LOL! All of the above and at the time I had a choice between a manual C230 and a 325 with auto. And I like the way the C sport sedan looks. And 3's are everywhere and was tired of them.
There is a long article in germancarfan about Mercedes...It describes the new S, and after a short perusal it would seem to me that there will be quite something to look forward to....It may really be quite expensive with the different options, so much so that Lexus would do well to come along with their new entry more quicky...We poor comsumers are going to be beaten to death....Tony
You know, I've read a lot of posts in Edmunds and you're everywhere. You do have a good knowledge of the auto industry and most of the time you know what you're talking about, but you just have to face the reality, Lexus is a much better car to a lot of people. Mercedes is not as attractive as you think it is. The reality is reality, it's almost as if you don't want to admit that Mercedes is not longer the brand that it used to be.
It's almost as if you have selective memory, for some reasons, all your friends that drive Lexus hate its boring styling, while all your friends aspire to own a Mercedes. Well, I don't know what kind of crowd you've been hanging around with, my type of crowd has a very good mix of MBZ, BMW, Lexus, Jag, Audi. I feel that you're trying to deny the fact, to the degree that's it's almost.... not adult like. Most of the posts by people like oac and many others have mostly unbiased view, but you're almost plain ignoring the fact and will defend MBZ even if it's not the same lux brand it used to be.
By the way, I don't really like Lexus, but I do have a lot of respect for its reliability, technology, and yes, prestige. The thought of getting a Lexus did cross my mind once, and it was actually yesterday, when the service manager of my Jag S-Type told me that they would have to replace my headlight housing because they broke the bulb while replacing it, and scrached the housing itself.... grrrrr. Still in love with my S-Type though, so I am pretty sure I will continue to be a Jag owner.
I too have read a lot of Merc's posts here and at Germancarfans, and I also have a lot of respect for his knowledge and passion for cars in general and MB in particular. If you read his posts on other boards, he is quite candid in his criticisms/doubts re MB, which is entirely unneccessary here as there are many willing to do just that. I believe he is just responding to what he perceives to be "attacks" on a brand he has long admired. It seems as though he is the only one who is actively defending the MB fort against the onslaught of the Lexus horde. :P
I am thirty seven and am fortunate enough to have both an SC430 and LS430. I find neither to be soulless or passionless, though my wife might apply those words to me. And yes, I love to DRIVE cars and am considering a Porsche 997 for when I really want to let loose. Point is the two Lexus' are perfect for 99% of my driving needs. There are no twisty two-lane roads meandering through a mist-cloaked mountainside beckoning me to test the limits of my cars anywhere near where I live. And if there were I would be scared to death of another guy just like me coming in the opposite direction!
Having said that, when it's time to replace either car, I will definitely consider other manufacturers besides Lexus, with MB at the top of the list. I prefer to judge cars model vs model, not make vs make.
I have to chuckle when I read all these posts praising Lexus.
Anger would be a more precise description based on what you wrote below.
I have driven them and they are absolutely the most boring luxery car line in the world.
Still not as boring as riding an S class the way it's designed to be ridden: in the back seat, with a chauffer driving the car.
The cars drive and look like they were designed by the same robots that built them.
The objective content in that statement? nada.
They inspire no passion for driving.
Really?? IS and GS inspire less passion for driving than the pinnacle of MB engineering, the S class?? What passion for driving is there when driving a G-wagon anyway?
The people who buy them must only want a comfortable living room to get them from place to place. They are the Camerys of the luxury car market. I'll take a Benz or a BMW, or a Caddy over the souless Lexus.
Comfort used to be the thing MB was good at creating and took pride of. Comfort, quietness and impeccable reliability are the objectively measurable hallmarks of high end luxury cars ever since the days of Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost of 1907. All that talks of "soul" for mechanical devices were nonsense invented in the 60's in an valiant yet ultimately fruitless effort to defend the dying British sportscar industry. It did not work then, and does not work now.
But even Lincoln isn't dumb enough to make a front-wheel drive luxury sport sedan.
What Lexus model is a FWD luxury sport sedan? The ES is an entry level luxury sedan, but never a luxury sport sedan. Are you talking about the higher priced Mini models from BMW or A and B classes from MB?
It's almost as if you have selective memory, for some reasons, all your friends that drive Lexus hate its boring styling, while all your friends aspire to own a Mercedes. Well, I don't know what kind of crowd you've been hanging around with,
That's symptomatic of the kids that learned to drive in the mid-to-late 90's. You know, the first car had to be a luxury car, reliability not critically important as the car ownership itself was more for bragging rights than anything else. But there's only $5k to play with. No Lexus had depreciated to that level yet, so it had to be an 80's MB or BMW. There arises the die-hard loyalty. Some grew out of that mind set as their economic status improvement allow them to buy brand new cars from any of the three makers (and learned which new one is the best rather quickly); some never grew out of luxury-brand beaters, both financially and mentally.
We have a wonderful car in many ways that count, but I can suggest to all that when your time comes to get a new car to try out all that can be afforded....I got my wife a new bmw stationwagon 5 and it is a much better driving car than I thought it would be...I don`t drive very aggressively normally but in her car there is a certain amount of spirit that is much appreciated....I think ` for the money` Lexus is the better value, but sometimes spending more gets more Tony
I spent more to own both MB and BMW, but I go to those dealerships to fix things more often than my friends who own Lexus. What a bummer! My next auto will be for sure Lexus.
1.LOL no anger here, I really do laugh. I find it funny when people praise Lexus like they are the greatest cars ever made. 2. The S is the standard of the class. I will probably never get one but what it does it is the best in its class and that's nothing to be ashamed about. 3. Passion and soul are certainly not objective quantities but if you don't believe me check with just about every automotive journalist seems to say the same thing about Lexus when they review the cars (boring tomb like etc.) 4. LOL again with the S. class, and the pinnacle of Mercedes engineering is AMG and any of those models, even your hated S class will blow the doors off the Lexus. (The S65 will do 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.) Some chauffeur car huh. And I love the G-class. A world renown offroading vehicle. And the G-55 AMG sweet! 5. And comfort and convenience are the hallmarks of a good luxury car but in my opinion it also must be fun to drive and it must look good too, which Lexus isn't. Oh by the way I am 34 and wasn't around in the 1960's to defend the British sports car industry, lol.
What good is a MB when you have to take it to the dealership all the time? I can't even remember how it drives on the way to the dealership. And you call that the standard? Wake up pal. How many MBs have you owned? I have own several so far and they are getting worse.
I have two and never had any problems with them. (My 190E has over 200K and no major problems) Although mine are OK I do agree they seemed to have slipped in their quality recently but I still would rather have a Benz than a Lexus. They really are boring, I would even take an Infinity over the Lexus. If you are going to spend 30K+ for a car I want some heart and soul in it and is fun to drive. But some people don't care about the way a car drives, that's why they buy a Lexus and thats fine, but I don't like how pretentious attitude many Lexus fans have where anybody who chooses one of their competitors (especially a German or American one) is a fool. And "Pal" I am awake, thank you. You however may need a nap.
I have had Lexus from the beginning, and fully agree with you about the quality....In my case the dealership experience even beat the car....Once the Lexus broke going down to Key West..It made it but needed some electrical controler replaced....I phoned the dealer and they trucked it up to Miami, got me a car to drive, fixed it and trucked it back...They even offered to pay room and board, but I declined as I already had that in the plans...What service....My suggestions are that the other cars have a different driving experience, and I stress the drive part....Sometimes something different is appreciated. Tony ps I have folowed your posts in the past and remember the pictures you shared with us You looked happy
2. The S is the standard of the class....what it does it is the best in its class and that's nothing to be ashamed about.
I really think there is no objective standard. Different people will have different opinions of what "the standard" of the large luxury sedan should be, and depending on one's needs/desires an S,A8,7, or LS, or something else, might qualify as being "the standard". Some people might think the standard should be more luxurious and gravitate toward an LS, others might think it should be more sporty and gravitate toward the 7.
