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Comments
So what? We're not talking about sales here. The fact that these choices are there is my point. Someone buys them in enough numbers for these brands to continue to make them. The 750i Sport (which I've driven BTW) is sporty for a vehicle of its size and weight.
We can't discuss the cars without predictions about gloom and doom I see. Predicting that Maserati will exit the U.S. market (which I doubt since they're on the upswing) doesn't change the fact that they make a large sedan that is bascially a 4-door Ferrari. It flies in the face of that statement about all these cars being land yachts, as does a 750i or 760i Sport. These cars can be hustled to a degree despite their size and weight. You make it sound like there is no difference from any one of these cars and a LS430. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
Now watch as this new LS460 gets sportier in base form, which still preserving the LS430's ride and likely at the same time offering some type of sport variant or sport suspension setup too.
M
Lexus has core competence such as RX, ES and LS that account for 70-80% of total sales volume and never need heavy discounting, whereas MB does not have a single model line that can hold its price up through a model run, some heavily discounting shortly after introduction. That is indicative of massive prestige loss . . . in more technical and relevent terms: massive loss of brand equity.
Now this is desperate brightness. The 1998 GS was an expirement, but the 2006 R-Class isn't? What bs, not to mention a big-fat-excuse for the 1998 GS having flopped after the 2000 MY because the 1998 GS was the second generation of the GS, hardly a new segment/experimental car like the R-Class is. The R-Class isn't replacing a current Mercedes, unlike the 1998 GS did. The first generation IS300 was an experiment, but the 1998 GS wasn't.
Lexus has core competence such as RX, ES and LS that account for 70-80% of total sales volume and never need heavy discounting, whereas MB does not have a single model line that can hold its price up through a model run, some heavily discounting shortly after introduction. That is indicative of massive prestige loss . . . in more technical and relevent terms: massive loss of brand equity.
Yeah right, I guess the previous GS and IS were selling for sticker as is the current SC430. You're not dealing in reality if you think these models weren't discounted or that the current SC430 isn't being discounted now. You think the LS430, who's sales are dropping this year isn't being discounted at all? Yeah right.
To say that a model like the GS doesn't matter to Lexus is nothing more than a big fat excuse. If the car didn't matter they wouldn't have redesigned it! Don't tell the other Lexus fans here that the GS' sales don't matter because it has now become a huge part of the typical Lexus sales speech.
M
Who said that were the most important thing here? I said that at least MB,BMW, Audi and Jaguar offer you a choice with their AMG/M/S/RS/R cars, unlike Lexus. If performance didn't matter at all Lexus wouldn't be planning a 400hp next generation LS. I guess then it will matter because the car will be a hybrid right?
For the last time, we all know a lighter car does better in corners which is why I have said (twice now) that some of these cars do pretty well in the sport department, for their size and weight.
M
You know what real Ferrari fans say about V8 Ferraris ;-)
In any case, Quotrroporte is a car that has 1/4 less power and 1/3 more weight than the current V8 "cheap" Ferrari, about 40% reduction in power-to-weight ratio (0.15 vs. 0.09, hp/lb). For what it's worth, Honda Accord V6 has a power to weight ratio of 0.0727; in other words, Quottroporte is closer to Accord V6 than it is to the entry-level Ferrari, in terms of power-to-weight ratio, all marketing-speak not withstanding. Now you see why I said Maser will probably out of the market in a few years.
This is one is so good I had to reply twice. This (grand excuse) lets the previous GS and IS off the hook for being sales slackers because they weren't "core models". Also, this seems to imply that every Lexus has held to MSRP throughout its entire production run. That is plain bs brightness. Every car on the market goes through the same cycle of being hot and then decline with some discounting at the end of the production run. Lexus is no different.
The only thing that differs from brand to brand is how the maker controls the supply of model at the end. Some will try to flood the market with units (even add models like MB did) and others will cut production to keep from having to resort to discounting.
Lexus will slow down production or an outgoing model like the LS430 and then their fans here will act as though they're hot sellers right up until the end, nevermind that they're selling less units, like the LS430 is this year.
M
Actually I don't see anything but a lot of meaningless numbers to people who want a sporty sedan like the Quattroporte. All of that and it still doesn't change the fact that the Quattroporte is the sportiest sedan in the segment by far.
