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DrFill
Lexusi
At this point we do not know whether toyota and lexus are even capable of making a world beating V12 which can match S65 AMG's 600 HP.
Well we know they could if they wanted too, but it wouldn't fit in the with green performance image Lexus is trying create with their hybrids and we know Toyota isn't going to do a V12 with 600 and hybrid with 500hp. One would render the other pointless - depending on the type of buyer.
M
M
The whole point about Lexus "copying" MB on horsepower is ludicrous. If not for competition, none of the big three premium brands would be updating their products as frequently as they do. Of course all of them try to anticipate what the competitions offer and try to come up with products that are competitive.
BTW, the leaders of a horse power race is usually the under-dog of the market segment. For example, BMW has had the leadership of sports sedan for two decades now; every new comer tried to out-power BMW in order to garner some market attention. For what it's worth, IMHO, in terms of product/engine development cycle and how long it takes to come up with a new engine, Infiniti Q45 was probably what started the current horse power war back when it was introduced with 340hp in early 2001 as a 2002 model when every other premium luxury cruiser had a flagship V8 in the 275-300 range. Even the V12's only made low to mid-300's back then in 2001-2002.
I know you were addressing somebody else, and I'm not trying to be rude to you...
I just get a bit offensive of the "Lexus/Mercedes/BMW" claim. Where's Audi? I have an S4 Cabriolet- wonderful V8 engine. It's the most beautiful car I have ever owned, and it really gets me there! Audi V8s are smooth too.
And, Lexus isn't relevant to German cars. The "German Big Three" are BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi. Case closed.
You may want to read this before making such a claim. If I am a Euro auto exec I'm concerned about every move Lexus is making - seriously concerned. Also there is a separate Euro high end board where Lexus is excluded anyway.
http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/best-in-show-lexus-all-new-ls-460/1671/
Here's more on the Porsche VW investment. I've yet to read one positive story on this re VW.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/04/business/worldbusiness/04volkswagen.html?_r=1&- - oref=slogin
...the LS460 features a rounded but prominent body side crease, the new Lexus 'slingshot' DLO which kicks up into the C-pillar and a series of rather odd, curvy shut lines around the rear fender, bumper, light and trunk. Other notable elements are exhausts integrated into the rear lower valance, subtle chrome appliqué at the base of the doors and a faultless but rather conservative interior.
The LS460 is a more distinctive design than its predecessor, although relative to the imposing BMW 7 Series, unusually dynamic S-Class and classically svelte Jaguar XJ and Maserati Quattroporte it is very much in the old school luxury car idiom. But given its new found sophistication, the brand's ever elevating position and its competitors arguably nonsensical abandonment of the luxury car middle ground, this might just be one of the best judged designs of the year.
source article
Slightly reminiscent of the new Lexus LS460 also debuting at Detroit, particularly its rear three quarter view.....
Other than that they seem to really like the new LS design.
M
On the LS vs Camry, let's compromise with the middle ground that you quoted, with the Camry "slightly reminiscent of the new Lexus LS460."
Of course we can't have the Camry/LS460 relationship the other way around.
M
Toyota's 'published HP' for the V-12 Century is 288 HP: Japanese manufacturers limit their claims to 288 HP in the home market (wink, nudge, chuckle). True output is probably 400+ HP.
I am sure this engine could easily top 500 HP if Toyota lets Lexus use it.
I've seen a lot about Toyota's home market V12 on various boards. It was Sammy that questioned wether or not they could build one to match the 600hp AMG V12s. I know they could but I don't see it fitting into the Lexus theme.
M
The engine is proven: no development required.
Link below to Toyota Century V-12 details at Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century
I meant to get 600+ hp out of it, not a V12 in general.
M
All this talk about big ICE's is interesting, of course, but what is REALLY coming from Toyota/Lexus? Hybrids. All we have to do is open our eyes. Sure, there are alternatives, but the ability of Toyota/Lexus to stay focused and on track is key here. And they are doing just that . . . staying the course, and they will be a dominant player as a result.
Hybrid Technology = MORE power, LESS fuel consumption, and CLEANER emissions. Imagine that. And did I mention MORE power??? I did say MORE power, didn't I? . . . just in case some out there don't get it and think that Toyota/Lexus doesn't know what they are doing . . .
They know.
TagMan
Well said.
But I can make a even more general statement out of this: that crowd would not buy any car made by non-Caucasian; they will not make friends with any non-Caucasian.
Do not accuse others in this manner. It can come back and bite you.
7.1 secs was reported by "consumer reports".
The 0-60 times are also based on my discussions with some friends at MIT when I was a graduate student there. These were not only mechanical engineering graduate students but other courses too.
