significantly.
Again, nothing wrong with profit, gouging is was leaves the bad taste in customers mouths. And it's funny how some in the business are not aware of useful tools and indicators available to them.
The funny part is, one of the largest auctions in the country is right down the street from you .. dealers will use the black book on every purchase from that auction ..... the Galves book is indiginious to the NE area, and they use what they use to show a lower price, so it's kind of a "false market" ... there is plenty of NY/NJ dealers that come down here to buy 4x4's and cleaner used vehicles -- once on a blue moon, you'll see some dummy flicking thru the pages of one .. usually we have to take him to the Emergency Room for all of those paper cuts ..............................................
Terry.
When the leasing manager saw my car his first comment was, "Oh yeah, we're keepin' that one."
My response was, "Really? Why?"
"Mr. Shipo, do you have any idea how hard it is to find a nicely equipped 530i with both the Sport Package and a 5-Speed manual?"
"Well, yeah, that's why I placed a factory order in the first place."
Long story short, it was up on the BMW-USA CPO locater service two days later, listed at $36,999. Hey, from my perspective, if they can get that kind of money for MY car, then more power to them. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Overall, the used car side should make a profit, but it has to vary by unit.
But, if you don't like what they offer, take it someplace else, or sell it yourself.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I just happened to check, and my car has been sold. I'm wondering just how much they got for it. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Never hear of that one!
I laugh when a guy shows up here at the auctions with one of those little funny black books. Everyone in the place spots that book and wants to sell him their entire inventory...lol
is she not screwing anyone out of their money? "
Only if they BUY it
Now to make things clearer, the dealers should:
1. list the agreed new car sell price
2. then add the tax on that price
3. then minus the agreed trade allowance (price)
4. then add payoff amunt of the trade (if any).
5. then minus any "after tax" rebates (if any)
but Nooooooooo they need to get stupid with convoluted calculations that even a genius (like myself) has a difficult time figuring out. And figure it out I do , because if the numbers don't match up with mine, I beat up F&I guy until he gets it "right" - which is defined as matching MY numbers not his. My way or the high way - that's what my wife is always complaing about about me.
How does one in the industry buy and sell at KBB or NADA and stay in business??? Please explain.
Wow, Mike - you must be quite a man. I'm impressed! :rolleyes:
Sure you don't live in upstate NY?
I never said "KBB or NADA" ... you did.
The vast market doesn't use the galves book .. so if your at an auction in KC, FL, MI or Atlanta your going to be leaving in the same vehicle you came in with ............... get it.?
It's kinda like me reading a 1998 Catalog on Formula boats .. the prices were much lower, but I'll never be able to buy one at that price ....
Terry :shades:
The salesman is "still" in Costa Rica after that deal .........
Terry.
2. then add the tax on that price
3. then minus the agreed trade allowance (price)
4. then add payoff amunt of the trade (if any).
5. then minus any "after tax" rebates (if any)
In many (most?) states, isn't tax only charged on the difference between the price and the trade-in value? For these, swap steps 2. and 3. I am right?
Terry.
Overall, the used car side should make a profit, but it has to vary by unit.
Excellent point. The corollary to it is that the risk of dealing in used cars has to be greater compared to new cars. Undisclosed damage (or damage unknown to seller, as isell mentioned), incorrect value assigned to a trade-in, change in market conditions, a chance that a car will have to be sent to an auction after all - all these appear to make used car business riskier than new. Hence the (potentially) larger rewards.
Let's say a relative -- oh, for sake of argument, a younger sister -- bought a car.
Let's say the finance manager told her the extended warranty was X-dollars, but in presenting a plan as an official Honda preferred customer plan, he could offer it to her at X-minus-dollars.
Let's say that warranty was sold as part of an even more expensive package that this sister was never told she was buying, as she was explicity told it was an official Honda package. (Other fishy fees were included, but that's for another day.)
Now, let's say little sis realizes she's been ripped off after she gets home, and also realizes there's no price listed for her warranty on the warranty paperwork.
Let's say the dealership refuses to provide an itemized breakdown of said alleged package (which included the aforementioned fishy fees) so little sis knows how much refund she's entitled to when she cancels the warranty, but in a recorded conversation with a sales manager, he says the warranty in that alleged package is X-dollars, not the X-minus-dollars promised, but "don't be surprised if you only get X-minus-dollars back."
Let's say at another recorded meeting, the head manager and finance manager both say the warranty was, in fact, X-dollars, not the X-minus dollars promised, but they still refuse to provide an itemized breakdown so little sis knows how much refund she's entitled to and tell her, "Call Honda and find out how much it's for." (And let's say they kick her out at this point.)
Okay, and let's say little sis calls Honda and finds out Honda has the warranty on record as X-minus-dollars, thus leaving one to believe the dealership happily pocketed that difference, leading to the sales manager making that odd comment about not being surprised about getting only X-minus-dollars back when he said X-dollars were paid.
So, is that considered fraud or just typical wheeling and dealing in the world of selling cars? Honda customer service is on this as best as they can be because I don't think they appreciate the manager saying on tape, "Honda lets me do whatever I want, charge whatever I want because I act as a broker for them." But I thought I'd get some feedback to see if anyone else has dealt with this -- or helped a family member with it -- or if anyone has advice.
As far as your tape, it's worthless at best, except to help you sister "remember" what was being said. You are simply not allowed to secretly taping conversations, and it's not a good idea to announce on the web to have done so. I don't think it's actionable, don't get me wrong, but it's not a good idea.
As far as the mangaers statement that Honda lets him do whatever he want to; it's more like Honda does not have much to do with it. He sells their product, that's pretty much it. The only thing they can do if he misbehaves, is to affect his vehicle allocation. He does not work for them, he works for his dealership.