The fact that the LS is the unit sales leader in the segment suggest that the LS is "the standard" in more peoples' eyes than is the S.
3. Passion and soul are certainly not objective quantities but if you don't believe me check with just about every automotive journalist seems to say the same thing about Lexus when they review the cars (boring tomb like etc.)
No doubt Lexus is less sporty on average, but I think the "boring" moniker depends on the model. I suggest you pay attention as IS, particulary IS350, reviews come out...and suggest a test drive if a 3 or C are in your future.
BTW, if passion and soul are so important, I don't see why the non-M BMWs fail to beat the non-AMG MBs in your eyes.
1.LOL no anger here, I really do laugh. I find it funny when people praise Lexus like they are the greatest cars ever made.
Some of them indeed are. Car making as a technology has been advancing for the last 120 years. The greatest car made today are indeed the greatest car ever made. Why is that surprising?
2. The S is the standard of the class. I will probably never get one but what it does it is the best in its class and that's nothing to be ashamed about.
Complete nonsense. I have seen more than a couple stranded brand new S classes by the side of the road near where I live but never an LS. There are more LS than S in my neck of words. In any case, since you are never going to get one, probably never even driven one, how in the world do you know it is the best in its class? Personally, I like the ride quality of LS much better than S. I was sitting in a 2005 Rolls Phantom yesterday (at a party thrown by the magazine that I bought ads from, and a limo company brought the car for drumming up its business), and even that car offers nothing substantially superior to the LS as far as interior appointment is concerned. BTW, I cringed at the thought of the V12 idling the entire 5 hrs that I was there; such is the fate of 450 horses trapped in a posure mobile. If it were not for the day getting dark and my unfamiliarity with the beach town, I would have offered him a couple hundred bucks to let me drive the thing a couple blocks :-) He did promise to make the vehicle available for $1200 if I ever need it in Boston, and he will have it driven up to me from NYC for only $100 extra. There's hope yet :-)
3. Passion and soul are certainly not objective quantities but if you don't believe me check with just about every automotive journalist seems to say the same thing about Lexus when they review the cars (boring tomb like etc.)
By age 34, one should have learned that journalists are probably one of the least reliable sources of information, especially on subjective items. Also, not even they consider all Lexus cars boring tomb like; e.g. the current IS300.
4. LOL again with the S. class, and the pinnacle of Mercedes engineering is AMG and any of those models, even your hated S class will blow the doors off the Lexus. (The S65 will do 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.) Some chauffeur car huh. And I love the G-class. A world renown offroading vehicle. And the G-55 AMG sweet!
AMG is a mod shop (whether when it was independent or bought out by MB). The have the last dip on car models that are already at least a couple years old. The S class is where Mercedes introduce all the new stuff.
5. And comfort and convenience are the hallmarks of a good luxury car but in my opinion it also must be fun to drive and it must look good too, which Lexus isn't.
Some Lexus models are, some are not. Mercedes was neither fun to drive nor good to look at when it was at the top of its game a couple decades ago. The adjectives used for Mercedes back then were "ponderous," "aurthoritive" and "prestigeous"; hardly the stuff for "fun to drive." The looks did not change for decades when Mercedes were doing well. The usual rule of thumb in the automobile industry is that when a company has to rely on looks to sell cars, its' years are numbered.
Haha get real. The 190E was neither sporty nor luxurious even when brand new in the 80's. After 200k miles and four worn out shocks, it's probably worse than a Focus in handling and ride quality. The "soul" is long dead in such a beater if ever there was one.
Hey, stoudman, welcome back, we missed you. While I don't agree with you on many things, I generally like your posts and look forward to seeing more of them.
"But even Lincoln isn't dumb enough to make a front-wheel drive luxury sport sedan."
Oh yes they are. See: Lincoln Zephyr, aka Mazda6. The next Lincoln LS will be a Ford 500, so no fun there either.
The ES has never tried to be any kind of sports car, so the fact that its FWD is totally irrelevant. The ES is the car Buick wishes it could produce. Where FWD is a problem is in cars like the Maxima and TL. The IS350 will be the best luxury performance sedan Lexus has ever done. I think they're doing fine. You dont exactly see Toyota executives resigning in disgrace, now do you?
Atlanta Stone Mountain Park Oct 22/23 Chicago Arlington Park Oct 8/9 Chicago Arlington Park Oct 15/16 Dallas Texas Stadium Oct 22/23 Houston Reliant Park Oct 15/16 Los Angeles Dodger Stadium Nov 5/6 Miami Calder Race Course Oct 1/2 New York Belmont Park Sept 17/18 New York Belmont Park Sept 24/25 Orange County Marine Corps Air Station El Toro Nov 12/13 San Francisco Alameda Point Nov 5/6 Washington FedEx Field Sept 24/25
It will include the IS250/350, GS, RX400h. Merc1, your chance to drive the IS350 and tell us what you think!
For anyone who hasn't tried one of these before, they'll normally have some competing models for people to drive, plus food, and entertainment for kids.
Last one I went to was for MB, where among other things a professional driver drove me around a short circuit in a C55.
Before that, I went to one for Lexus SUVs, and drove (myself) an ML55, GX, and Discovery (among many choices available) over a "off-road" course (dirt trucked in and piled onto a polo field). They had some arcade and other games for the kids.
Well I disagree, Mt little 190 is still a lot more fun to drive than any front wheel drive car I have driven. And it is still way more refined and handles better than my sister's new Camry. All front wheel drive cars are at front end heavy because the front wheels have to be under the engine so under hard braking or turning the back end lifts up reducing tire grip and control. Also, in rear wheel drive cars the front wheels can placed to the corners of the car thereby increasing not only the balance of the car but the grip too. And front drive cars have torque steer too so all front wheel drive cars are at a disadvantage in terms of refinement and handling. I don't drive my 190 as much anymore now that I have the C and I probably should get rid of it but it was the first car I bought after college and still love the ole lady and she has never let me down yet. And she certainly is not a beater. I have babied it since the beginning (except on the track) and it has never been in an accident. The paint and interior is still very good and the ride is still smooth and solid. The aircon could use some work and the headlight wipers cause me some aggravation from time to time but other than that it is still a good car. Maybe someday when the engine finally does go I will drop an AMG engine in her and bring her back to the track
Stroudman, welcome back. While you were away there were some interesting threads. But now we're stuck in an endless iteration of MBZ vs. Lex. It is kind of like siege warfare with endless volleys back and forth. However, as one who doesn't have a car in this race (at 60, I'm too young to start throwing my gymn bag into an S Class and too involved with cars and driving to want an LS430) , I do think that the boys from the East are on a winning roll.
Oh really, here's what the Lexus website says about the car, "The ES soars, thanks to a powerful 3.3-liter, four-cam, 24-valve V6 engine that churns out 225 magnificent horses. The throttle body consists of an advanced drive-by-wire Electronic Throttle Control System with intelligence (ETCS-i), which connects the gas pedal directly to the engine's computer, giving you a more immediate engine response and a more thrilling ride." And if Lincoln makes the new LS front drive along with that new car then they will be lower than Lexus in my book. (If you haven't noticed, I don't like front drive cars, lol)
Hi All, This is like a set of bad re-runs...Can't we talk about something else in here? Passion is a very subjective argument. One can argue Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. I like the current S Class, almost bought one, but I wouldn't call it the standard of the class at all. No doubt it is a nice car, but I don't think there is any universal standard. I agree with some of the other posters' comments here...If someone wanted sporty why MB over BMW? It seems like BMW is more sport centric than MB. I have never driven an AMG so I don't know about that..
