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Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Volkswagen Passat

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Comments

  • wenyue,

    You said that more people buy the Camry because it fit the family's needs better than the Accord. I was merely pointing out that the Camry 4-door is lagging in sales compared to the Accord 4-door. The Solara, which I don't consider a family car, outsells the Accord coupe, probably by a 2 to 1 margain. It's a simple mathematical data, without Solara and Accord coupe, Camry would be #2 in sales.

    The fact is that Toyota has more models than Honda. It would be as unfair as comparing GM to Toyota, just look at how many models GM has. You said in the past that Accord had an unfair advantage because it had an Accord coupe, while Camry did not. Anyways, Honda is far from being stagnant, it sold over 1 million in America for the first time last year. And it has several models which command over MSRP. Toyota lacks any model that even comes close to the popularity of Odyssey and S2000.

    Toyota isn't exactly as successful as you may think. Several of its models lag behind Honda's. Civic regularly outsells Corolla; CR-V outsells RAV-4; and Odyssey outsells Sienna. Landcruiser sales lag behind Explorer's; Tundra is no where near the popularity of Ford and Chevy.

    Honda's growing in popularity in Europe too. I heard that sales have grown approx. 17% compared to last year. Honda is a global company with success to match any other. It's just a matter of time that it will overtake Toyota as the most successful Japanese company.

    It's possible that if ES300 didn't exist, sales of Camry may increase. But it's less likely due to the significant price difference. The top of the line Camry V6 and ES300 w/ premium pkg is almost $9K. The difference between Accord V6 and 3.2TL is only about $3K. Do the math.

    Yes, Camry would have a much higher resale value if everyone can buy it new for $15,700. But alas, only several can get this deal. But on the average, Accord has the leg up on Camry in resale value. I can vouch for this beccause I got over $15K for my '98 Accord LX. Used, certified, '98 Camry LE are regularly advertised at $12,800. Last time, they had 4 at that price. They also included the full VIN#, just in case you shout bloody murder.
  • Yes, Toyota's revenues are twice that of Honda, $100 Billion vs $50 Billion US last fiscal year. But when you look at net income, Honda made $2.5 Billion vs Toyota's $3 Billion.

    So while Toyota is a giant, its a slow ponderous one compared to nimble and efficient Honda.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Toyota net income last year: 356.1 billion yen
    Honda net income last year: 260.6 billion yen.

    That's $1 billion dollar difference in income!

    Toyota is slow and ponderous? If being a small company is a good thing, then why are all the annalyists predicing there will only be 5 largest automakers left by 2005? Because, being small means less profit, and being eaten by bigger fish.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Yes, honda has fleet sale operation. It's smaller than toyota's. Neither company has dedicated fleet sales department (so it's up the individual dealer). Both discourage fleet sales in general, but neither prohibits it.
  • wenyue,

    That's 1 billion YEN, not DOLLARS. It's probably about $500 Million Dollars after the converstion rate.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    No, that's 100 billion yen. Translate into $1 billion dollars.

    And wait, I have another message coming up.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Accord sedan out selling Camry sedan? yeah, right. You haven't forgotten how Camry sedan single handedly outsold Accord Sedan + coupe last year did you? Oh, and the Camry Solara is not out selling Accord Coupe 2:1 even though it's more popular. Toyota is making 60,000 Solaras a year (80,000 with stretching), Accord coupe is selling by roughly the same number. So when removeing both Accord coupe and camry coupe. Camry sedan would still win #1 spot.

    Toyota does have more product, and honda has less. But who's fault is that? Honda just doesn't have the resources to put up that many products. So Honda is finally selling over 1 million vehicles in U.S. for the first time. What took them so long? Toyota BUILDS more vehicles in U.S than Honda SELLS here. And what Toyota builds here can't even supply 70% of the Toyota's sales in U.S. It really sucks to be just 1/2 the size of the competitor doesn't it? :)

    And here is information and few correction for ya. Corolla out sells Civic world wide, not to mention that Toyota also builds the equivalent Chevy Prizm for GM to sell. CR-V does out sell RAV4, you got something right. But wrong on Odyssey out selling Sienna. Sienna sold 66,441 in first 10 months. Odyssey sold 56,530 in the same period. Again, honda's can't support the market.

