High End Luxury Cars

ljflx · August 2005

Well I went over there and I couldn't find much of what you are talking about. One guy - legendman - seems to have a lemon and another guy doesn't think the ML stereo is worth it. I disagree about as much as it is possible to disagree with the latter person. Maybe in an RX it doesn't sound so good (I've never heard it in the RX) but in the GS, LS and LX it is awesome. As for the first guy he may have a bad car. I've driven the RX300 and RX330 at least 30-35 times since 1995. I always take it as a loaner. The 330 is a far superior vehicle to the 300 with a more luxurious cabin and ride and it is a lot quieter than the 300. The 330 (and the 300 beforehand) are both cars to me that have some height and AWD. This guy finds the opposite to be true and doesn't think its carlike at all plus he thinks its noisy. What Lexus is?? He owns it, I don't. But alas this is as popular vehicle as there is in my town and I don't know anyone who feels the way legendman does and my personal experience behind the wheel of the RX is as far removed from his as it gets. You'll hate hearing this but everyone I know loves this car and I got deals on one for five of these people over the years.

anthonyp · August 2005

Although I don`t quite fall into the paramaters of the age, I can speak to the Miami Florida people you may be refrencing....There are apack of them and I haven`t seen anyone all that old..I may be the oldest....The most popular everyday car is the bmw, all models, all around forty years old or younger...Most of the women are beautiful and drive around sixty in a thirty mph zone with extroadinary sports cars like Ferrari and the most popular Porsche....I just like to watch them go by, and my heart is with them...In fact it surprises me that so many people have so much money. I may be the poorest one also....As for the Mercedes S , they hold their own, just not as popular as the 7---probably as you point out. The area I am talkin about is Brickell ave..Now South Beach (SOBE) is a totally out of control are for any and every type of exotic car...In fact if you just walk around the `art deco` area you will see it all.....I have had Lexus for the last twelve thirteen years and they have all held up well, and retained a large percentage of their purchase price...I think I paid around thirty five thousand for the first one, but now alas all the prices have skyrocketed.....Imagine paying fifty thousand and then being really upset if the gas milage is twenty five instead of twenty eight....Man one good meal out sets you back a month and a half of fuel usage..but I degress Tony

lexusguy · August 2005

"Purely speculatively, if they offered a V10 for the price of a Lexus V8, it might draw some attention."

Right... but I dont see how thats possible. We're talking about a very limited volume engine designed for a supercar. That has got to cost more than the standard Lexus 4.6L V8. Additionally, where's the platform for this car going to come from? There's no way the standard Honda front midship platform can handle a full size luxury car. That means developing an all new platform for one car, which will push costs probably into the S500, 750Li range.

merc1 · August 2005

Infiniti sells the FWD I35 which is the equiv of the ES. I prefer it, less $$ and better performance. Just annoying torque steer.

Infiniti stopped selling the I35 a long time ago.

M

merc1 · August 2005

Let's get realistic. If they were all conquering you'd have an auto monopoly. As it is they account for more than 50% of US auto profits.

But that is how it comes across, week in and week out. Toyota and especially Lexus being just that, an all-conquering monopoly. I mean every new Lexus is just going to run over the competition and especially whatever MB has in the segment, yet when that doesn't happen we have to read about production issues and other things that Toyota is supposedly a master of. Toyota has more money than anyone so we really shouldn't have to read any excuses as to why Lexuses aren't the best selling cars in every class. Production is Toyota's game and they're the best at it so that doesn't wash.

M

mariner7 · August 2005

Toyota is a great company, and twice the size of Honda and Nissan. But is it greater than those two, BMW and MB? If size matters to you, then yes! But I happen to like a great underdog.

gxpgtodanman · August 2005

"Infiniti stopped selling the I35 a long time ago. "

My mistake. They actually stopped selling the I35 in 2004, not so long ago.

designman · August 2005

The brands that dont discount are Scion, Mini, and Porsche.

Yeah that Porsches policy but they have discounted heavily the past two years. Accordingly, their goal is to limit production to keep prices up and it has been somewhat successful with 997 and 987 with the help of new-model demand. You probably know this, but if you are going to get a Boxster S (I recall you mentioning this) I wouldnt be walking in with a check made out for MSRP. Ive heard of people getting $5K off list. And I would wait for the end of the year.

ctsang · August 2005

http://www.forbes.com/2005/07/01/cx_dl_0705featslide_15.html?thisSpeed=90000

lexusguy · August 2005

Interesting, I'll keep that in mind.

blckislandguy · August 2005

Thanks for the link. "Unreliable luxury cars" should be an oxymoron. Like "military music" or "political science" , it shouldn't compute.

