Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

stickguy · August 2001

Your situation is one reason to decouple the trade-in from the new car price. Sometimes the price on the new car is padded, so the trade in can be shown higher.

In this case, the Volvo dealer probably didn't want to have it on his lot, and figured if they weren't selling a new car, they wanted to make a profit on the trade, which means getting it for less than wholesale (if they were going to ship it right on out).

Think of it as buying wholesale and selling retail, but in this case their retail was auction price, and they weren't buying your car unless they could make a profit.

Or it might have been personal for shopping the compitition.

godeacs · August 2001

I hear where you're coming from but do believe it's more personal than business! They have told me they wanted the car on their used lot. Believe me, they have some older Volvos and other makes with more mileage now. My car would be an improvement! Had I traded it in with them on an S60 they were prepared to come down halfway between invoice and MSRP. This dealer has consistently "lowballed" every other dealer when I asked for a trade in figure. The Saab guy (who used to work at Volvo!) even admitted as much. I didn't expect to get the same value, just something in the same ball park. The root of the whole problem is that Volvo's recent reliability (S40, S80, etc) has been less than stellar and as I stated above, I refuse to spend $30K on an S60 in it's 1st year of production. Another thing, most other Euro makes offer free maintenance - not Volvo! Of course, with the above reliability problems, they'd go broke....lol...

oac3 · August 2001

you are absolutely right... my bad... (i can't be that old to have amnesia ? :-) it was the 4-cyl LE with alloy wheels, moonroof, and cloth seat (no leather, no V6), standard abs.. no other frills. And the $20K price, I think, is fair, as you attest.

If anything, the most important difference between the Camry deal and the Nissan deal was the style. I was ready to buy. And once the sales person realised what I had just went thro' at the Toyota place, he wanted to make sure he treated me different. He did, and he got my business. It was that simple.

no worries, though ! the Maxima is still going strong and I am not complaining on what I got instead. 5-years later, I am back to owning a Toyota, and love both the Nissan and the new Toy (when I can pry the key loose from the spouse)...

'nuff said...

landru2 · August 2001

Go sell it to CarMax for the $12,500 and then go buy the Audi. What does loyalty have to do with it? It sounds like the Volvo store showed their loyalty by offering you good money for your trade and for whatever reason you chose to buy elsewhere. And now you expect them to help their competition make a deal with you?

armtdm · September 2001

Obviously things changed and the used car manager did not want your car. Best way to sell a car is privately, slight hassle but best price. I have used Car Max also, their prices are pretty good and can also be used as a bargaining point. Recently purchased a new car and Car MAx gave me a quote of 12,000. It was end of month, dealer needed a sale real bad and my having to sell my car privately or via Car Max would have pushed the sale into next month so he gave me what Car Max offered and made the sale easier and quicker. Remember though, when trading it is all relative. they will give you less on a trade if you are getting the new car at invoice but really make the trade look great if you give them a huge profit on the new car say $1000 over invoice. Get your best price on the new one and then subtract what you think your car is worth, that is the net price you are looking for. For the most part though, you are opnly going to get the wholesale price, they make huge profits on used cars.

godeacs · September 2001

lancefixer - interesting, guess I never should have traded in my 850 for the S90. 850 was a nice car.

landru2 - don't worry, I plan on it. You're right though, loyalty counts for nothing! I don't think they offered "good money" on a trade -they were gonna nickel and dime me for a new S60. I don't expect them to help the competition, I just expected a tad more for a 19 yr Volvo customer on a car THEY said would go on their lot. Now you tell me how much mark up they would get...I'd say about around $5K....not a bad profit margin, eh?

armtdm - you make some good pts. Was pleasantly surprised with CarMax and how fast they are. Yeah, I know how the "trade in" game is played - impossible to see which direction the dealer is coming from! Selling privately yields more, if and when you can sell. Don't need that hassle.

mvargo1 · September 2001

A Used car manager will always offer less when he gets a call from someone else. Especially if he just looked at the car. It is not really fair or right, but hey it happens.

salesperson · September 2001

It sounds like you were getting about the same acv for your car and the dealerships were just working the numbers differently. I dont know for your particular situation, but I do have some experience with this. Just because one dealership shows a trade allowance that is even 2k less than another, they could be only 500 apart on ACV and the rest is just allowance.

bigbenmo · September 2001

Somewhere I have seen on some of these message boards, an cost that a new car dealer has pay if he does not sell a particular vehicle within a certain length of time. Does anyone know what I am talking about? My daughter is shopping for the first time for a new van(growing family)and needs lots of advice and help. I've directed her to this web site but she doesn't have a lot of time to surf.
Anyone have any extra good advice or links she *must* see first?