    Also Honda is NOT growing in Europe. For the first quarter of the 2000 fiscal year (ends in June 30, 1999). Honda's sale in Europe is DOWN! From 68,000 to 56,000 units. That's staggering DECREASE of 17.6%. Perhaps you mistook honda's falling sales for increase sales.

    Toyota, during the mean time, latest figure I have (for 1999 fiscale year), indicating a 14% GAIN in sales, now selling over 500,000 units in Euorpe.

    So let's see, Honda down 11% in Japan, 17.6% in Europe, up 7.1% in U.S. Toyota up 0.8% in Japan, up 14% in Europe, up 10.7% in U.S. Need I say more? You think it's only a matter of time Honda will over take Toyota? Ha, not at this rate. :) And don't forget, for each 1% Toyota growth in U.S, Honda has got 1.5% just to match.

    As for TL vs ES300's affect on their lesser brethen's sales. I know my math. Don't forget, the market price for TL and ES300 isn't that big. That's why they will have relatively the same effect in increasing the Accord's and Camry sales if they were removed. Again, Honda, being smaller, is lacking the resources to harvest the market's potenitals.

    Toyota is more successful than Honda, but still can't stand toe to toe with Ford or GM. After all, while all japanese industrial and population centers were being firebombed and nuked during second world war, Ford and GM were growing to unreal proportions on government war contracts. With a 40 year head start and all the extra money, it's not suprising how those 2 are the biggest by far. After all, this nation is the sole superpower left, and rightfully so! But for Honda and Toyota, and all the other japanese, who has to pull themselves out of the ashes, Toyota turned out to be the bigger (if not the biggest) success.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Oh, i thought I already did the math on the Camry resale. In your area, when brand new camry could be bought for $15,700, finding a used 98 Camry with 26,000 miles on it for $12,800 is consistant with the high Camry resale.

    Where camry can't be bought at $15,700 when brand new, the resale price of a used 98 Camry will also correspondingly be higher, in keep with it's low depreciation rate.

    Accord most of the time is few hunded dollars higher in resale. That miniscule difference is hardly what I call "a leg up". The population doesn't seem to even notice such a small difference in an expensive used car, as you can see, Camry is still more popular than the the Accord. :)
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    in my post #179,

    the line should go "And don't forget, for each 1% Toyota growth in U.S,
    Honda has got to get 1.5% just to match."
  • If your definition of fleet means leasing, then you could say that Honda has fleet vehicles. But when I say fleet I am referring to GE Capital etc. (they lease cars for business employee's) and all rental agencies. The cars that end up in these fleet units and rental agencies are in almost all cases abused by the driver. When these beat-up vehicles hit the used car lots they will have lots of problems and thus drive down the overall resale value of the car. That's why Honda does not lend itself to fleet sales, but Toyota obviously does.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    My definition of fleet sales is exactly the same as yours. Honda does have fleet sale. Only reason you don't know is because they are smaller in scale. Just like it's already hard to find a camry to rent, it's even harder to find an Accord for rent. But they do exist.

    I was on my honeymoon at end of Augest and early september. We when to the beautiful island of Maui, Hawaii. Renting a Honda isn't hard over there. Maybe Honda fleet sales is most concentrated in tourist area, where people are willing to pay higher prices for little more quality in just about anything. That maybe what's making rental agencies that rent imports such as HOnda and Toyota possible. Other wise, it just doesn't make sense to use expensive Honda and TOyota when they could rent cheap Taurus.
    Here is an example of Honda rentals, if you are interested, www.cainrent.com/rates.html
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Some of the HOnda dealers even advertise their fleet sales on the internet. Just to prove beyond a doubt that honda does fleet sales, here is couple other sites you might be willing to visit.

    www.hondaofspokane.com/fleet.asp
    www.hondacity.com/fleet.htm
  • Check the latest annual reports.