While certainly not luxury cars, part of the appeal of an upscale, leather bedecked, Tahoe/Yukon/Explorer etc. must be the perception that its NOT high tech and not going to require an EE to fix. While not a fan of GM, I do think you could get 10 years/150,000 miles out of a Tahoe without being driven nuts by electrical gremlins.

lexusguy · August 2005

Nobody is interested in a leather bedecked Explorer. (See: Lincoln Aviator) People like the Escalade for... some reason.. but I dont think the Denalis are exactly on fire with sales (maybe with the employee pricing).

Just because a car is luxurious, it doesnt have to mean its automatically unreliable. Lexus has been proving that since 1990, Acura since '86 or somewhere around there. The MDX and RX330 are both extremely reliable, and luxurious. They arent burdened with the lousy handling of a body-on-frame truck, nor the lousy mpg of a monster OHV V8 required to pull said body-on-frame truck. GM is putting an awfully big bet on the fact that people will still be interested in these monsters 10 years from now. Ford is playing it smarter and greatly expanding their line of car based crossovers.

For the record, I turned in my '96 LS400 with 156,840 miles in 2001, not one electrical gremlin ever reared its head. Not one unscheduled service visit of any kind. Other than oil and fluid changes, the dealer replaced an oil seal at 90K and the rear shocks at 110K. That was it. My '01 LS430 now has over 90K on it, and so far its been just as bullet proof as the '96. I'm not the kind of Lexus zealot that will say Lexus will rule the world by 2010 and carve a giant L into the moon, but the unrivaled quality and reliability that Lexus is known for is the real deal.

lexusguy · August 2005

In a somewhat related note, I just saw a very old ad on TV for GMC products (the one with the smashed trucks landing in a field). I mention it because it specifically is advertising GM's "higher standard of ideas" such as the Envoy XUV, which was killed due to slow sales, and Quadrasteer, which was killed because nobody ordered it. Way to stay on top of things, guys.

michael_mattox · August 2005

KD

What Toyota did you buy...and why did you buy it...based on your message you would much rather have a German car??

michael_mattox · August 2005

Prius doesn't discount.

sv7887 · August 2005

Hi All,
It's funny to see the same things being discussed again. Despite Mercedes' problems, it still has a mystique that no other car maker has yet, save Rolls Royce. The MB is still something people aspire to and a brand that evokes an emotional response from its followers. I think their designs have only become attractive in the past few years. The outgoing S Class is a stunner, especially in the darker colors. Why did they have to mess around with such a nice design??

It's something Lexus needs to improve on. I am no fan of any Lexus car at the moment. The GS doesn't do it for me, and it seems pointless to put such an intruding Traction control system in a car designed to take on the 5 Series. Why not put an "off" button? I hope the same mistake is not made with the IS. Lexus cars normally sell well in the first 18 months, but then start to fade. I think it's still too early to call it a victory for Camp Lexus. The only reason I stay with the LS cars is simply because of the competition's quality issues at the moment. I'd like to see Lexus come out with the sort of designs that put them on the map in the first place like the original LS, ES, and SC. These were interesting cars that actually stirred some excitement in me. Let's see what Lexus does next..

SV

aggie76 · August 2005

Boy, do I have to agree with your comments. Have had my '04 LS430 for about 18 months now and had thought it was going to be a long-term affair but am finding my emotions stirred by other offerings after owning Lexus autos for almost 10 years now. The one compelling factor remains the quality of Lexus vs. the others in keeping me in the LS today and not jumping to another marque. The '07 intro the next generation LS is really what I have my heart set on but we do have to see what gets to the market.

Had a chance to look at Jag, MB, & Audi while shopping a Honda Odyssey Touring for my spouse and am impressed with the style of each one. Will attend a Drive & Ride event by a number of Luxury brands in a couple of weeks and am anxious to see several of these in action.

idele · August 2005

My history with Japanese cars: First a stick shift Honda Accord. Followed by a Toyata Camry and a Toyota Cressida. Both cars were revelations to me in quality and reliability. The Cressida especially. Lexus arrived and I started with an ES250 followed by three LS400's. ( I trade every two years). Intrigued by all-wheel drive I got an RX300 when it came out. I liked it but preferred a sedan and switched to an Audi A6 4.2 after two years. Lots of problems with that Audi: nothing disabling but lengthy time costing trips to dealer to get things repaired. The ride on the car was rough. I switched to an Allroad 2.7T which has air suspension giving a much better ride. That had no problems but when I recently traded it in at 17300 miles there were engine noises and vibration at speeds over 60 which, had I kept it, would have required warranty service. I decided to go hybrid and get an RX400h. The hybrid represents a paradigm shift and Lexus has produced, in my opinion,a winner. Being such a big change it's very hard for the public and even for many enthusiasts posting here to understand that car. The fuel consumption on the RX400h, by the way, ranges from 30 to 40 per cent better than the Audi Allroad 2.7T. I had seriously contemplated getting a BMW 5 or 7 series, but my previous experience with Lexus and their unique hybrid technology made me settle on the RX400h. However, I prefer sedans and expect to purchase a hybrid LS or GS in 2007.

lexusguy · August 2005

Unfortunately, they made the exact same mistake in the IS350. There is still no off switch for VDIM. Worse, according to Edmunds even the traction control comes back on on its own after something like 10mph.