We observed that when the pound to horsepower ratio lies between 10 and 25 the relationship with acceleration times show a linear relationship.
In other words if lexus LS 430 is 3990 lbs and the SAE power is 280 hp, the power to weight ratio is 14.35.
The acceleration therefore is 7.2 secs which is half of 14.35 approx.
Among other variables we accounted for number of gears, torque, rear wheel drive (or AWD, FWD), engine position.
Rear mid engine, front mid-engine and so on and found that taking these factors into account we were seeing a deviation of at most 0.2 to 0.3 secs from linear co-relation.
BTW, if you go beyond pound to horsepower ratio of 10. Lets take BMW M5 for example which has 4000 lbs and 500 hp.
Then the ratio is 8, however, the acceleration is not 4 secs. It is more like 4.4 to 4.5 secs.
Another secret for all of you who are curious. You need pound to power ratio of 6.6 or lower to get 0-60 times lower than 4 secs.
And this is one of the current bench marks for confirming a place in super-car arena.
The world is full of possibilities.
ICE engines do not produce flat torque curve like electric engines, and most cars are not hooked up to CVT transmissions. A single transmission shift can take the bulk of a second in some cars . . . there's plenty room for improvement throughout the shift and rev-matching process . . . as well as the transmission-shredding launch if one is inclined to squeeze out the best numbers. All these factors combined, 0-60 is not a simple function of power-to-weight ratio. On top of that, we also have to contend with the politics of the Japanese gentlemen's agreement about not publicly advertising any spec beyond 290hp. That agreement was more or less followed (hence you have NSX, LS400, LS430, original Q45, Nissan Skyline, etc., vastly different cars, all reporting 290 hp or thereabouts) unitl the 2001 introduction of the 2002 Q45. As far as I know, nobody has dyno'ed an LS430.
Which Honda Accord is the most powerful?
The hybrid!
0.5 seconds faster than the regular V6.
The Q45 weighs 3801lbs, and has 340hp. Thats just 11lbs per pony, so by your own math, the Q45 should be mopping the floor with the LS. Too bad thats not reality. You're forgetting that an engine is not an on off switch, where it goes from 0hp at 0rpm to 280hp at 1rpm, and stays there. You're forgetting the factors of drivetrain loss, the factors of the gearing, and the factors of the driver doing the launch. Acceleration can NOT be determined by a simple weight / power = acceleration formula.
Any HELM line benefits from the 'halo effect' a V-12 provides.
You are right, though: the V-12 had cooling problems and electrical gremlins. The V-12s aren't easy keepers!
Front end looks like lexus to me? Except for the flared wheel wells...they look beefy and sort of cheap to my eye.
Don't hold a Candle, well Lexus LS far outsells S in the U.S....
Your name dropping doesn't conceal your misinformation about why a car accelerates fast, or for that matter, a Lexus' ability on the road.
Maybe you should review the "Lexus" book.
There'll be a test later.
Not to bore the more experienced members here with what should be "common knowledge", but acceleration is many parts, HP only being one, not so large part of it.
Driver, torque, transmission, tranny gearing, road condition, even tires can +/- 0.5 secs to your 60 time! EACH!
Because C&D tests easily refutes your claim of the LS moving at a V8 Pheaton's pace, corroborated by the Lexus IS350 dusting the 330i with a 5.3 time (Lexus, perform on par with the Germans?), doesn't mean C&D had some sweet blow for those tests, or they lied, or their testing gear was made on Friday at a Ford plant.
It may mean you are just wrong.
Again. :surprise:
Clutch the pearls!
DrFill
The acceleration therefore is 7.2 secs which is half of 14.35 approx.
...
BTW, if you go beyond pound to horsepower ratio of 10. Lets take BMW M5 for example which has 4000 lbs and 500 hp.
Yeah, there is a math model about power to weight ratio. But who cares?
The model itself was built upon existing statistical data from many road tests. For us average non-scholar, why look at the model when the road test data itself is readily available? Just read MT, CD, RT ... and you will get the big picture even if they differ about 0.5s.
The math model maybe useful when we consider a car that does not exist yet, like 2000hp with 800lb weight. For any car that's in a dealership already, just test drive it or read someone else's test drive.
By the way, not only do I have an Audi, my wife has a Lexus. The car is great, but it's just an RX330. There are faster Lexuses out there.
The battle that may heat up over time could be the German diesel vs. the Japanese hybrid.
Gotta go. Enjoy the Super Bowl, gents.
