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And incase you are wondering why I no longer have a BMW, the reasons are because of the new design which I could get used to, but the main reason is the iDrive and the steering wheel mounted shifter. I absolutly love how it rides and handles, but it seemed to me that they took the fun out of driving it when they moved the shifter.
Interestingly, the article focused on German cars, brief mention was made of Cadillac and no mention of Japanese brands. Furthering the notion that the Germans are great engineers but lousy electricians! It will be interesting to watch the values of these cars over the next few years to see how they fare resale wise compared to their previous generation.
This day will be marked by two things: an unparalled buying opportunity for 7 fans and the gnashing of teeth and other facial grimmaces on the part of people who just lost a good chunk of equity. More money than they probably made their first year out of law school or medical school. (You know, like many things, a "good price" is all about whether you are buying or selling.)
Just to keep this pool on the up and up, we'll ask Bmwseller to hold the money.
As I'm already seeing very low mileage (7-12k) '02 7's on BMW lots in the high 50's, I'm betting these cars are going through the auctions at transaction prices in the high 40's already. My experience has been there is a huge gap between wholesale value and the retail (asking) price on the high-end cars. If that's the case, the owner trading an '02 7 with 20k miles is probably getting 45-47k Actual Cash Value for his/her $75-80k car. Boy, I'd be pissed! Also, the Atlanta dealers still have several '03 7's on the lots that I'll bet are being heavily discounted, further reducing the retail value of an '02. As attractive as this is to me, I'm steering way clear of the '02 7's as it's very evident many of these cars have electrical gremlins that are not only aggrivating, but in some cases render the car undriveable or inoperative.
The interesting thing is, lot's of these issues seem directly related to the complexity of the electronics which are controlled by the universally hated i-Drive. Rather than invest in the restyle or "freshening" as BMW puts it, why not rework the electronics, perhaps deleting the offending i-Drive, put the shifter back on the console and restore the driver oriented controls and cockpit that this great driving car deserve?
Here's hoping the Germans get it back on track soon before this great marque suffers the same fate as Audi in the early '80's!
C&D also predicted that the new 7 would take a real beating on resale value. I intend to own my old 1993 750 for at least another 6 years. The new 7 is NOT on my list of potential replacements. A good part of the reason for this is that not only is the vehicle extremely complicated, but BMW will not release repair info to third-parties such as Alldate or Chiltons. Suppose that's okay if all work is being done under warranty, but once that is over BMW's policy means you will be faced with a virtual dealer monopoly when the car needs fixing. Not a situation anyone wants to be in. It also poses a serious impediment to someone (like me) who likes to look over the mechanics shoulder and make sure the process is moving properly. Pretty hard to do if there is no access to info about the car.
For a used 7, all of this eventually this will translate into a reputation for being as expensive to maintain as a Rolls Royce, and you won't be able to give one away.
The large spread between wholesale and retail "asking" prices on luxury cars must be because a) the reseller is taking a large risk in just putting one of these 50K used cars in his inventory, more risk than say on a quick turning, 15k Honda, and needs more reward for the risk and b) the reseller needs some room to negotiate the price down upon the potential buyer's request.
Tasillo AND F1Buick:
Would you feel the same way about a CPO 2002 7 Series? What if Munich shouldered the burden out to 100K? At what price would a non-CPO 2002 become attractive?
ALL of this, in my mind, just points to the idiocy of placing huge amounts of money in an asset which you fully expect to suffer exteme depreciation at some point. Even if you are not the person who ends up holding the bag at the end, the fact is that the known future for this vehicle is that someone will end up holding that bag. This creates a risk spreading/avoidance situation that WILL effect value at all stages, though work arounds like extended warrenties and special insurance will distort the economics/mathematics a bit.
Ain't no free lunches. The question is who pays. And if you think it through, you'll probably find out that even if it looks like someone else is footing the bill for you, that probably is not entirely the case. If might be risk rather than money, but the cost will be there.
If you want a used 7-series look for an E38 750. It's to die for.
My brother mentioned that the WSJ had an article
on the new 7 and its problems.(maybe he meant USA
TODAY)He said BMW was buying back some of these
cars on condition they sign an agreement not to
disclose the buy back. The experience I've had with my 1998 740i is less than steller. It has
65000 miles. I thought all the bugs were being worked at when It was going in for repairs on an
average of every four months. Under warranty this
was fine except for the inconvenience. Catalytic
converter(both),replace LCD instrument panel,
rear suspension, center tie rod, thrust rod
bushings,induction cleaning kit, a/c compressor
($1376 for the A/C alone) My mistake may have been
not buying the extended warranty.Love the ride
but my next car will be a Lexus, boring drive and
all.