My first experience with Lexus was a '94 SC400. When the "trac" button was hit it stayed off, and there was no stability system. With the pedal to the floor you could really fling the old SC around if you wanted to. They need to bring that back as well.

anthonyp · August 2005

I am on a similar track, but opter for the bmw station wagon over the h, simply because we have had lexus so long...Each of our lexus`s had one problem that was serious enough to be remembered....Wife`s last car was a Mercedes, which had only two small switch problems.....I have been messing around with the i drive and find it cumberson at first, but am making headway...Would sort of like to get a 7, but I`m not sure...I am sure I would get a lexus if it were introduced next winter, but they still say fall next....I was checking some mpg from european sources and remember they do thing in Imperial gallons, which is like a gallon and twentypercent more...That acccounts for part of the higher dollar per gallon charge, and also the really big mpg in a deasel Tony

oac · August 2005

Unfortunately, they made the exact same mistake in the IS350. There is still no off switch for VDIM...

LG: Edmund's review was on a PRE-production car. Have you read MPH and Automobile's new reviews.... They were glowing or the IS350...

idele · August 2005

One big difference I noticed is between the local Lexus and BMW dealers. They happen to be on adjacent lots where I live. Showroom and facilities of Lexus are spectacular. Those of BMW neat but standard plain. Salesman at Lexus was excellent. Salesman at BMW was good and knowledgable but spent a lot of time checking on the value of my Audi Allroad and mentioning that he had a customer for it. Salesman at Lexus was an F1 racing fan and discussed the performance of the GS300 detailing its cornering. Salesman at BMW when I mentioned a stock I had, checked the price on his computer, saw it was up that day, and turned to me and said "The rich get richer". I have a lot of respect for BMW and if I could buy one of those Japan only models with left hand drive, I probably would have done it
There is a lot of discussion of diesels. I have rented MB diesels in Germany and because of their fuel efficiency and the considerably lower cost of diesel fuel in Germany, my fuel costs per mile there were in line with premium fuel in the USA. But diesels pollute badly and that's why they are banned in California and about ten other states. The hybrids are not just fuel efficient but also meet super low emmission standards. There are diesel hybrids. Fedex has tested 16 diesel-electric hybrid delivery trucks with great success. And in Japan hybrid trucks are not very rare. The real next step is replacing the ICE in hybrids with fuel cells. I conjecture that Toyota/Lexus is leading in bringing this technology to production. For example, GM's President, Wagoner went to Toyota in Japan to cut a sharing agreement and from the newspaper reports has been rebuffed. Getting back to the question of diesels, from what I can discern from articles and web postings, BMW and Toyota both excel in diesel engines.

lexusguy · August 2005

"Clean diesel" 50 state spec that was originally excluded from the new energy bill in regards to tax breaks was lobbied in. The new US spec for diesels is much tougher than European standards, so diesel pollution shouldnt be a major issue anymore. Unfortunately Detroit also lobbied to not change the standard '70s era EPA mpg test methods. This means that there will still be plenty of people angry about why their hybrids arent getting EPA numbers (answer: the EPA tests cars driving like an 80 year old grandmother and doesnt use A\C)

idele · August 2005

I'd love to get a diesel hybrid especially if made by Toyota/Lexus or BMW. I would never buy one from the other manufacturers,. But it has to be a hybrid. They are so superior in performance that I would never again buy a non-hybrid. I find all the harping on gas mileage just dumb.

ljflx · August 2005

Sunday's NY Times has a couple of good stories on Porsche but they can't be linked in until tomorrow. In the smaller (addendum) story it briefly addresses the 4 door Panamera and notes that even Ferrari may build a 4 door sedan. The story also notes that the Porsche purist hated Cayenne easily outsold the whole sportscar line last year. But one funny comment was made by George Petersen, President of AutoPacific group. It addresses the business side vs. the purist side that we always clash about on this forum. The quote as follows:

"From a business standpoint Porsche's bottom line is certainly healthier than if they had listened to their purists - many who may be lunatic-fringe car crazies or gold-chain poseurs - and limited their lineup to sports cars."