TagMan
Well I’m not an auto designer who is up on the lingo but Google works wonders, so here we stand enlightened
DLO = Daylight Opening. It’s a friggin’ window plain and simple.
http://www.cardesignonline.com/miscellany/terminology.php
In the case of the LS460 I believe he’s referring to what is also known as the Hoffmeister kink in BMWs. However the latter is the fillet in the C-column while the window is the yin-yang, or male-female complement. Anyway, I guess he sees the “Y” shape of a slingshot, hence “slingshot DLO”. For my taste the description is too verbose. I would call it either the kink or fillet and be done with it. Now that we all know what DLO means are we going to be using it around here? I hope not. “Window” should suffice. I’d like to know the etymology of jargon. Some other terms that never made sense to me are “bonnet” and “rocker panel”.
Yeah, I’ve been to that website and I guess it’s kind of interesting but I don’t think it is revealing in any way. As a designer I usually find critique by designers to be boring (haha). I don’t want to hear their analysis, I’d rather see their portfolios. Frankly, I’m more interested in the input of the end user such as we find in these forums. I’m a person of few words at work when it comes to the subject of work. I always tell people if I have to explain a design, it’s not really cutting it. I present and let people’s reactions tell the story. If I find myself explaining a design it’s because I know it is struggling—that’s when the ability to BS comes in handy, something I avoid like the plague and leave to the loquacious suits as I cringe. And this is Chris Bangle at his best. Flame surfacing is a specious term (bs) invented by Bangle to convince people to buy into what is already done and is too late to change. It’s the noise and hype in the auditorium at the high school football rally.
Rah rah BMW, bless you Saint Bangle, you had the courage boldly go where... rasberries. In my opinion BMWs are selling in spite of the styling, not because of it. It’s the new engines, the free maintenance, the good lease deals, the equally ugly styling from some of its competitors, brand loyalty, and of course its reputation as a driver’s car that move BMWs.
I saw the S yesterday. I found the interior to be more elegant than the 7. The dash has the low landscape orientation that I prefer in addition to what I perceive as an art deco demeanor and finer details than the 7 in spite of bearing some resemblance. The instrumentation graphics are minimal and super clear, suits my aging eyes. However that steering wheel is ugly. I was really impressed by the firmness of the seats which seem to complement what I’ve read about the handling. I’m thinking this car goes head to head with the 7 as a sport barge. Even the back seats are hard. Could MB lose some business here because the car is too firm? I really see the LS vs the Germans as apples and oranges. The new LS will do well, so will the German cars. No change in opinion of the exterior. Those fenders suck but people will get used to them. I think MB indicts themselves by sending black launch cars. Indeed, black camouflages the bulges. I do like the rear though.
Merc, I might do a critique on all Aston styling in one shot since they’re similar. All have sleek curvaceous exterior lines, all have ugly butts, all have heavy-handed interiors that appear to be designed by Harry the handyman. Hmm, that about sums it up—they’re a tale of two cities. I really think they got lazy in the design stage, were derelict in completing the total packages regardless of their redeeming qualities.
;-)
You misbehave a lot. I have already clearly explained the factors we took into account. And they fit with acceleration times for over 90% of the car models. If you do not agree and others do not agree thats okay, may be mathematical modeling is not for you.
I have been so nice to you in the past I hope you reciprocate too.
I do not agree with C&D results and that is the end of it. No more agruments.
On the side note, if you fit power to weight ratio and acceleration times of audi A8 it perfectly fits the linear dependence. Apparently audi correctly stated their test results and did not become over optimistic.
4288 lbs/335 hp. = 12.8 , acceleration: 6.4 secs.
From mathematical model: 6.5 secs.
From Audi: 6.3 secs.
All three values match closely.
Similarly, A8 W12: 4729 lbs/ 450 hp = 5.25 secs
Math model : 5.2 secs
Audi's published data: 5.0 secs
All values match closely. There are no 1 sec or more differences between theory and empirical results.
I can't see people going for a car that is as ugly as has been stated above no matter how enticing the deals or how wonderful the car drives.
People are very style conscious and will not get a car they perceive is embarrassing to be seen in. I for sure wouldn't.
Cases in point-the endless discussions on style on Edmunds and the anticipation of seeing all the new models at the auto show.
Why do all the folks attend? They can't drive any of the vehicles. It's for style, baby!
Style is a very important factor and one can't down play it as if people are buying the 5 series in spite of Chris Bangle's design.
Of course, when the 5 series is up 42.8% in one year, you must give some credit to Chris Bangle, as playing a significant role in this success story, like it or not.
And if you refuse to admit it, I believe the word is "raspberries."
In fact, the linearity can be disproved by simply switching a final-drive cog in an existing car . . . no hp change, almost no weight change, but 0-60 will be drasticly different.