    FY98-99 Toyota
    Revenues...12749 billion yen
    Net Income.356.2 billion yen

    FY 98-99 Honda
    REvenues....6231 billion yen
    Net Income.305.0 billion yen

    So while Toyota has twice as much revenue and sells twice as much cars, it only makes 17% more in profit.

    BTW Toyota has been making automobiles since before the WW2, and along with Nissan were the only companies allowed to build automobiles in Japan for decades after WW2. Honda was only founded in 1948 making motorized bikes and finally allowed to make autos in the 60s. That's why Toyota currently is a much larger company than Honda.

    Honda could grow faster, but it simply doesn't have the factory capacity at the moment to meed demand

    And who cares if Honda is not in the top 5 in size for car companies when it is #5 in terms of net income and easily the most efficient. I believe the 90s have taught the world (and Japan in particular) the lesson that growth in earnings is more important than growth in revenues.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    dragon88

    Your data must be unconsolidated data. The data I posted was from Toyota and Honda's annual report. your data is in error.

    Net income, Toyota made $1 billion over Honda last year. Thank you very much.

    As for Toyota's head start. Unfortunatly the entire operation was destroyed during the war. By the end of war, the term Japanese Industry was an oxymoron. There was nothing left, every city medium and large was bombed out, U.S was running out of targets by 1945.

    Toyota was a loom factory. They were in the spinning and weaving business. The single model (and the first model) was from 1937. And their operation was completely obliterated during the war by American bombing. So there goes any progress. Back to start.

    So at 1946, when McArthur is reforming the Japanese economy, everyone had an equal start from the scratch.

    Toyota decided to jump into making cars. Honda decided to make motor cycles. That's bad choice on Honda's part. They think they could match profit with Toyota by making Motorcyles. Well, after a while, they realized that's not happening, so they switched gear into building car. So they choose the wrong way in the very beginning.

    That's why Toyota is a much larger company. They had vision, and made correct decision all along the way and never really side-tracked.

    And if profit is so important, then Toyota is winning all the way.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Do you honestly think that size, and being on top 5 matters? I suppose all those annalysits don't know what they are talking about?

    It's simple to see why size matters. The market is going global. And those who are big enough and has enough resoureces to support a global market will rake in the benefit and profit. THose who can not will become bought out or become some big commpany's supplier. Don't take my word for it. Take the words from those wallstreet experts.

    Honda is having a hard time as it is trying to support the u.s market already. It's earning growth in the U.S by sacrificing sales in Japan and Europe. That suits Toyota just fine. Not only is Toyota out pacing Honda in America, with Nissan and Honda loosing sales, Toyota has also moved to fill the void in Japan, and now control more than 40% of the market there.

    And the increase in sales means immediate profit, it will translation to long term pay off (effects of customer retention, and word-of-mouth advertising).

    That's why size matters. Because larger size allow you to leaverage more weight, more resource, more security, support global economy, and the ability to crush smaller competitors in a overall strategy.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Just a correction on your numbers.

    The number you report is the combined income of
    the Honda motor corp. The result you posted is not
    only automobil sale, but a combination income of
    (1) automobile sale (2) motorcycle sale (3) power
    tool sale.

    You see, that represent the entire earning of 3
    branches, not just automotive earning. If you take
    out the other 2 branch, the earning form Honda's
    automobile operation is ALOT less than Toyota's.

    Toyota Motor corp, on the other hand, is JUST 1 of
    the many branches of the giant TOYOTA GROUP! Toyota
    motor corp is only in charge of Toyota's automobile
    operation. So you were trying to compair Honda's
    car, bike, and power tool earnings to just Toyota's
    car earning alone.