You can crunch numbers until the four Maserati brothers start spinning in their graves. It isn't going to matter one bit. Take a look at the owners of this vehicle on the Quattroporte board, they're as happy as they can be.
No I don't know what "real" Ferrari fans say about Ferrari V8s? Can't be anything negative since the F430 and the F360 before it outsells any other Ferrari model at the time.
M
It will be yet another battle in a different segment. Lexus strategy seems to be stepping into a market, transform itself from a new comer to a market leader by focusing on the meat of the market; then rinse and repeat for the sub-segment that it did not touch previously.
S8/AMG sales don't matter much in the context of regular A8, S, and LS sales; it does matter in an S8 vs. AMG competition, to be joined later with whatever Lexus bothers to offer, bankrolled by its LS sales.
Which is nothing different from what MB/Audi/BMW does. However this concept gets knocked until Lexus does it, then it is seen as something new and different.
M
S8/AMG sales do not matter if we are discussing A8 vs. S class sales because the sport division sales numbers are miniscule compared to the regular lines; S8 vs. AMG sales do matter if we are talking about S8 and AMG sales. Clear now?
Nope, and especially not the irrelevant kind comparing the Maser to a Honda Accord.
M
The feeling must be the same as what "real" MB fans think of C and A classes, and "real" Porsche fans thought of 924/944, Boxster and Cayenne. The latter also outsells/outsold all other models among the respective brands.
I see what you're saying, but I disagree because these cars are what make up the S-Class or the A8 range. They're included when the these companies count the sales for the month/year etc. They shouldn't be left out just because Lexus doesn't have anything to compete in that space.
Besides that, we weren't talking about sales. We were talking about your claim that all these cars were "land yachts", then since they all aren't you then veered off into the endless stuff about sales as a distraction.
M
I haven't see anyone say that about a F430 or F355 or even the 348 Ferrari so I don't buy that one. One of the most recent, but legendary Ferraris of all time (the F40) was a V8. No one complained about it.
M
You can buy whatever your money allows you. If you have not seen/heard of the put-downs on V8 Ferraris, well you have not been around real Ferrari fans long enough.
Unless you have the breakout for the S-Class sales every year you don't know that for sure. This year the S-Class is running neck and neck with the 7-Series so every unit sold counts and will deterimine the #2 sales spot in this class behind the LS430.
M
Well I guess not because the ones that frequent the Sports Car board have nothing but praise for the F430. Its the 612 Scagletti that has the put-downs and lackluster following.
Whatever "real" Ferrari fans thought of those older models you mentioned they must not think that of the F430 now because the car is so hot. Real Porsche folks walked away from the 944/968 and 928 models in droves, unlike the Ferrari 360 Modena and F430.
M
I doubt Ferrari owners are troubled by high maintenance bills on what was an outrageouly expensive car in the first place. If they are they then can't truly "afford" the car in the first place.
M
I think I already acknowledged that no matter what either BMW or MB sells in this segment the LS430 will be #1 in sales.
M
The only thing that differs from brand to brand is how the maker controls the supply of model at the end. Some will try to flood the market with units (even add models like MB did) and others will cut production to keep from having to resort to discounting.
That must how Lexus achieves #1 in total sales volume: by cutting back on production. What's that world again? "Bull"?
As to why I excused Lexus for the previous IS and GS in the later model year poor sales, well, I never took MB to task for poor hatchback sales towards the end of the run either; that's simply not their core competence. Manufacturers are allowed to experiment once in a while. At least the sales on both the previous GS ans IS were reasonably good at the beginning, unlike the current flopping R-class at MB.
Once again, you're trying to link one statement to something entirely different, and the two have nothing to do with each other. What I said was that when a specific model is in decline Lexus will slow down production to keep from having to resort to heavy discounting. One model like the LS being in decline isn't going to matter to Lexus' overall sales picture this year when they have a new IS and GS to keep sales going strong. I know you know this.
Oh the models that will keep Lexus on top this year, you know the GS that you claim whose sales aren't important to Lexus. Saying the GS or IS' sales aren't important to Lexus is the only bull I've read here lately.
As to why I excused Lexus for the previous IS and GS in the later model year poor sales, well, I never took MB to task for poor hatchback sales towards the end of the run either; that's simply not their core competence. Manufacturers are allowed to experiment once in a while. At least the sales on both the previous GS ans IS were reasonably good at the beginning, unlike the current flopping R-class at MB.