He's actually being kind as Porsche almost went bankrupt with just sportscars when the demand for sportscars fell in the early 90's.

blckislandguy · August 2005

SV,

Like you "I am no fan of any Lexus car .." but I can't agree with you on the extent of the MB mystique. The market has spoken clearly: the resale is poor. Speaking of resale, resale may be a better measure than new sales of brand cache. The buyers are usually buyers, not leasors (leesees?), they may be younger and more "with it", and they are spending post tax money. The government/company isn't picking up a lot of the tab.

BMW for all their well discussed problems seems to be the rising high end brand these days.

ljflx · August 2005

If that is true - and its an excellent point - than MB's mystique is becoming tied into AMG rather than its bread and butter cars. It also does speak volumes about BMW and Lexus. To me the real MB mystique was the real high resale values the cars historically held - heads and shoulders above everyone. That was attributed to quality and is what always made you desire to own an MB in the first place. The past couple of years commercials making you think you should own one because some star owns one is a lot of baloney and insulting to potential buyers as far as I am concerned.

syswei · August 2005

http://asklexus.caranddriver.com/

cornellpinoy · August 2005

Which event will you be attending?

aggie76 · August 2005

Lujack's in Davenport has a Ride and Drive event by invitation.

oac · August 2005

BMW for all their well discussed problems seems to be the rising high end brand these days.

How so ? The rationale you provided earlier was based on YOUR personal observation of owners and demographics of MB, Grand Marquis, and BMW in your neck of the woods. By age, the LS and S-class owners are older than BMW, but that says nothing about which car is the rising high end, according to your statement above. There is old and new money awash in the US these days. Many people can *afford* much higher end cars than in the past. Thanks to the choices out there today, MB is no longer the car to drive for high-end lux car buyers. I don't see how the 7-series wins cos its style is so polarizing, and saddled with the i-Drive, its just not winning that many converts, imo. If Lexus can modernize its style, it will drive a huge nail through the MB/BMW market.... seeing that the new S may not set its sales on fire. Let's just hope that Lexus doesn't screw up the next LS460 and its many variants.... And then we'll see how BMW, MB and Lexus dukes it out in years to come...

syswei · August 2005

The German crowd is always pointing out that Lexus sales are dependent on SUVs and that they don't fare as well with cars. All true (though why SUVs shouldn't count is something I don't understand). But Lexus is starting to catch up in cars, despite offering far fewer variants.

Lexus 2005YTD non-SUVs 81,849....2004YTD 79,630....+2.8% for 2005

MB 2005YTD non-SUVs 100,881....2004YTD 106,762....-5.5% for 2005

BMW 2005YTD non-SUVs 107,152....2004YTD 111,580....-4.0% for 2005

We'll see what happens over the next few years...everyone has new models coming. Hybrids should help out Lexus. But maybe MB will improve on the reliability front.

ljflx · August 2005

The IS is going to be a real hot car. I wouldn't be surprised to see Lexus move 45-50K of them vs. the 10-15K they moved in the past 12 months. If that happens look at the effect on the numbers. The GS will stay a strong seller because of its variants in the near future and then you have redesigned and more variant LS and ES cars in the works plus next gen hybrids which the LS will go right to. So Lexus strategy is turning back to cars and they may end up very close or over the top there as well in the next few years. The RX looks like it may top 100K sales on its own this year the way its going. Those high resale values are also a big draw these days.

oac · August 2005

Interesting sales numbers....Maybe a sign of things to come ?

But looking at facts on the ground today, Lexus is definitely turning back to cars. All of the new entrants for the next 2 years will all be cars.... GS300/430/450H (MY2006/07); IS250/350 (MY2006); LS460 (MY2007); GS350/460 (MY2007/08)... I don't see how Lexus won't catch MB and maybe even BMW in car sales by MY2008.

lexusguy · August 2005

Lexus also has plans to expand the IS line with a convertible, though apparently they are still debating soft top vs. hard top. If they decide to go with a soft top, I think a coupe version could be possible. That would be a sort of spiritual successor to the SC300 coupe. IS460 and LS600h sales will probably be small, but they will help bring up the total a bit higher. Also, the SC430 just got its refresh, for '06, which means a totally redesigned version should hit by '08 or '09.

ljflx · August 2005

I don't think LS600H sales will be small at all. It will be a $75K car (give or take a few thou), priced just above the current LS430 ultra. In fact I'm anticipating a pretty large annd long waitlist for the car. The real niche small seller will be the 2008/9 V12 they are coming out with as that will be its $100-105K car and probably will only be a 1500 unit annual seller..

ljflx · August 2005

Links to the stories I noted yesterday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/automobiles/07auto.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/automobiles/07porsche.html?

merc1 · August 2005

After reading through all the usual doom and gloom about Mercedes, which has become the norm here.......I spotted this very interesting statement:

Thanks to the choices out there today, MB is no longer the car to drive for high-end lux car buyers. I don't see how the 7-series wins cos its style is so polarizing, and saddled with the i-Drive, its just not winning that many converts, imo.

