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Comments
I did remember seeing a JD Powers initial quality was high for the Jag. I guess it was down hill after the purchase.
In response to your tongue-in-cheek question about which controls in the Accord felt fragile, I suppose it all boils down to what you are use to. Comparing what was then my year old Passat to a brand new Accord, I felt I could readily snap off the control stalks in the Accord and play havoc with some of the loosely assembled switches. If it was a few years earlier, I wouldn't have sensed this since I was driving an Integra. So I guess driving a Passat can be good for both the body and mind(i.e. fun).
Actually Jag had the steepest downhill trip in JD Powers rating in a year, ever.
Hiflyer:
I got your point. Some pieces may have fallen and I never noticed.
Undecided11:
Being in Dallas, can't say much on snow, but have had spent some time in extreme icy conditions over three winters since owning the Accord. It does provide some control and good feedback via the steering wheel. Whenever the road has been extremely slippery, I've started it in the second gear (no TCS available). On snow however, it has been very positive experience during a trip to Missouri. Never been stuck in snow or slipped on ice to date.
Well, it handled beautifully, smooth and tight. But the seats! They were so rock-hard, I just couldn't imagine living with them. And they were too short, we felt like we needed more support. My husband and I found the car somewhat noisy and with inadequate cargo room (ample trunk space is a big issue for us). I was crushed - I had expected to be making an offer to the VW dealer.
So off to Toyota. The Camry XLE was comfortable, handled very well in our opinion, had a lot of good features. And there's good trunk space.
We still want to drive the Infiniti I 30 and Subaru Outback Wagon. It's hard to find the combination of things we want in one car, so final decision will depend on whether we lean towards luxury or towards utility.
It's been great reading everyone's posts here, very informative even when (alas!) in the end I just can't share the enthusiasm for the VW.
180,000 miles of trouble free driving later I purchased a new 1988 Accord Lxi for less than $16,000.
Both of these vehicles were "top of the line" at the time of purchase.
The Lxi now approaches 200,000 miles, has been struck from behind (only cosmetic damage), and flooded two inches deep inside the vehicle.
It runs like the day I drove it off the dealer's lot except for minor rattles and wind noise.
I would love to purchase a "top of the line" Accord again but their price increases have exceeded my pay raises.
I would be curious at the best price anyone has purchased a 6cyl EX.
Accord has long term reliablity (historically) on its side vs. the Passat and is a little cheaper. The Passat is a little safer (better crash test ratings), but needs premium fuel (30 cents more a gallon @ 15k miles = $180 more per year), and long term reliability is questionable. I'd like to get 10 years and 150k miles.
I'm really on the fence here.
Any thoughts? (and sorry for the long post)
Joel
The Camry, I can't understand why people even buy these with the 4cyl model?
We didn't try a GLS v-6, but are the cloth seats a bit softer?
When I lived in Europe, I sat in several Mercedes, no problem. They didn't seem as stiff as the VW.
I think it's going to come down to the Infiniti vs. the Camry XLE though. Vince is right, the 6 cylinders much better than the 4.
(P.S. to jin - many congrats on your quitting smoking! How much better do you feel now? And bet you can really taste those steaks now that you don't have ciggy taste in your mouth!)
I'm sorry you found the seats hard, I've got a GLX leather and they are fine. I would imagine the cloth seats are softer, but they are lint collectors. Did you try more than one GLX, maybe the one you sat in was unusual? Again, good luck.
P.S. Before you go for the Infinity or XLE (yech - no offense), go test drive the Acura TL. You might be pleasently surprised. I had considered the TL, but I had bought my wife an Accord 2 weeks earlier and really like the Passat more.
No, we only drove one. I'm in SW Michigan right now, not that many import dealers around (I'll have to drive an hour and a half at least to get to an Infiniti dealer) and the dealership we went to only had one GLX V-6 (Bright Green w/ beige leather - very nice looking). Maybe a fluke, we could try again, but the Audi was definitely much more comfortable - and much more bucks!
We definitely don't want the Acura, no fold-down rear seats and that's a big issue. It's just us and our small dog, no kids, so luggage space is more desirable than back seat space. And besides, when one seat is folded down the wee doggie is quite happy in the other one, in his little "den." Sheesh, what have we come to, living our life completely for the convenience of the dog!