How about this as a next subject: What is it with the Horsepower wars? I don't particularly see the point of equipping cars with 300+ Horsepower in a country with a speed limit of 55 MPH in most places. It's nice to know my LS430 can hit 60 in around 6 seconds...But what exactly am I going to do with it? If I dared to put my foot down on any road around here, I'm sure some Policeman would be more than happy to write me a ticket..With Oil Prices hovering at $66 a barrel does this make any sense..
Now of course anyone who owns these cars probably can afford the gas prices, but paying >$40 to fill the tank of my LS430 is enough to make me grimace. I used to pay $29 only two or three years ago! Maybe a Diesel MB in my future because of all of this..I've seen a few E320 CDI's in MA despite the law against selling them here. I wonder if someone is bootlegging them in here...If the quality issues have been resolved I sure wouldn't mind getting one. I'm a big Diesel fan and it's too bad they aren't popular here.
1. Wrong, Lexus and Toyota doesn't make anything that can compete with an AMG in performance so they are certainly not best in that category. In selling lots of boring reliable luxury cars they probably are the best. 2. S is way more expensive than the LS so naturally you are going to see more. An E class is a more appropriate competitor. The reason I don't want to get an S is because I don't like large cars, the C class platform is about as big as I want to get in a car. If I need something bigger I will get an SUV, wagon or van. 3. The IS is Lexus's most attractive model to me and you can get it in a manual, but I didn't like the "feel" of the car or the looks like I did the C. Isn't it interesting how they used Mercedesque taillights though, lol. But the styling on the rest of the car is pretty uninspired. 4. Wrong again on the AMG's. AMG's come with the same equipment as the regular models but with a world class hand made engine, and upgraded suspensions, brakes, wheels and some cosmetic interior changes. 5. Disagree, those old SL's are pretty sweet. And I would love to have a 190 EVO
You post that you love excitement and handling - so I initially thought you had an AMG. Then I read you have a 190 (which hasn't even made Brightness' $5K list in many years) and a C-class. Sorry - those cars are hardly inspiring, don't fit a sporty car profile and are as undesirable as they come in the lux car segment for me. They miss on sport and they miss on luxury in my book.
No need to give me a lecture on RWD vs. FWD. I had two BMW 5 series myself in the 90's when I was in school. RWD alone however does not make a car good handling; even Model T was RWD. Nose-heavy RWD cars like many old domestics, and the 190, are no great handlers; putting an AMG engine in there would only make it even worse. RWD has nothing to do with refinement. Drive train refinement mostly relates to the engine. The four bangers in 190 is certainly not refined; nor was the 2.3 in the C class. The 190 was Mercedes' econobox. It was nowhere nearly as refined as Camry or Cressida of its contemporary back in the 80's, much less the Camry's of today. Sure your sister may have a fisher-price CE, but the 190 was known for jokes like "Mercedes leather" (vinyl interior that MB called Mercedes Tex)
A brand new Focus can easily out-handle a 190 with 200k miles. There is no way a 20-yr old 200k mile car can have decent handling or ride quality unless you replaced shocks within the last 30k miles. The whole body shell is facing metal fatigue at that point.
1. Wrong, Lexus and Toyota doesn't make anything that can compete with an AMG in performance so they are certainly not best in that category. In selling lots of boring reliable luxury cars they probably are the best.
AMG is irrelevent to 90% of buyers of new MB's, even less relevent to buyers of decade-old MB's.
2. S is way more expensive than the LS so naturally you are going to see more.
You missed the point entirely. I have seen more than a couple brand new S class broken down by the road side waiting for emergency help near where I live; never an LS. Since there are more LS than S class on the road, makes you wonder just how big the quality difference is.
3. Isn't it interesting how they used Mercedesque taillights though, lol. But the styling on the rest of the car is pretty uninspired.
What is? MB invents taillights now? Have you seen how much the new M class copies from the RX?
4. Wrong again on the AMG's. AMG's come with the same equipment as the regular models but with a world class hand made engine, and upgraded suspensions, brakes, wheels and some cosmetic interior changes.
Wrong on what?? AMG variants come out a couple years after the standard model, so it's not exactly the leader of latest technology, is it?
5. Disagree, those old SL's are pretty sweet. And I would love to have a 190 EVO
Oh really, here's what the Lexus website says about the car, "The ES soars, thanks to a powerful 3.3-liter, four-cam, 24-valve V6 engine that churns out 225 magnificent horses. The throttle body consists of an advanced drive-by-wire Electronic Throttle Control System with intelligence (ETCS-i), which connects the gas pedal directly to the engine's computer, giving you a more immediate engine response and a more thrilling ride."
It doesn't exactly say ES330 is a sport sedan, does it? 225hp is a lot more than what the 190 puts out, or the overwhelming majority C class vehicles prying the roads out there for that matter.
Wheel placement also has to do with refinement. By having the wheels farther away from the cabin, you have less road noise and less vibration. Sound deadening material also makes a car feel more refined. The I-6 in my 190 is way more refined than the buzzy japanese engines in the Toyotas and Hondas. Not the quickest engine anymore but still can do 100+ and still feel better than the new econoboxes at 80. And the four wheel disk brakes and four wheel independent suspension are not available on many new cars. My econobox of a 190 cost $34K+ in 1992. And the 190 is a well balanced car, much better than any front drive car. Its a bit long in the tooth but people still complement me on it. I used to drive a lot for my job, most of it open highway so the miles have not been hard on it. But I have replaced some of the components on it over the years. I used to have it dealer serviced and they replaced things as it needed it. The dealer was expensive but the car never once let me down. It has served me well and was a darn good car for its day and still is a good car. And one last time, I picked the C because it had a manual and the BMW I looked at was an automatic. And I like the way it drives, maybe its because I have had a Benz for so long and it was a manual while the 3 was an auto. And I like the way the C looks, the 3's look much more common. And I will probably get another C class the new C350 has a v-6 268 hp engine with a 6 speed manual is looking pretty nice. But enough of my car buying choices, like they matter. And I am getting tired of arguing with all of you. Most of the arguments I see have nothing to do with my main point that Lexus is not the be or end all of automobiles and there are perfectly valid reasons for not wanting a Lexus. Lexus does have its weaknesses, even reviewers who praise the cars will say they are not up to par with their German competitors in performance or sportiness. And the few that I have driven seem to agree with this assessment. So all you Lexus people, get over it, you bought a car because it is comfortable and reliable not for its sportiness or its flashy styling. That's fine but don't pretend that its the best at everything and claim that Germans or Americans are pathetic worms that cannot make worth buying. Good night.
Perhaps you are in a wrong age group. If your best friend has to baby a $5000 '95 SC300 like a crown jewel, perhaps your age group can only afford beat up 80's and early 90's BMW and MB. Used Lexus simply hold up value too well for your age group or income demographic.
Perhaps you're making way too many assumptions. This person could afford a much more expensive and newer Lexus, but hasn't done it because a car isn't the most important thing to him. He has invested in other things that will pay off so please keep your assumptions about me what my "circle" can afford to yourself.
Unless there is a survey out there that says directly that buyers care about or even know who the CEO is of the company they're buying a car from I think the point is unfounded. People don't care about corporate news nearly on the level of our Lexus owners here, and even then there are onlu 2-3 that try to put this "everyone is thinking about MB's corporate problems" over on everyone like it really is something everyone thinks about when buying a car. Even on other boards Lexus owners don't mention anything about corporate matters from a competitor or Lexus for that matter. The more I look at this it is clear that this is the notion of a paranoid few.
It's a point Merc just doesn't get. People I know in business are well aware of MB's problems and many have walked from the brand. Those who haven't are people with the old more reliable MB's and they are real hesitant on buying a new one.