Really? Mercedes isn't the car for high end lux car buyers? Based on what? If Mercedes isn't then who is? It certainly isn't Lexus. Lexus barely has one car that is truly in high-end territory, a fully loaded LS430. While Mercedes on the other hand has at least a dozen cars that cost and sell for more than any Lexus. From 70-100K nobody else sells more cars than Mercedes does. Are there other choices for ever higher-end buyers? Of course, and they've always been there, and they aren't new choices either. Mercedes was never the only choice for high end buyer which is what you seem to imply, they are just the most popular one between that bracket where most brands like Lexus, Infiniti, Audi etc. fall off (70-75K) and where the truly "high-end" and exclusive players start, which is somwhere between 100-150K and way beyond, again depending on which brand you're talking about. For luxury cars between those prices points Mercedes is it, by far no one else is even close to their numbers in that segment, BMW is a distant second. Bentley, Ferrari, Aston-Martin, Porsche, Lamborghini and others, all of which except certain Porsches sells for much higher prices than most Mercedes. The only one of these brands that truly lowered itself into Mercedes' price territory was Bentley, which has become very popular around the 160K price point for a Continental GT, and 160K is right at Mercedes upper price limit give or take 3 very rare MB models.

"seeing that the new S may not set its sales on fire"

Big IYO statement. How is it possible to know anything about the sales of car that hasn't even been launched yet? Just because you don't like the car doesn't mean it isn't going to sale.

Mercedes is still #1 in clout, prestige, whatever you want to call it when it comes to the mainstream luxury brands. Only brands like Ferrari, Bentley, etc. sit any higher. Everything isn't judged by surveys, obviously because MB would have been finished long time ago if everyone adopted the one-track thinking present on the boards here.

BMW's 7-Series isn't winning over any converts? Converts from where? Exactly who is BMW supposed to be converting? I saw no mention of winning over any converts during the launch of the 7-Series. They certainly aren't out to win over anyone who's idea of the perfect luxury car is a numbing Lexus. You're forgetting, this is BMW we're talking about here, not Lexus. Lexus is the one with the converting to do with both the GS and IS, by pumping some life and excitement into a dull brand, not the other way around. Lexus states that BMW is the target every chance they get so saying BMW isn't winning over any converts really doesn't make any sense to me.

The really funny thing is that for all the negative remarks about the 2002+ 7-Series (both here and in the press) it has gone on to become the best selling 7-Series all time.

You're right if Lexus ever gets a clue about styling, they'll be even more competitive, but at the same time if Mercedes can fix their reliablity the same will hold true for MB because they're styling is as about as far ahead of Lexus' as Lexus' reliabilty is Mercedes' reliability.

M

anthonyp · August 2005

Do you know just what mecedes and bmw reliability problems have been? After trading the Mercedes for a bmw stationwagon, and as I previously told you--the Mercedes clk was trouble free except for one window switch one time, --I sort of think the Mercedes problems are a little overblown....Our experience at the dealership is not terrible, but a far cry from Lexus...So far the bmw has had no problems...The i drive is a challenge, but getting more intuitive so all is well so far....I find the really big difference is the prices..They are really much more expensive than what I would think...The bmw is not very far from the Lexus ultra, so I think that is really what turns most people off , and sort of angers them the most...Tony

blckislandguy · August 2005

Tony,

Let me see if I can follow this. Your BMW has had no problems, you are OK with the i Drive, but after buying the BMW wagon you realized that its price is "not very far from the Lexus ultra, so I think that is what really turns most people off.."

Hello, did you ever look at the Moroney before you bought the car?

oac · August 2005

After reading through all the usual doom and gloom about Mercedes, which has become the norm here...

Trouble is I certainly didn't say anything ontowards about MB in my post. I was talking about BMW, but maybe you see MB in everything....

.... Mercedes isn't the car for high end lux car buyers? Based on what? If Mercedes isn't then who is? It certainly isn't Lexus....

Talking about MB, it is a highly prestigious brand, no doubt, but what I was saying is that buyers today have more choices when buying high end lux cars than in the past, say decades ago. And the increased wealth in the US certainly provides the fodder for many to afford all sorts of luxury cars. WIth Audi, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, VW, etc... MB can no longer dominate the lux space as int he past. And if MB doesn't fix its problems - real and perceived - then it will further have its market share eroded by the likes of BMW, Lexus, Audi, etc..

I do not like the new S design. I prefer the current design, and think it is a far more stately and beautiful design than the MY'07 style. This is imo. And I infer that judging from the way MB sales have been these past few years, a new S style which IMO is a step backwards (to the Maybach) rather than revolutionary may not help its sales that much. OTOH, the next LS will certainly be better styled than current, and looking at the trajectory of its sales these past few years, it portends even higher sales at the expense of its biggest competitor - MB.

merc1 · August 2005

Do you know just what mecedes and bmw reliability problems have been? After trading the Mercedes for a bmw stationwagon, and as I previously told you--the Mercedes clk was trouble free except for one window switch one time, --I sort of think the Mercedes problems are a little overblown....