Anyway, what's so terrible about the Camry? It's smooth, reliable, quiet, priced right, a good size, the XLE has a reasonable amount of luxury goodies - its alleged "lack of personality" doesn't seem to be hurting it any in sales. Thing is I want one with traction control, and haven't found any yet with that option. Any Camry owners out there who can comment on whether the traction control is a worthwhile option?
You may well be right about the Variant, and I've been thinking I could use sheepskin seat covers or something (how's that for "warm fuzzies!), because we truly did like how the Passat handled. My husband still wants to drive some Subarus, and I want to see the Infiniti, but I think another stop at the VW dealer could well be in order. Will let you know how that pans out.
My sister has a 97 Civic EX with about 75,000 miles and the only repair she has had is replacing her front brakes once. Her car doesn't have any rattles either.
These two cars have sold me on Honda reliability, the first in our family, so I just brought a TL in November which now has over 7,500 miles and not a problem. They all drive great.
Since I sell Toyotas i can comment that the Camry is for those who want a luxurious ride in a nicely packaged car at a reasonable price, and not much else. Honda owners will not trade their cars in on Camrys, they dont like them. It all Depends on what characteristics you prefer really.
I've had my '98 Accord EX since October 1997, now 'maintenance required' indicator blinking to remind me of 45K mile service (actually I have just over 44K miles on the odometer). To date, the car has only had 7500 mile scheduled maintenance services and one $20 oil change between those services (i.e. oil changes every 3000-4000 miles). Other than that, in April or May 1998, I discovered a faint squeak from the moonroof. This was fixed with the first 7500 mile service, by lubricating the rubber seals. Since then, no squeak, and if it occurs again, I know what it will take to fix it (silicon spray). No leaks from the moon roof, and absolutely no annoyances from the car. Running on original tires and original brake pads. It is a great car. Common, but nice.
'98 Accord EX (Black/44K miles, auto)
'00 Prelude (Black/10K miles, manual)
There aren't nearly as many die hard "Toyota fans" as Hondas. Toyota cater to the "everyday people" that you take for granted on the road, not car enthusiast. And non-enthusiast don't hang around in car forums such as Edmunds much. So if you are not interested in sports, it's hard to qualify as a fan of a particular team/brand. If you know what I mean.
Buy a Toyota if you are more interested in comfort and quietness, "luxury feel" if you prefer to word it that way. That's Toyota's specialty. But if you are more interested in heart stopping performance, it isn't for you, that's Honda's specialty.
Not saying the Accord is a sports car, or the Camry is a luxury car. But they tend to lean in those respective directions. Your best bet is what you were going to do anyway, test drive it, and see if it fits your style.
I have now officially tested everything we were interested in! Whew! Ruled out the Infiniti today - for that much money, we just didn't fall in love with it. Excellent car obviously in many ways, but it just didn't do it for us. It was higher-revving than we expected. And it had an annoying vertical seam in the leather that rubbed against our backs. I know this is nit-picky, but for over 30,000 I don't want pesky small annoyances.
Now it's down to the 300M and the Camry XLE! The 300M is more fun with the auto-stick, more plush, about ten inches longer, which could be an advantage on the highway but a detriment to city parking. Right now the prices seem very good. I will trot over to the appropriate forum to discuss further...
The local Toyota dealer doesn't have quite what I want in stock (no traction control) but a dealer in the Washington area (where I'll be in three weeks) expects to have one that sounds right in both color and options. Does the Toyota traction control work by cutting power or by diverting power to the wheels that do have traction? Seems like the latter approach makes more sense.
I know the two cars I'm now considering aren't usually compared, for reasons of size and style, but guess these odd-ball comparisons just serve to make life interesting for the car salesmen!
"GO FOR THE 300M"
Good Luck!!!!
I don't trust the Chrysler's reliability. And for me, reliability is one of the top considerations. I personally wouldn't shell out money for a car with bad reliability history. Warranty or no warranty, car trouble could only be bad.
Of course, that's just me. I'm your typical "everyday people". For me, reliability is #1, driving comfort is #2, and anything else is a distant 3rd.
Of course, the 300M has it's own strength. And the fact people do buy them is a testment to the different priority of each individual. The most anyone else could say to you is -- buy what you think is right for you.
U.S. carmakers are going after the relatively affluent, younger market who used to buy imports exclusively. I pretty much fit that demographic - up till the Jeep, had owned only Nissans or Toyotas for more than 20 years, and had assumed, based on on-line research, that at this point in my car buying process I would be deciding between the Camry XLE, the Infiniti or the Passat. (Hated the Avalon, by the way.) Now Chrysler, with the 300M, and Olds with the Aurora are gunning for us. Will they succeed? I haven't yet plunked down my money because I do share that reliability concern, enough to perhaps lease rather than buy outright, but it might be worth taking a chance.