I have explained this over and over, but you still try to lump in CEO and corporate matters in reliablity surveys. I have never at any point said that reliability surveys don't have an impact on buying habbits. There are many posts right here on Edmunds in one Mercedes board or another that proves this. My issue is this notion that buyers care about who a CEO is or what the company made in profits last year. That is ridiculous at best. Sure your group may care about such things, but most buyers don't because if they did Mercedes would be facing a major downturn, not an upturn as they have over the last few months. This thing about buyers caring about such irrelevant stuff is nothing more than Lexus-based, biased fantasy as it hasn't shown up anywhere yet.
You keep saying I don't get the point, but there is no "point" to get about a buyer caring about who a CEO is, why he left, what the company made last year or any of that nonsenese. Reliability surveys? Yes they have an impact on buyer decisions, and I never disputed that. My only thing with the surveys is that not everyone uses them as a bible, obviously otherwise most of the European auto industry would be a lot worse shape than they are in.
The market speaks.... and numbers tell the story which no amount of spin can refute. Merc1 and other MB fans need reality check... MB is not growing as the competition, and is no longer the *must have* brand among the lux crowd. That is reality !
It is amazing OAC. You change your points with every post, after they have been disproven. First you stated that MB was no longer "the car" for the high-end buyer, then you revert over to saying that Lexus is outselling Mercedes, when no one ever debated that in the first place. Also, at what point did I say that Mercedes drivers were younger than Lexus drivers? Please give me the post # and the quote. Fact is I never did, but you find the data presented by syswei amusing because it shows that MB owners are 8 years older than Lexus owners.
A person ageing from 50 to 58 now has blue hair and drives in the slow lane. Ok, I expected a logical post, that is my fault.
You know, I've read a lot of posts in Edmunds and you're everywhere. You do have a good knowledge of the auto industry and most of the time you know what you're talking about, but you just have to face the reality, Lexus is a much better car to a lot of people. Mercedes is not as attractive as you think it is. The reality is reality, it's almost as if you don't want to admit that Mercedes is not longer the brand that it used to be.
Thank you. However this "but you just have to face the reality, Lexus is a much better car to a lot of people" is a key statement. At what point did I ever say that MB was a better car for someone else? If you prize boring styling, driving experience, dealership treatment, and what type of loaner car will be given, Lexus is for you. My point here and has been for years is that I and others look at more than just what Consumer Reports says about a car and how the dealership is when it comes to cars. Never said that a Lexus wasn't the right car for some folk here, because I really think it is the right car for what I'm reading here.
It's almost as if you have selective memory, for some reasons, all your friends that drive Lexus hate its boring styling, while all your friends aspire to own a Mercedes. Well, I don't know what kind of crowd you've been hanging around with, my type of crowd has a very good mix of MBZ, BMW, Lexus, Jag, Audi. I feel that you're trying to deny the fact, to the degree that's it's almost.... not adult like. Most of the posts by people like oac and many others have mostly unbiased view, but you're almost plain ignoring the fact and will defend MBZ even if it's not the same lux brand it used to be.
Oh my. You really think the preceding pro-Lexus posts were unbiased? Also, re-read what I said in my posts about people I know who drive what. I at no point stated that all my friends aspire to own MBs. I said that they aspire to own MB, BMW, Infiniti and even Audi. You thinking that Oac's posts aren't biased is just as off-base as you saying that said that everyone I know wants a Mercedes-Benz.
The reality is reality, it's almost as if you don't want to admit that Mercedes is not longer the brand that it used to be.
I have admitted this time and time again, its the nonsense I take issue with. Here any little sales drop is a major crisis, yet when the year is over MB increases sales every year. Anything dealing with profits and CEOs has buyers stoping in their tracks. Every buyers or most of them are some business type person that cares about a CEO leaving or what the profits were last month. It goes on and on and none of it holds any water beyond "the people I know", but this is supposed to apply to most buyers and it hasn't shown up anywhere yet.
I don't kid myself for a min that MB isn't in trouble, but this is hype and exagerration central and the slightest little thing is some overblown crisis because its Mercedes.
I mean if you read the boards here Mercedes is a complete has been and doesn't make a decent product and doesn't lead in anything and doesn't have any advantages. It is impossible to have a objective conversation here because Lexus is the best at everything let them tell it. Things Lexus doesn't excel in aren't relevant and are brushed aside. This is what you call unbiased?
I too have read a lot of Merc's posts here and at Germancarfans, and I also have a lot of respect for his knowledge and passion for cars in general and MB in particular. If you read his posts on other boards, he is quite candid in his criticisms/doubts re MB, which is entirely unneccessary here as there are many willing to do just that. I believe he is just responding to what he perceives to be "attacks" on a brand he has long admired. It seems as though he is the only one who is actively defending the MB fort against the onslaught of the Lexus horde.
Thank you. Pointing about Mercedes' faults isn't enough here unless you say they're dead and gone. The whole brand thing is based on sedans here not any other MB model because when you point out that those models make up a big part of the heritage/mystique there is no reply of any kind so MB is judged on corporate matters and the S-Class.
The fact that Lexus keeps making their car in the same mold as the S-Class should tell you who the standard is. Mercedes, BMW, Audi and Jaguar don't emulate Lexus at all. Lexus LS430 having a big price advantage compared the Euro competition is a major reason behind the sales thing. I know, you don't think price matters.
"So all you Lexus people, get over it, you bought a car because it is comfortable and reliable not for its sportiness or its flashy styling."
Tell me exactly where anyone said Lexus makes the best handling car. Most of us have always said its better than average and more than adequate for all driving needs. The base S-class - which I have probably driven more often than you've sat in one - is hardly a handling car. In fact Consumer Reports says its even quieter (read that as tomb like when you write about Lexus) than a super quiet LS430 in this last model year. The statement you posted above fits just about every historical MB buyer that ever existed - except that in the last 10 years you can replace reliable with unreliable. Finally the price you paid for the 190 is more than a comparable car today without even interest affecting your 20 year old payment. I wouldn't brag about that because MB dropped prices in the late 90's in response to the growing competition in its class. That 190 was bought at MB's old "take every buck you can from them" days. In other words - you overpaid.
Well, I pointed you out because you are apparently very, and I mean heavily biased towards Mercedes. It's like your mission is to discount Lexus's luxury and prestige.
Wheel placement also has to do with refinement. By having the wheels farther away from the cabin, you have less road noise and less vibration.
Now tell me exactly how RWD makes the wheels farther away from the cabin, and produce less road noise and vibration?? The car still has to have two wheels in the front, right? In fact, RWD cars are less quiet because of the trasmission and drive shaft going through the bottom of the cabin itself, making noise along the way. As for vibration, RWD has a real problem: if the car is F/R unbalanced like domestic RWD and the 190, the car does not handle well and becomes real safety hazard in snow; if the car is 50/50 F/R like the BMW's I had, the front end becomes susceptible to sympathetic vibration. RWD has many virtues, quietness and lack of vibration are certainly not those.
Sound deadening material also makes a car feel more refined.
That's one of the things that Lexus is really good at.
Its a bit long in the tooth but people still complement me on it.
The real reason why you like the car is coming out ;-) They have no idea the car is worth less than a new Focus, much less, for many good reasons.
but don't pretend that its the best at everything and claim that Germans or Americans are pathetic worms that cannot make worth buying.
I never said such thing. It was you who accused all Lexus being souless boring mobiles when you only drove a few models yourself.
Sorry - those cars are hardly inspiring, don't fit a sporty car profile and are as undesirable as they come in the lux car segment for me. They miss on sport and they miss on luxury in my book.
Really? I guess you've driven a C-Class Sport model like the new C350 to know this right? I take it the current IS300 is the most desirable car in the entry-level class right? Or is it the ES330?
You keep saying I don't get the point, but there is no "point" to get about a buyer caring about who a CEO is, why he left, what the company made last year or any of that nonsense. Reliability surveys? Yes they have an impact on buyer decisions, and I never disputed that.