He's also a shyster, but what does that get you? Your sister was being stupid going in there signing stuff without knowing what was going on. That doesn't make it alright to take advantage of her in what sounds like pretty rotten deal.
This "X-minus-dollars" business is nothing other than the deaelrship making a profit on the warranty. Just liike Safeway making a profit on the milk they sell. Now, if sis can legally cancel the warranty, she is entitled to all of it back, the warranty an the profit. So I don't understand what's going on here, but notice the "If" at the beginning. If the dealership has "packaged" the warranty, they may have, in fact, sold her the warranty at cost, plus the "paint and fabric protection", a refund to which she is not entitled.
Sis should be happy she actually got a Honda warranty as promised, not some lousy aftermarket piece of paper which could be worth nothing. She's better off keeping the warranty than selling it back to Honda at dealer cost.
FWIW, it would have been a cinch to avoid this situation. Now it'll take some real finesse to get her money back. Chalk it up to experience, never go spend that kind of money when she doesn't know what she's doing, never buy from these clowns again, and forget about it.
It would help if we knew what the $$ amounts are we're talking about. Is it really that big a deal? A Honda at sticker is a better deal any day than a Cavalier with all available discounts, at least to me.
-Mathias
I have been talking with a internet sales manager for a dealership. He gives me this very low quote of 12K for my car, then the very next sentence he say " We hope to make A Lot on your trade."
Why can't we just deal with fair market value? I am all for the dealership making money, and the salesman on top too. But to just put it in your face like that, little disrespectful I thought. He should have just said " if you do this deal, then your a sucker".
After learning from these forums, I know that I have to put off my purchase until it I am right side up in my current car. Of course when I told this to the dealer, he said that I would never be ahead with my current car, and if I don't buy now, then tomorrow my car will be worth-less, and everyday that I delay I am just losing money.
Errr, does that mean that if you pay your car off that you will then have to pay someone else to take it off your hands?
Best Regards,
Shipo
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and thats the same for the used cars we put on our lot. sure we price them for $3000 or so over what we gave you...but we only make that if someone BUYS it at that price...and we all know that people come in and haggle the price. (that and we lower prices on used cars if they've been sitting for a while"
have we made $3000 or more on a car? sure! do we do it often? not so much.
btw, in our state, you would subtract trade value first, then calculate taxes ;-) - but if you REALLY want to toss that extra money at me.... (wink wink)
-thene :-)
I don't think you are going to get anywhere with your recorded conversations because the initial transaction was not recorded, so this turns into a he said-she said thing.
If the buyer signs without reading and understanding the contract, little sympathy is owed. If they cannot understand the contract, then it is the buyer's responsibility to bring along someone who can to act as an interpreter.
I know little about the legalities of recording meetings so I have no comment about that. I do know that whatever was said was trumped by the signed contract, so whether or not the recording was legally made is moot.
And lastly no, I'm neither a Republican nor a shady dealer, and I am not in the car business. But I do have several decades of experience signing and managing contracts. The information offered about how to cancel the warranty was valuable - you should thank the poster.
The fact of the matter is that she signed the paperwork. Unless it was signed blank, then there could not have been anything illegal going on. On the contract there would have been a price. If it wasn't the same as what she was quoted, then she should have questioned it then. As I said earlier, just have her cancel the warranty if she is not happy with the price paid.
It amazes me that people will sit down and sign documents that they do not understand, that involve large sums of money, and then gripe about getting screwed on a deal. WHY DID YOU SIGN THE ^%$# PAPERS?!!!!!!!!!!!! And, if the paperwork does not reflect what you were told, why would you sign that?
As far as the fishy story, I had a friend that had something similar sold to him, some extended warranty/life insurance policy that added 5k to his deal. He basically went into the dealership with a few people, Irate yelling and making a scene, on a busy day they reworked the deal. While I don't condone that type of behavior, in his case it got results.....maybe do the same, don't say a word and drop a fish in a newspaper on his desk when you head back down.
Keep rolling your eyes, just make sure when you buy a car that you FOCUS them and your brain on the numbers.
It doesn't need to be rocket science, but what some dealers do with 3 or 4 simple numbers boggles the mind.
And yes you should be impressed :P
And my wife still loves the car - she's driving the hell out of it added 5,000 miles so far :surprise:
For most states:
1. list the agreed new car sell price
2. then minus the agreed trade allowance (price)
3. then add the tax on that subtotal
4. then add payoff amunt of the trade (if any).
5. then minus any "after tax" rebates (if any)
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So you and I have a conversion on the phone, I notify myself I'm taping you, it's legal???
Or...........we get a party line going, call Kyfdx up, you notify me, I notify you, who's on first....and it's OK??? :P
doesn't anyone remember linda tripp and monica bjinski ???
They gave a fair price for the CS, and for my trade. Sounds great, right? Wrong. I have financing online from Capital One using their "Blank Check" At the last minute the sale guy says "oh no, we don't accept that check, last time it took Capital One 90 days to pay us..." He then tried to steer me into using their financing which was about a full point higher. His logic was it would only be about $40 bucks a month more... Yeah right. Except over the life of the loan it would have added up to thousands more in interest. I said no thanks. I called Capital One. They said they pay as soon as the check hits the bank, 3 to 5 days at most, and that the sales guy was just trying to pull a fast one... What do you guys think? Sleazy trick or legit concern?
Possibly the salesman was confused, but also possible they did have a problem in the past for some reason. Of course Cap One is going to say we pay immediately. Doesn't mean it always happens.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
let us know how it goes!
-thene