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What does article rating have anything to do with the article? The rankings were determined by Mathematics, hardly worthless information. I don't see how anyone's "opinion" can refute what is stated as fact here.
SV
But it could have been a bit more informative if they broke down the individual costs of ownership for each vehicle.
Nobody from Lexus would open any of the doors.
Exterior viewing only.
It does make you wonder what the heck they are thinking when they make these decisions. If the next auto show was in the same place you can understand it - at least a little. Then it's just progressive marketing. But the next show - in the case of the LS - is in a totally different country. So in effect you've denied the Japanese attendees a chance to see the entire car. Call it restrictive marketing or something but whatever it is - it's dumb.
I doubt if he will.
The headlights look like they were copied directly from...dare I say it....
Bangle's BMW 5 series!
"Your Record says what you are.."
That article's "record" is a 1.5. Therefore, as an ANALOGY to the quote you posted, not worth much. And YES it IS all mathematics, just like those guys that try to convince you that the ONLY thing that matters to measure a car's merits is the mathematical accounting of $$$, and units sold. That's the real point I was making. (Actually, I appreciated the article, thanks.) Sorry you didn't get it, but I'll surely forgive you, so long as you promise not to beg.
I agree with Hpowders (possibly a first? ), only the exterior of the LS will be on display next month. Unfortunate. (I doubt I will be going, as I usually only attend on years where I am in the market).
link title
I’ve noticed you comments about Jag pricing so I guess you have a keen eye for the bargain side of things and that a Porsche to your liking could get expensive. But 996s have not held their value well so there are buying opportunities. As far as room, the place to be in this category is with a Boxster or Corvette coupe as you know.
It’s bargain time of the year so I’ll be skulking around the P dealers starting next week. Roiling around in my head is a new Carrera, Boxster or Boxster S, used 996 Turbo, Cayman or Z6. I’m really not sure what I want to do. I probably couldn’t sell the Boxster on my own until Spring which means I’d have to be holding two sports cars at once.
The biggest problem with a Porsche is temptation. I got a speeding ticket last year and was fortunate to get nailed on the downswing at only 84, then have the violation get knocked down to a traffic control. In any event, it took the wind out of my sails so I want to get to a track and DE. I don’t even want radar because the devil will get right back up on my shoulder.
I would be careful driving a 911 at high speed if you don’t have experience with it You probably know this but the rearward center of gravity makes it susceptible to aerodynamic instability in addition to the oversteer. With a direct angle of attack into wind they have uncanny stability but once the wind starts crossing, it becomes precarious. Obviously, you can never really have pure air. Professional instruction is advisable to drive a 911 fast. Actually, it’s advisable to drive any car fast. Also, I keep seeing images of some Porsche crashes that have made their way onto Porsche forums. As I get older I keep telling myself, you are not as good as you once thought.
Anyway, it sounds like you’ll be getting the LS.
Tagman are you gonna be around for the long haul? Team Euro needs a good scrappy leadoff batter to counter Oac in that position for the Lexicans. I think you’re right for the job. I’ll move Dewey into the number 2 slot. Merc1 is our cleanup hitter. (Dewey, would you feel better if it’s a hockey team?)
Did I actually read someone begging for forgiveness?
Well I want to make sure I don’t offend the sensitive types. Some people can’t handle the locker room banter. Maybe someone gets hit with a stray spitball from the barrel of my Bic pen every once in a while and starts whining. Funny, did you actually think I was on my hands and knees?
Then again, maybe I should stop trying to be funny. After all, this is not a locker room, it is a very serious place. That’s it, nothing but serious car business from here on in. That’s my New Year resolution.
;-)
Did you offer them some Bangle Kool Aid?
;-)
I have already seen what happens to the few poor BMW fanatics who have attempted to post over there.
A braver man than I would have to mention the new LS and 5 series headlight resemblances (assuming the LS spyshot was accurate; who knows?)
As for me, no thanks.
Call me a coward but at least I get to live another day.
Geesh!