Overall it has been electronics and the intergration of it. BMW and Mercedes both introduced a lot of things over the last 4-5 years and some of these features weren't up to snuff for joe customer to start using them. Comand for Mercedes and Idrive for BMW, both have been headaches. I'm not sure about BMW, but Mercedes changed suppliers back in 2003, from Bosch to Alpine, even though the head-unit looks the same. I haven't seen any more about Comand since they made that change. Mercedes' doing worse than BMW has to do with e-brakes on one of their biggest sellers, the E-Class. I think that on these surveys, the actual complaints about feel is what is doing so much damage, not just an actual malfunction. These brakes have been recalled several times for fixes and they don't seem to be a problem on the nearly identical underneath CLS. The SL is a small volume car so you won't hear to much about it, but the E is where the work needs to be done and has been for the most part. There was a volt-meter problem on certain MB models too, and MB recalled these before it because a widespread issue.

M

merc1 · August 2005

Talking about MB, it is a highly prestigious brand, no doubt, but what I was saying is that buyers today have more choices when buying high end lux cars than in the past, say decades ago. And the increased wealth in the US certainly provides the fodder for many to afford all sorts of luxury cars. WIth Audi, BMW, Lexus, Infiniti, VW, etc... MB can no longer dominate the lux space as int he past.

Decades ago? Whats the point? This is common knowledge that from decades ago that MB isn't the only choice in town, they never were, only the most popular one for the high end buyer, which was the point of your original post. Lexus wasn't even around "decades ago"? MB is still the most prestigious out of the mainstream luxury brands either way you want to word it. BMW and Audi have always been around so I really don't get what you're trying to say here, and Mercedes has held prestige over them every since. BMW can't sell anything past the 7-Series in price and they've tried twice in the last 15 years with the Z8 and 850i, both came up short. You say that Mercedes can no longer dominate the luxury space? Then who does? Or we need to determine what is the luxury space? Is it 30K on up or it where the real luxury cars are, imo somewhere around 60K and up. Between that point of where the mid-size luxury cars taper off, around 60K or so to somewhere over 100K Mercedes is dominant. Audi and Infiniti have big time trouble selling anything over 60K, especially Infiniti. Lexus has but one sedan and a coupe that sell for over 60K, and the SC430 doesn't break 70K like the LS430 does. BMW does a lot better above that point and Mercedes is the clear leader there so I don't see any basis for your point, it seems like reaching for something that simply isn't there, at least right now.

For the high-end buyer some type of Mercedes is still "the car" whether that ranking is deserved or not. Between the CLS, SL, CL, S, and other various AMG models Mercedes moves more high-dollar hardware both here and around the world than anyone else in the mainstream luxury sector. Sure when you talk about Aston-Martin, Bentley, Ferrari and others Mercedes is not as prestigious and can't command the same prices. The 450K SLR is a rare thing.

Even I, as much as I like the Mercedes CL or SL, would take an Aston-Martin DB9 over either one of them.

No one here has seen the new S in person or the LS at all so there is no way for anyone to know how the cars will match up in person. The S-Class sales of the last few years are supposed to drop, its a 7 year old car. Even still it outsells all the Euro competition in the U.S. and around the world, only the much cheaper LS outsells it, and in this country only. That to me says Mercedes' prestige or dominance isn't even in question. When the S-Class or the E-Class for that matter lose their positions both here and around the world then you may have a point.

In the lower ranks its BMW who is red-hot obviously with everyone chasing the 3-Series, been that way for years. Mercedes was never the dominant choice when it came to their smaller cars.

M

oac · August 2005

You say that Mercedes can no longer dominate the luxury space? Then who does if they don't is all I'm asking. Between that point of where the mid-size luxury cars taper off, around 60K or so to somewhere over 100K Mercedes is dominant...

The argument of price you continue to throw around is old and worn. The high prices of MBs have been shown not to be solely about prestige, but more to do with their antiquated production system which is too costly. Thanks to Chrysler, MB can remain afloat for sometime....

In the >90K price range, the number of MB car sales are so small as to be insignificant. The price range that counts is the $50 - $80K. That is the sweet spot in the market we are talking about here, and that is where Lexus outshines the others, as the market has spoken. If MB can produce their cars at Lexus expense would they be priced as a Lexus ? Nope....

And Lexus will start to play in that stratosphere soon enough, but these will mostly be niche cars, just like the CL, SL, SLR cars from MB, or the 760iL from BMW.