F1Buick, extremely well put point. Its a bit like musical chairs. Someone is going to get caught out when the music (read: warranty) stops and until then the organizers of the game have to have artificial incentives to get people to take a chance and play it.
Maybe thats one reason why if you "don't have to" be seen in a 7 Series/E Series/etc. you just say screw it and buy a Tahoe/Expedition with a roof and leather. That (and a primary and secondary housing market on speed) is IMHO why a lot of high income people are happy enough with a loaded up SUV.
I doubt there is much cross-shopping between luxo SUV's and german autobahn blasters. The SUV's are for people who view driving as chore, the effort of which is to be minimized. They are buying SUV's now instead of the Cadillacs they would have bought 40 years ago, partially because of the perceived utility of the SUV body style and partially because of a highly misguided belief about the "safety" of AWD.
Regarding Terry79's problems, that certainly is an unusual and troublesome list. Perhaps now that the warranty is gone he might shop for another repair option beside the local dealer's service department. The list is unusual enough to suggest a bit of "overdiagnosis" by the shop, e.g., how did BOTH cat converters happen to go bad, when they are independent of each other? One would be unusual at that mileage. Two seems almost impossible.
But, I think that some of the Luxo SUV owners would be driving autobahn blasters if there was more AWD available (8 million people live in New England alone, ya know) and less perceived depreciation and mechanical bugaboos. Afterall, many of us did drive these cars 20 years ago when the cars were simpler, there weren't any Suvs, and the housing market (both for a primary residence and a vacation place) wasn't competing for our dollars.
On the other hand, owning a Luxo Suv also fits one's lifestyle if you identify with the first generation of Americans who feel comfortable going out in public in jeans and a sweat shirt. Lets be tactful and call it the Home Depot Generation.
With SUV's I think the AWD thing combines with the high seating postition to create a false sense of security. Phrases like "center of gravity," "roll center," and "unsprung weight" are not understood, and people think they are buying safety when they most definitely are not.
I agree with your "home depot" analogy. But as a person who has owned a number of pickups, I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would buy an SUV for perceived utility. My sister just bought an X5 and it has less room than my 750, and way less than my Park Avenue. There really isn't that much room in the back of most SUV's short of a suburban.
I feel like SUV's are for people who kind of want a truck and then try to compromise by buying something that is not a truck and which really can't do what a truck can. I'll take a big trunk or an truck bed over the tail end of an SUV any day.
I know it isn't popular to suggest it, but when the weather is snotty (six months a year in New England) or snow is banked on both sides of the road I'd rather be in an SUV than a 750. Good visibility, clearer, dryer windshield, more "freeboard", etc. One good splash from a truck in a 7 Series and you'd think you were out in a Boston Whaler Montauk without GPS.
I'm a regular home handyman, and I've been without a truck for almost a year. Know what? you can work around it. I miss being able to just throw stuff in the bed of my truck, but (and this is a big point) you can't do that in an SUV either: the utility of an enclosed cargo space is limited.
I'm planning a sheet rock run in the next couple weeks and I'll have to rent a trailer for $35. The SUV couldn't handle the rock either. If I added removable roof racks to the Buick, I'd have just as much capacity to haul sheet rock as somebody in an Explorer. But the other 99.9% of the time I'm driving, I wouldn't have to deal with a lumbering, roll-happy, poor-braking SUV (I'd say gas-eating, but nobody with a V12 can complain about that).
Regarding snow, I'll admit that as a Pacific Northwesterner I don't have the same issues as someone in, say, Maine. However, the east coasters and canadians on my bmw board consistently post that with traction control and full manual shifting, their 7's perform just fine.
I've driven/owned a number of 4wd's and while its personal opinion, I think 4wd is over-rated except for the very worst snow storms (at which point the 2wd has to chain up). A front wheel driver with traction control and winter tires is a pretty darn good snow car. rwd is passable with the right technique.
While I agree that 4wd and SUV's have unique qualities that are occassionally useful, I think that in 99% of driving situations those qualities are not useful or, worse, detract from overall safety. How many times has BMW been sued for a rollover in a 7 series? Darned thing is a corvette with 4 doors. How rollovers do we see with SUV's? A lot! And these poor, ignorant people were buying "the safety of 4wd."