Let me see if I can reconcile the arguments made here. I don't think ljflx or oac are saying that people aren't buying MBs because the CEO got dumped. But they are saying that some people aren't buying MB cars because they are suffering from a reputation for unreliability, compared to their historical reputation for being "bullet-proof". That fact of people interested in reliability shying away from MB showrooms who otherwise would be buyers, the recalls, the increased cost of warranty repairs, etc., is what has affected Daimler Chrysler's profitability as a company, and ultimately led to the turnover in upper management.
Merc1, the problem here is that you are confusing cause with effect. The cause is making unreliable cars when the company reputation was based not on making the sexiest cars (perhaps like Jaguar), or the best driving cars (perhaps like BMW or more exotic cars), but on providing the best-made, most reliable cars in the world, which also happen to drive quite well and look quite nice. The effect is lowered profits, dumped CEOs, and eventually lost market share (even if total volume doesn't go down because it happens to be playing in an expanding market segment).
So Merc1 is right: no one is not buying MBs because the CEO got dumped or profits are down; but the CEO got dumped and profits are down for the same reason that some people-- including previous MB owners like me-- aren't buying new MBs.
Well, I pointed you out because you are apparently very, and I mean heavily biased towards Mercedes. It's like your mission is to discount Lexus's luxury and prestige.
Never said I wasn't biased towards Mercedes, everyone knows that. What you stated however is that I'm ignoring everything due to a bias and that simply isn't true. It isn't my mission to discount Lexus' luxury, that couldn't be done if I tried. Lexus' are very luxurious. I only take issue with thinking that Lexus is on the same level of prestige with Mercedes because a few sedan buyers here are using the S-Class (as opposed to the whole lineup) and some irrelevant stuff about CEOs and what not to base that claim on. Guy if you don't see the clear "Lexus is everything" theme here then I don't know what to tell you. MB isn't given credit for anything.
please keep your assumptions about me what my "circle" can afford to yourself.
Hey, you were the one who brought up your "circle"; it's only fair to have your circle background checked and cross-examed after you bring that up. It seems to me that it is no mere co-incidence that people who have nothing to do with personal ownership of new high end MB models are the ones most vociferous about the notion of Deutches-uber-alles. Those who actually bought recent S class seem to be much more open-minded about competition, if not outright swearing off the brand altogether.
Personally I don't usually care much about CEOs either; in fact, I don't even know who is Toyota's CEO, aside from reasonable certainty that the founder Toyoda is no longer there. The situation at MB is different: Shrempp is being fired for poor product quality and corporate malfeasance; things got so bad the firing became industry head-line news. It would take someone who does not care about the auto industry at all not to know the news (even then it's doubtful as it's in general news); so what kind of car enthusiasts would that be? one doesn't care about auto news at all??
If you prize boring styling, driving experience, dealership treatment, and what type of loaner car will be given, Lexus is for you.
With statements like that, you should not be surprised to get the response that, if you prize road side breakdowns, poor dealership treatment, shoddy workmanship, and oodles of admiration from groupies who don't know anything about cars and will compliment your jalopy, then Mercedes is for you :-)
Hey, you were the one who brought up your "circle"; it's only fair to have your circle background checked and cross-examed after you bring that up. It seems to me that it is no mere co-incidence that people who have nothing to do with personal ownership of new high end MB models are the ones most vociferous about the notion of Deutches-uber-alles. Those who actually bought recent S class seem to be much more open-minded about competition, if not outright swearing off the brand altogether.
Yeah because I was asked a question about who I know what they drive. Still you have no idea as to who can afford what. Are all young people supposed to be saddled with debt to drive a high-end car? I'd rather wait, and most people I know would too before running out to buy some high-end car with a lease payment that gets in the way of eating. Know what I mean?
The point of that post was about who desires what. There was no need to make such broad assumptions about who can afford what and why. Totally unncessary.
The comment about no expereince with high-end MB ownership also applies to the same pro-Lexus posters here too, not the former MB owners, but those with the surveys/ceo/profit stuff in every post. They haven't owned a MB either to my knowledge, its all paper based.
I don't disagre about the cause and effect, its the notion that most buyers think about this is what I take issue with. This big downfall and sales downturn has been predicted by oac and ljflx for a while now, years in the case of ljflx. The thing is it hasn't happened yet nearly on the scale of which we have to read about every few months. I mean really if even the majority of buyers thought about or cared about this stuff wouldn't at least one of Mercedes' newer product introductions flop? Yet this year they're 3 for 3 with the M, CLS, and SLK. I don't doubt for a minute that reliability plays a huge role for a lot of buyers, but all this other stuff they try to tie in like its some sort of check list for buyers is ridiculous. Most buyers couldn't tell you anything about the company they're buying from past what Consumer Reports or JDP says about them.
The other side of that is that they seem to think that I think MB isn't in any kind of trouble or that they don't have any problems. Its one extreme of the other, which is why we stay in disagreement.
Comments
You know, I've read a lot of posts in Edmunds and you're everywhere. You do have a good knowledge of the auto industry and most of the time you know what you're talking about, but you just have to face the reality, Lexus is a much better car to a lot of people. Mercedes is not as attractive as you think it is. The reality is reality, it's almost as if you don't want to admit that Mercedes is not longer the brand that it used to be.
It's almost as if you have selective memory, for some reasons, all your friends that drive Lexus hate its boring styling, while all your friends aspire to own a Mercedes. Well, I don't know what kind of crowd you've been hanging around with, my type of crowd has a very good mix of MBZ, BMW, Lexus, Jag, Audi. I feel that you're trying to deny the fact, to the degree that's it's almost.... not adult like. Most of the posts by people like oac and many others have mostly unbiased view, but you're almost plain ignoring the fact and will defend MBZ even if it's not the same lux brand it used to be.
By the way, I don't really like Lexus, but I do have a lot of respect for its reliability, technology, and yes, prestige. The thought of getting a Lexus did cross my mind once, and it was actually yesterday, when the service manager of my Jag S-Type told me that they would have to replace my headlight housing because they broke the bulb while replacing it, and scrached the housing itself.... grrrrr. Still in love with my S-Type though, so I am pretty sure I will continue to be a Jag owner.
Open up your world.
I am thirty seven and am fortunate enough to have both an SC430 and LS430. I find neither to be soulless or passionless, though my wife might apply those words to me. And yes, I love to DRIVE cars and am considering a Porsche 997 for when I really want to let loose. Point is the two Lexus' are perfect for 99% of my driving needs. There are no twisty two-lane roads meandering through a mist-cloaked mountainside beckoning me to test the limits of my cars anywhere near where I live. And if there were I would be scared to death of another guy just like me coming in the opposite direction!
Having said that, when it's time to replace either car, I will definitely consider other manufacturers besides Lexus, with MB at the top of the list. I prefer to judge cars model vs model, not make vs make.
Anger would be a more precise description based on what you wrote below.
I have driven them and they are absolutely the most boring luxery car line in the world.
Still not as boring as riding an S class the way it's designed to be ridden: in the back seat, with a chauffer driving the car.
The cars drive and look like they were designed by the same robots that built them.
The objective content in that statement? nada.
They inspire no passion for driving.
Really?? IS and GS inspire less passion for driving than the pinnacle of MB engineering, the S class?? What passion for driving is there when driving a G-wagon anyway?
The people who buy them must only want a comfortable living room to get them from place to place. They are the Camerys of the luxury car market. I'll take a Benz or a BMW, or a Caddy over the souless Lexus.
Comfort used to be the thing MB was good at creating and took pride of. Comfort, quietness and impeccable reliability are the objectively measurable hallmarks of high end luxury cars ever since the days of Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost of 1907. All that talks of "soul" for mechanical devices were nonsense invented in the 60's in an valiant yet ultimately fruitless effort to defend the dying British sportscar industry. It did not work then, and does not work now.