cherokeebat · September 2001

I was in the process of buying a end of the year 2001 Kia Optima v6 SE,with leather interior,etc.
The dealer is charging $21,500. We then noticed the car had 3,047 miles on it. The dealer said one of his managers used the car and now we can get the car for $19,800. Is this a standard practice...is the car used?... how many miles can they drive and still be a demo?...is there a standard price for demo's?.....Please help

i30g20 · September 2001

Demo "cars" can be great deals and they are titled as new (in Va anyway). BTW: Got 13k off msrp on a $35k SUV. Ended up paying (after private sell of my older same model SUV) less for my 2001 Trooper Limited than I did for 1992 Trooper S (which was also a demo).

im_brentwood · September 2001

I'd say that a demo can be a good buy.. in CERTAIN Cases (I.E. The deal is at least, say, $500-700 or so better than you can do on your own otherwise)

You said the dealer is asking $21,500, is that MSRP (Window sticker) for the car without any add-ons?

If so, Somehow I think that you ought to be able to buy a non-demo Optima for $1,700 off of list...

Bill

CarMan@Edmunds · September 2001

Hi Bigbenmo. Dealers constantly have to pay floorplan interest on vehicles that they have on their lots. As time goes on, the amount of money that they have paid to keep a particular unit in stock adds up. As a result, dealerships are usually more willing to sell vehicles that they physically have on their lots (especially ones that have been around for some time) than they are to order or swap for one for a customer. This is probably what the post that you read was referring to.

As far as what your daughter should read before she goes shopping for her new van, I think that she should read the following article first: 10 STEPS TO BUYING A NEW CAR: What Everyone Should Know. Once she has gotten an idea of how to go about shopping for a new vehicle, then she should probably research the pricing for the van that she wants. She can do so by looking up its MSRP, dealer invoice price, and Edmunds.com True Market Value price on the following page: New Vehicle Prices & Information. She also might want to get some feedback from other owners of this particular vehicle over on the Vans Message Board. Finally, she should check to see what sort of incentives are available on this vehicle by visiting the Edmunds.com Incentives Page. Wish your daughter luck from us here at Edmunds.com and if she has any questions during the buying process please feel free to come back and ask us.

Car_Man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

bianca2 · September 2001

Can any of the sales people on here explain how cash back is supposed to work? Right now Mazda has $1000 cash back on the Protege. I'm (well actually, a friend of mine is) interested in an ES 2.0 The salesguy says it's better for figuring tax if the $1,000 is signed over to him, with him having subtracted it from the price of the car. Is that true? In other words, if the price of the car would ordinarily be $15,000, he charges me $14,000, the $1,000 rebate goes over to him and customer pays state sales tax on the $14k amount, not the 15. Is that right? Am I missing something here?

landru2 · September 2001

If it is a customer cash rebate then you will pay tax on it. It is the equivalent of cash. In fact you can specify whether you want to receive a cheque from the manufacturer or apply it directly to the deal. In your example, the tax would be added to the $15000 selling price and then the $1000 rebate would be deducted.

If they are using a dealer cash incentive then they can deduct it from the selling price before the tax is added.

bianca2 · September 2001

Thank you. From your description, it must be dealer cash incentive.

landru2 · September 2001

Yes, but if it is a dealer incentive then there is nothing to "sign over" to the dealer. They just get it from the manufacturer and that's that.

If your deal specifies "rebate to dealer" then it is definitely a customer rebate and you will be asked to sign a form saying that you want the rebate applied to the deal rather than receiving a cheque. I don't see how you will avoid paying the tax on it.

bretfraz · September 2001

Are you sure about this?

I went to a few of my reference sites and found conflicting info.

MazdaUSA.com says they have a 0.0% finacing deal on the Protege LX 2.0 only.

Autosite.com mentions a $500-1500 rebate or the 0.0% up to 48 mos. (4.9% up to 60 mos) on the 2001 Protege but not the MP3 model.

Intellichoice.com doesn't mention Mazda rebates at all.

Do they have something in writing from Mazda?

Is your friend sure they don't want the free financing? Bankrate is stating 48-60 month loans are at about 7.7%. It's hard to pass up no interest loans.

Just some observations. Hope it all works out fine.

audia8q · September 2001

incentives on the protege are somewhat complicated...if the customer is paying cash and the car does not have the free wheels and moonroof option the rebate is $1000. If the customer takes the 0.0% financing then no rebate is offered. If the car does have the free wheels and roof and the customer decides to pay cash( which is just plain stupid) they get $500 rebate.
This applies to all 2001 protege's.
The bottom line is take the 0.0% financing and the whole problem is solved. it is by far the best way to go.

