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Regarding 750's as potential lemons, I own a 93 750. I've had it for 6 years and 60,000 miles. It is a very complex machine and the newer models did not get simpler.
Some of the parts are unbelievably expensive (the $1200 xenon headlight is my favorite so far--I passed on it). Other parts (eg., brake rotors) are cheaper than for my chevy pickup.
As a do-it-yourself kind of guy, I've managed to put maybe $6000 into maintenance and repairs, including oil changes and tires. There have been two "major" mechanical issues that I took care of myself. That's not too bad overall and I would happily buy a newer 750 if the old one died (which isn't looking likely anytime soon).
However, I can't recommend this sort of car if you are a mechanical neophyte and utterly dependent on a dealer's service department, because they will turn the WV unit up to full as soon as they see you come in.
WV stands for "wallet vacuum."
I took my 750 to the dealer one time and left after getting bad advice which clearly was designed to maximize the bill, not fix the problem.
This can happen with any car if you get the wrong dealer.
If you're a car nut with a working knowledge of 12 volt electric systems and who doesn't faint at the sight of an open valve cover, then by all means buy one. Otherwise, ask yourself if, in addition to the car, you can afford a $5000 repair bill when something breaks (cause it might happen).
1) Have any of you bought any of these buy-back 2002 745?
2) Have you had any issues since?
3) is $55K a good deal for this car with such options?
4) What should I be watching out for?
5) Should I purchase extended warranty?
Thank you so much for your advice in advance.
Tri
If it does than it does not have comfort seats. I've got a vehicle history on the car from BMWNA.
I am still not so clear about all this so I have a few more questions if you don’t mind.
1) If I after I have bought the car and still have problems such as those above, would I have the right to bring it in to exchange it for another one? Would BMW buy this back from me?
2) Originally, the sale man told me this is going to be sold for $59,500 but when I told him my wife and I were only willing to spend $55,000 and after checking with his manager he said yes they were willing to sell the car for $55,000. Does this sound like a good deal to you?
3) Should I buy the extended warranty for this?
4) What are the things I should look out for when I come to inspect the vehicle?
Your advice on this would be greatly appreciated.
Additionally, anything I should look for and try to avoid when evaluating a 7?
thanks,
-Jay
Thanks again,
-Jay
An example: I own a 1993 750 (E-32). During the first 3 years of production the E32 used a circuit board for the instrument panel that was placed near the hvac outlets and was found to develop cracks due to repeated thermal cycles. Starting in 1991 (4th year) the circuit board was replaced with a better unit.
I would have been very surprised if a BMW salesperson in 1989 would have been aware of this issue. Maybe only one or two E-32's came in with the problem, and why would anyone in the service department tell him about this? The number of failures would be too small for him to see in his "little world" (as you put it). Clearly, however, BMW saw the problem in Munich as it had access to world-wide data.
So I'm glad you are not seeing lots of 2003 E-65's coming back immediatly after purchase. But how relevant is such a statistical sample to someone who might want to own a car for more than two years?
Anyone who buys a car in the first 3-year of production is a "beta tester." I want to add that I'm not singling out BMW here. Everybody does it because they HAVE to. No matter how thoroughly a company tests a new car, its sample size will be limited. There is no substitute for the 25 million miles of use 30,000+ customers will subject those cars to in the first three years.
To get my ducks in line I even joined BMWCAA to get the member's discount/deal when I eventually pulled the trigger. Every month the membership mag arrives with long tech columns full of insightful comments about the F14- like maintenance schedule you have to adhere to on these things. Including changing the brake fluid every year. And yet they still break down. Randomly. Expensively. Frequently.
Then I read the Edmonds 7 Series Board. I don't know, guys. Currently, BMW is offering in the Wall St. Journal a 2003 7 Series lease deal of around $790 per month (on a 70K car!) Even if in the fall/winter of 2004, I could get a CPO 2002 745 for 40K, it seems like it will be one unending headache. (The 40K figure wasn't random; it seems that two year old 7 series do go for about that; Maybe the 2002 E65 will depreciate even FASTER? I see them now at 55K, retail.)
Sure the Chevy Tahoe/Ford Expedition/Toyota Seqoias of the world ain't perfect, lack panache,and the dealership experience is something that reminds me of the alley across from the main gate at Ton Son Nhut Air Base, but they will get you to work every day and skiing every winter weekend. (And I've never known anyone who owned one of these things who maintained it like a C130 with yearly fluid changes.)
I write this though I fit F1Buick's definition of a knowledgeable 7 series buyer: someone who doesn't panic when he sees a valve cover lying on a fender pad. (Heck, I've even made nifty portable tool boxes out of Detroit Diesel Valve covers and lucite). I probably also fit BMWUSAs demographic profile of a 7 Series buyer.