Problem is that the 1998 GS was NOT an experiment. It was a second generation car. Now if you can excuse the first generation IS300 for being a flop then you can excuse the R-Class also. The difference with the R-Class is that it is only a few months old, to early to know whether or not it will ever be a success.
M
Ferrari's are often owned by businesses for business purposes, so reasonable maintenance bill is highly desirable. The maintenance bill on the F40 turbo was a legend in itself.
LS still outsells 7 and S even in this model wind-down that you are alleging. Also, isn't proper managing of production and maintain brand/model prestige what a luxury marque maker supposed to do? Flooding the market with cars that need heavy discount does not jive well with maintaining marque value.
IS300 actually did quite well in the first couple model years. There was no heavy discounting in the first couple model years like what's available on R-class today, within a few short months after introduction.
It will next time they do since they GS and now IS are big contributers to Lexus' sales now. You won't be able to fall back on this excuse if and when they start to decline in a few years. The E-Class' decline was to be expected in the face of 5 freshly minted competitors! Same thing happened with the previous GS, only thing different is the timing and the numbers of new competitors in the last 12-18 months.
We all know what one of the main reasons they LS430 outsells the rest of the class is, but of course you'll just say price doesn't matter since everyone can lease so I'm done with that.
Also, isn't proper managing of production and maintain brand/model prestige what a luxury marque maker supposed to do? Flooding the market with cars that need heavy discount does not jive well with maintaining marque value.
Yes it is. Finally something I can agree with. Why they added the S350 this year is beyond me since there won't be a 2007 S350 version of the new S-Class. I guess they didn't want to drop the sales title to the 7-Series in the final year of the W220 production.
IS300 actually did quite well in the first couple model years. There was no heavy discounting in the first couple model years like what's available on R-class today, within a few short months after introduction.
Yeah sure, quite well compared to what? Not the 3-Series or any other cars it targeted. Lexus simply deciding to let the car die instead of discounting is their choice. I think the truth of the matter is that even with discounts no one wanted the previous generation IS300. It wasn't like they held it at MSRP and settled for small sales. They discounted the thing and it still didn't move! Like I said, the verdict is still out on the R-Class, being a few months old.
BTW, the first generation GS300 was quite a different animal from the GS that we know since 1998.
Excuses, excuses. The 1993 GS300 is much like the 2006 GS300, slow. The only difference/addition to the GS lineup since the beginning is the addition of a V8, the GS400 and then GS430, which very few people bought during the 1998-2005 model's production run.
M
The 1gen IS300 was never targetted to overtake 3-series in sales volume; the production line was only 20k units per year, 1/3 of 3 series sales volume in the US alone. IS300 sold every car there was in the first couple years without heavy discounting. In fact, you could not get close to invoice like normal discounting until the 3-4th year. The car never had $10k+ discounts even to the end like MB is doing on many of its models
As to the argument that LS sells more due to lower pricing, well, lump-sum $50-70k is actually much more expensive than $450/mo in cash-flow equivalence analysis, assuming disinterested bank rates and normal depreciation. It actualy would not surprise me if MB decide to bring the S350 over in the next generation; if it can make money at $450/mo with it, there will be buyer/leasers. 265hp is plenty enough for a car like that, for chauffer purpose and short business runs in town. The question is whether it can actually make money at that price point.
GS V8 to V6 sales volume ratio is about 1:3, about the same as 330i to 325i ratio, much higher than the 1:10 ~ 1:20 ratio that AMG cars account for among MB's.
Lots of doubletalk here, really don't understand any of it ..especially about Lexus overtaking BMW in sales worldwide with on volume in the U.S. alone? What the hell? Makes no sense at all.
The 1gen IS300 was never targetted to overtake 3-series in sales volume; the production line was only 20k units per year, 1/3 of 3 series sales volume in the US alone. IS300 sold every car there was in the first couple years without heavy discounting. In fact, you could not get close to invoice like normal discounting until the 3-4th year. The car never had $10k+ discounts even to the end like MB is doing on many of its models
Saying they sold every unit doesn't mean anything when they didn't bring over that many in the first place! It like saying productin is sold out when production is low to begin with. No matter how you spin it the car flopped big time. Period. The car never had 10K discounts because a car in the 30-35K segement doesn't typcially have an extra 10K than can be take off to sell it. Very disingenuous remark.