A couple years ago I had a tire blow in my 750 at 75mph. Stability-wise, it was a nonevent. The car didn't lunge, jerk, or dart. Heck, i drove a few hundred yards before I was even sure what had happened. Then I just pulled over onto the shoulder and changed the tire.
why the difference between the two scenarios? Well, for one thing the 7 is a corvette with 4 doors, with a very low centre of gravity. the second thing is that i didn't invite trouble by slamming the brakes or jerking on the steering wheel (which, i suspect, was a common reaction by those unfortunate explorer drivers).
So which vehicle is safer? 4wd will assist traction on a few snow days. even on the east coast, the amount of time in a year during which that 4wd actually will be helpful is a small fraction of your total driving time. the low center of gravity of a passenger sedan, especially a 7, is a fundamental dynamic advantage is that is ALWAYS helpful (even in snow) and is there ALL of the time. I'll take a feature that is an advantage 100% of the item over one that is only an advantage 1% of the time (and is a disadvantage the other 99%) any day of the week.
My 3yr lease on a 2001 740il with 39+k miles is about to expire. I can purchase the vehicle for $38.8k, and I think that this purchase price is good. I have had no problems with the vehicle, just installed new brakes, and love the car. I don't feel the need to buy an extended warranty to 100k miles, or pay the premium for a similar certified pre-owned model. Other than routine maintainance, are there any expected big-ticket repairs on this car if I plan to drive the car for another 3-5 years?
I would appreciate any input. Thanks in advance.
Sounds like a great buy to me! As you're the original owner, you can attest to the maintenance and repair record of the car, as wel as it's accident history (if any). In Atlanta, '01 7's with 40k miles are typically going in the real high 30's, low 40's so your purchase price is in the ball park. I have heard of some owners being able to negotiate the purchase price with the leasing company, so you may want to offer a bit less and see if they bite. If you don't buy the car it will go to an auction and sell for market wholesale, likely in the low 30's for your car. The leasing company will also have the expense of transportation and auction fees as well as clean-up and detail. Offer them 35k, who knows, they may bite! Your chances are better if the car is leased through a bank or leasing company other than BMW Financial Services. BMW Financial will likely send the car to a closed auction in which only BMW dealers will participate. They can then certify the car at little or no expense as it is still under warranty and free maintenance and sell if for a premium at their franchised dealership. An open auction will have other dealers and high-line sellers present who may have interest in your car but cannot offer their buyer the BMW certification.
As to your question of repair, my '00 740iL has crossed over 60k miles with no issues other than some of the pixels on the odometer/trip computer (not nav display) going out. I haven't even looked into the cost of repair but since I mentioned it to the dealer prior to the warranty expiring, I'm hopeful they'll cover it. No other issues at all.
The last generation 7 is truly a great car and in my opinion a better proposition than the new 7 due to it's straightforward (for a German car) controls and sleek yet non-controversial styling.
If you decide not to buy out the lease, post back to this forum, I'd bet you'd find some interested buyers!
I am planning on buying a 1999 BMW 750il. Does anyone know how these cars handle in the snow? One of the features in this car is that it has the all season traction control. Does this really help in the handling of the car in snowy conditions? I'm a big fan of fwd because of its better handling in snow versus the real wheel drive. Will the ASC really make a dirrerence? Any insight from you who knows first hand is highly appreciated and thank you in advance.
having said this, I don't drive the bimmer in the snow, as I have a 2000 park avenue with fwd, full traction control, and more aggressive tires.
Also, $75 oil change is way too much considering I can get it done for $25 or so elsewhere.
Infiniti always gave me a loaner even though I didn't buy the car from them - and that was for any amount of maintenance.
For a car nut like me who hasn't owned Bimmers since grad school in the early 70's, it makes fascinating reading. Naturally there is the usual sociological tension between the true believers who still have 2002s and the bourgeois financial service types who are snapping up the latest cars. But the interesting thing is the range of tech problems and service requirements. No anal-compulsive Porche owner or even Abrams M1 crew chief has anything on some of the service levels required and problems encountered. The letters to the editor and letters to Tech Talk are filled with stories that would cause the owners of any other brand to firestorm the company plant.
Just looking at 7 Series problems (we won't even mention the oil pump nut backing off issue on the M3s, etc.), in the December issue there is a letter from a guy with a 1997 740i who spent 10K of his own money on a new engine because a plastic (??) radiator extension broke. And the car is a CPO (see home.earthlink.net/~hainesinutah/radiator)! In the Tech Line section of the same isssue a guy got banged 3.5 hours by his dealer to replace a crankshaft positon sensor. Roundel acknowledges the job would take a "very seasoned do it yourself type" about an hour, defends the flat rate time and then comments that, thank God for small favors, this this problem is "common only on BMW V8 engines."