But, the more I think about it, life is short and you make choices. I've got things to do, a company to run, and maybe I just don't need this hassle in my life, however glorious it would be when everything was clicking. Am I giving up too easily?
But speaking of depreciation IMHO I think your calculations may be off. Didn't the MY2002 745 actually came out in maybe Jan or Feb 2002? So, it isn't the case that it dropped 15-18K in two years. More like 18 months. And that to me is horrible.
One last thought on depreciation: for a business guy like me, to express a car's depreciation in monthly terms as high as $750 per month is a real turn off when I think what could be done with that cash. I've always thought that one reason (in addition to status insecurity and general gullibility) why you see so many MDs, lawyers, and CPAs in big buck sedans is that they simply don't have the opportunity to invest it in a growing business. In other words, they have no opportunity costs. Its either expense it on a German sedan or the wife gets it.
Can you get Manheim reporets on line? With a password? Are they the most reliable?
Moral of the story, if you drive a lot, by Japanese or, god forbid, American. If you love machines and a great driving experience and are willang and able to support expensive maintenance and repair as well as steeper depreciation, by all means, go German.
I'm not going to insult you with a story from a sample of one (me) who has had good luck with Chrysler 318 V8s. But just check out the full size SUV boards. Sure, lots of complaints about cold start knock, noisy body cladding, etc. but nothing like the insane stuff I read on the German boards. (I saw over the weekend on the E Series board that a guy spent 5K in one service appointment just to fix his 2001 E Series AC system!) And the funny thing is that they seem to eat it up although they are just being taken to the cleaners in a way that they would never allow in any other area of their life. Thats the power of branding, a marketing guy would say. "I don't care if you beat me up and rob me blind, as long as I can have one of your (fill in the blank) "exclusive" luxury goods, I'll feel secure, fullfilled and happy."
Thanks for your understanding.
The premium miles (under warranty) cost premium dollar. My analogy that at 750per mo. or even 1000per month is a good value is based on the idea that if a client chooses a typical finance term, 60 mo, at a good interest rate, say 4%, on a 78 g car that comes to over 1400 per month. Now that doesn't really fit a budget that I would set for a car but for the ones that do elect to spend that much they get to drive some of the finest vehicles in the world EVERYDAY.......that would be sweet.
So let's face it. When we buy these things we are buying toys, not making investments.
My experience with 7-series depreciation is similiar to Tasillo's. I bought a 1993 750 in 1997. Only 27k and about 1 month left on the warranty. Priced at $36,000 (original retail $88,500--really).
Now, at 10+ years old and 90,000 miles, I'd be happy to get $8,000 for it (and at that price I'll take my 750 any day, thank you).
Why so "cheap," relatively speaking? Because (1) there is little market for a $50,000 used car, and (2) people are scared to death of the maintenance costs, especially with a V12.
And, to be frank, BMW contributes to this situation with its "black box" approach to auto repairs. An example: the headlight relays are contained in a box called the "LKM." It is located in the fuse box and easily replaced. If your LKM acts up and you bring it into the dealer, the service tech will dutifully hook it up to the diagnostic computer, or will consult a diagnostic flow chart. When he gets to the end of the chart, the instruction will be "Replace LKM."
Thanks, that will be $400 for on "black box" (LKM) plus $150 for the labor. To fix a headlight. Add to that the hassle of scheduling a dealer appointment, etc. No wonder people are scared of these cars!
What will the artful do-it-yourself'er do? He'll pull the LKM, pry it open, spray the sticky relays with contact cleaner, put it back in and drive another 100,000 miles. Time spent: less than 30 minutes. Cost: about a nickle.
Since most (all?) BMW's use LKM's, you'd think those in charge of fixing the cars would know this. But they don't because BMW discourages this sort of repair. There are several reasons.
First, there is no money in it. If an LKM is replaced, BMW earns a fat markup on the part, as does the dealer. Also the dealer gets to charge "book" time of one hour labor for an operation which took less than 15 minutes. More profit. So there's no money in imaginative repairs intended to save the client money. The money is in "black box" repairs with big parts markups and overblown labor charges.
The above is typical in the whole industry and not just BMW. The high-end German manufacturers, however, have more of this because their cars are so cutting-edge complex. They manufacturers really don't want service techs opening up the "black boxes," cause who knows what some yahoo in Oshkosh might do? And there is big money in fixing these expensive technological toys when they break.
Getting back to the E 65, it is telling that last year BMW began forbidding aftermarket publication of repair data about their cars (by Chiltons, Haynes, Alldata, etc.). Part of the reason probably is concern over technical neophytes messing with such complex machines. But I think it has more to do with profit--this baby is going to be a serious money maker, because the dealers will have a complete MONOPOLY on repairing it--independents and DIY'ers will not even be able to get a manual.
Sorry BMW, but that's the last straw. I'll pass.