What Lexus model is a FWD luxury sport sedan? The ES is an entry level luxury sedan, but never a luxury sport sedan. Are you talking about the higher priced Mini models from BMW or A and B classes from MB?
That's symptomatic of the kids that learned to drive in the mid-to-late 90's. You know, the first car had to be a luxury car, reliability not critically important as the car ownership itself was more for bragging rights than anything else. But there's only $5k to play with. No Lexus had depreciated to that level yet, so it had to be an 80's MB or BMW. There arises the die-hard loyalty. Some grew out of that mind set as their economic status improvement allow them to buy brand new cars from any of the three makers (and learned which new one is the best rather quickly); some never grew out of luxury-brand beaters, both financially and mentally.
Which Lexus have you driven?...Which Benz do you own?..
2. The S is the standard of the class. I will probably never get one but what it does it is the best in its class and that's nothing to be ashamed about.
3. Passion and soul are certainly not objective quantities but if you don't believe me check with just about every automotive journalist seems to say the same thing about Lexus when they review the cars (boring tomb like etc.)
4. LOL again with the S. class, and the pinnacle of Mercedes engineering is AMG and any of those models, even your hated S class will blow the doors off the Lexus. (The S65 will do 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.) Some chauffeur car huh.
And I love the G-class. A world renown offroading vehicle. And the G-55 AMG sweet!
5. And comfort and convenience are the hallmarks of a good luxury car but in my opinion it also must be fun to drive and it must look good too, which Lexus isn't.
Oh by the way I am 34 and wasn't around in the 1960's to defend the British sports car industry, lol.
But some people don't care about the way a car drives, that's why they buy a Lexus and thats fine, but I don't like how pretentious attitude many Lexus fans have where anybody who chooses one of their competitors (especially a German or American one) is a fool.
And "Pal" I am awake, thank you. You however may need a nap.
I really think there is no objective standard. Different people will have different opinions of what "the standard" of the large luxury sedan should be, and depending on one's needs/desires an S,A8,7, or LS, or something else, might qualify as being "the standard". Some people might think the standard should be more luxurious and gravitate toward an LS, others might think it should be more sporty and gravitate toward the 7.
The fact that the LS is the unit sales leader in the segment suggest that the LS is "the standard" in more peoples' eyes than is the S.
3. Passion and soul are certainly not objective quantities but if you don't believe me check with just about every automotive journalist seems to say the same thing about Lexus when they review the cars (boring tomb like etc.)
No doubt Lexus is less sporty on average, but I think the "boring" moniker depends on the model. I suggest you pay attention as IS, particulary IS350, reviews come out...and suggest a test drive if a 3 or C are in your future.
BTW, if passion and soul are so important, I don't see why the non-M BMWs fail to beat the non-AMG MBs in your eyes.
What's up, merc 1?
Some of them indeed are. Car making as a technology has been advancing for the last 120 years. The greatest car made today are indeed the greatest car ever made. Why is that surprising?
2. The S is the standard of the class. I will probably never get one but what it does it is the best in its class and that's nothing to be ashamed about.
Complete nonsense. I have seen more than a couple stranded brand new S classes by the side of the road near where I live but never an LS. There are more LS than S in my neck of words. In any case, since you are never going to get one, probably never even driven one, how in the world do you know it is the best in its class? Personally, I like the ride quality of LS much better than S. I was sitting in a 2005 Rolls Phantom yesterday (at a party thrown by the magazine that I bought ads from, and a limo company brought the car for drumming up its business), and even that car offers nothing substantially superior to the LS as far as interior appointment is concerned. BTW, I cringed at the thought of the V12 idling the entire 5 hrs that I was there; such is the fate of 450 horses trapped in a posure mobile. If it were not for the day getting dark and my unfamiliarity with the beach town, I would have offered him a couple hundred bucks to let me drive the thing a couple blocks :-) He did promise to make the vehicle available for $1200 if I ever need it in Boston, and he will have it driven up to me from NYC for only $100 extra. There's hope yet :-)
3. Passion and soul are certainly not objective quantities but if you don't believe me check with just about every automotive journalist seems to say the same thing about Lexus when they review the cars (boring tomb like etc.)
By age 34, one should have learned that journalists are probably one of the least reliable sources of information, especially on subjective items. Also, not even they consider all Lexus cars boring tomb like; e.g. the current IS300.
4. LOL again with the S. class, and the pinnacle of Mercedes engineering is AMG and any of those models, even your hated S class will blow the doors off the Lexus. (The S65 will do 0-60 in 4.2 seconds.) Some chauffeur car huh.
And I love the G-class. A world renown offroading vehicle. And the G-55 AMG sweet!
AMG is a mod shop (whether when it was independent or bought out by MB). The have the last dip on car models that are already at least a couple years old. The S class is where Mercedes introduce all the new stuff.
5. And comfort and convenience are the hallmarks of a good luxury car but in my opinion it also must be fun to drive and it must look good too, which Lexus isn't.
Some Lexus models are, some are not. Mercedes was neither fun to drive nor good to look at when it was at the top of its game a couple decades ago. The adjectives used for Mercedes back then were "ponderous," "aurthoritive" and "prestigeous"; hardly the stuff for "fun to drive." The looks did not change for decades when Mercedes were doing well. The usual rule of thumb in the automobile industry is that when a company has to rely on looks to sell cars, its' years are numbered.
Haha get real. The 190E was neither sporty nor luxurious even when brand new in the 80's. After 200k miles and four worn out shocks, it's probably worse than a Focus in handling and ride quality. The "soul" is long dead in such a beater if ever there was one.
Read post#10106 for prognosis.
Oh yes they are. See: Lincoln Zephyr, aka Mazda6. The next Lincoln LS will be a Ford 500, so no fun there either.
The ES has never tried to be any kind of sports car, so the fact that its FWD is totally irrelevant. The ES is the car Buick wishes it could produce. Where FWD is a problem is in cars like the Maxima and TL. The IS350 will be the best luxury performance sedan Lexus has ever done. I think they're doing fine. You dont exactly see Toyota executives resigning in disgrace, now do you?
register here: http://www.tasteoflexus.com/default.asp
locations and dates:
Atlanta Stone Mountain Park Oct 22/23
Chicago Arlington Park Oct 8/9
Chicago Arlington Park Oct 15/16
Dallas Texas Stadium Oct 22/23
Houston Reliant Park Oct 15/16
Los Angeles Dodger Stadium Nov 5/6
Miami Calder Race Course Oct 1/2
New York Belmont Park Sept 17/18
New York Belmont Park Sept 24/25
Orange County Marine Corps Air Station El Toro Nov 12/13
San Francisco Alameda Point Nov 5/6
Washington FedEx Field Sept 24/25
It will include the IS250/350, GS, RX400h. Merc1, your chance to drive the IS350 and tell us what you think!
Last one I went to was for MB, where among other things a professional driver drove me around a short circuit in a C55.
Before that, I went to one for Lexus SUVs, and drove (myself) an ML55, GX, and Discovery (among many choices available) over a "off-road" course (dirt trucked in and piled onto a polo field). They had some arcade and other games for the kids.
All front wheel drive cars are at front end heavy because the front wheels have to be under the engine so under hard braking or turning the back end lifts up reducing tire grip and control. Also, in rear wheel drive cars the front wheels can placed to the corners of the car thereby increasing not only the balance of the car but the grip too.
And front drive cars have torque steer too so all front wheel drive cars are at a disadvantage in terms of refinement and handling.
I don't drive my 190 as much anymore now that I have the C and I probably should get rid of it but it was the first car I bought after college and still love the ole lady and she has never let me down yet. And she certainly is not a beater. I have babied it since the beginning (except on the track) and it has never been in an accident. The paint and interior is still very good and the ride is still smooth and solid.
The aircon could use some work and the headlight wipers cause me some aggravation from time to time but other than that it is still a good car.