I was searching through Ebay listing for Lexus cars (Just to get a sense of resale value) and came across this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BILL-GATES-OWNED-FULLY-DOCUMENTED-1990-MICROSOFT-- 25pix_W0QQitemZ4597271832QQcategoryZ14240QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Now I don't know about you guys, but there is no way I'd pay $40K for a 15 yr old car. I sincerely doubt that this car has any real historic value. Some of the comments the seller makes are real amusing.
It was nice to see a LS400 well cared for. Most of the ones I see nowadays are in deplorable condition. Worse yet are the ones who have been subjected to the abuse of the [non-permissible content removed] crowd.
SV
I know, I know I have been demoted. My reputation here dived ever since I expressed my views on the importance of owning a car for a few decades!
Yes a hockey team sounds fine. If my wife and I can drive our MB another 40 years( We are consuming a lot of vitamins to make sure the Benz does not outlive us), I can certainly wait another forty years for Toronto to win a Stanely Cup
The Flying Frenchmen!
The rating has nothing to do with the truth. The truth is those cars are big money drain. Even a rating of zero doesn't mean it's not true. Go back to the article and see what those rating means.
Neither do $$$$$$$ and units sold become the only measurement of a car's merits.
GET IT???????????
There is a misconception here. Most folks buying in the HELM range are not value buyers. A $65K LS is NOT a value purchase. Any car that expensive is not purchased for its *value*. If one needs a value purchase, spend $20-40K and get a wide range of excellent and very capable cars out there. My $15K '03 Matrix is a hoot to drive, and I love it. This is my *value* purchase.... WRT the LS, every iteration release often starts higher in price than the previous version. Same will be expected when the 2007 LS460 gets here next Fall. And with the promised Hybrid (LS600h), AWD (option) and LWB/SWB versions, you can expect these various configurations to start to climb in price as well. Will the LS versions be higher, at par, or remain lower than the comparable MB ?, I guess we'll see soon enough.
Well if they're going to do the actual "debut" then the car should be at the very least on a spinning display with the doors open so you can take a peek at the interior. I doubt that it will be on the floor and open like their other models. Something like that has a better chance of happening later int he autoshow season, like at New York in April.
M
There is a misconception here. Most folks buying in the HELM range are not value buyers. A $65K LS is NOT a value purchase. Any car that expensive is not purchased for its *value*.
Oac c’mon, rethink that. You guys have been trumpeting the LS value since I can remember. If you can get a $10 mil home for $6 mil, you mean that’s not a value buy? Value is the whole Toyota/Lexus story in a nutshell. It’s how they made their bones. And Lexus buyers believe they are getting an equivalent or better car than MB and BMW for less. That’s “value” plain and simple.
I know, I know I have been demoted. My reputation here dived ever since I expressed my views on the importance of owning a car for a few decades!
Dewey No sir. The number 2 batter on a baseball team is just as important as the leadoff man. Derek Jeter often bats in that slot. You are very important to Team Euro.
For what it is worth, I bought my Lexus even I still have my MB and BMW is just in case those two German cars are in shop, which happens a lot verus the Lexus, none, period.
What's wrong with getting a Lexus that is better than MB or BMW for less? Score another one for Lexus.
There’s nothing wrong with it which is precisely my point. It's about value for many, just as your second sentence here suggests, and which contradicts both your first sentence here and Oac's statement.
Scorekeeper... take that point away from the Lexicans and give it to Team Euro.
;-)
Designman: Oac c’mon, rethink that. You guys have been trumpeting the LS value since I can remember. If you can get a $10 mil home for $6 mil, you mean that’s not a value buy? Value is the whole Toyota/Lexus story in a nutshell. It’s how they made their bones. And Lexus buyers believe they are getting an equivalent or better car than MB and BMW for less. That’s “value” plain and simple.
My dear Designman, I must disagree with the premise here. When someone who makes 6-figure salary steps up to buy a HELM car, he/she is NOT thinking value. He/she starts with the brand. Which of these cars best personifies what he/she stands for ? No grinch buys a $65K car to feel he/she got value. Why create a luxury division if not to appeal to these group of people who place brand marqueness almost at the top of their car buying purchase. Otherwise my wife would have bought me a KIA for my 40th birthday and be done with it. She figured a Lexus makes a statement, one that I agree with her about So the question of value comes up in comparisonto buying/leasing the equivalent MB which may be priced $20-30K higher, when some people may feel it is not justified. Without that latter feeling of justification, there is no value purchase when you step up to buy a Porsche or an MB S500 or Lexus LS430, imo.