What do you think though, do you get your cake and eat it too with a CPO used 7 Series with up to 100,000 miles of available warranty?
Which leads one to wonder if it wouldn't be cheaper to live somewhere else or, in the case of a used car, to buy something without such a high maintenance risk associated with it.
In the case of an E65, this risk analysis contributes directly to the rapid depreciation. So what you end up with is a car with a low relative market value compared to, say, a Lexus, but with a high premium tagged on for the CPO/extended warranty, so the cost seems to be the same, or even higher.
To me, the real cost in this situation is the ancilary cost of having your vehicle serviced. In my job I bill by the hour, so the cost of trudging up to the dealer, dropping the car off, farting around with alternate transportation for 1-3 days, and then returning to pick up the car easily adds up to $1000 or more in lost time. I vastly prefer a car which is reliable or, if it breaks, I can fix myself during my time off. From this point of view, a reliable car is a better deal than a car with questionable reliability, even if the questionable one comes with an extended warranty.
Why do you suppose Honda gets off with the crummy warranty it gives on its vehicles? Because given the choice between a reliable car with no warranty and an unreliable one with a warranty, the rational consumer will minimize his/her costs by picking the reliable car. So Honda outsells Kia despite the huge warranty difference.
Since the ultimate subject is the BMW 7 series, I want to add that my old E32 750 is reasonably reliable for its age and complexity. By the 6th year of production the bugs were pretty much gone. If it was totalled in an accident I would buy another. A used E38 should be solid as a rock. I would not hesitate to buy one without a warranty. And why buy a BMW over a Lexus? Because the former is a driving machine and the latter is not. The Bimmer is a better toy.
As far as service goes, our center and I would guess that the majority of the others around the country have scheduled loaner cars available and pick-up and delivery service. You can't beat that for convenience and then you don't have to be driving your honda around wishing that you'd gotten your very own "Ultimate Driving Machine".
But, do you really think that a used 7 Series with a CPO is the same price as a Lexus? What is the CPO premuim? 3K or so?
Anyway, my '00 E38 with 58k is running like a freight train, just the usual minor issues. I'm feeling lucky!
You'll have to answer that for yourself. I really have no idea. I do know that in comparison to a Lexus 400, my 750 cost a lot more new and is worth a lot less used. I think BMW 7-series depreciates faster because BMW lacks the reliability rep that Lexus has built for itself. Further, the reputation for technological advancement may create more sales for new cars, but used car seekers translate that same rep into words like "complex" and "expensive."
I can't disagree. My '93 750 has this gizzmo on the firewall plumbed into the brake system. I couldn't figure out what it was. Then I found out it was the "traction control module." Seems that in 1993 the Bosch ABS pump couldn't effect traction control because it didn't allow separate manipulation of the rear brakes. So BMW built a custom ABS module, plumbed into the rear brakes, which allows for traction control. The unit costs $2495 if it breaks (mine hasn't) and is almost impossible to access (add another $800 for the labor).
But I agree with bmwseller on one issue: ain't nothin quite like a BMW when running down the road. These are driver's cars with a veneer of luxury--iron fists in velvet gloves. The top of the door sill in my 750 is the same height as the sill for a C5 corvette. At a stop light I find myself looking UP at drivers in Mustangs and Civics. Can you say "low center of gravity?" My 7 is a 160mph sports car that happens to be a luxury car. A Lexus is a luxury car and nothing else (can you say "boring?")
By the way, couldn't agree more about the "drivers car" statement. On the interstate or rural secondary roads, nothing compares to a big, fast German car!
You'll do great!!! I like the size of the 5 but would certainly "settle" for a seven.
Hmm, lets see . . . I just replaced the switch for the rear sunshade @ $50. One xenon headlight went out and I passed on the $1250 replacement (!!!) and rewired for halogen. Just replaced the master cylinder. Still have original shocks, alternator, starter, a/c, cv joints, bushings, exhaust (except one your car doesn't have). Pretty darned original, really.
I totally replaced the cooling system, but that was because of a defective expansion tank cap (missed the recall). The headbolts failed and I had to rebuild the top end myself (no competant mechanic would touch the V12), but that's a long story not relevant to your V8.
This is mind boggling.
Many all-aluminum engines, including the BMW M70 V12's, use a head bolt system known as "torque to yield." Do a google search if you want more detailed info. (I can talk about it for pages, but I'll pass). At the simplest conceptual level, the "stretch" in the bolts is an integral part of the clamping force used to seal the head/block/gasket. The bolts are stretched just short of the point of permanent deformation (the "yield point").