Maybe someday when the engine finally does go I will drop an AMG engine in her and bring her back to the track
And if Lincoln makes the new LS front drive along with that new car then they will be lower than Lexus in my book. (If you haven't noticed, I don't like front drive cars, lol)
This is like a set of bad re-runs...Can't we talk about something else in here? Passion is a very subjective argument. One can argue Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. I like the current S Class, almost bought one, but I wouldn't call it the standard of the class at all. No doubt it is a nice car, but I don't think there is any universal standard.
I agree with some of the other posters' comments here...If someone wanted sporty why MB over BMW? It seems like BMW is more sport centric than MB. I have never driven an AMG so I don't know about that..
How about this as a next subject: What is it with the Horsepower wars? I don't particularly see the point of equipping cars with 300+ Horsepower in a country with a speed limit of 55 MPH in most places. It's nice to know my LS430 can hit 60 in around 6 seconds...But what exactly am I going to do with it? If I dared to put my foot down on any road around here, I'm sure some Policeman would be more than happy to write me a ticket..With Oil Prices hovering at $66 a barrel does this make any sense..
Now of course anyone who owns these cars probably can afford the gas prices, but paying >$40 to fill the tank of my LS430 is enough to make me grimace. I used to pay $29 only two or three years ago! Maybe a Diesel MB in my future because of all of this..I've seen a few E320 CDI's in MA despite the law against selling them here. I wonder if someone is bootlegging them in here...If the quality issues have been resolved I sure wouldn't mind getting one. I'm a big Diesel fan and it's too bad they aren't popular here.
SV
2. S is way more expensive than the LS so naturally you are going to see more. An E class is a more appropriate competitor. The reason I don't want to get an S is because I don't like large cars, the C class platform is about as big as I want to get in a car. If I need something bigger I will get an SUV, wagon or van.
3. The IS is Lexus's most attractive model to me and you can get it in a manual, but I didn't like the "feel" of the car or the looks like I did the C. Isn't it interesting how they used Mercedesque taillights though, lol. But the styling on the rest of the car is pretty uninspired.
4. Wrong again on the AMG's. AMG's come with the same equipment as the regular models but with a world class hand made engine, and upgraded suspensions, brakes, wheels and some cosmetic interior changes.
5. Disagree, those old SL's are pretty sweet. And I would love to have a 190 EVO
A brand new Focus can easily out-handle a 190 with 200k miles. There is no way a 20-yr old 200k mile car can have decent handling or ride quality unless you replaced shocks within the last 30k miles. The whole body shell is facing metal fatigue at that point.
AMG is irrelevent to 90% of buyers of new MB's, even less relevent to buyers of decade-old MB's.
2. S is way more expensive than the LS so naturally you are going to see more.
You missed the point entirely. I have seen more than a couple brand new S class broken down by the road side waiting for emergency help near where I live; never an LS. Since there are more LS than S class on the road, makes you wonder just how big the quality difference is.
3. Isn't it interesting how they used Mercedesque taillights though, lol. But the styling on the rest of the car is pretty uninspired.
What is? MB invents taillights now? Have you seen how much the new M class copies from the RX?
4. Wrong again on the AMG's. AMG's come with the same equipment as the regular models but with a world class hand made engine, and upgraded suspensions, brakes, wheels and some cosmetic interior changes.
Wrong on what?? AMG variants come out a couple years after the standard model, so it's not exactly the leader of latest technology, is it?
5. Disagree, those old SL's are pretty sweet. And I would love to have a 190 EVO
Feel free to live in the past.
It doesn't exactly say ES330 is a sport sedan, does it? 225hp is a lot more than what the 190 puts out, or the overwhelming majority C class vehicles prying the roads out there for that matter.
The I-6 in my 190 is way more refined than the buzzy japanese engines in the Toyotas and Hondas. Not the quickest engine anymore but still can do 100+ and still feel better than the new econoboxes at 80. And the four wheel disk brakes and four wheel independent suspension are not available on many new cars.
My econobox of a 190 cost $34K+ in 1992.
And the 190 is a well balanced car, much better than any front drive car. Its a bit long in the tooth but people still complement me on it.
I used to drive a lot for my job, most of it open highway so the miles have not been hard on it. But I have replaced some of the components on it over the years. I used to have it dealer serviced and they replaced things as it needed it. The dealer was expensive but the car never once let me down.
It has served me well and was a darn good car for its day and still is a good car.
And one last time, I picked the C because it had a manual and the BMW I looked at was an automatic.
And I like the way it drives, maybe its because I have had a Benz for so long and it was a manual while the 3 was an auto. And I like the way the C looks, the 3's look much more common.
And I will probably get another C class the new C350 has a v-6 268 hp engine with a 6 speed manual is looking pretty nice.
But enough of my car buying choices, like they matter. And I am getting tired of arguing with all of you. Most of the arguments I see have nothing to do with my main point that Lexus is not the be or end all of automobiles and there are perfectly valid reasons for not wanting a Lexus.
Lexus does have its weaknesses, even reviewers who praise the cars will say they are not up to par with their German competitors in performance or sportiness. And the few that I have driven seem to agree with this assessment.
So all you Lexus people, get over it, you bought a car because it is comfortable and reliable not for its sportiness or its flashy styling. That's fine but don't pretend that its the best at everything and claim that Germans or Americans are pathetic worms that cannot make worth buying.
Good night.
Perhaps you're making way too many assumptions. This person could afford a much more expensive and newer Lexus, but hasn't done it because a car isn't the most important thing to him. He has invested in other things that will pay off so please keep your assumptions about me what my "circle" can afford to yourself.
Unless there is a survey out there that says directly that buyers care about or even know who the CEO is of the company they're buying a car from I think the point is unfounded. People don't care about corporate news nearly on the level of our Lexus owners here, and even then there are onlu 2-3 that try to put this "everyone is thinking about MB's corporate problems" over on everyone like it really is something everyone thinks about when buying a car. Even on other boards Lexus owners don't mention anything about corporate matters from a competitor or Lexus for that matter. The more I look at this it is clear that this is the notion of a paranoid few.
M
I have explained this over and over, but you still try to lump in CEO and corporate matters in reliablity surveys. I have never at any point said that reliability surveys don't have an impact on buying habbits. There are many posts right here on Edmunds in one Mercedes board or another that proves this. My issue is this notion that buyers care about who a CEO is or what the company made in profits last year. That is ridiculous at best. Sure your group may care about such things, but most buyers don't because if they did Mercedes would be facing a major downturn, not an upturn as they have over the last few months. This thing about buyers caring about such irrelevant stuff is nothing more than Lexus-based, biased fantasy as it hasn't shown up anywhere yet.
You keep saying I don't get the point, but there is no "point" to get about a buyer caring about who a CEO is, why he left, what the company made last year or any of that nonsenese. Reliability surveys? Yes they have an impact on buyer decisions, and I never disputed that. My only thing with the surveys is that not everyone uses them as a bible, obviously otherwise most of the European auto industry would be a lot worse shape than they are in.
M
It is amazing OAC. You change your points with every post, after they have been disproven. First you stated that MB was no longer "the car" for the high-end buyer, then you revert over to saying that Lexus is outselling Mercedes, when no one ever debated that in the first place. Also, at what point did I say that Mercedes drivers were younger than Lexus drivers? Please give me the post # and the quote. Fact is I never did, but you find the data presented by syswei amusing because it shows that MB owners are 8 years older than Lexus owners.
A person ageing from 50 to 58 now has blue hair and drives in the slow lane. Ok, I expected a logical post, that is my fault.
M
Thank you. However this "but you just have to face the reality, Lexus is a much better car to a lot of people" is a key statement. At what point did I ever say that MB was a better car for someone else? If you prize boring styling, driving experience, dealership treatment, and what type of loaner car will be given, Lexus is for you. My point here and has been for years is that I and others look at more than just what Consumer Reports says about a car and how the dealership is when it comes to cars. Never said that a Lexus wasn't the right car for some folk here, because I really think it is the right car for what I'm reading here.