A S600 is value compared to a Maybach.
A person finds value when he buys a Porsche and is happy with driving it as if driving a Ferrari.
Whether a Porsche is equivalent to a Ferrari is irrelevant. It all depends on the buyer's perception. And that applies equally to someone who buys an LS versus a MB S500.
Thanks, Len. Just exactly what I am trying to say
Hmm, to me that actually seems opposite to what you said. As Dewey suggested, you were creating an absolute when everything is relative.
Anyway, I’m not going to belabor this. Another day, another klatch. Feel free to get the last word in. But just remember, there is no absolute here, only Stoli and Grey Goose.
;-)
PORSCHE
Unfortunately you need a subscription to have access, but there are some parts of the article that grabbed my attention.
1)Porsche is no longer content just being a little car company that makes big profits. Can Porsche maintain its cachet, and its hefty profits, as it reaches out to a broader class of customers?
The above reminds me a question that Warren Buffett raised sometime in the 1960s:
What business would you choose to own: A business with 10 million dollars of assets with a 15 percent return on assets or a business with 100 million dollars of assets with a 5 percent return on assets?
Unfortunately Porsche has not pondered Buffett's question in any depth and instead is choosing the path of a lower margin business with such vehicles as the V6 VW Cayenne. Porsche's pursuit may result in a bigger company but at the cost of having margins returns on assets that resembles mainstream automakers.
2)Asked about the possibility of developing a minivan -- something DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes now offers -- Mr. Wiedeking said that "today it doesn't make any sense" but added that "you never say never in our business
Yikes, the fact that Wiedeking would even admit the slight possibility of a a future Porsche minivan is scary.
Thanks, Len. Just exactly what I am trying to say
the Lexus guys are stating one of two things:
1) The Lexus is not in the Luxury segment. or . . .
2) Lexus buyers do not consider the Lexus a "value", because it IS in the Luxury segment.
Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
Also one of the Lexus guys said that the consideration of value stops at about the $65K range. Heck, since when does "value" have ANY price limitation upon it? There are houses in the multi-seven digit range here in California, and some of them are a good "value".
READ THIS and UNDERSTAND:
The price of a car has no limit as it relates to "value", so long as it is percieved that the car is worth MORE than the price tag attached!
TagMan
Porsche needs to smooth out its earnings and to decrease the violatiltiy. If Porsche can diversify beyond just one platform (the 911, obviously) they should have smoother earnings and a more assured future. Certainly, this diversification will result in increased volumes and maybe even lower margins. But it will lower violatility and they won't face the risk of irrelevancy. Not that many years ago Porsche with just the 911 was on the verge of turning into simply an engineering consultancy. They were almost a teutonic Lotus Engineering Co. Now fully half the sales are the Cayenne and they are doing well. (Just imagine what Lotus could do if they had a Cayenne?).
Incidentally, IMHO the best thing for Saab and, secondarily, for Porsche would be for Porsche to buy it from GM. Think of it: most mergers fail because of cultural problems. These guys seem to share the same culture, they have complimentary product lines, and a customer base that somewhat overlaps. Its not quite a marriage made in heaven but if the price was right, it might work.
"the Lexus guys are stating one of two things:
1) The Lexus is not in the Luxury segment. or . . .
2) Lexus buyers do not consider the Lexus a "value", because it IS in the Luxury segment."
What OAC is saying is that within this segment this is the best value - pure and simple. Is an LS a great value - No. Is it a great value in the segment it competes in? Absolutely. I don't understand why this is hard to grasp.
1) The Lexus is not in the Luxury segment. or . . .
2) Lexus buyers do not consider the Lexus a "value", because it IS in the Luxury segment.
First off, we are not "lexus guys", we are Lexus owners.. a subtle but important difference. But on the substance of your question, can I pls refer you to ljflx's post(s) once again. He seemed to capture it quite well...
Also one of the Lexus guys said that the consideration of value stops at about the $65K range...