    Toyota as a whole, consists of many other branches other than
    the Motor corp. And most of them are NOT called
    TOYOTA. Here are few examples: (1) Toyota Fiance
    Corp, obvioiusly incharge of finance operations,
    (2) Toyota Industrial Equipment Mfg., Inc, making
    heavy industry equipment, (3) MTA INCORPORATED,
    high tech, (4) Teleway Japan Corp.
    telecommuncation, (5) Nippon Idou Tsushin Corp,
    cellphone, (6)Aero Asahi Corporation, aerospace
    (7)Toyota System International, business software
    engineering, (8) Himawari Network Inc, cable TV.
    (9) Satellite Positioning Information Service, Ltd.
    provide satellite related navigation information.
    (10) Nagasaki Sunset Marina Co., Ltd, resort
    related business (11) Toyota Mizunami Development
    Co., Ltd., operate gulf courses, ....

    That's just a small list, there are many more that
    I just don't want to waste time listing (there are
    over 300 business venture that Toyota own or has
    partial ownership of).

    So if you want a comparision between what the two companies makes on the car alone, then you will have to remove the Honda's sales on motorcyle and powertool. Which mean, the difference between Toyota's car earning and Honda's earning will be a lot bigger than what you originally calculated as 17%.
  • The ongoing Honda vs Toyota discussion reminds me of the arguments my girlfriend and I got into over Fords & Chevy's when we were 10 yrs old. By the way, I was broadsided on a highway last week in my newer 99 Camry. No side airbags, but I was treated and released even though the insurance company totaled my car. My next car? Another Camry of course!
  • The link you pointed out that rents Honda are privately held car rental agencies. These are not National Rental Agencies, such as Avis, which rents Toyota.
  • dave68dave68 Posts: 16
    Does it really make a difference who sells the most cars? I've owned a 94 Accord and a 96 Camry. They are both very reliable vehicles and similar in many ways. In my opinion they are very boring cars when it comes to styling and performance. If you want nothing more from your car than to get you from point A to point B (and for many people this is all they want) either car will be a good choice.

    I've gotten to the point where I don't want to see a dozen cars exactly like mine on the way to work every day. I recently purchased a 2000 Passat. This car actually makes driving fun. Two years ago I would never have even gone to look at a Volkswagen, but after reading many excellent reviews on the Passat I decided to take a test drive. It feels much more solid than both Camry and the Accord. The only car in the class that I thought came close was the new Nissan Maxima.
  • Yeah, I agree with the previous post. Who cares who is number one in sales. Ford sells more F-series pickups than the Accord and Camry combined. Count in all Ford vehicles, and Honda and Toyota look like small time players in the industry. I guess that makes Ford superior by far.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Ford's F-series IS superior by far.

    Nothing toyota or honda has can come close to the F-series, except the newly released Toyota Tundra.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    What's wit your story change? You first said that Honda doesn't do fleet sales. Now I have provent beyond a doubt that Honda DOES have sell cars to rental fleet, you changed your story to "they don't sell to larg rental agency like Avis". Honda sells to rental fleet, and that's that.

    And here is a bit of news. Avis DOES purchase a large number of Honda's for their fleet rental. Both Honda civic and Honda accord are the major constituant of AVIS rental in locations such as Hong Kong, Thailand, and Saudi Arabia. In fact, Honda constitute much of AVIS's fleet in many Asia and Mid-eastern countries. Same is the case for Avis's Toyota rental, it's only noticable when outside of U.S.

    http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/ap/p-hk-fleet.html
    http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/eme/m-sa-fleet.html

    Interestingly, Avis did not list Honda Accord or Toyota camry as their North America fleet.

    http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/usa_can/u-us-fleet.html
    http://www.avis.com/the_fleet/usa_can/c-ca-fleet.html

    I guess, neither of these cars are a significant part of it's fleet here.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Wenyue,
    Although I'd not like to extend this "top sales" debate, but I've rented Accords in UK, never got a chance to see one sitting in a rental fleet here in the USA. Actually, Hertz rents more Camrys these days.
  • dave68dave68 Posts: 16
    Because one company sells more of a product than anyone else does not mean that the product is superior. McDonalds sells more hamburgers than any company in the world. Does this mean that they are the best hamburgers in the world? Most people would agree that they are not.