Rich

bianca2 · September 2001

Hmm - the car did not have the moonroof and special wheels, so the $1000 rebate applied. My friend paid cash and got the $1000 rebate. He doesn't like to be in debt, has ample cash on hand, and it looked like $1000 less now would be about the same net effect as low financing. The dealer was only talking about 3.9 financing anyway, not the 0.0 deal. In this case, financing would have a true cost of $1,000 if someone forgoes the rebate.

I think he got a decent deal. The dealer finally agreed to Edmund's TMV minus the $1,000. I suspect we could have argued a little more and maybe got a little more off, but all said and done, just one day was devoted to carshopping. The dealer should have been happy to sell that particular car, it had a manufacture date of March and an inspection sticker of June, so it had been sitting on the lot for a while. Guess people usually don't want what's almost a stripped version of the 2.0. It did have keyless entry but not many other options. Nice color - Sand Mica.

cfg1 · September 2001

In Texas, you can sign a customer rebate over to the dealer and avoid paying sales tax on it. Other states are different.

pjd58 · September 2001

and went with the 0% for 48 and also received the free alloys and moonrooof. I only paid $400 over invoice, better than TMV. Dealer lost holdback due to tranfer with another out of state dealer( hard to find Millennium Red).

Rich is on the mark, why would anyone pay cash for the Protege when Mazda gives you an interest free loan for 4 years. I'm saving almost 3 grand in interest.

BTW, the Protege, IMO, is the best compact car around. Corolla, Civic, Sentra etc. doesn't even come close.

gregarious · September 2001

Hi. First time posting. I am being offered $24,453 w/$2000 down (in my mind that's really $26,453 total). The Boy Scouts used the vehicle for some GM nationwide event, so the vehicle has 1350 miles on it. (there was some boy scout stuff still hidden in the trunk).

This van is the 2001 year Chevey Venture, Extended, 1SD package with leather seating. It is not the color I hoped for (i had a few in mind and this is one of two I did not want). Edmunds lists the TMV for this vehicle as $27,250. What are your thoughts? Can I get a better price? Especially with it already having 1350 miles on it!

Also, Edmunds lists 0.9% financing for this vehicle for 60 months for my area. I double checked this. At the GM website, they list 2.9% and that is what the dealer lists.

I do police work and have to work through the weekend here in DC even though the World Bank Conference has been cancelled. So can you help asap as the September deal is running out, as I understand it.

zueslewis · September 2001

research invoice cost, add in a fair profit for the dealer, take out any rebate (it's substantial ) then negotiate the 1350 miles at .50 or 1.00 per mile and see where it goes. The GM financing deal is one of the few things that should be taken advantage of during our country's crisis. Go for it.

zueslewis · September 2001

the miles may have already been pulled out of the price or the vehicle "written" down for the "Boy Scout Volunteer" status as a demo. I just threw that in for the sake of negotiation.

Car buying can be fun if both sides are educated and don't come to the table with weapons.

armtdm · September 2001

Do dealers ever come to the table under a white flag? They usually have a knife stuffed in some body crevice!

zueslewis · September 2001

the meaning I was working towards is when the consumer is educated and the sales staff is educated - instead of being slam-dunk neanderthals - I know, I used to be one.

When one side or both sides are armed in preparation for conflict, conflict will surely arise and that's bad.

When the consumer is firm, but not screaming and the salesman listens and responds, that's good.

zueslewis · September 2001

once one, always one applies. I still think like I'm in sales. I've only been out of the car business since March.

I know that when a consumer comes in loaded for bear, his current copy of Consumer Reports, the invoice versus msrp printout from his credit union and the whole list of TSBs for the car he's looking at, I usually thought two things: the guy isn't buying today, not from me, not from here, because Joe at DownTheRoad Motors will beat my price by $20; and, it's time to have fun by putting the guy out on a "ball".

suvshopper4 · September 2001

"putting the guy out on a 'ball'"? Meaning?

CarMan@Edmunds · September 2001

Greg, as I am sure you are well aware by now General Motors enhanced its special financing rates on all of its vehicles last week. Right now you should be able to finance a 2001 Venture through GMAC at 0.0% for up to 36 months and at 0.9% for 37 to 60 months through October 1st. After that date the program remains the same, except for the 60 month term which changes from 0.9% to 2.9%. I personally think that you should be able to purchase this van for right around its dealer invoice price and still be able to take advantage of the special interest rates, given the fact that it already has some miles on it. If not, then it may not be worth getting this demo and I would shop for a model with fewer miles on it if I was in your situation.