One of the benefits of this system is that the bolts can be used as "circuit breakers" in case the block/head is overstressed, with the most obvious example being overhearting. It the bolts were extremely strong and held fast, the block and head would have to absorb the thermal expansion by warping. This would be very expensive with a V12. But with torque-to-yield the bolts already are stressed just short of permanent deformation, so when the block/head expand, the bolts just fail by stretching too far. This releaves expansion stress on the head/block, but leaves you having to install new bolts and head gasket. Way cheaper than new head/block castings, but still a pain in the [non-permissible content removed] (you can imagine how accessible the engine compartment is in a 750).
Anyway, my V12 did not overheat. The bolts just failed in normal use. This is a rare occurance, but it appears that BMW just couldn't get the V12 bolts quite right. There were several iterations of bolt design. To analogize: they stuck a 19.5 amp fuse in a 20 amp circuit and it thus was possible to overload the bolts during normal use.
Have I said enough?
Many motors by BMW and others use torque to yield head bolts. I've been told that Honda had similar issues with some of its 4cyl motors in the late 80's and early 90's. I would imagine that others also have not got the bolt design correct at first. I believe that most BMW I6 and V8 motors use torque to yield but have not exhibited premature failures like on my V12.
My other car is 2000 Buick Ultra. It has a CAST IRON BLOCK AND HEADS, which makes me feel very secure . Now if they could just work on the chinzy interior . . . .
BUT, you went opaque when you got to the good part. What do you mean by "The bolts just failed in normal use." How did you recognize this? A bolt just fell out? A blown head gasket?
TTY bolts usually do not fail by "breaking." They are stretched until they permanently deform (yield point) and thus loose their ability to hold the deck/gasket/head seal. They seldom reach the modulus of rupture, ie., the point where they actually crack and break. None of my bolts broke, but when I removed them I check the torque with my click-stop wrench. None retained more than 50 ft/lbs and some were under 40. This will not hold compression very well!
Maintenance is obviously not covered. Also, paint, glass, headlamps, mirrors,body seals, gaskets, iterior trim, exterior trim, moldings, fatsteners, upholstery, headliner, air/water leaks, wind/body noises, wheels, and "wear and tear". There is a big explanation for "wear and tear" and includes possible exceptions that may include piston rings, valves and valve guides, suspension bushings, ball joints, etc.....
Add in the $50 deductible and it is a fair departure from a new car warranty. But, check on one of these 'free warranty quote sites and see how where non-BMW products are going for so, it's good, but it's not too good to be true. As you would expect.
Certainly, more of the trim maintenance (mirrors, headlights,headliners, etc.) is now being shifted to the owner. The 7 series CPO owner can possibly expect some $500 service bills in exchange for a 30K reduction in purchase price and a $1500 reduction in sales tax (5% of 30K). for a gently used 7 series. Thats OK and more than fair. Sign me up.
For example, the best part of the WG plan for me was that their coverage period does not start until the date you buy the plan; not from the in-service date of the car. In other words, if you buy a 5-year 100k plan from WG a month before the fac. warranty expires you'll get close to NINE years of protection, assuming you don't hit the 100k mile limit before the 9 years are up. Most other plans advertise a maximum of 7 years/100k miles, but the 7 year period starts on the in-service date of the car. You're really only getting 3 additional years of coverage over and above the factory part.
This doesn't matter if you get to 100k miles on the car quickly, of course. I only have 44k on my 1998, so the extra 4 years (and 75k limit) that I bought suited my driving needs. WG will also quote you customized plans, even over 100k miles, but the price rises quickly on those. I think the quote I got for 5 extra years (limit 100k) was around $2200-$2300, IIRC. Once you get an online quote from WG they send you email "sale" notices regularly on their plans, and I was able to negotiate an extra few hundred off as well. Also keep in mind that if the CPO car is still in factory warranty you're paying for additional coverage up front. If you decide to get rid of the car early you've wasted a lot of money..
The only problem with WG (and other competitors) is that they use Chilton (or similar)rates to determine their claims reimbursements. This is fine for most shops, but your BMW dealer service department might get Bitter Beer Face over the claims "process". If you know you'll want to use a BMW dealer for repairs you might want to ask them whether they'll honor the rates before you decide.
DB
I'd want the BMW product that I know any BMW center will honor without question.
And scan through the list of the active discussions here at this link for further scoop on other companies: Finance, Warranty & Insurance board
Thanks
I'm zeroing on a 2001 740iL with sport so I'll need to replace the tires/wheels for the winter. I'll check out what TIRERACK has to offer.
Thanks again,
Jay
I now have had Firestone SH30's for 20,000 and it is a vastly superior tire, especially in the rain. Unfortunately, it is out of production!
Thanks again for the help,
-Jay
=====================================
I was looking at custom wheels for the snows I'm going to buy. The wheels will end up costing $400-$600. Are the rest of you that put snows on for the winter going through this?? or do people just buy steel rims and wheel covers for the the few months that the snows are on the car?
Thanks again,
-Jay
They'll ship the goods ready to install so there's not a lot of hassle.
JR