    The fact of the matter is that the best mid-size sedan for me might not be the best mid-size sedan for someone else. The three vehicles discussed in this topic are all good vehicles in their own way. Rather than trying to declare a "winner" from an irrelevent statistic, lets discuss the positive and negative attributes of each vehicle.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    I check Hertz website, they didn't list Camry. Ford Taurus is their midsize car, and it's almost the same at all their locations all over the world. I guess neither camry and accord is really on their menu. After all, why buy a fleet of expensive camry and accord when you can buy a larger fleet of taurus for much less? If there are any imports in their fleet, it must be insignificant part of their fleet, since they don't even list it.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    There is a difference between being better, than being most popular.

    They are not equal. But can often be related.

    I never said Camry is the best car. Just given that all consumer's decisions are equally valid. The Camry looks pretty damned good.
  • yeah, the number for accords sold each year, statistically.

    But do you know how many of them are being
    re- bought just because of theft of this vehicle?

    don't you know that japanese cars have a higher rate for thieves to steal, not because they are good car but because the parts of the car are expensive, which means it is more expensive to repair a japanese car.

    example
    sold 400,000
    stolen: ???
    how many are being stolen and re-bought?

    haha
  • Hi, i am new to this message board.

    After doing research on family cars and listening to all of you, I find it's quite interesting that some of the postings here represent opinions not facts.

    What do I mean?

    Let'ssy... "The leather is luxurious and nice looking" and "the ride is quick and smooth"

    This are subjective opinions but not facts.
    What type of leather is that? don't know? perhaps it's the high end version of vinally-leather?

    So how quick is your car? (sorry we cannot count smooth)? 0-60mph: 7.8 seconds for accord and 7.9 for camry, am i wrong?

    P.S. Look at the Motortrend this month. It shows 8.0 for accord and 8.1 for camry.
  • So once again, japanese are not for quality.

    I have proofs to say that:

    Where is the top quality auto plant in the world? Not only, America?

    1) and 2) are tied. One is in Japan, forget the name, but i remember it is a toyota (anyone please corect me if i am wrong) and the other one is the buick city in U.S. (correct me if i am wrong, too)

    all these are from the JD power&associates

    so where quality for U.S. built-japanese cars come from? (YOur "JANPANESE" cars are built in U.S."), quality rating? haha, you go find out yourself.

    Can anyone say there are no major recalls for you accords and camrys?

    all below information comes for NHTSA
    Accords: Auto transmission bolt
    and other minor recalls

    Camrys: Ignition Key removal (imagine you can take you key out in highway!)
    and some minor recalls as well.

    Problems for both Accord and Camry:

    Emission problems
    Honda has already paid the penalty rather "quietly" to the government and Toyota
    pays "loudly"
  • Honda Accord: No traction control is a shame
    in this price range;
    only 15" inch wheel tires for
    the sedan, which are way too small!
    cassette is not standard for EX-V6
    No power passenger seat
    fog lights OPTIONAL!!!

    Toyota Camry: Yeah, luckily there are 16" inch
    wheels this year, but how about
    the past?
    No automatic climate control
    fog lights OPTIONAL!!!
    Steeromg-mounted audio controls?
    quite expensive!!

    VW Passat: One sentence, way too expensive
    for the V6 Model!! The Passat is
    certainly not in the price range
    of Accord and Camry
    yeah, the passat 4-cylinder is
    quick ... with the manual only,
    not the auto, but who does not
    know that the manual is always
    quicker than an auto?
    (By the way, the stastics for
    manual transmission cannot be
    based on regular driving basis
    because when the car is "idle",
    the tester is alreay revving the
    engine to 4000 rpm+
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