Wow. I sure want to go out and buy a BMW after reading this.
I'm also guessing that someone sold him a new engine, at an inflated price, when the old one just needed a bit of machine shop work. Because of the electronics and the head bolt design, it is pretty much impossible to crack/warp the block and heads on these cars through overheating.
The present problem with buying a BMW is that the company no longer releases service information on its cars to 3rd parties such as Bentley, Haynes, and Alldata. Thus, you MUST go to the dealer for any sort of significant service. That dealer now has a MONOPOLY and as anyone with economic training can tell you, this means you are screuwd.
I gave up on my local BMW dealer after one trip in which it became clear that I knew a lot more about the car than his "BMW certified technicians" did, and that his primary interest was emptying my bank account. I now do all my own work exclusively, except when I need special equipment, in which case I hire an independent and leave very specific instructions on what shall be done. For most potential BMW owners, this isn't an option, and the cost of the dealer's monopoly absolutely must be considered when buying one of these cars.
Everytime my 750 breaks I complain. Then I get it running again, take it out for a spin, and say "whoa baby, now I remember why I put up with this thing."
Thanks.
i have an old, integrated analog and any rewiring is impossible for me. the issue isn't analog/digital, it is finding a phone that has has the hardware and the software to integrate with and talk to the dash display, steering column stalks, etc. So it isn't the CAR it is the PHONE. Find out who really made your present phone (wasn't BMW, that's for sure) and ask them if there is an upgraded version. My guess is there will not be, but its worth a shot.
It seems as though Mercedes, BMW and other high-end manufacturers would allow for telephone upgrades with some type of adapter kit.
Since at this time last year I was planning on keeping my car till the wheels came off, I went ahead and had a top-end freshen up done including a cam shaft replacement. I got to see all the internal parts to my top-end. Boy, does it pay off to change your oil frequently.
Well, my car is great, runs like a top, I drive 20k miles a year, but am really starting to like the new cars like Audi A6, A8, and am very skeptical about the new 7.
My car is very reliable, would like to have 300 hp engine though.
Planning on keeping my old 735 and give to one of my kids.
I am undecided over a 2001 740, a used 2003 745, a new A6 quattro, or a used 2004 A8.
My purchase time frame is October 2004.
What do you guys recommend ? I am a BMW person, my dad had '72 2002 that I learned to drive with.
You might be better off looking for a nice clean 2/3k 03 760 and save yourself $20 grand ...
Terry.
the 1995-2002 7 series (E38) basically is an update of the E32. That's what I'd be looking for. Should be pretty bulletproof.
The A8 is intriguing, but very rare--who you gonna get to work on it? No mechanic will know anything about it and they'll want to charge you for the time they spend educating themselves.
The A6 started life as the Volkwagon A4 chassis (read: Passat) and seems to be taking a dive in resale value. The overall engineering/quality won't approach that in your E32 or in an E38.
I have looked at them and they are strikingly similar inside as well.
I have read this board thoroughly and notice most of the complaints on the 745i to be focused on the 2002, not the 2003, the iDrive, which I can already operate (I sell software), and the change in body style, which I happen to really like, especially with 19" rims.
I test drove the 2003 Q45 premium the other day. Totally disappointed with the ride. Immediately I sat inside a 2004 745Li, Wow, what a difference.
If I don't see reliability improvements in the 2003 745i by the time I'm ready to buy in 10/04, I will just keep my 735i and buy a condo in Fla or something.
Thanks!
I have allways bought American made cars at invoice are a little below.Plus what ever rebate they have.
I know the pricing on this car is a different ball game. THANKS
Spoke with my accountant. Based on depreciation and TCO, it does not make sense to purchase an automobile over $50k with life expectancy of 100,000 miles.
Amazing what you can learn via numbers. Say good bye to my buying a 745i....GM, here I come.
Conversely my '00 740 (63k miles) has never refused to start, run well and generally make me very happy with my decision 3 years ago. I agree with the earlier posts that the car is way overcomplicated and the matrixed wiring network is about impossible to diagnose and fix when defective. Further, as electronics tend to either work or not early in life and only deteriorate over time. As expensive cars depreciate significantly once over 50k miles, who'd gonna want one of these in 2006 with 45-50k coming off lease or on a trade. Even with BMW certification to 100k miles, that only gives a 50k buffer until things get real expensive. Perhaps BMW will go to 150k miles on certification with these cars. That may be an interesting proposition.
As is, when my current 7 is ready for replacement, I'm most likley to sacrifice some of the driving experience for the resale and relaibility of Lexus.