Car_Man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

fangio2 · September 2001

car from the old"neanderthal"Zues,the new politically correct one I dunno.I think spending ones money and taking someones money should be a fun experience for both parties.
When some geek comes into my furniture store with a consumer report in one hand and know it all wife in the other it makes my day.I know that there will be no free delivery,no free accessories and no free service calls.
All my customers get the best price I can give them.Sometimes another store can beat me,but not often.The person that comes in with the attitude I'm Jesse James,because I'm selling something for more then I paid for it,will get the same respect back from me and I will get his money.
These people would buy their cars a Walmart if they could and then complain about the service.What these kind of people miss in life is not the bargains,but the joy of working to find a place where everyone feels good about the deal.The 70 year old grandmother buying a crib for her great grandson gets a different deal then a know it all "negoiator".When these people ask if the price is firm I say "no,it can go up".
Anyway I may be selling the store soon.If so I want to sell cars-so look out I'll be waiting for you.

zueslewis · September 2001

educated and argumentive - every decent salesperson has dealt with someone who is an eternal shopper. They won't buy today, or in 6 months, but it makes them feel good inside to do loads of research and go prove to some new guy salesman that he knows more than they do.

If a consumer is not committed to buying, at any price, you don't have a sale, right? He's not buying from you, you are just one of 40 people he'll talk to, so you know you won't get the deal. The least I could do is have some fun. The low ball, like frankrichards stated, is a price no one can match, not even me. You'll spin your wheels all over town trying, though.

fangio2 - I'm soft on the grandmother concept, too. Especially if she brings chocolate chip cookies. She will always pay at least 10% less than the consumer reports guy.

fangio2 · September 2001

zueslewis · September 2001

I've sold to the occasional butthead, and it had always shot the dealership in the foot. The person who is out of hand in the showroom becomes a raving lunatic in the service department when he doesn't get everything for free, or get his brakes replaced free at 30,000 miles. My managers, and when I was a manager, would chose to pass on the tight deal for the jerk customer because they (and I) knew it would not be a profitable venture, especially in the long run.

You can imagine how that guy would bad-mouth the whole dealership while in the service waiting area - he's telling 6 other people what a bad place it is while he's getting his 5th free oil change because he thinks we got dirt on his carpet the last time he was in.

fangio2 · September 2001

the chiselers.Before I got my own store,I worked in management for larger companies(my store is very small -2 employees);where it was difficult to make sure customers were treated fairly.I always encouraged my work force,at all levels,to try and solve problems at the source.If it was something that they could not resolve pronto ,to pass it up to the next level.When a problem was passed up,we would sit down and see why it was necessary to pass it up the line.The goal was always to try and solve every problem at the first level.At first some employees would view it as "buck passing".After a few meetings about problems that weren't resolved,they would see the light.Very soon the staff felt more competent and the customers felt much more at ease.This system would speed up the process of resolution for the legitimate complaint(yes there is such a thing)and quickly isolate the unreasonable one.It never works perfect,but it gives all the customers a sense of being listened to.Arguing with an unreasonable customer is similar to wrestling a pig-after a while you realize the pig is enjoying it.After this system is in place for a time ,you are able to give the patient and fair minded customer the free oil change.

armtdm · September 2001

Well, I am the jerk, I go in and make my offer and they either take it or leave it, If they leave I could care less, I usually find one that will. Service, years ago it meant something, today, ha. I haven't needed a warranty claim in 10 years with multiple cars and I do my own oil and tranny changes, Other stuff goes to independent so new cars are a commodity item to me.

Like buying a computer.

Don't over rate what dealers and car salespersons do. Besidesm that guy is usually gon in 3 months anyway

fangio2 · September 2001

But unfortunately so true.We are becoming just consumers and all we own disposible commodities.Automatons shopping at Walmart may be the future.

suvshopper4 · September 2001

Going into a dealership with a firm price in mind, and stating it (making an offer), does not make someone a jerk. Seems like that customer would be preferable to someone who has no idea what to pay, then hems and haws and leaves with no firm idea of what they want to do, probably after taking up a lot of the salesperson's time.