And BMW sales are boosted by incentives even on the brand spanking new e90, their bread-and-butter... The 5- and 7-series are not setting any sales records, though the 5- continue to sell well, but not kicking its competition to the curb (yet).

merc1 · August 2005

The argument of price you continue to throw around is old and worn. The high prices of MBs have been shown not to be solely about prestige, but more to do with their antiquated production system which is too costly. Thanks to Chrysler, MB can remain afloat for sometime....

Whats old and worn is the diversion into irrelevant issues. You're bringing up why MB's prices are where they are instead of supporting your original point about MB not being the choice for the high-end buyer. No one said anything about why they're prices are what they are. You said that MB is no longer the choice for the high-end buyer and I see nothing to support that theory. Jumping around to what Lexus will do in the future or why Mercedes' prices are where they are has nothing to do with the fact that Mercedes remains the most popular choice for the high-end buyer. The day Lexus can sell a 450K car like the SLR I'll be too old to participate here.

When Lexus is able to command SL, CL, SLR, and high end AMG like prices you won't think this point is "old and worn" I'm sure.

The data says otherwise about the 7-Series. The current car has been the best selling 7-Series ever so it has set a "record" for BMW. It has beaten the best ever total for the previous car, and has done so for more than just one year. The 5-Series continues to be either first or second in its class, which is more than anyone can say for the GS. You always say I don't look at the total picture, but here you aren't either. You're judging the success of the 7-Series based on a month to month basis and/or relative to the much cheaper LS in sales, instead of the worldwide sales and overall sales of the car since 2002, which makes it a success for BMW, you know the people who actually get the money from it. The car has been panned in the press and the market did just the opposite.

Please give evidence of incentives on the brand new 3-Series, I didn't know there were any.

M

oac · August 2005

Whats old and worn is the diversion into irrelevant issues. You're bringing up why MB's prices are where they are instead of supporting your original point about MB not being the choice for the high-end buyer. No one said anything about why they're prices are what they are. You said that MB is no longer the choice for the high-end buyer and I see nothing to support that theory.

Sometimes it is a pain discussing with you Merc1... What about the fact that buyers TODAY have more choices of high-end lux cars than in the past, say a decade ago, that you don't understand ? Lexus and Infiniti are new entrants within the past 15 years, right ? Prior to 1990, its either MB or BMW... Now Lexus via its LS, and Infiniti via its G cars have provided much better competition to the dominance of the traditional leaders (MB and BMW).

Yes, 7-series may be selling well for a 7-series, but it remains a distant third to the LS. So I am looking at the bigger picture of the entire class, not the narrow picture of solely the 7-series sales record.... Do you stop to ask why the lux car market has expanded with new entrants like Lexus and Infiniti (and even VW) ? That's what I mean by choice. Going forward, there will be even more choices, and the battle will only get hotter, and better for buyers. Are you a buyer of these cars ? If you are, then you'd care about the choices; but if you are not, then all you can do is pontificate....

merc1 · August 2005

What about the fact that buyers TODAY have more choices of high-end lux cars than in the past, say a decade ago, that you don't understand ? Lexus and Infiniti are new entrants within the past 15 years, right ? Prior to 1990, its either MB or BMW... Now Lexus via its LS, and Infiniti via its G cars have provided much better competition to the dominance of the traditional leaders (MB and BMW).

I got that part long ago, its the relevence I'm trying to figure out. First it was MB isn't the choice for the high-end buyer, now it has shifted to there are more choices. We all know that. Anyone can see this. Sure the market has expanded and MB and BMW have expanded their sales with it. Back before Lexus and all the newcomers MB/BMW never broke 100K sales a year, now they're both over 200K a year.

Prior to 1990, there was Jaguar, Audi, and Cadillac also, not just BMW and Mercedes. Were those others good choices? Thats open for debate for sure, but they were there sure enough.

I never argued that buyers don't have more choices today, only that MB is still the main choice for the high-end buyer, which is what you started out with a few posts back. Infiniti's G35 has nothing to do with your original point about MB and the high-end buyer or the high-end luxury buyer period. The Q45 does however and its a dud of the highest order. Infiniti isn't even a player at the high-end of the market. Audi sells more A8s than Infiniti does Q45s.

Of course there is more competition all around, I didn't debate that. I couldn't debate that with a 1/2 dozen newer and/or revised cars in the E's segment alone this year, for example.

Yes, 7-series may be selling well for a 7-series, but it remains a distant third to the LS. So I am looking at the bigger picture of the entire class, not the narrow picture of solely the 7-series sales record...

So what, the 7-Series costs more than the LS430 to begin with. Secondly how are you looking at the whole picture when the gist of your post is again about sales compared to the LS and not BMW's bottom line? You're only looking at sales relative to a much cheaper car and ignoring the fact that the current 7-Series has surpassed the record for any 7-Series before it.