Huh ! Are you sure you have your reading glasses on ?
The price of a car has no limit as it relates to "value", so long as it is percieved that the car is worth MORE than the price tag attached!
You are not a sales guy, are you ? Sounded like one to me...
Since you want me to have the last word, I will take it :P
True... no absolutes... The LS is NOT a value buy compared to an Avalon, but is a value buy compared to an S500. However, at a $65K price point, one can choose to buy 3 Matrix'es and still have a few thou to salt away for the kids College fund, take in a dinner and a movie... So who needs an expensive LS, 745, S500, A8, XJR, anyway ? I have my value car and its cheap to drive, cheap to maintain, and a fun little car to boot. Value ahoy !!!
Porsche was always pychologically scarred by the desertion of sports car buyers in the early 90's. Having just one product line will do that to anybody. Why on earth would any business want to keep all their eggs in one basket. The danger is always trying to do too much too soon and it's more dangerous when you are small. Look at how quickly People's Express evaporated when it tried to expand beyond its niche. On the other hand MB's bulk allows it to withstand Juurgens bad management decisions. IMO Porsche needs to expand but measuredly and it should realize that everything it touches will not turn to gold.
That’s NOT what Oac said. YOUR point is quite easy to grasp. Oac’s original statement is the point of contention. The problem is you’re both trying to make it sound like you are on the same page. It’s a classic case of husband defending wife even though wife is clearly wrong. In this case it’s a marriage of Lexican cronies, double talk and waffling. Sorry, I ain’t buying it for a minute.
As far as the "Lexus guys" vs. "Lexus owners" concern that "oac" expressed, let me just say that I believe that some of the advocates for certain marques do not actually own the marque.
Yes, you've been talking like that since I know you. And I talk the same way, as do many others around here. Throw your LS in there too. It's a VALUE, just as my cars are, LJflxs, Lexusguy's Jag, Hpowders nicely leased 545. They're all luxury cars that are values! To quote a famous philospher... nuff said. Now you can have the last word.
;-)
Whew! I'm glad you said this because that is exactly what all of that was. Lexus' whole being was founded on being a comparable car to the Germans for less money, that was the "value" in getting a Lexus over a BMW and especially a Mercedes-Benz. Everytime you read about these cars being compared you'll see where xxx thought that the LS was a better value than xxxx and so on, now we're supposed to believe that value has nothing to do with it. More Lexus double speak.
M
On a depreciating asset, one would have to be a fool not to do the research and get the best possible deal you can find whether it be on a 911 or a Camry.
Not so far, didn't I say I bought the Lexus because I can always depend on it since my other two, ie. MB and BMW are in shop frequently.
hpowders: Shopping around for a $60K 545 is not shopping for value, imo. Why a $60K 545 and not a $35K 325i ? Both will get the job done on a practical level. Or could it be that the 545 is a higher status car than a 325 and that you can afford it as well ? That's the point I made about who needs these HELM cars, anyway ? Why did Toyota, Honda, Nissan, etc create a luxury unit if people who buys them are looking for VALUE ? You want a Toyota value, buy one of their Toyota-badged cars. You want snob appeal or brand marque, step UP to the Lexus club.
Ever wonder why the more expensive LX470 sells MORE than the cheaper Land Cruiser it shares everything with ? Since I just bought an LX, I can tell you that buying a LC did not even cross my mind for 1 second. Was I thinking value ? Of course not... but that's just me...
You made a boo-boo. Don't talk about people, talk about cars. As for me, come to my house and I will show you. When is a good time for you to go to HK?
NEW DELHI — Automakers based in India and Thailand are making rapid gains in global competitiveness and could one day make the best vehicles in the world, Toyota Motor Corp. chairman Hiroshi Okuda said in a speech at an industry conference here.
Component companies in both countries are winning prestigious industry awards while Japanese companies are "standing still," Okuda said, according to Dow Jones Newswires. Indian companies such as motorcycle maker TVS Motor and Rane TRW Steering Systems have won the Deming Prize for quality in recent years, a feat no Japanese company has accomplished lately, he noted.
Toyota has become alarmed by slips in its quality ratings recently, which the company blames on its rapid global expansion.