Cars are commodities; they are usually necessary items, like appliances. Some of us just happen to bond with them (car nuts). A year ago, I tried adjusting my thinking, deciding to buy a used Accord, thinking of it as an appliance, appreciating it for what it is and how much that way of thinking would save me money. Didn't work. Six months later, I bought new something that turned me on. Old dog, new tricks and all that. But enjoyment counts.

zueslewis · October 2001

by no means does someone who has done research qualify to be a jerk - the jerk customer is in a league all by themselves.

fangio2 - you are so right. When I was in management, if a problem got to me, I usually had to give something away because it was too late to resolve the issue. My CEO at the Chevy dealer I worked at always said, "If the problem gets to my level, I have to give something away. I don't like giving things away. Handle it."

jbkenn · October 2001

Well, I have read quite a bit about the "low-ball" method, and the stringing out the dealer. What comes to my mind is how off the mark you guys are. I agree with Hmmm comment-you are the one gone in 6 months. I do come in armed with CR, Invoice from Edmunds and soemtimes pricing from Carsdirect. But, unlike your lowballer, I know what the price is and I make an offer. If you don't have the foresight to deal with me....well, its your loss on the kick commission. However, if you deal with me, I will tell you how much you paid, and give you a reasonable offer about 3-500 above depending on model. So, next time you see someone come in with all there guns loaded, it might behove you to take them serious. I kne gfor a fact a fw of you have actually lost out on my money just for not talking to me, andf well let's face it, I have have had conversation with salesman about specific vehicles I want, and based on my education, it is ironic that I am actually telling them about the vehicle performace features. You might want to just think for a mimute----who's having fun with whom!

raybear · October 2001

John, try the spell check some time!

hiwaysanity · October 2001

The spelcker sukcs!

landru2 · October 2001

Just what every salesman dreams of - a customer that wants to to tell him what the dealer paid. It really is surprising that some salesmen passed on your business. I highly doubt that the $75 you put in any salesman's pocket will have much effect on their lifestyle. Or is the experience of dealing with you worth so much more?

fangio2 · October 2001

product.If I can convince the customer he knows more then me I've got a sale.These people have been told how dumb they are by their bosses,wives and generally everyone who knows them.When they meet me it's like being reborn for them-finally someone dumber then them.I just sit back in awe and let them sell themselves.

zueslewis · October 2001

I never would pass on a customer who was committed to buy TODAY. Make me an offer, call my bluff and you'll end up driving home in a new ride.

My problem is with the people who are "infinite researchers" and do all the reading, comparing, etc only to go to a lot, act like a horse's butt and tell the salesman how stupid he is. And then doesn't want to commit to a purchase at any price!

People like that ARE NOT a pleasure or a privilege to sell to no matter how highly they think of themselves. I'll pass on the $75 mini commission and never have to hear them whining in the service department!

armtdm · October 2001

Sorry guys, I have to agree with the poster above that stated salemen do not know the product line. This is especially true of maintenance requirements, what weight of oil is recommended, octane requirements (once had a salesman say 87 octane is okay, I pulled our the manual and showed him in print what Nissan said, 92 min ) does it have a timing belt or chain,. Sure, they know option packages but the maintenance requirements, are foreign to them and synthetic oil, they all say it will ruin your engine. I don't buy the argument that there are too many engine variations etc. Sorry, this is your product know it or find another job! If you do not want to take the time to learn your product I don't have the time to give you my business!

hiwaysanity · October 2001

where to find answers quickly and accurately to questions that are not common. I don't mind if a salesman doesn't know the oil weight recommended, but he should be able to come up with it in about 30 seconds.

A very knowledgeable salesperson is always impressive, but I'd rather the answers be correct than immediate.

zueslewis · October 2001

let's go find out for you. I sold eleven vehicle makes and who-knows-how-many models, so even though I a specifcation nut, there where questions I couldn't answer.

If you asked me what the diameter was, of the bolt that held the connecting rod onto the crankshaft of a 1994 Ford 1.6 engine in the Escort, I'd have to look it up with you! I was asked that question, by the way!

When selling over 60 different models (at one time) with endless options and packages - and I didn't know the answer to a trivial, yet "important to you" question and you had a problem with that - I would ask you to lighten up.

Now, on the other hand, I take serious issue with the salesperson, fleet manager, finanace manager, etc that guesses without any knowledge or doesn't respect the client enough to get the correct answer. Like the salesman that told the customer the plug-in for the engine block heater was an electrical outlet for running things like generators, stereos, etc - get a clue!

fangio2 · October 2001

customer make an effort to get the facts.In fact the questions a customer asks can be very helpful in finding out if he is ready to buy.If the questions are centered around finance and price,thats real good.

landru2 · October 2001

I can't stand the customers that come in wanting to "test" the salesperson's knowledge. Invariably they know the answers already but feel they have to judge whether the salesperson is worthy of their business. And then when the price discussions start it becomes clear that all they really care about is the price anyway.

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles

Dealer's Tricks - bait &amp; switch, etc.

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles

Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.