It's almost as if you have selective memory, for some reasons, all your friends that drive Lexus hate its boring styling, while all your friends aspire to own a Mercedes. Well, I don't know what kind of crowd you've been hanging around with, my type of crowd has a very good mix of MBZ, BMW, Lexus, Jag, Audi. I feel that you're trying to deny the fact, to the degree that's it's almost.... not adult like. Most of the posts by people like oac and many others have mostly unbiased view, but you're almost plain ignoring the fact and will defend MBZ even if it's not the same lux brand it used to be.
Oh my. You really think the preceding pro-Lexus posts were unbiased? Also, re-read what I said in my posts about people I know who drive what. I at no point stated that all my friends aspire to own MBs. I said that they aspire to own MB, BMW, Infiniti and even Audi. You thinking that Oac's posts aren't biased is just as off-base as you saying that said that everyone I know wants a Mercedes-Benz.
The reality is reality, it's almost as if you don't want to admit that Mercedes is not longer the brand that it used to be.
I have admitted this time and time again, its the nonsense I take issue with. Here any little sales drop is a major crisis, yet when the year is over MB increases sales every year. Anything dealing with profits and CEOs has buyers stoping in their tracks. Every buyers or most of them are some business type person that cares about a CEO leaving or what the profits were last month. It goes on and on and none of it holds any water beyond "the people I know", but this is supposed to apply to most buyers and it hasn't shown up anywhere yet.
I don't kid myself for a min that MB isn't in trouble, but this is hype and exagerration central and the slightest little thing is some overblown crisis because its Mercedes.
I mean if you read the boards here Mercedes is a complete has been and doesn't make a decent product and doesn't lead in anything and doesn't have any advantages. It is impossible to have a objective conversation here because Lexus is the best at everything let them tell it. Things Lexus doesn't excel in aren't relevant and are brushed aside. This is what you call unbiased?
M
Thank you. Pointing about Mercedes' faults isn't enough here unless you say they're dead and gone. The whole brand thing is based on sedans here not any other MB model because when you point out that those models make up a big part of the heritage/mystique there is no reply of any kind so MB is judged on corporate matters and the S-Class.
M
Tell me exactly where anyone said Lexus makes the best handling car. Most of us have always said its better than average and more than adequate for all driving needs. The base S-class - which I have probably driven more often than you've sat in one - is hardly a handling car. In fact Consumer Reports says its even quieter (read that as tomb like when you write about Lexus) than a super quiet LS430 in this last model year. The statement you posted above fits just about every historical MB buyer that ever existed - except that in the last 10 years you can replace reliable with unreliable. Finally the price you paid for the 190 is more than a comparable car today without even interest affecting your 20 year old payment. I wouldn't brag about that because MB dropped prices in the late 90's in response to the growing competition in its class. That 190 was bought at MB's old "take every buck you can from them" days. In other words - you overpaid.
I'll be there as with any other automotive event in the tri-state area, not that my opinion of any Lexus would ever matter here.
M
I think I say it in a very neutral view.
Now tell me exactly how RWD makes the wheels farther away from the cabin, and produce less road noise and vibration?? The car still has to have two wheels in the front, right? In fact, RWD cars are less quiet because of the trasmission and drive shaft going through the bottom of the cabin itself, making noise along the way. As for vibration, RWD has a real problem: if the car is F/R unbalanced like domestic RWD and the 190, the car does not handle well and becomes real safety hazard in snow; if the car is 50/50 F/R like the BMW's I had, the front end becomes susceptible to sympathetic vibration. RWD has many virtues, quietness and lack of vibration are certainly not those.
Sound deadening material also makes a car feel more refined.
That's one of the things that Lexus is really good at.
Its a bit long in the tooth but people still complement me on it.
The real reason why you like the car is coming out ;-) They have no idea the car is worth less than a new Focus, much less, for many good reasons.
but don't pretend that its the best at everything and claim that Germans or Americans are pathetic worms that cannot make worth buying.
I never said such thing. It was you who accused all Lexus being souless boring mobiles when you only drove a few models yourself.
Really? I guess you've driven a C-Class Sport model like the new C350 to know this right? I take it the current IS300 is the most desirable car in the entry-level class right? Or is it the ES330?
M
Let me see if I can reconcile the arguments made here. I don't think ljflx or oac are saying that people aren't buying MBs because the CEO got dumped. But they are saying that some people aren't buying MB cars because they are suffering from a reputation for unreliability, compared to their historical reputation for being "bullet-proof". That fact of people interested in reliability shying away from MB showrooms who otherwise would be buyers, the recalls, the increased cost of warranty repairs, etc., is what has affected Daimler Chrysler's profitability as a company, and ultimately led to the turnover in upper management.
Merc1, the problem here is that you are confusing cause with effect. The cause is making unreliable cars when the company reputation was based not on making the sexiest cars (perhaps like Jaguar), or the best driving cars (perhaps like BMW or more exotic cars), but on providing the best-made, most reliable cars in the world, which also happen to drive quite well and look quite nice. The effect is lowered profits, dumped CEOs, and eventually lost market share (even if total volume doesn't go down because it happens to be playing in an expanding market segment).
So Merc1 is right: no one is not buying MBs because the CEO got dumped or profits are down; but the CEO got dumped and profits are down for the same reason that some people-- including previous MB owners like me-- aren't buying new MBs.
Never said I wasn't biased towards Mercedes, everyone knows that. What you stated however is that I'm ignoring everything due to a bias and that simply isn't true. It isn't my mission to discount Lexus' luxury, that couldn't be done if I tried. Lexus' are very luxurious. I only take issue with thinking that Lexus is on the same level of prestige with Mercedes because a few sedan buyers here are using the S-Class (as opposed to the whole lineup) and some irrelevant stuff about CEOs and what not to base that claim on. Guy if you don't see the clear "Lexus is everything" theme here then I don't know what to tell you. MB isn't given credit for anything.
M
Hey, you were the one who brought up your "circle"; it's only fair to have your circle background checked and cross-examed after you bring that up. It seems to me that it is no mere co-incidence that people who have nothing to do with personal ownership of new high end MB models are the ones most vociferous about the notion of Deutches-uber-alles. Those who actually bought recent S class seem to be much more open-minded about competition, if not outright swearing off the brand altogether.
Personally I don't usually care much about CEOs either; in fact, I don't even know who is Toyota's CEO, aside from reasonable certainty that the founder Toyoda is no longer there. The situation at MB is different: Shrempp is being fired for poor product quality and corporate malfeasance; things got so bad the firing became industry head-line news. It would take someone who does not care about the auto industry at all not to know the news (even then it's doubtful as it's in general news); so what kind of car enthusiasts would that be? one doesn't care about auto news at all??
With statements like that, you should not be surprised to get the response that, if you prize road side breakdowns, poor dealership treatment, shoddy workmanship, and oodles of admiration from groupies who don't know anything about cars and will compliment your jalopy, then Mercedes is for you :-)
Yeah because I was asked a question about who I know what they drive. Still you have no idea as to who can afford what. Are all young people supposed to be saddled with debt to drive a high-end car? I'd rather wait, and most people I know would too before running out to buy some high-end car with a lease payment that gets in the way of eating. Know what I mean?
The point of that post was about who desires what. There was no need to make such broad assumptions about who can afford what and why. Totally unncessary.
The comment about no expereince with high-end MB ownership also applies to the same pro-Lexus posters here too, not the former MB owners, but those with the surveys/ceo/profit stuff in every post. They haven't owned a MB either to my knowledge, its all paper based.
M
The other side of that is that they seem to think that I think MB isn't in any kind of trouble or that they don't have any problems. Its one extreme of the other, which is why we stay in disagreement.
M