As to the argument that LS sells more due to lower pricing, well, lump-sum $50-70k is actually much more expensive than $450/mo in cash-flow equivalence analysis, assuming disinterested bank rates and normal depreciation. It actualy would not surprise me if MB decide to bring the S350 over in the next generation; if it can make money at $450/mo with it, there will be buyer/leasers. 265hp is plenty enough for a car like that, for chauffer purpose and short business runs in town. The question is whether it can actually make money at that price point.
Thank you for at least being consistent in your thinking and irrelevancy about everyone leasing.
M
Please re-read what I wrote. Lexus selling 300+k vehicles a year in the US would overtake BMW global sales with (Lexus) US sales alone! Would be a neat trick if Lexus can pull that off.
The car never had 10K discounts because a car in the 30-35K segement doesn't typcially have an extra 10K than can be take off to sell it. Very disingenuous remark.
You'd think so, but MB is apparently pulling the hat trick by making the C class available for $199/mo. But then again, it's not much different from discounting a $110k car by $30k.
Thank you for at least being consistent in your thinking and irrelevancy about everyone leasing.
I never said everyone leases. However, everyone has a strong incentive to get the best deal. MB has made the choice pretty simple. Don't blame me for comparing lease prices from MB . . . there is not a single sale offer among MB Winter Event, all leases. Obviously, MB is the one pushing leases, not me. Ignoring the best lease offer is the financial equivalent of ignoring the $30k discount on the table and insisting on paying MSRP instead . . . not relevent to real market price. The most basic accounting course would teach you how to discount present cash value of a future stream of cash.
Maybe its the hour because that statement still doesn't make any sense to me. BMW sells over a million units a year. :confuse:
You'd think so, but MB is apparently pulling the hat trick by making the C class available for $199/mo. But then again, it's not much different from discounting a $110k car by $30k.
First of all the C-Class isn't available for $199 a month! They have a lease special for $299 a month if that is what you're talking about. You just said that you never stated that everyone leases, yet all you keep harping about is lease prices. Like I said, the fact is that you aren't going to get 10K off a brand new C-Class if you're buying (not leasing) one. Period. A "stroll" to a MB dealer will teach you this.
Don't blame me for comparing lease prices from MB . . . there is not a single sale offer among MB Winter Event, all leases.
Like they would advertise actual "sale" price on their website or in a commercial. What a ridiculous comment. You don't think they're cutting some type of deal to buyers that actually buy compared to lease?
No one else has a big ole "sale price" listed anywhere either, at least not the luxury brands. GM and the gang are of course doing that, but that is another story.
M
M
Actually it's called a "dealer incentive" on lease; not available with purchase. Speaking of GM (you mentioned it), it's one of the oldest tricks in GMAC's play book. There is currently a $3-7k "dealer incentive" on E class leases not available with purchase. That's why lease is by far the less expensive way to get MB's nowadays, and overwhelming majority transactions are carried out that way.
Never said it wasn't. My point was that this doesn't work for everyone nor does everyone who gets a MB lease. I would like to see what the percentage is.
M
As far as I know, I don't know a single person who actually purchased an MB in the last few years, and I know more than a dozen MB drivers personaly, all leases. Some of them used to be buyers; some habitual buyers switched to Lexus after MB made it obvious that the only way to get the rock bottom pricing is leasing.
LOL, 2004 figures?
GM was the greatest growth company in the world during the 1950s.
How about being a bit more up to date?
LOL, 2004 figures?
brightness was talking about people comparing the E36 to the G35 in past years, so I quoted him the 2004 sales numbers...
I never compared the G to the 325i.
Where are you getting this stuff from?
I repeat: Nobody in his right mind who has compared the G to the 330i and can afford both would choose the G.
There are a number of reasons why someone might choose G over 330i; e.g.: interior room, reliability, low-key PR due to professional situation, etc.. I know a few people making $2-300k+/yr picked G over 330i; both cars were well within affordability, plus some 5 and 7 models if they really love cars. Considering that a 5 series sedan can be leased in the mid-$500/mo range, half to a third the cost of a closet-sized studio apartment rental in much of the country, affordability barrier is practically non-existent for a lot of people.
Despite this I cant wait to see the new G and hope it will out-BMW in what BMWs do best.