And patriotism does, in a small way, entire into it. If an American car maker builds something that suits my needs, has demonstrated improved reliability, has an acceptable price - well, I'd like to keep my money at home if the total package makes sense. This is the first time in more than two decades that I've even felt it was a possibility.
Plunking down a sizeable chunk of money for a car is never going to be an easy decision. Like I said, buy what you think is right for you. I wish you best of luck.
Re reliability, granted it would be a hassle if anything happened on a trip. However, Chrysler dealers are relatively easy to find if repairs are needed. What if an Infiniti or VW broke down on a trip? Those dealers can be few and far between, especially away from the coasts.
The '92 Camry LE that I had, much as I liked it, was also not free of problems. One rear light kept burning out (I found out much later, after we had sold the car, that there was a TSB on that), but more seriously, the brake line actually split while I was driving home from work one day. I managed to get home ok with only a bit of braking power (just a mile or so of driving). The next morning ALL of the remaining brake fluid was all over the garage floor. We had the car towed to get it fixed. No one ever figured out why it happened. I think it was just a flukey thing, but proved that even a car noted for reliability can still have something serious go wrong.
We will be visiting the Chrysler dealer tomorrow for another test drive, and yes-or-no decision. Interestingly, the only Toyota dealer in town is having a big tent sale starting tomorrow. Could be an interesting day.
I was not bowled over by Passat's features, and found the seats rock-hard and uncomfortable. For many people, however, the Passat is the one to beat right now, so clearly public perception of VW quality is changing. It was not long ago that if you had said people would pay 30k for a VW product you would have been laughed out of the room. I think the same thing will happen for American cars, and Chrysler in particular is showing imaginative design with the 300 at one end and the PT Cruiser at the other.
Every car that we have tested until now (Aurora, Passat, Intrigue, Volvo s70, Camry XLE, Infiniti, 300M) has had something that we could find fault with. The two we liked best, overall, were the Camry and the 300. My head says buy Camry, heart says go with the 300. If we do, I suspect we'll hedge our bets by going with a lease. If it turns out to be a bad bet, we will most likely return to the Toyota/Nissan fold.
Anyway, some sort of decision will likely be made today.
The knock against Camrys and Accords is that they're "bland and boring," who cares if they're reliable. (I do, for one.) The whole Maxima vs. Passat forum is basically Maxima guys saying "my car is a proven performer that will hold up well, and VW has a terrible reliability problem," and the Passat-ers retorting "But it's S-o-o ugly, my car's a beaut with great handling and who cares if there are a few minor 'issues.'"
Styling is a big part of what sways people to buy one car over another, and is the 300's strong point against some of its competitors (including, on my personal list, the XLE.)
(If you gather from this post that I still don't know what I'm going to buy, you are so right!)
Accord and Camry sell because they have certain qualities that cater to a vast majority of buyers, and they easily find 800,000 of them each year. Styling has a delicate balance to it. It could offend a lot of people and please some others. Conservative styling takes the middle ground, hence extracting buyers from both sides, who would not mind sharing 3-4 identical cars at every stop light. As far as their "boring" image goes, it has more to do with the same set of criteria. Accord already loses a bunch of buyers due to its stiffer ride to Camry, and vice versa. If Camry was made as 'sportier' as Passat, you can bet that the sales will drop to less than half of what it does now. And if Accord was made cushier, it would also get hurt. The only option that remains is to bring another version of the car that is sportier, but it is not always feasible. Honda could always bring Accord Type-R from Europe, but that would be to sell about 15K cars, no more. And people do care about them being less prone to seeing a junkyard with less than 150K miles on the odometer. Hence reliability sells. Its all about balance. To displease some, but be preferred by the majority. A trade off actually.
On PT Cruiser I read that it has hurt loyalty of Ford, GM and Toyota customer to the maximum extent. Essentially, Chrysler has been able to attract more buyers outside of its own consumers, which is good news for them. What happens when the 'looks' fade away or these buyers experience any kind of lousy quality?
Invoice 18,701
Dest Chrg 440
Profit to Salesman 200
Document 50
Taxes 1115
Title 20
He would not budge on the holdback. Can anyone out there tell me if this is a reasonable deal?