Why is it that the 7-Series has to outsell the LS for it to be a success in your eyes, but the GS doesn't have to outsell the 5-Series to be a hit? Major contradiction there. Sales, again aren't the sole indicator of whether or not a car is a success or not.

I see you withdrew your post with that claim about who sells more cars between 50-80K so I'll delete mine that disproved it.

M

merc1 · August 2005

In the >90K price range, the number of MB car sales are so small as to be insignificant. The price range that counts is the $50 - $80K. That is the sweet spot in the market we are talking about here, and that is where Lexus outshines the others, as the market has spoken.

That maybe the case with the "others" but it certainly isn't the case when it comes to Mercedes-Benz. At the 50-80K "sweet spot" price point, that statement is incorrect if you're referring to Mercedes.

Since 2005 isn't over yet, lets look at 2004. Mercedes has roughly 4 models that sell in your noted price range of 50-80K, the G, E, CLK and most of the S-Class. Now between the E, S, CLK, and G-Class Mercedes sold 103,461 cars that cost roughly between 50-80K in 2004.

Those numbers don't even reflect the CL, SL and SLR at 2683, 12,885 and 45 units respectively, all of which sell at prices way above any Lexus.

In the >90K price range, the number of MB car sales are so small as to be insignificant.

Sorry, but just because Lexus doesn't sell anything past 70K doesn't mean the 12K+ SL's Mercedes sold last year at 90K+ are "insignificant". Such a statement can't be taken seriously as no one else even comes close to such volume at that price point. Why is it that if Lexus doesn't do it, it is deemed insignificant?

Anyway, back to your original statement about the 50-80K price bracket.

Lexus has the LS430, GS430, LX470 and SC430 that sell between the 50-80K price points you mentioned. I couldn't find the total number for 2004 for the SC430, but the GS, LS, and LX sold 50,380 units. This is counting the GS as a whole because if you look at the just the GS430, which is the only 50K GS model the 8,262 units the "GS" sold last year would be a whole lot less. A whole lot less considering hardly nobody bought a GS430 last year. (Even with the new car the GS300 is by far the majority of GS sales, but thats another story.) Even if you add the 35,420 units the GX470 sold last year and add say 12K SC430 sales last year (which I don't think it sold that many), you still get 97,880 units which is still below the Mercedes total. The SC430 number is very generous imo as I seriously doubt it sold that many in 2004. If you take away the GS300, you'd most likely wind up with about 90K units for Lexus sold in that 50-80K price (which is very impressive I'll admit) range compared to roughly over 100K units for Mercedes.

Now if you have differing numbers I'd like to be corrected here, especially about the SC430 which I admit I'm guessing since I couldn't find a grand total for 2004 anywhere.

Except for a huge number of SC430 sales way over what I gave, switching the price bracket doesn't change anything. Plus you're ignoring the extra 15,613 units Mercedes sold over your 80K price bracket. Either way you want to chop it, Mercedes is still the #1 choice for the mainstream, high-end luxury car buyer.

The world of Bentley, Aston-Martin, Rolls-Royce and Maybach is quite different.

M

ljflx · August 2005

Let me just interject that you don't look at lux sales on pure absolute volume. I don't know the numbers and I'm not going to waste my time looking them up. But my guess is that the new 7 isn't anymore successful than the old 7 and may be worse off. Sure it's volume is up but the market has expanded. As I said - I don't know the numbers so this is only an example but if BMW was selling 16K cars in a 60K market that's a 27% share. If they are now selling 20K cars in an 85K market that's a 24% share. In that example you would measure the new car as less successful. My gut tells me the latter is the case.

designman · August 2005

Ljflx, your gut is right in the case of the 5-series. Someone in the Luxury Performance Sedans thread pointed out that the segment DOUBLED sales in one year from July 04 to July 05 but that the 5s market share went from 23.7% to 18.8%. Dont know how true it is but if so, no marketer can be happy about this. Its kind of like an employee getting a $10K raise when everyone else in the company is getting $20K. Slap in the face. The boom in that segment was incredible (actually, sounds too incredible to believe) and theres no way BMW should not have at least maintained market share.

But every company in that position will take the figures and spin it to the public. Record sales in the case of the 7. Yeah, it sounds good on the surface, and it is in context of the company itself, but its specious in other regards as Ljflx mentioned. Also, around here the BMW campers play it like a cheap fiddle, when in fact BMW should be doing better and has to watch its step even though it is prospering.

BMW Auto and Brand Sales are down. Kdshapiro, its not a blip. I cant see how BMW auto sales are trending in the right direction.

BMW Group USA July 2005 Sales:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/08/02/139184.html

BMW Group First-Half Sales For 2005:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/07/01/136391.html

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles