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Of course, BMW stuck it's neck out with this approach to engineering, and is suffering growing pains, but I think they will successfully stay the course. I'm actually surprised that the car has sold as well as it has, but the car has some excellent appeal aside from the glitches that some have experienced.
DB
Presumably the bugs would be worked out, BMW would stand near me (as opposed to behind it) for three (?) more years, and I'd save 30K. Then I dump it on a pizzeria owner who never heard of the IRS and run.
What did I miss? I know that there isn't a free lunch.
The old rule of thumb has been that you never buy a new design in the first 3 years of production, because it takes that long to iron out the bugs and make any necessary tooling changes. This rule probably holds true even today. The first three years of the E32 (1988-90) have numerous electrical and software problem that the last 3 years don't have. The software was fixed, numerous troublesome circuit boards were redesigned, etc.
Applied to the E65, this means you should avoid 2002-2005. If you don't want to buy new and suffer the depreciation, that means you can start shopping for that used 745 in 2009, when the first ones start coming off 36-month leases. Heck, by then they might even be good deal since the early years will have poisoned the resale value.
Most of BMW's nightmares are kept a big secret, they want that "aura" of the ~ invincible vehicle .. with the failure of the new "7" (and who knows about the new "5") they still feel that the market will just wake up, smell the roses and buy their vehicle ... the problem is, the dealers have been crying for some help for over 18 months and they aren't ordering them .. that's a lot of floor plan cost to have sitting around when folks aren't cracking the doors ..
Terry.
Having said that, it is amply clear to me that BMW does indeed favor more complex designs. My good old dad, an engineer who traveled all over the world on projects, once told me something that, at the time, I dismissed as amero-centric (is this a word?), but I now have to agree with.
He said that if you give a German engineer a design that is 5% better on some level, but 100% more complex, he will chose the complex design. An American engineer is the opposite--he will gladly forego a bit of functionality in favor of simplicity. A parochial generalization from a WWII vet? Probably. But there is a bit of truth to it.
My Park Avenue is the "Ultra" model, with every gadget and gizmo in GM's arsenal. But the wiring diagram for my 750 is 3 times the size. This is not an exaggeration. Some of the complexities are a bit bizzare--why does BMW use FIVE relays to turn on the bloody headlights? And if they go this overboard on something as simple as headlights, I can only shudder at what they must have done with i-Drive, or with that two-stage steering in the new 5.
One of the reasons that your partner's car has seen so many modules replaced is related to the BMW's complexity. Unless BMW starts making a MENSA membership a prerequisite to working in the dealer service departments, there is no way the average service tech can understand the car or diagnose what is going on. It already was that way with my old 750--the techs did not understand the car and blindly followed the BMW diagnostic software. My 750 is simple compared to the 745.
That software only goes so far: it peels back a couple layers of the onion, gets a general idea of where the problem likely lies, and then says "replace everything in this area." The result is underdiagnosis and over-repairing.
Software flaws should be correctible at any time. Many of the early flaws in the E65 strike me as software flaws, correctable with updated Eproms. This is good as far as it goes, but it can also create the illusion that everything is "fixed" when in fact the only thing fixed was what was easily fixable.
The E65 is a major departure in system architecture from the E38, so it is more likely to have flaws requiring correction at the production process level. The LS430 was a conservative design and thus was less likely to exhibit such flaws. I imagine the same is true for the new Jag XJ. The E65, on the other hand, is full of stuff that NOBODY has ever tried before, like an otto-cycle engine without a throttle. I would not have much confidence that anyone would get a clean-sheet redesign, full of such experimental stuff, right on the first try. Nor would I expect the flaws to be corrected in the first couple years.
As I said before, the E32 was a similiar situation. Released in 1987 with a new V12 motor, drive-by-wire throttles, computer-controlled tranny, electronic stability control, all sorts of stuff which was radical, Formula-one level tech for its day. The first year was full of flaws, and the next two had gradually fewer. Many fundamental issues, however, were not resolved until after the third production year because circuit boards needed redesigns, etc.
The E38 successor to the E32 didn't have the same teething problems because it was an evolution, not a revolution. The E65 is a revolution.
Well, guess that is what warranties are for. Hope I'm wrong. I'm sure the E65 is a stunning car to drive.
all 4 tires are factory bridgestone 245/50 r18.
why wouldn't this be part of regular maintenance?
also, not ONE problem with my car. every time you get in it's exhilarating. biggest problem was when the dealer didnt know how to buff a black car properly...it was a joke how they responded on a $70k car. 14,000 miles & not one issue.
i-drive is ez...like using a mouse pad on a menu driven system. i dont know what all the hubub was about.
I am leasing so if this baby bugs out...no problem, they get the car back.
Giving my trusty 1992 735i , beautiful white/tan, 174k miles, running like brand new, to my son.
It was between a nice 2001 740i w sport package for $35k with 35,000 miles or a new 745i.
The payment over 36 months is about equal...no brainer.
I was totally impressed by the 740i...I got to test drive it alone...no salesman...the car is now deemed 'broken in', heheheheh!.
Great car....have not driven the 745...first time I buy a car without a test drive. All I hear is how much better it is than the 740....hard to believe, can't wait.
At this time, Lexus(Toyota) is the only luxury marque with the relentless pursuit of excellence as a corporate "mantra". "Getting it right" the 1st time is part of their corporate being.
Their challenge has been a lack of design and performance passion, not a manufacturing passion. This all stems from their lean manufacturing orientation that has driven them for decades... and still drives them.
My personal experience with lean manufacturing tells me that it can make a dramatic impact... witness the dramatically improved J.D. Power scores for Jaguar! They have made substantive improvements in their manufacturing and product launch processes by applying elements of lean mfg. Still not at the level of Lexus, but certainly a world apart from where they were 5-10 years ago.
The Germans have focused on design and engineering excellence, which often translates into complexity. If they figure out how to marry the best of lean mfg with their ability to engineer the finest performance vehicles on the planet, look out!
Without a major dissertation on lean... just consider that each generation of Toyota passes approx 70 percent of its content to the next generation. Camry's today have feature content from prior Lexus models. Corolla's today have panel fits and feature content from prior upline models.
From f1buick's comments above, you may never see a Lexus LS with 5 relays used in the operation of headlights! They would anticipate the maintenance problems. In fact, one might suppose the greatest asset of Lexus/Toyota to be manufacturing excellence... insiders might differ and say that "problem-solving" by the real "value-adder" employee is their greatest asset!
I say all this as an extremely passionate 2003 BMW 530 SP owner. BMW got this platform right. The challenge is getting the 1st unit of the 1st model year for a new platform right from the start. If the new 7 was built to Lexus standards, we'd all possibly forgive Bangle (well, maybe!) a bit just to enjoy the faultless joy of driving a fabulous car designed to perform unlike any other in its category.
I often use a quote from Peter Drucker when assessing today's automotive manufacturing challenge... "An innovation, to be effective, has to be simple and has to be focused. It should do only one thing, otherwise, it confuses. All effective innovations are breathtakingly simple. Indeed, the greatest praise an innovation can receive is for people to say: This is obvious. Why didn't I think of it?"
The concept of iDrive is easy to understand, but the execution has been poor. "It confuses". Let's hope BMW will not take 3+ years to figure this out!
The resales on the new 7's are weaker than pond water .. 02 745Li's with all the stuff and miles in the 12/15k range are only doing "around" that $50kish range for trade/auction $$, that's pretty sad for a vehicle that had an MSRP of $80ish+ 18 months ago ...
Terry.
Tire mfg's, on the other hand, generally insist on tire rotation if you want to maintain the mileage warranty.
Regarding a "720iL" V8, there is not and never has been such a car. The last two digits indictate the engine's liter displacement, i.e., a 745 has a 4.5 liter engine. A 720 would have a 2.0 liter engine. The only 2.0 liter BMW engine is a 4 cylinder.
Back in the early 80's you could get a 720 in Europe--a full sized sedan with the tiny 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engine. Never made it to the US for obvious reasons.
Only 1989 7 series models were the 735 six cyl and the 750 v12.
warning: the 1993-1995 740 V8 had a "nikasil" engine which was defective. Avoid this car unless the engine has been replace with an "alusil" engine. don't trust the dealer to properly inform you on this issue.
Wow.....that's reassuring! I thought this kind of stuff only happened to Oldsmobile,,,
The problem is that the cylinder walls corroded in the presence of high-sulpher US fuels. Lots of used car dealers out there are selling nikasil V8 740's, asking top dollar and not even aware of the problem.
1995-98 Jag V8 has the same problem, but apparently to much less of a degree.
Threads like this are a good example of how misinformation gets spread around on these boards and eventually accepted by many as truth.
There was a problem with the 1995 4.0L and high-sulphur fuel in some southeastern states. Here in California the problem is non-existent. Yet, dealers and private sellers are asking anything BUT top dollar. They are practically giving away 1995/1996 740-series.
Any 1995 740 that has not had Nikasil-related engine problems to this date never will. A clean, well-running '95 could be the ultimate 740-series bargain.
The Nikasil V8 was intoduced in 1993 and infected all 1993 and 1994 e32 v8's. BMW extended the warranty on all of these cars to 100,000 miles and 6 years. I can personally vouch for that because when I shopped a 1993 V8 in 1997 the salesman made a big deal about the extended warranty, and the service manger quietly warned me away from the V8 because of the known, nikasil issue.
Yet somehow you think the problem was limited to 1995.
as for the idea that it is limited to the southeast, I personally know people in the Northwest whose V8 blocks were replaced under warranty due to nikasil corrosion of the cylinder walls. Or maybe BMW was just giving away free engine blocks for the heck of it?
more info on the problem can be found at numerous web sites which, unfortunately, Edmunds will not let me give links to ("competing" sites). I'll just say that on one very active BMW 7-series board, we get at least one poor fool a month who just bought a nikasil 740 and now is realizing that rough idle will not be fixed by a "tune up."
Whether a 4.0 block is nikasil or alusil can be determined by examining the serial number. Due to the link problem, any interest person will have to Google for a list of serial numbers to stay away from.
Any other opinions on this?
If this were an American car line, New York's Elliot Spitzer would have them in court once Martha vacated a court room. And I write this as a former 7 Series owner who had good experiences!
As an aside, I spoke with a fellow tonight about his new 7 Series. I fully expected a blast about i Drive. Rather than knock it, he dismissed with it as just something that you get used to using. His big complaint was the overly gimmicky features of the car that resulted in all new control settings when he picked it up after dealer service. He continued on about the tendency for i Drive to reset his radio settings, the lack of a solid feel with the controls (he constantly leaves his left turn signal on for the first time in his life), and all the other gimmicks that annoy as opposed to impress. Wow! He wasn't a happy camper in his 80K soap box. As we both left the athletic club parking lot with the snow coming down heavily I suspect he would have been far happier in a Denali or AWD Volvo for a lot less money and aggravation. Maybe these aren't the Ultimate Driving machines but you can get home in them in New England on a February night.
I think you probably are right. It still is more than possible, however, to pick up a 4.0 liter BMW V8 that has NOT been carefully shielded from low-sulpher fuel, and it is hard to tell exactly what they are selling down at the local Quicky-Mart on a given day. Therefore, a 4.0 liter BMW V8 has an element of risk associated with it which is not found in other automobiles.
The 4.4 liter V8 and all V12's are Alusil motors which do not have the sulpher corrosion problem.
I'll also note that the particular Nikasil formulation used on the 4.0 liter BMW V8 seems to have been particularly susceptible to sulpher corrosion and that other Nikasil engines (e.g., Porsche and Jaguar) are not nearely as "at risk" as the BMW.
I am in the process of buying a 1984 733I, but I want alittle more history on the 733I itself. I can't seem to find any comments on this vehicle. Is there anyone out there to direct me to website that can tell me the original sticker price for this vehicle. It seems I should be able to find something.
List price was about $37,000 without options.
Graham Robson has a nice book out on the History of the 7 series which you can buy for $22 from Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1861264399/104-5259- 879-4157568?v=glance
I'm sure that a search on Google using the keywords "History of the BMW 7 Series" will get you to parts outlets and forums.
Also be sure you have this car checked out thoroughly prior to purchase as they can be expense to repair relative to their market value, which is not very high at the moment. So be sure you pay a fair price as well. Very often parts can be found on Ebay, I have very good luck there--if one is patient.
Good luck with it.
MrShiftright
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Are there different dashboard layouts for this car or am I missing something here?
Thanks for your help!!
Sounds complicated I know, but pretty easy once you've done it a couple of times.
I hope this helps.. good luck.
XJ8?
S500?
I think there are 3 types of people who own cars like this:
1. Those who lease them new and under warranty
2. Those who buy them out of warranty, thinking they are getting a great deal, but who then find out that maintenance can be pricy and try to sell them
3. Those hardy souls who do all their own maintenance and repairs, and end up with a world-class auto for cheap.
I'm in the latter category. My car actually is pretty darned reliable for an 11 year-old, but when it does falter, it is not easy to work on.
If your a hot-rodder who loves to tinker, these cars are nirvana. If you like Honda Accords just fine and are only considering the 750 because the price sounds low and you're curious about having a BMW, stay away.
But how about the canny guy who zips in to buy a CPO 7 Series for somewhere in the high 30's (because of the high depreciation) and then dumps it years later at 99,000 miles when the CPO warranty runs out? Didn't he beat the system? Or is the CPO Warranty essentially a come on and not comparable to the new car warranty?
My main concern is that I have heard reports that a refreshed 7 Series sedan is comming relatively soon; seen claims from as early as late this year to 2005.
I would like to take delivery of a new sedan sometime late this year. Should I wait it out for the 2005 model or just get the '04? (I am worried that because it will be a refreshed model, there will be software/electrical bugs, as opposed to the '04 model, which has been out for two years).
Any input would be great! (FYI: Although I enjoy the BMW the most, I am also considering the Audi A8L, Jaguar Vanden-Plas, and Mercedes S430 (hopefully it will be better!)
Thanks.
Even so, if this is a good guide, it looks like I can pick up a 745 next April for the target price and even get a CPO unit. (How else to buy one of these?). I happen to like the regular wheelbase series (do you really need the iL to carry around a gym bag?). Does anyone think that the iL commands significantly more resale than a non iL or is it a non-issue? Even if one was going to get a set of snow tires on dedicated wheels for winter and make the tire size difference between the two wheelbases a moot point, the larger tire/wheel package on the iL must hydroplane more and less suitable to foul weather?
In any case, I figure that with the 30K I saved over MSRP, I could hire a good looking programmer to check me out on I drive for the first week or so.